RIC vs Mayo Clinic

[TheRisingSon]

Hey guys - kind of last minute, but as I sort out the top of my rank list I wanted your (understandably subjective) thoughts on the two programs. I understand both are very good - but what are the things that separate them?
Obviously RIC commands the top ranking, but I'm not sure I really get why - I thought some other programs where just as impressive. Is the fact it is so well established reason enough to go there? It sounds like the hands on experience outside of inpatient is minimal, e.g. pain injections, MSK US, etc.
Mayo clinic seemed like a great place to train, outside of being in Rochester. Then again I didn't get a great idea of what that town was like - are there bars, coffee shops.. "city-esque" places to hang out? It almost sounded as if the place shuts down during the snow, outside of tunnel connections.

Again, just asking for opinions, I understand there is no one "answer".

Thanks a lot!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DOctorJay]

what do you see yourself doing when you finish residency? fellowship, straight into private practice, academics?

 

[specepic]

RIC- in house call, if you want to do inpt as a career, fine. high cost of living. Great reputation in rehab world, but John Q public or job after training hosp admin has no clue who they are.

Mayo- Roch is cold as a witches t_t. Home call and out pt emphasis. low cost of living. everyone knows where you trained by the name and it is marketable in itself

Great training both places I suspect. Dont rank RIC #1 b/c of some US news and world report BS, rank it where it works for you

 

[RUOkie]

If they are your #1 and #2 rank the one you felt better about.

Training at either place will prepare you for the real world, and put you at the top of the list of almost any fellowship around.

 

[MedBronc23]

Hey guys - kind of last minute, but as I sort out the top of my rank list I wanted your (understandably subjective) thoughts on the two programs. I understand both are very good - but what are the things that separate them?
Obviously RIC commands the top ranking, but I'm not sure I really get why - I thought some other programs where just as impressive. Is the fact it is so well established reason enough to go there? It sounds like the hands on experience outside of inpatient is minimal, e.g. pain injections, MSK US, etc.
Mayo clinic seemed like a great place to train, outside of being in Rochester. Then again I didn't get a great idea of what that town was like - are there bars, coffee shops.. "city-esque" places to hang out? It almost sounded as if the place shuts down during the snow, outside of tunnel connections.

Again, just asking for opinions, I understand there is no one "answer".

Thanks a lot!

Biased, just rank mayo 1. In all seriousness RUokie DOctorJay and Specepic are all right rank the program you like the best, feels right, provides best chance to do what you want in future.

I turned down my RIC interview when I applied because living in Urban Chicago and doing in-house call did not sound super appealing at that time, however, I regret not seeing what the RIC residency had to offer as I know it earns its reputation based on discussion with RIC residents and faculty at conferences etc. However, I have nothing to base my comments on but others opinions, reputation, and word of mouth throughout PM&R field.

Here is what I can tell you I think differentiates the programs most

1. CALL: Mayo-home inpatient call/consult weekend call. RIC- in house call. For me this was a no brainer win for mayo but depends on personal preference

2. INPATIENT: RIC- takes the win in most peoples minds. Model center for SCI and Brain. Great reputation for inpatient rehab care across all spectrums of inpatient and hospital based rehab care. Always number one in US News and world report for rehab hospital, albeit this may be misleading as This ranking is based on a multi-physician vote/survey without metrics on performance or outcomes (akin to all-star vote ballot in sports). Still tough to argue with public opinion.

Mayo- model brain center. Most nontraumatic SCI in nation (metabolic, vascular, cancer) etc. not a lot of traumas given surrounding rural MN, IA, Dakotas, WI (not your typical urban knife and gun club feeding in traumatic cords). Very good amputee training. Good cancer and complex medical rehab training. If you like zebras not horses than you will like inpatient here.

Supportive staff invested in teaching and allowing residents appropriate autonomy for practice on an inpatient rehab unit that is ranked consistently top 5-6 in us news and world (for what it's worth) can also cover inpatient rehab in AZ and FL sites for different experiences

3. Outpatient: again note bias, but I think many agree the best or comparative best outpatient PM&R training in the country. See previous posts. Known for dedicated MSK Ultrasound curriculum. Anatomy and physical exam curriculum. 6 months of dedicated EMG and neurophysiology training by some of best electro diagnosticians (Neuro and PM&R) in world. Opportunities to do Pain/interventional spine rotations at Minnesota Florida and Arizona with ample opportunities for axial spine procedures. Dedicated hand clinic rotation. Exposure and clinical hands on experience with US diagnostics and interventions in pain sports MSK clinics peds EMG...basically all pmr disciplines have staff trained in using ultrasound with exception of Amputee providers.

You may find equal excellence in outpatient Physiatry training but probably not better.

RIC- surely you will see all of PM&R here as well including US.I know they have excellent spine center and interventional spine training. Their sports and spine fellowship recently was ACGME accredited as PM&R Sports. However, from what I have heard from our residents interviewing there is that remains focused on spine with less pure sports exposure/training than other programs. I can't comment further but perhaps RIC residents fellows or alumni could.

4. Location: Rural/suburban Minnesota (plus few months in metro Scottsdale and Jacksonville) and vs. Urban Chicago

Personally this was also a no brainer having lived in smaller cities in mountain west mid west my whole life. Rochester is probably one of the nicest towns its size in country. Reasonable cost of living as most residents can buy a house or rent nice apt condo ect. Centralized location for rotations and one integrated EMR in all hospitals and clinics in Minnesota (home base). Biggest problem incoming residents find is job opportunities for spouse or significant other given size of Rochester and economy based mostly on healthcare (mayo and county hospital), education ( multiple small universities colleges and local schools) and technology (IBM). Nice thing is very close to twin cities for restaurants sports shows nightlife venues big city shopping. There is enough in Rochester to keep single people happy and busy plus ideal place for marrieds and families. Lots of great restaurants and fun events ( google social ice and Thursdays on 1st for examples) that really give the city personality and keep locals and patient visitors from across the globe well fed and entertained.

RIC- hard to compete with the wealth of jobs entertainment and Cosmo atmosphere of second city. But have to deal with all the negatives of urban sprawl as well, which for me as a married resident with family plans was not ideal. If I was single probably would have taken long hard look. I feel like my resident salary goes much father in Rochester than would in Chicago.

PM me if their is anything else.

Both great programs. Tough choice. No place is perfect but you can find the ideal fit for you if you look hard enough.

 

[padresp]

I can't comment on Mayo, and it looks like MedBronc has that covered anyway.

However, for RIC, in no particular order:
- Downtown Chicago. Beautiful area, expensive, but everyone (even those with families) doesn't have problems making ends meet. Northwestern pays relatively well for residents. Unlimited things to do and people to meet. Many residents, myself included, get by just fine without owning a car (and preferring it).
- Central location. All but a few months are located in the same area so you don't have to commute far. Most people don't care, but it was very important to me. Residency is very time-intensive, and the choice of spending an hour a day commuting vs working out or seeing my family was important.
- Inpatient. You see everything. Really no downsides to the inpatient exposure. It can be a bit daunting due to the complexity of some of the patients, but everyone will tell you they are well-trained at the end of it.
- Overnight call. Only physician in the hospital. Again, sounds really daunting, but works out very well and you have relatively few calls due to the high number of residents. I personally preferred home call prior to residency but having done overnight call prefer it now (because you get the post-call day).
- Prosthetics/Orthotics. Again, you see everything.
- People. I personally had this near the top of my priorities. I was expecting a haughty, arrogant bunch, but did not see it when I actually interviewed there. The residents are great, and the attendings are as well.
- Sports/Spine. Access to a lot of this if you want. Definitely not as much event coverage as I hear other places get, but tons of outpatient sports AND spine exposure if that's your interest. Amazing teachers at the sports & spine center. The fellows that they get every year are fantastic, as are the incoming two this year. Chicago Marathon, Chicago Tri coverage, lots of local races for the residents, and the fellows are involved in other sports coverage; I would assume if you were interested as a resident, you would likely be able to join if you asked, though I can't vouch for that.
- Peds. 2 months inpatient during PGY-3 year. 2 residents covering a pediatric floor. Exposure to lots of different pathologies.
- EMG. Lots of months at RIC, the VA, and Northwestern. There used to be difficulty getting numbers, but is apparently not a problem anymore after aligning with the VA.
- Pain. There is a chronic pain center (which is an absolutely amazing model) and lots of acute (well, as acute as rehab gets) pain exposure, and a fellowship.
- Outpatient exposure. Tons of general, SCI, stroke, TBI, peds, etc.
- MSK ultrasound. Definitely less than Mayo. You can do electives during your 3rd and 4th years. RIC definitely front-loads the residency with inpatient first.
- Getting a job. RIC has the largest alumni network, which is huge for finding a job later on. If you say you went to RIC or Mayo, there won't be much of a difference as they're both great programs. If you're looking to do a fellowship, again, won't make much of a difference between those two. I can't tell you how many random people I've met at conferences, of all ages, who say "I went to RIC!"

From what I have heard of Mayo, you can't go wrong (really in any specialty). I think the same can be said for RIC. The reason I ended up choosing it was because it really doesn't have a weak spot. I remember one of the chairs at a different department saying, "RIC, Kessler, and UW never graduate a weak resident." That stuck with me. I thought I wanted to do Sports eventually, but I wasn't sure, so I wanted to make sure I was trained well in everything.

PM me if you have any questions as well.

 

[RooAgg14]

Thank you so much for all the info -- very helpful!

- Sports/Spine. Access to a lot of this if you want. Definitely not as much event coverage as I hear other places get, but tons of outpatient sports AND spine exposure if that's your interest. Amazing teachers at the sports & spine center. The fellows that they get every year are fantastic, as are the incoming two this year. Chicago Marathon, Chicago Tri coverage, lots of local races for the residents, and the fellows are involved in other sports coverage; I would assume if you were interested as a resident, you would likely be able to join if you asked, though I can't vouch for that.

Can you please expand on the hands-on experience at the sports and spine center. I know there is a good amount of peripheral joint injection exposure, but do residents actually get to perform basic LESI? Any PRP exposure?

 

[MedBronc23]

Thank you so much for all the info -- very helpful!



Can you please expand on the hands-on experience at the sports and spine center. I know there is a good amount of peripheral joint injection exposure, but do residents actually get to perform basic LESI? Any PRP exposure?

Hands on: This is my biggest question about the sports and spine center and RIC residency is that besides EMGs( which you have to do to complete residency) that the fellows and staff do most of the other procedures ( joint injections, spine injections, RFA, etc) with residents often observing. This was at least what I heard from two prior trained RIC sports and spine fellows who mentored me in PM&R during med school. Not sure if true but definitely played into my decision not to interview there and other programs I heard had a " fellow first" mentality to procedures.

I can tell you firsthand at Mayo you get to touch an US and have Fluoro experience in your first year. You learn on your peers and cadavers in anatomy lab first, so by end of PGY-2 year to beginning of PGY-3 year you are doing most injections (including LESI), except some high level cervical spine stuff (unless you are good) on real patients, with fellows and staff observing and instructing. As senior level resident (3-4 year) you can do US injections in continuity clinic ad lib and very autonomous with injections in Sports MSK Pain Hand clinics. Our Peds and hand providers also get g2 residents injections early on if you do outpatient rotations and competency with Botox in kids and US guided hand wrist and elbow injections. Yes and you will get exposure to PRP injections from our sports providers.

I don't lie when I tell people one of my biggest stresses is having time to log all my procedures. It's a nice problem to have especially with good staff teaching you how to do right way for right indications not just being a needle jockey without a brain.

Sports coverage: Also, if you want to do sports or are interested, mayo provides really great opportunities. You can cover your own high school hockey or football team with athletic training staff as team physician. We also cover multiple marathons and running events, USA hockey championships, semi pro hockey, college football and do pre participation physicals for all area HS athletes.

Alumni Networks: Additionally one cold argue that RIC has the largest PM&R alumni network but that Mayo has one of the the overall largest physician alumni networks across specialities. Similar to Harvard Hopkins Stanford Duke and other big name quaternary medical centers in the nation. I think most people in PMR recognize RICs brand as one of excellence which likely does help their graduates job placement, but outside of PM&R every hospital administrator clinic recruiter and physicians across specialities know Mayo.

" RIC Kessler and UW never graduate a weak resident": To comment on padres post, I would say that any resident graduating from the super 6 programs ( mayo Spaulding Kessler Washington RIC Baylor/UTHouston) and many other strong programs with historically strong PM&R depts ( Colorado Michigan Ohio st. Stanford RUSK Temple Jeff VCU to name a few) probably have few weaknesses in PM&R knowledge base/ training. However I think it's dangerous/naive to think that because you say train at Washington Kessler and RIC you will have no weaknesses in your training, because I can tell you these residents will have less experience with MSK US than their peers at Mayo. Just like a Mayo resident will have less exposure to burn rehab and traumatic SCI than a Kessler or RIC resident. Each program has its strengths and flaws..with some of the bigger named programs may be "exposing" their residents to the entire breadth of the field but sometimes with limited observation or hands on demo to some hands-on areas in PM&R like MSK US Botox Baclofen pumps or interventional spine procedures.

In regards to this post. I will leave you with a quote. " Never say never, only fools and mathematicians deal in absolutes."

Something to think about, again not a war between RIC and Mayo. Two storied training sites along with many others. Just hopefully perspective from this camp

 

[specepic]

Mayo won me over on interview day. It was clear that all interviewers had read my app/essay very thoroughly and asked educated questions about same. Maybe RIC was having an off day/year but when I interviewed there it was the opposite. Several interviewers were opening my file for the first time as I entered the room. I guess it was ego but that pissed my off. I was given the sense of "if we take you you are lucky" (while true is a bit of a turn off), whereas Mayo left me with "if we get you we are lucky".

This thread has the potential to turn into a Mayo vs RIC so let me say that I would have been very lucky to train at RIC and I imagine the inpt experience, burn, amputee training is better there. I can't comment on outpt, it would great if we can get some RIC res's on here to comment on procedure numbers, etc.

If you are a star PMR app and can choose b/t programs I would offer:

- you are young and single and like inpt : RIC
- you have kids and like US/pain/sports/spine: Mayo
- mix of above: tough call

any med student would do very well to train at the top teir programs and regardless of porgram --- it is what you make of it! I can tell you we had a weak resident or two at Mayo, folks who prob had great usmle and letters but did not gel with the team. all programs have weak residents, anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something

 

[MedBronc23]

Mayo won me over on interview day. It was clear that all interviewers had read my app/essay very thoroughly and asked educated questions about same. Maybe RIC was having an off day/year but when I interviewed there it was the opposite. Several interviewers were opening my file for the first time as I entered the room. I guess it was ego but that pissed my off. I was given the sense of "if we take you you are lucky" (while true is a bit of a turn off), whereas Mayo left me with "if we get you we are lucky".

This thread has the potential to turn into a Mayo vs RIC so let me say that I would have been very lucky to train at RIC and I imagine the inpt experience, burn, amputee training is better there. I can't comment on outpt, it would great if we can get some RIC res's on here to comment on procedure numbers, etc.

If you are a star PMR app and can choose b/t programs I would offer:

- you are young and single and like inpt : RIC
- you have kids and like US/pain/sports/spine: Mayo
- mix of above: tough call

any med student would do very well to train at the top teir programs and regardless of porgram --- it is what you make of it! I can tell you we had a weak resident or two at Mayo, folks who prob had great usmle and letters but did not gel with the team. all programs have weak residents, anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something

Gospel truth. Nice that you could say in three paragraphs what I tried to say in multiple.

 

[padresp]

In regards to this post. I will leave you with a quote. "Never say never, only fools and mathematicians deal in absolutes."

I'm just passing on what someone else said. That was not me. I just said that it resonated with me.

With regards to hands-on sports experience at RIC, I have done several epidural injections and peripheral injections during my PGY-3 year at the Sports & Spine Center. I have only worked with attendings. There are also other clinics we rotate through apart from the Sports & Spine Center that allow for a lot more injections (the fellows do not rotate there). I can't speak to how past fellows/residents were trained. PGY-4 year has a ton of elective time, which is great because you can focus on your interests, study for boards, and focus on finding your fellowship/job.

One other thing to clarify, I have kids and a wife and live in downtown Chicago. Can't beat it.

The bottom line is: choose the residency program that fits you best. I have no complaints with RIC. I hope this thread isn't being misconstrued as a fight; we're just trying to give you as much information as possible from both sides. Keep the questions coming.

 

[Polynikes]

When I interviewed at RIC, my day was so bad that I canceled the rest of my interviews. I already knew I wanted Emory,and that day at RIC cemented it for me. My entire day was weird. Can't explain it, but every conversation I had was painful. I may have been burned out from interviewing, but all I wanted to do was leave. I ranked 8 programs, and RIC was 6th. You have to go where you are happy. Period.

 

[MedBronc23]

I'm just passing on what someone else said. That was not me. I just said that it resonated with me.

With regards to hands-on sports experience at RIC, I have done several epidural injections and peripheral injections during my PGY-3 year at the Sports & Spine Center. I have only worked with attendings. There are also other clinics we rotate through apart from the Sports & Spine Center that allow for a lot more injections (the fellows do not rotate there). I can't speak to how past fellows/residents were trained. PGY-4 year has a ton of elective time, which is great because you can focus on your interests, study for boards, and focus on finding your fellowship/job.

One other thing to clarify, I have kids and a wife and live in downtown Chicago. Can't beat it.

The bottom line is: choose the residency program that fits you best. I have no complaints with RIC. I hope this thread isn't being misconstrued as a fight; we're just trying to give you as much information as possible from both sides. Keep the questions coming.

Padres
Thanks for clarification. Glad to hear you guys are getting some good needle time. I think you guys have your inpatient more front loaded and some awesome flexibility with electives as seniors.

I was simply commenting on what that person said to you about washington, RIC, and Kessler, understanding that it was likely not your opinion. I just strongly disagree with that perception as a whole, regardless of who someone perceives as strong programs or not.

Good physicians/physiatrists make the most out their training regardless if it's a top place known for churning out top physiatrists or a smaller, lesser known program. It's good to consider all the things posted, but ultimately you make your path by using the resources of your residency program. You are not just a good physiatrist simply by training at a top program.