Rise and Fall of Competitiveness in specialties

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libertyyne

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Can someone explain how this works,
Is it due to attitudes of medical students?
Generational differences in what people want in terms of hours?
Job Market and reimbursement fluctuations? Governmental intervention?
What causes Gas and DR to be super competitive a few years ago and now seem fairly straight forward to match into.
There seems to be a trend towards people wanting pysch and PM&R now, how do people figure out job opportunities for those fields will be good by the time they are done with residency vs other specialties?

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Can someone explain how this works,
Is it due to attitudes of medical students?
Generational differences in what people want in terms of hours?
Job Market and reimbursement fluctuations? Governmental intervention?
What causes Gas and DR to be super competitive a few years ago and now seem fairly straight forward to match into.
There seems to be a trend towards people wanting pysch and PM&R now, how do people figure out job opportunities for those fields will be good by the time they are done with residency vs other specialties?

Following the money is a good way to start. Lower reimbursements, poorer job market, and prestige play a large part in these fluctuations.
 
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Following the money is a good way to start. Lower reimbursements, poorer job market, and prestige play a large part in these fluctuations.
Are there particular sources people look at for researching the money and reimbursement prospects?
 
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Are there particular sources people look at for researching the money and reimbursement prospects?
Look up MGMA data, someone posted it on the plastic subforums awhile ago.
 
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Following the money is a good way to start. Lower reimbursements, poorer job market, and prestige play a large part in these fluctuations.

Holy crap! People respond to economic incentives! Now tell policymakers to stop trying to force people into primary care.
 
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Considering Gas and Rad have horrible job markets, it is not a surprise. Would you rather live in Chicago/LA/Seattle as an internist making 250K or as a Anesthesiologist in some cow farm Wisconsin making 350K?
 
Considering Gas and Rad have horrible job markets, it is not a surprise. Would you rather live in Chicago/LA/Seattle as an internist making 250K or as a Anesthesiologist in some cow farm Wisconsin making 350K?

id rather the cow farm, especially living like a cash money millionaire on 350 in the sticks. but id be concerned about being replaced by a machine or a crna or earning 200k/yr in gas
 
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There's a lot more factors at play. From my understanding, Rads opened a ton of community programs and when applications decreased, it appears to be to match into, but even the half-decent programs are still moderately competitive.

For Gas, people are scared of CRNAs, but not just that, I believe Gas has a big problem with contract management groups (CMGs) similar to what EM is currently going through, i.e., all the private/democratic group contracts are being bought out or not renewed by the hospital and given to the CMGs. CMGs turnaround any pay the physicians pennies compared to what they were paid before.
 
Considering Gas and Rad have horrible job markets, it is not a surprise. Would you rather live in Chicago/LA/Seattle as an internist making 250K or as a Anesthesiologist in some cow farm Wisconsin making 350K?
Cow farm 10 times out of 10. Cows are very compliant patients and rarely litigate.
 
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There's a lot more factors at play. From my understanding, Rads opened a ton of community programs and when applications decreased, it appears to be to match into, but even the half-decent programs are still moderately competitive.

For Gas, people are scared of CRNAs, but not just that, I believe Gas has a big problem with contract management groups (CMGs) similar to what EM is currently going through, i.e., all the private/democratic group contracts are being bought out or not renewed by the hospital and given to the CMGs. CMGs turnaround any pay the physicians pennies compared to what they were paid before.
Yup, AMGs, CRNAs... basically gas docs fear acronyms

edit: meant AMCs (anesthesia management companies). AMG isn't a thing in medicine far as I know... they do make a damn fine Merc engine tho
 
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Lol this was my thought also ^
 
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Is there a way to get average age/ median age of physicans in a speciality to figure out what portion will have retired by then? or is this a fools errand?
 
Fine. Would you rather be an internist making 250K in South Beach Miami, or 400K in East St. Louis living next to _ _ _ _ _ _ s?

Or you could work in East St. Louis and live in one of the nice MO suburbs...I really don't get why people think the only options are to live in some "amazing metropolis" or live in a ghetto/Nowhere Kansas. Are people really that oblivious to different living environments?
 
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St. Louis , Cow Farm and then this:
RsI9t.gif

And retire early to south beach.
 
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Really though, I'm basically a ****ing child and could live in the City Museum in St. Louis, that place is awesome.
 
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There is a difference between St. Louis, MO and East St. Louis, Illinois. Let's just say you don't want to drive down the streets of East St.Louis at night unless you are in a heavily armored tank.
 
There is a difference between St. Louis, MO and East St. Louis, Illinois. Let's just say you don't want to drive down the streets of East St.Louis at night unless you are in a heavily armored tank.
150 k differential will buy an armoured vehicle from the government surplus.plus can't be worse then Baltimore.
 
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Different cohorts/generations value different things, different specialties seem to offer different things at different times. Throw in a healthy dose of the "desiring what other people find desirable" cycle, and you're bound to have alternating desirability of various specialties.
 
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Are we seriously letting this conversation be OK? @WedgeDawg ?
Please understand that any reported posts are scrutinized by multiple members of the moderation staff before any actions are taken. While I cannot comment on this specific user, there are many things that may be happening behind the scenes when you see no change.

1) disciplinary action was taken that is not evident
2) no action was deemed necessary
3) discussion is ongoing

Please keep it professional in this thread.
 
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Please understand that any reported posts are scrutinized by multiple members of the moderation staff before any actions are taken. While I cannot comment on this specific user, there are many things that may be happening behind the scenes when you see no change.

1) disciplinary action was taken that is not evident
2) no action was deemed necessary
3) discussion is ongoing

Please keep it professional in this thread.

So then yes, we ARE letting racial epithets sit in plain sight on this public forum. Great look SDN.
 
Different cohorts/generations value different things, different specialties seem to offer different things at different times. Throw in a healthy dose of the "desiring what other people find desirable" cycle, and you're bound to have alternating desirability of various specialties.
I know reminds me of a a bubble , especially when people look to what others find desirable.
 
Or you could work in East St. Louis and live in one of the nice MO suburbs...I really don't get why people think the only options are to live in some "amazing metropolis" or live in a ghetto/Nowhere Kansas. Are people really that oblivious to different living environments?

bro the only thing outside of chicago/LA/NYC is barren wasteland/ghetto, everyone knows this
 
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bro the only thing outside of chicago/LA/NYC is barren wasteland/ghetto, everyone knows this

Yeah you can ether work in the capital and treat the elite of society or you can work on Tatooine and treat the sand people. Your choice....
 
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Also just to add to dyachei's post, please just report posts and don't tag a single mod. The mod staff consists of busy professionals and just because you tag a specific mod doesn't mean they're going to be 1) immediately available or 2) exclusively the one to deal with the reported issue.

Thanks
 
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Yes, reprimand me for being upset about multiple people posting allusions to the N word. Great o_O


EDIT: I do see that the ringleader has since been banned from SDN. Thanks and good riddance.
 
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The whole rise and fall of specialities is real and happens all the time. Some of the reasons hashed out on here are because of the differences in the generation of students graduating medical school. If you guys read some of the busier sub forums (e.g., gas), you'll notice that lots of new grads are looking to get into jobs that offer most weekends and nights off whereas a lot of the current/older anesthesiologists left residency with a 'guns a blazing' attitude and were willing to put in way more than a typical 40 hr work week. There isn't anything wrong with either approach, but these changes in the pool of newly trained docs don't just start post-residency but also play a big role in determining what field these MS3/4s eventually decide to even pursue. 30 years ago, general surgery was a tougher match, and up until the last few years, as long as a US MD had a pulse and a willingness to work 80+ hours, with everything else being even slightly below average, they'd match nearly all the time.

Radiology went from being a field where the top students sought to match into to being an almost guaranteed match for most applicants of late. One of the doctors I know well explained how she and a few of her friends all graduated in the top 10% of her class--back when class rank was a big deal--and that the #1 student out of 200ish went into rads. More community programs have opened and the fear of over saturation have driven down competitiveness. People on SDN were shocked at the last charting outcomes, and just by glancing at the data superfluously, it showed that the pool of students that applied to Psych had a tougher time of matching than those applying to Rads. That would have been absurd to consider 15 years ago.

It's all to be taken with a grain of salt, but at the end of the day, just realize that the real-world isn't like med school. The sooner you get out of the med school bubble, you realize that no one really stops in the hallway of hospitals to get 5 minutes with any of the IR docs or Rad Oncs, albeit these fields are hyper-competitive. Any student should just do their best in class/boards/research/etc to have options at the end of the day. It's sad to think that some nsurg residents decide to leave the field during residency after working so hard to get in. I think I've read reports where attrition rates are in the 15-20% range and GS is also around there. Choosing a specialty is a huge decision and letting this idea of wanting to be perceived as 'elite' by peers isn't a good idea. By and large, competitiveness and its perception is prone to fluctuate, with surgical subspecialties usually being the toughest to match into along with derm. But, even this is a construct of supply vs demand. If there were only 200 spots to match into FM, the average board score would be 240+, just as is the case with derm, ENT, nsurg, and naturally, it's perceived appeal would go way up.

Find the field where you could see yourself working for the next 30 years. It's far more important to enjoy the work you do than to be caught up in some sort of rat race your whole life where you get off on the idea of being special for matching in whatever specialty was hot in the year 20xx.
 
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The whole rise and fall of specialities is real and happens all the time. Some of the reasons hashed out on here are because of the differences in the generation of students graduating medical school. If you guys read some of the busier sub forums (e.g., gas), you'll notice that lots of new grads are looking to get into jobs that offer most weekends and nights off whereas a lot of the current/older anesthesiologists left residency with a 'guns a blazing' attitude and were willing to put in way more than a typical 40 hr work week. There isn't anything wrong with either approach, but these changes in the pool of newly trained docs don't just start post-residency but also play a big role in determining what field these MS3/4s eventually decide to even pursue. 30 years ago, general surgery was a tougher match, and up until the last few years, as long as a US MD had a pulse and a willingness to work 80+ hours, with everything else being even slightly below average, they'd match nearly all the time.

Radiology went from being a field where the top students sought to match into to being an almost guaranteed match for most applicants of late. One of the doctors I know well explained how she and a few of her friends all graduated in the top 10% of her class--back when class rank was a big deal--and that the #1 student out of 200ish went into rads. More community programs have opened and the fear of over saturation have driven down competitiveness. People on SDN were shocked at the last charting outcomes, and just by glancing at the data superfluously, it showed that the pool of students that applied to Psych had a tougher time of matching than those applying to Rads. That would have been absurd to consider 15 years ago.

It's all to be taken with a grain of salt, but at the end of the day, just realize that the real-world isn't like med school. The sooner you get out of the med school bubble, you realize that no one really stops in the hallway of hospitals to get 5 minutes with any of the IR docs or Rad Oncs, albeit these fields are hyper-competitive. Any student should just do their best in class/boards/research/etc to have options at the end of the day. It's sad to think that some nsurg residents decide to leave the field during residency after working so hard to get in. I think I've read reports where attrition rates are in the 15-20% range and GS is also around there. Choosing a specialty is a huge decision and letting this idea of wanting to be perceived as 'elite' by peers isn't a good idea. By and large, competitiveness and its perception is prone to fluctuate, with surgical subspecialties usually being the toughest to match into along with derm. But, even this is a construct of supply vs demand. If there were only 200 spots to match into FM, the average board score would be 240+, just as is the case with derm, ENT, nsurg, and naturally, it's perceived appeal would go way up.

Find the field where you could see yourself working for the next 30 years. It's far more important to enjoy the work you do than to be caught up in some sort of rat race your whole life where you get off on the idea of being special for matching in whatever specialty was hot in the year 20xx.
And even further back in the history of radiology it was a totally non competitive specialty as your tools were fluoroscopy, radiographs, and early angiography. Then comes CT and subsequently MRI which boost earning and suddenly it's the hottest specialty. Things wax and wane.
 
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And even further back in the history of radiology it was a totally non competitive specialty as your tools were fluoroscopy, radiographs, and early angiography. Then comes CT and subsequently MRI which boost earning and suddenly it's the hottest specialty. Things wax and wane.

And wasn't the residency also 3 years in length back in those days?
 
The whole rise and fall of specialities is real and happens all the time. Some of the reasons hashed out on here are because of the differences in the generation of students graduating medical school. If you guys read some of the busier sub forums (e.g., gas), you'll notice that lots of new grads are looking to get into jobs that offer most weekends and nights off whereas a lot of the current/older anesthesiologists left residency with a 'guns a blazing' attitude and were willing to put in way more than a typical 40 hr work week. There isn't anything wrong with either approach, but these changes in the pool of newly trained docs don't just start post-residency but also play a big role in determining what field these MS3/4s eventually decide to even pursue. 30 years ago, general surgery was a tougher match, and up until the last few years, as long as a US MD had a pulse and a willingness to work 80+ hours, with everything else being even slightly below average, they'd match nearly all the time.

Radiology went from being a field where the top students sought to match into to being an almost guaranteed match for most applicants of late. One of the doctors I know well explained how she and a few of her friends all graduated in the top 10% of her class--back when class rank was a big deal--and that the #1 student out of 200ish went into rads. More community programs have opened and the fear of over saturation have driven down competitiveness. People on SDN were shocked at the last charting outcomes, and just by glancing at the data superfluously, it showed that the pool of students that applied to Psych had a tougher time of matching than those applying to Rads. That would have been absurd to consider 15 years ago.

It's all to be taken with a grain of salt, but at the end of the day, just realize that the real-world isn't like med school. The sooner you get out of the med school bubble, you realize that no one really stops in the hallway of hospitals to get 5 minutes with any of the IR docs or Rad Oncs, albeit these fields are hyper-competitive. Any student should just do their best in class/boards/research/etc to have options at the end of the day. It's sad to think that some nsurg residents decide to leave the field during residency after working so hard to get in. I think I've read reports where attrition rates are in the 15-20% range and GS is also around there. Choosing a specialty is a huge decision and letting this idea of wanting to be perceived as 'elite' by peers isn't a good idea. By and large, competitiveness and its perception is prone to fluctuate, with surgical subspecialties usually being the toughest to match into along with derm. But, even this is a construct of supply vs demand. If there were only 200 spots to match into FM, the average board score would be 240+, just as is the case with derm, ENT, nsurg, and naturally, it's perceived appeal would go way up.

Find the field where you could see yourself working for the next 30 years. It's far more important to enjoy the work you do than to be caught up in some sort of rat race your whole life where you get off on the idea of being special for matching in whatever specialty was hot in the year 20xx.
Solid advice for the kids. Do what you love, or in the case of medicine, what you can somewhat tolerate
 
Yes, reprimand me for being upset about multiple people posting allusions to the N word. Great o_O


EDIT: I do see that the ringleader has since been banned from SDN. Thanks and good riddance.

Chilllll outtttt mannnnnnnnn
 
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Or you could work in East St. Louis and live in one of the nice MO suburbs...I really don't get why people think the only options are to live in some "amazing metropolis" or live in a ghetto/Nowhere Kansas. Are people really that oblivious to different living environments?
Yes.
 
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Step one complete training. Step 2 lengthen training to deter others. Step 3 hire NP's to do your incredibly simple technician job. Step 4 increase volume. Step 5 five profit.
 
Following the hive mind is a big component as well. For instance, anesthesia has a very bright future, yet a lot of people get all worked up about CRNAs and a supposed bad job market when the truth is actually very different.
 
Following the hive mind is a big component as well. For instance, anesthesia has a very bright future, yet a lot of people get all worked up about CRNAs and a supposed bad job market when the truth is actually very different.
Shhhh.
 
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Following the hive mind is a big component as well. For instance, anesthesia has a very bright future, yet a lot of people get all worked up about CRNAs and a supposed bad job market when the truth is actually very different.

What makes you think the future is bright? Asking because I am interested in this field but all I ever hear about is CRNAs and automation.
 
There is a lot of pessimism and uncertainty in some of the fields I have been looking at:
DR
IR
Anasthesia
Rad-onc

I wonder how much of that is genuine market conditions vs echo chamber hive mind seeping through on these boards.

How does one look to see that there is stability in your chosen field and that the pessimism is over blown.
 
There is a lot of pessimism and uncertainty in some of the fields I have been looking at:
DR
IR
Anasthesia
Rad-onc

I wonder how much of that is genuine market conditions vs echo chamber hive mind seeping through on these boards.

How does one look to see that there is stability in your chosen field and that the pessimism is over blown.

Out of curiosity what bad things have you heard about IR?

IR seems like one of the absolute best fields right now and likely in the future. Ever-increasing ground and scope of practice with new technologies, insanely high compensation, and little to no threat from midlevels. I've heard NIR can be saturated but I have yet to hear of IR guys struggling for work.
 
Out of curiosity what bad things have you heard about IR?

IR seems like one of the absolute best fields right now and likely in the future. Ever-increasing ground and scope of practice with new technologies, insanely high compensation, and little to no threat from midlevels. I've heard NIR can be saturated but I have yet to hear of IR guys struggling for work.
There is concern that with reimbursement claw back other specialties will keep patients to themselves rather then refer to IR, in speaking with a few physicans it seems like jobs are difficult to come by in the desirable locations , and indications for some of the bread and butter cases may become more limited. Also some ir folks don't have enough volume so they end up reading a whole bunch. At least this is the impression I got.
 
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