RISE exam*

[yaah]

So we got our RISE exam* scores back today, and in case anyone is interested - I will summarize below. The RISE is given annually to pathology residents, and while the test is scored, it is not used in any way as a credentialling exam (to my knowledge, anyway). It is used both by residents and their program to gauge performance level as well as improvement in all areas of pathology training. For programs, it can allow them to see if there are deficiencies in their program (like, if every resident fails hemepath). Similarly, for residents. More info here:

http://www.ascp.org/member/resident./RISE-05.asp

So, my score report is broken down by area - you get an overall numerical score, as well as the average score for residents at each year of training in that area (I presume for the whole country and not just your own program). It also lists the questions you got wrong and directs you to a reference which tells you what each question is emphasizing so that you can appropriately mediate your own glaring deficiencies. Many of the questions on the RISE exam* are fairly obscure.

The score is given as a numerical score, and not as a percentage or any kind of number that relates you to a certain percentile of test takers (i.e. no standard deviation).


*Note, of course, that typing the word "exam" after RISE (which stands for Resident In Service Exam) is highly redundant and unnecessary, but that the culture is such that people refer to said test as the "RISE exam" and not simply the RISE, which would of course be not only more correct but more efficient. Then again, we also note that efficiency is not always rewarded in these days of 500 page "friend of the court" legal briefs and 2000 page supreme court decisions which could be summed up in one sentence as "don't smoke pot."

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[deschutes]

In the spirit of efficiency, I have two words for you - "sticky FAQ"!

 

[bananaface]

I want to say the same thing to people who say "PCAT test".

 

[yaah]

In the spirit of efficiency, I have two words for you - "sticky FAQ"!

I can't believe it's been 90 minutes and no one asked me what I got on it yet.

 

[CameronFrye]

I can't believe it's been 90 minutes and no one asked me what I got on it yet.

If you do bad on the RISE exam can you still do dermpath?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

*sigh*

OK yaah. What did you get on the RISE exam*?

*Note, of course, that typing the word "exam" after RISE (which stands for Resident In Service Exam) is highly redundant and unnecessary, but that the culture is such that people refer to said test as the "RISE exam" and not simply the RISE, which would of course be not only more correct but more efficient. Then again, we also note that efficiency is not always rewarded in these days of 500 page "friend of the court" legal briefs and 2000 page supreme court decisions which could be summed up in one sentence as "don't smoke pot."

 

[xanthines]

It depends on how bad, and how much you improve thereafter. It's only used to assess your learning (supposedly), but if you do really badly you might have trouble with letters of recommendation in addition to any trouble you might have with board cert.

-X

If you do bad on the RISE exam can you still do dermpath?

 

[CameronFrye]

It depends on how bad, and how much you improve thereafter. It's only used to assess your learning (supposedly), but if you do really badly you might have trouble with letters of recommendation in addition to any trouble you might have with board cert.

-X

I was just messin with yaah. I know how much he loves to answer queries regarding dermpath.

On a more serious note, I haven't been able to find any rankings for path residency programs. Where can I find out this info? I want to go to a good program b/c I heard most pathologists were unemployed. Is Thomas Jefferson any good?

 

[beary]

On a more serious note, I haven't been able to find any rankings for path residency programs. Where can I find out this info? I want to go to a good program b/c I heard most pathologists were unemployed. Is Thomas Jefferson any good?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

That's too f*ckin' funny.

Classic!

 

[xanthines]

Oops. Shame on me!

-X

I was just messin with yaah. I know how much he loves to answer queries regarding dermpath.

On a more serious note, I haven't been able to find any rankings for path residency programs. Where can I find out this info? I want to go to a good program b/c I heard most pathologists were unemployed. Is Thomas Jefferson any good?

 

[gungho]

*sigh* (again)

*fingers tapping on table"

OK yaah. What did you get on the RISE exam*?

We're WAITING!!

 

[yaah]

Why should I post what I got on it? There are two possibilities

1) I did very well, and I will be accused of gloating, bragging, or whatever people want to say. In fact, it may actually be construed as offensive (don't laugh - people get offended when you post high scores!)

2) I did average or poorly, and people accuse me of either spending too much time here or being an overwrought blowhard who isn't cut out for the field.

Either way, it ain't worth it!

p.s. cameronfrye you forgot to ask about salary.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

yaah, you're a ******

 

[DarksideAllstar]

yaah, you're a ******

Are we talking Corky-like ******, or a ****** who cant function on his own?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Are we talking Corky-like ******, or a ****** who cant function on his own?

Dude, I'm Corky OK? Pick a different ****** celebrity for yaah.

He could be ******ed Cartman.

dehhhhhhhhhh

 

[yaah]

yaah, you're a ******

Oh come one you've been around here long enough to know that if I did post my score some 0+ poster would immediately chime in their 8 cents about how inappropriate it was.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Oh come one you've been around here long enough to know that if I did post my score some 0+ poster would immediately chime in their 8 cents about how inappropriate it was.

OK so I take it that you kicked ass on it.

Here, you get a cookie!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

you're spethial.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

your mom goes to college

 

[DarksideAllstar]

your mom goes to college

That cookie looked pretty ****ty. Maybe he could be Timmy?
Tim-tim-TIMMY.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Let's just say my score indicates I could probably sit for the boards and have a reasonable chance of passing.

Its so childish and inappropriate alluding to your score on an internet site. Sorry, not everyone can do as well as you. Plus, how do we know you aren't lying about this supposidely good RISE score? I want to you to scan a copy of it and prove it. Loser.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Or he could be Jimmy. See yaah isn't in a wheelchair (knock on wood). But he does use crutches. Plus, I saw one of the presentations he gave when I was still in Michigan. He kept saying after each slide, "What a t-t-terrific audience."

 

[beary]

That cookie looked pretty ****ty.

I thought that cookie looked absolutely fabulous!

Thanks Andy for giving me an intense cookie craving. I am trying to get on the road to go home and have a bunch of packing to do but now I have to go find a cookie.

 

[buddha belly]

I'll ask. What's the salary for dermatopath?

 

[buddha belly]

Question for Andy Milonakis or anyone. Is the brigham path program stronger than the mgh one, same, worse? What are the major differences (if there are any)?

Thanks a lot.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I thought that cookie looked absolutely fabulous!

Thanks Andy for giving me an intense cookie craving. I am trying to get on the road to go home and have a bunch of packing to do but now I have to go find a cookie.

I'm driving back up to Boston tomorrow and I actually did buy some cookies for the road. Chocolate chip cookies, in fact. I too have to do a bunch of packing but I'm gonna wait until tomorrow when I wake up (possibly hungover).

 

[bananaface]

I thought that cookie looked absolutely fabulous!

Thanks Andy for giving me an intense cookie craving. I am trying to get on the road to go home and have a bunch of packing to do but now I have to go find a cookie.

The Mrs. Fields cookies that you can buy at the grocery store and warm up in the microwave are yummy.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Question for Andy Milonakis or anyone. Is the brigham path program stronger than the mgh one, same, worse? What are the major differences (if there are any)?

Thanks a lot.

This question was asked actually two years ago and I don't suspect much has changed since then. Here is that thread. Below that is a Q&A thread specifically targeted towards the Brigham which was created this past year.
http://67.43.153.76/showthread.php?t=91515
http://67.43.153.76/showthread.php?t=165181

Brigham and MGH are both strong institutions. I actually ranked them #1 and #2. MGH does have the myth of training diagnosticians. Brigham has the myth of training academicians/researchers. I think to a certain extent those myths hold true...another term for that is tradition . But one cannot clearly dichotomize these programs anymore. MGH has been recruiting quite a few MD and MD/PhD types who are interested in research. In fact, I would say that 30% (give or take, I threw out the MGH interview info packet) go into academics. Likewise, the Brigham residents aren't all MD/PhD types that go into research. When I interviewed there, I was told that quite a few people are interested in private practice. I got the clear impression from both places that both institutions are striving towards balance. Balance in the force is good.

Hence, one cannot make the gross oversimplication that MGH is 100% diagnosticians/0% researchers and Brigham is 0% diagnosticians/100% researchers. The reality is far from that. However, each institution has it's own personalities, tendencies, and traditions. And I think the above threads indicate that.

Some differences between the two institutions:
(1) MGH - subspecialty signout. Brigham - general signout with some specialization.
(2) Brigham is a bigger program. MGH took 6 or 7 this year I think. BWH took a total of 12 (10 AP or AP/CP and 2 CP only).
(3) According to a friend of mine who is at MGH, more Brigham residents wear glasses. So be it. I'll break the curve though since I wear contacts! Ha!
(4) If you're AP/CP like the far majority of pathology residents, AP and CP rotations are interspersed during the residency at MGH. At the Brigham, however, everyone does 2 years of AP upfront. So all your busy surg path rotations are crammed into 2 years whereas it's not at MGH.

Similarities:
(1) Regardless of what your career ambitions are, the tools and resources are there to help you excel. It's up to you have to take advantage of them.
(2) If you're interested in research, it doesn't matter where you go really...you can end up choosing postdoc labs at the various Harvard institutions.
(3) Both programs are on the east coast. Both are Harvard affiliated. That means that people aren't gonna hold your hand, coddle you, and pat you on your head when you're in the corner bawlin' your eyes out because the sandwich you just ate tasted like turd covered in burnt hair (reference, anyone?) The east coast, west coast, and the midwest have their unique personalities. I'll end it at that.

 

[pathstudent]

Overall:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 585 606 660 626 651 772 676 603 645 695 682
95 549 555 592 588 574 611 619 570 588 613 610
90 529 539 574 556 553 611 574 540 559 613 592
75 498 508 516 503 502 554 536 499 516 517 538
50 458 462 467 436 445 504 470 461 462 450 488


Year 1:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 561 588 574 588 595 772 676 586 609 695 641
95 501 555 516 528 535 611 574 540 516 613 578
90 476 538 478 503 502 611 536 512 492 517 538
75 449 493 432 457 445 554 502 474 454 450 500
50 420 462 399 395 394 504 455 424 416 394 453


Year 2:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 553 588 605 626 596 678 676 576 590 695 628
95 526 555 558 556 553 611 574 540 550 613 592
90 507 539 529 528 518 611 574 526 532 559 564
75 482 508 490 503 483 554 536 486 492 517 525
50 449 462 444 436 432 504 470 449 446 421 477





CC Clinical Chemistry CP Cytopathology FP Forensic Pathology HP Hematopathology IP Immunopathology LA Lab Administration
MB Microbiology SP Surgical Pathology ST Special Topics
TM Transfusion Medicine
American Society for Clinical Pathology
2005 Resident In-Service Examination
Percentile Scores by Year and Content


Year 3:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 572 588 660 661 625 678 619 586 655 695 642
95 544 555 592 588 574 611 619 570 588 613 592
90 529 524 574 556 553 611 574 540 559 613 568
75 501 493 529 503 502 554 502 499 516 517 538
50 470 477 478 457 445 504 470 461 477 482 488


Year 4:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 590 624 660 675 688 772 676 621 649 826 706
95 561 571 611 588 621 678 619 586 598 695 661
90 550 555 592 556 596 611 574 554 588 613 611
75 524 524 543 528 535 554 536 512 550 559 564
50 492 477 503 457 472 504 470 474 500 482 525


Year 5:
Percentile Total CC CP FP HP IP LA MB SP ST TM
99 595 622 693 626 651 772 676 603 674 774 706
95 580 571 634 588 621 678 619 586 620 695 642
90 555 550 611 556 574 611 574 554 598 613 624
75 529 524 574 528 535 554 536 526 559 559 578
50 499 477 516 480 487 504 470 474 524 482 538





CC Clinical Chemistry CP Cytopathology FP Forensic Pathology HP Hematopathology IP Immunopathology LA Lab Administration
MB Microbiology SP Surgical Pathology ST Special Topics
TM Transfusion Medicine

 

[buddha belly]

THANK YOU so much, Andy -- that was really helpful.

I'm jonesin' for a chocolate chip cookie for some reason...

 

[yaah]

Thanks for the stats pathstudent - I had been trying to go to the website for more statistics and such but every time I went it was overloaded or something...

 

[bananaface]

yaah told me his RISE score.

It was 1298457567498578675657947598579867498787568748578934259879867843798579825794875987289567983576894597675986739856982768798675679827578172984379857

Good job yaah!




Really I have no idea what his actual score was. But, congratulations anyway.

 

[pathstudent]

Thanks for the stats pathstudent - I had been trying to go to the website for more statistics and such but every time I went it was overloaded or something...

That's amazing that the top 5 percent of first years are able to score higher than half the fourth and fifth year classes in most all subjects. But then again people are probably more casual about this test than the real boards.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

That's amazing that the top 5 percent of first years are able to score higher than half the fourth and fifth year classes in most all subjects. But then again people are probably more casual about this test than the real boards.

Do some programs give the RISE open book?

Since it is now taken internationally, how does previous knowlege play into the PGY category and statistics?

What is the best way to interpret scores when so many programs differ in order of rotation(i.e AP first or CP first etc) ?

 

[yaah]

I wondered if they even counted scores in things you haven't rotated in. I haven't done any cytopath, for example, although the RISE report gave me my score for cytopath (which, oddly, was at a 3rd year resident level ). Perhaps that only comes into play if the program is tracking your score somehow.

I highly doubt any programs give it open book - wasn't there some kind of stipulation when you are logging on to take the test that you won't use any other material?

As for PGY level, I think the PGY level includes all PGYs at that level, whether they are repeating residency or not.

 

[Doctor B.]

I wondered if they even counted scores in things you haven't rotated in.

If you mark "no experience" or in a certain area, it doesn't get reported to your program director. You'll see all your scores, of course, but the PD will only see those in which you've had some experience. I can't recall if those rotations in which you have no experience count towards your total RISE score.

By the way, the RISE is basically worthless when it comes to predicting how you will do on boards or in practice. As I believe others have stated, just use it to see if you are improving and to identify areas that might require further study.

 

[yaah]

Yeah - I asked around whether there was any correlation between RISE and board scores, and most of the senior people that I asked here said no. Some of the questions can be similar, but the overall experience is different.

 

[trent05]

What significance is a good/bad RISE score? Is it just for our own feedback and for our program to look for areas to improve? Or, is it something that will be used for fellowship applications? Would a fellowship request your rise scores? Do RISE scores have any role in getting good LOR's?

 

[Doctor B.]

Is it just for our own feedback and for our program to look for areas to improve?

Yes.

Some programs might make it a requirement to pass the RISE in order to advance to the next year. Ours doesn't; I'm not sure how many programs do require you to pass. But, the RISE will have no effect on fellowships, LOR, etc.

 

[docbiohazard]

Rather than start a new thread, thought I'd just drag this one out...

Took the RISE today... it was kind of rough, especially all that cytopath that I haven't had too much exposure to... felt better about the CP than the AP overall, but that's what I've been doing all spring I guess.

Didn't like the way the questions came at you in a bolus (ie. subjects grouped together)... curious to see how my scores turn out.

I have heard of some programs giving it open book, but I can't see the point of that...

Any other PGY1's want to share the misery?

DBH

 

[KeratinPearls]

What score should PGY1s be aiming for? >400? Isn't there a national average that is given for all residents in your year? Man I hope I don't bomb this test.

 

[dockart]

Took it today as well..cytopath was from left field since i have not done any rotations yet..DBH..what did you think of AP and special topics?

 

[HbyHA]

I've come to the conclusion that part of the goal of the RISE is to make you feel completely idiotic. don't worry! you do feel less idiotic as you take it year after year, but still pretty darn stupid.

Rather than start a new thread, thought I'd just drag this one out...

Took the RISE today... it was kind of rough, especially all that cytopath that I haven't had too much exposure to... felt better about the CP than the AP overall, but that's what I've been doing all spring I guess.

Didn't like the way the questions came at you in a bolus (ie. subjects grouped together)... curious to see how my scores turn out.

I have heard of some programs giving it open book, but I can't see the point of that...

Any other PGY1's want to share the misery?

DBH

 

[yaah]

Programs give it open book? That's lame.

The cytopath is always difficult and seems overrepresented. But the boards is similar in that aspect. One thing the RISE has more of is forensics.

 

[docbiohazard]

Took it today as well..cytopath was from left field since i have not done any rotations yet..DBH..what did you think of AP and special topics?

Cytopath was like this relentless hammer that kept pounding me on the head to make me feel stupid, and it seemed to never end.

I thought the forensics portion was fairly manageable, surprising since i've only had 3 forensics lectures and then a few months of medical autopsy service so far.

Surg path, felt like I should've known a lot more than I did. Wasn't really happy with the image quality on a lot of the AP part.

Special topics, I thought the management questions were straight forward and common sense, 'cept for a few acronyms and regulatory trivia points. I felt pretty good about molecular, too, but I just did a month of it in janurary, and i have a decent background in molecular techniques. The cytogenetics stuff was harder. Don't remember if any heme was crammed on there. Heme made me feel dumb.

DBH

 

[docbiohazard]

Programs give it open book? That's lame.

This is just what I've heard. No idea if its true - not true at my program. Also heard someone at USCAP was complaining in a residents forum that they were threatened with termination if they scored below the 10th percentile, or something... but I wasn't there, no idea where that person was from and if that in fact is true...

DBH

 

[listeriaismfb]

This is just what I've heard. No idea if its true - not true at my program. Also heard someone at USCAP was complaining in a residents forum that they were threatened with termination if they scored below the 10th percentile, or something... but I wasn't there, no idea where that person was from and if that in fact is true...

DBH

This doesn't surprise me...

Someone must have mentioned the correlation between boards pass rates and RISE scores before. I'll paraphrase, something like "if the RISE > 500, boards pass rate for AP/CP ~100%". Numbers are approximate, but you get the idea.

The programs want to be able to say things like "We have a 100% boards pass rate" , so canning residents who are likely to fail is in the program's best interests. If you are scoring below the 10th percentile for on RISE two consecutive years - it's a big red flag and it's probably a long shot that you'll actually pass the AP/CP boards.

 

[yaah]

This is just what I've heard. No idea if its true - not true at my program. Also heard someone at USCAP was complaining in a residents forum that they were threatened with termination if they scored below the 10th percentile, or something... but I wasn't there, no idea where that person was from and if that in fact is true...

DBH

Any program that says that should be immediately shuttered.

 

[docbiohazard]

Any program that says that should be immediately shuttered.

And perhaps any program that can't do a better job than that of training residents should be shuttered? (if it were a pattern of performance...)

DBH