Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

[DocHomer]

I just stated a reason about. One need not to be self-righteous to find for-profit education is bad.

My money is way too hard-earned to be finance some clown's vacation home (which is what will happen when you go to a for profit school. they are only responsible to maintain minimal competency).

when i got to a non profit school, those money would go into someone's pocket instead goes into research opportunities, etc and making sure I, myself, MSSM2013 have more future in my career.

I guess that's my perfectly selfish reason to go against for profit education

You keep arguing about how for-profit schools will only produce doctors who are minimally competent. Yet you keep sidestepping the point, and never really refute my claim. Then by your analysis, for-profit health care is limited to providing minimal but less than adequate care.

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[MSSM2013]

You keep arguing about how for-profit schools will only produce doctors who are minimally competent. Yet you keep sidestepping the point, and never really refute my claim. Then by your analysis, for-profit health care is limited to providing minimal but less than adequate care.

I can't say RVU will produce incompetent physician for now, because I cannot confirm one way or the other whether they actually have clinical spots or not, but hey, all it takes is ONE osteopathic libby zion and the osteopath profession will crumble.

think how will RVU stands under the public light.

 

[DocHomer]

I can't say RVU will produce incompetent physician for now, because I cannot confirm one way or the other whether they actually have clinical spots or not, but hey, all it takes is ONE osteopathic libby zion and the osteopath profession will crumble.

think how will RVU stands under the public light.

You still haven't addressed my point, but I'm willing to move on. Plus, osteopathic medicine is not that fragile.

To your other thought, I am also concerned about the public perception of RVU. As I said multiple times before, even though the public has a contradictory view of medicine where it's OK to make money on health care but not on education, you're still judged by that standard. However, if RVU is serving a need in Colorado then it is hard to argue against it so passionately even if you don't like the idea of for-profit education.

 

[DO Anes]

Given the undebatable fact that Colorado needed another medical school (not a single physician lives in 4 different counties):

How long do you think it would have taken the state of Colorado to fund and open a new medical school if RVU hadn't opened?

Do you think it better for the state and its people to patiently continue waiting (4 counties don't even have a doctor who lives there), or are we lucky that someone stepped up and acted?

Did Colorado go to Mr. Tien, desperately seeking a benefactor, or was it the other way around? We have never heard the history of how and why Colorado was chosen, but one suspects it was a simple calculation of a desirable place to open a school with the convenient story of "physician shortage". The school is located in a Denver suburb. If it really wanted to serve the needs of the people, why not open it in the more economically needy city of Pueblo? Not as able to attract $$$ paying students as Denver and the nearby mountains?
How many of your classmates will practice primary care in the 4 counties? I have worked in the migrant clinics of Lamar and LaJunta, but I had medical school bills like most DO's. I hope RVU surprises us by placing a substantial number of grads in the underserved and poor communities of Colorado, but I'm not holding my breath.

I do not, however, expect that another for-profit will open until RVU has been around to study its efficacy.

At least 3 other Caribbean schools are currently in the early planning stages for Osteopathic US schools.

I do have a question for you regarding "clinical education with professional, full-time employed faculty of consistent high quality"... is this something that RVU does not have?

Good question, who are the full-time employed (no other source of income) chairs of the following departments: anesthesiology, pathology, radiology, ENT and neurology? Too esoteric? How about internal medicine, OB/GYN and pediatrics? Of course, RVU is far from alone in inadequate clinical education among DO schools, but it is the best example of what is worng with the profession and its standards.
Osteopathic medicine is more fragile than we think. Everyone thought osteopathic medicine was strong and secure in California in 1961.

 

[just one]

Did Colorado go to Mr. Tien, desperately seeking a benefactor, or was it the other way around? We have never heard the history of how and why Colorado was chosen, but one suspects it was a simple calculation of a desirable place to open a school with the convenient story of "physician shortage". The school is located in a Denver suburb. If it really wanted to serve the needs of the people, why not open it in the more economically needy city of Pueblo? Not as able to attract $$$ paying students as Denver and the nearby mountains?
How many of your classmates will practice primary care in the 4 counties? I have worked in the migrant clinics of Lamar and LaJunta, but I had medical school bills like most DO's. I hope RVU surprises us by placing a substantial number of grads in the underserved and poor communities of Colorado, but I'm not holding my breath.




At least 3 other Caribbean schools are currently in the early planning stages for Osteopathic US schools.



Good question, who are the full-time employed (no other source of income) chairs of the following departments: anesthesiology, pathology, radiology, ENT and neurology? Too esoteric? How about internal medicine, OB/GYN and pediatrics? Of course, RVU is far from alone in inadequate clinical education among DO schools, but it is the best example of what is worng with the profession and its standards.
Osteopathic medicine is more fragile than we think. Everyone thought osteopathic medicine was strong and secure in California in 1961.

Are you seriously suggesting that RVU is the biggest or best example of the problems facing medicine? Holy cow! You are blaming poor clinical education standards on RVU when in fact they haven't even had a chance to produce good or bad results. It's like I tell my wife, don't yell at me for something that I haven't even done yet, wait at least til I screw up to yell at me.

 

[DO Anes]

RVU is just throwing gasoline on the fire that is the degradation of this profession. The issue is not so much RVU as it is the inferior accreditation standards for osteopathic schools allowed by COCA. Give them a chance? Risk and degrade the profession so the owner can increase his bank account?

 

[just one]

Really, you are first blaming RVU for substandard care, then it's the COCA, dang man at least be consistent. So you are basically saying you don't want to see RVU succeed, no matter even if they could. How pathetic. Show me one thing that RVU has done to produce substandard care. Just one, oh wait you can't, not at least until they have done at least one thing to lower care. And don't spit out the "it's gonna cause..." Crap. Because I'm willing to bet you weren't a psychic with a crystal ball inyour previous life
if you have a personal belief that for profit is wrong, fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't start trying to predict the future and spout off some garbage as truth

 

[futIDdoc]

Hmmm...who to believe? A pre-med or an attending with four years of medical education and 15,000 + hrs of clinical experience. btw look at the faculty at allo schools. You'll find tons of DOs and vanishingly few Carib (for-profit) students. Have fun racking up $300k in debt to get that community based family med residency (if you are one of the lucky ones)

 

[Mtnbiker]

I think they took a step in the right direction by bringing in Dr. Dubin as Dean. He's pretty impressive, and didn't strike me as the type that would be associated with a program that would graduate substandard doctors.

I think the bottom line is, only time will tell. That first graduating class will undergo a great deal of scrutiny, that's for sure. I wish them well.

 

[just one]

Hmmm...who to believe? A pre-med or an attending with four years of medical education and 15,000 + hrs of clinical experience. btw look at the faculty at allo schools. You'll find tons of DOs and vanishingly few Carib (for-profit) students. Have fun racking up $300k in debt to get that community based family med residency (if you are one of the lucky ones)

You are quoting 300K in debt like it is only at RVU, several others have similar prices. Once again, more people attacking RVU with no basis other than personal preference. Come on people, at least make a valid argument against the school. BTW I did not and will not be applying there. I just would like for once to see someone attack them with logic instead of emotions. List something RVU has done that has impacted care negatively, not just assumptions or implications of FUTURE problems.

 

[Concubine]

Simple cost/benefit analysis for you premeds thinking of going to RVU. I'll be generous and say that for profit could be a pro or a con, although I'm willing to bet most people would view it as a con.

Pros:

Denver - i.e. beautiful location
For profit?
easier to get into

Cons:

For profit?
200-300K of NON-FEDERAL Loans
clinical education questionable
lack of full time faculty
Questionable reputation that could affect residency placement
Easier to get into
No attached teaching hospital
Lack of research

Fill free to add to either list. As of now, the pros outweigh the cons I think, so if your stuck on going to RVU, gamble away!

 

[iatros]

Pros:

Denver - i.e. beautiful location
For profit?
easier to get into

Cons:

For profit?
200-300K of NON-FEDERAL Loans
clinical education questionable
lack of full time faculty
Questionable reputation that could affect residency placement
Easier to get into
No attached teaching hospital
Lack of research

Pro:
-faculty from all over the country with decades each of teaching experience who wrote the curriculum and have a personal interest in the success of the students.
-brand new facility. state of the art technology and pristine labs. makes state schools look like community colleges
-one of two medical schools in the entire state. will provide the state of colorado with much needed physicians to help fill the shortage and help fill in the underserved locations in the region.


as for your cons:

-cost is comparable to other medical schools like DMU or KCOM. loans will be private only up until 2012 when the school receives full accred'n

-clinical education IS questionable. this is why i wont be attending RVU in the fall however lots of schools have high turnover rates in keeping contracts with medical facilities. even well established schools change their rotation sites with some degree of frequency. RVU, while untested, sounds like it's on the right track... http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_clinicalmed.asp

-lack of full time faculty? untrue and unfounded. they do not hire from a temp agency. they may have had staffing issues earlier on but those issues have been resolved.

-i think the questionable rep only exists on SDN. i think the physicians in the community will keep an open mind and expect to see competent student doctors which, i believe, they will.

-easier to get into? tell that to the 3000 qualified applicants who didnt get in last year. also- go peruse the RVU2009-2010 thread and check out some of the folks who got waitlisted. i think RVU is about as easy to get into as any other DO school

-no attached teaching hospital. true. but rvu is not the only one.

-lack of research. currently true however efforts are underway. http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_research.asp


flame away if you wish but i just think we should give this school a shot. lets wait till 2013 before we start tearing this school apart.

 

[Brocimus]

Simple cost/benefit analysis for you premeds thinking of going to RVU. I'll be generous and say that for profit could be a pro or a con, although I'm willing to bet most people would view it as a con.

Pros:

Denver - i.e. beautiful location
For profit?
easier to get into

Cons:

For profit?
200-300K of NON-FEDERAL Loans
clinical education questionable
lack of full time faculty
Questionable reputation that could affect residency placement
Easier to get into
No attached teaching hospital
Lack of research

Fill free to add to either list. As of now, the pros outweigh the cons I think, so if your stuck on going to RVU, gamble away!

I wouldn't say this school is easier to get into. The stats of matriculating students are very average.

Pro - fairly awesome OMM and anatomy labs.

 

[WhatsNext]

So, what I've really gathered from this thread is:

1. There is currently no factual evidence for any malfeasance on the part of RVU's management.
2. There are people on this thread that apparently disagree with for-profit medical education in principle. But, most of them are not mature enough to simply state that fact without making unfounded claims intent on the defamation of RVU and its management. Really, why is it so hard to simply say, "I personally don't believe that someone should make a profit while educating future physicians," and just leave it at that?
3. The uncertainty about RVU's clinical education seems to be an issue to some. But, to me it seems that any new school is going to have to deal with that whether it's for-profit or non-profit.
4. COCA has low accreditation standards, osteopathic clinical education is sub-par, and it's only getting worse. If this is true, why would I go to any DO school whether it's old, new, for-profit, or non-profit?

Actually, I threw #4 in there for effect. I've accepted an offer to attend my state's DO school. But, DO Anes your posts are enough to make me (and probably many others) question the quality of osteopathic education even without RVU in the picture.

 

[MSSM2013]

So, what I've really gathered from this thread is:

1. There is currently no factual evidence for any malfeasance on the part of RVU's management.
2. There are people on this thread that apparently disagree with for-profit medical education in principle. But, most of them are not mature enough to simply state that fact without making unfounded claims intent on the defamation of RVU and its management. Really, why is it so hard to simply say, "I personally don't believe that someone should make a profit while educating future physicians," and just leave it at that?
3. The uncertainty about RVU's clinical education seems to be an issue to some. But, to me it seems that any new school is going to have to deal with that whether it's for-profit or non-profit.
4. COCA has low accreditation standards, osteopathic clinical education is sub-par, and it's only getting worse. If this is true, why would I go to any DO school whether it's old, new, for-profit, or non-profit?

Actually, I threw #4 in there for effect. I've accepted an offer to attend my state's DO school. But, DO Anes your posts are enough to make me (and probably many others) question the quality of osteopathic education even without RVU in the picture.

search previous thread with RVU in it, you'll see how they fired the previous dean, and when the board refused to fire the previous dean, the owner stepped in, fired the board, and became a board member along with his lawyer and his wife, all in the first year.

 

[Concubine]

Pro:
-faculty from all over the country with decades each of teaching experience who wrote the curriculum and have a personal interest in the success of the students.

Didn't include this because that is pretty much standard everywhere.

-brand new facility. state of the art technology and pristine labs. makes state schools look like community colleges

Good pro I overlooked.

-one of two medical schools in the entire state. will provide the state of colorado with much needed physicians to help fill the shortage and help fill in the underserved locations in the region.

Yeah, you will find this reason at lots of schools. Here in WV, they say the same thing.

as for your cons: cost is comparable to other medical schools like DMU or KCOM. loans will be private only up until 2012 when the school receives full accred'n

Yeah, but still a MAJOR con as of now. When they are able to give out federal loans, then the con will turn into just 200-300K of debt, which is still a huge con compared to going to any state school. The exception of this is being in the military, in which it's all free anywhere you go.

-clinical education IS questionable. this is why i wont be attending RVU in the fall however lots of schools have high turnover rates in keeping contracts with medical facilities. even well established schools change their rotation sites with some degree of frequency. RVU, while untested, sounds like it's on the right track... http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_clinicalmed.asp

Yes, this is a fault of many osteopathic schools, but still a con.

-lack of full time faculty? untrue and unfounded. they do not hire from a temp agency. they may have had staffing issues earlier on but those issues have been resolved.

I still think this could be an issue. Take any larger University, & the faculty pool they can pull to teach on lectures from is significantly larger. However, I'll admit this is an issue with many osteopathic schools but something you should still consider when applying.

-i think the questionable rep only exists on SDN. i think the physicians in the community will keep an open mind and expect to see competent student doctors which, i believe, they will.

I hope. I think the initial pressure to put out good grads is there, but I think the for profit model could potentially change this in the long run.

-easier to get into? tell that to the 3000 qualified applicants who didnt get in last year. also- go peruse the RVU2009-2010 thread and check out some of the folks who got waitlisted. i think RVU is about as easy to get into as any other DO school

I still think it is easier to get into, but I'll admit this hypothesis has not been tested. The general rule is allopathic > osteopathic > carribean when it comes to ease of getting in. You have to admit that with the controversy surrounding the school, it has at least deferred at least some applicants from going. . I at least know a few from last year. This is going to drive down the competitiveness at least a bit

-no attached teaching hospital. true. but rvu is not the only one.

This was one of the biggest cons for me when I was choosing schools. This is the reason I elected not to attend AZCOM, Touro CA, Touro NV, or Western. An attached teaching hospital is a HUGE advantage to any school, in general you will have a much more academic teaching style. Although community hospitals do have some advantages in being more personal, you definitely miss out on some learning opportunities.

lack of research. currently true however efforts are underway. http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_research.asp

This is true with most osteopathic schools along with RVU, but still may be a factor when choosing a school.

flame away if you wish but i just think we should give this school a shot. lets wait till 2013 before we start tearing this school apart.

RVU is untested & some judgment shouldn't be passed yet. However, I still maintain it's a gamble. Unless one of the pros (i.e. like location) overshadows the cons for an individual, there is no reason to choose RVU.

 

[Instatewaiter]

1. There is currently no factual evidence for any malfeasance on the part of RVU's management.
   They fired the entire board of objective people after it refused to fire the dean (that Tien wanted out) and replaced them with yes men and relatives. If you dont see that as a sign of wrongdoing then you will likely be taken for a ride
   
2. There are people on this thread that apparently disagree with for-profit medical education in principle. But, most of them are not mature enough to simply state that fact without making unfounded claims intent on the defamation of RVU and its management. Really, why is it so hard to simply say, "I personally don't believe that someone should make a profit while educating future physicians," and just leave it at that?
   
   I do not agree with for profit medical education. On top of this there are clearly problems with RVU including firing the board, no loans, high tuition, and what's worse, their education is suspect (no clear rotations, no central hospital), etc
   
3. The uncertainty about RVU's clinical education seems to be an issue to some. But, to me it seems that any new school is going to have to deal with that whether it's for-profit or non-profit.
   
   look at other new schools like UCF. They already have a hospital attached to their campus. This should be the standard for any new school (and is the standard on the other side of the tracts). The fact that COCA does not feel this is necessary does not mean it is unnecessary; it just means their standards are lax.
   
   
4. COCA has low accreditation standards, osteopathic clinical education is sub-par, and it's only getting worse. If this is true, why would I go to any DO school whether it's old, new, for-profit, or non-profit?
   
   COCA does have lower accreditation standards. That doesnt mean that many if not most DO schools live up to higher standards than COCA requires. However, because the standards are not the same as LCME, you should look at each school you apply to with skepticism. Look at their rotations specifically

1. 
   .

 

[Siggy]

look at other new schools like UCF. They already have a hospital attached to their campus. This should be the standard for any new school (and is the standard on the other side of the tracts). The fact that COCA does not feel this is necessary does not mean it is unnecessary; it just means their standards are lax.

So I guess UCI and Tufts are poor schools because, respectively, the hospital isn't physically attached to the school (UCI med center is several miles away in a different city) or owned by the school (Tufts Med isn't owned by Tufts University)?

 

[just one]

The no federal loans is not because of for profit, just because it has not finished accredidation. All new schools are subject to that.

 

[WhatsNext]

Instatewaiter - Thanks for the additonal information. My responses to your statements are in red below.

"They fired the entire board of objective people after it refused to fire the dean (that Tien wanted out) and replaced them with yes men and relatives. If you dont see that as a sign of wrongdoing then you will likely be taken for a ride"

Thanks for this bit of information, but I'm not in the habit of taking things that are posted on SDN as fact. If this is, in fact, true then I'll hand it to you and say that it does seem quite shady. While this doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility by any stretch, it still seems that your statement is mostly conjecture. Yes, Mr. Tien and his wife are now on the board. But, that's about all I can verify. How am I supposed to know for a fact that the original board was objective and the new board is full of "yes men"? It's nothing personal, but I'd rather not simply take your word for it. Plus, if there really was some wrongdoing going on, why didn't at least one member of the original board or the dean resign and go to the public with it before being fired? (Those are rhetorical questions)

I worked in the corporate environment long enough to know that sometimes situations that seemed shady on the surface actually turned out to be completely acceptable once I learned the whole story. The problem is that I'm not sure that any amount of research is going to unveil the whole story unless the actual players are willing to speak up about it, and I haven't been able to find that anywhere. Although, I will admit that I don't really have a high degree of motivation to dig any deeper. I guess it leaves me back where I started of maintaining a healthy skepticism while withholding final judgment. I personally would rather have more pieces of the puzzle before passing judgment, and it's become clear to me that I'm not going to get that here.

"I do not agree with for profit medical education. On top of this there are clearly problems with RVU including firing the board, no loans, high tuition, and what's worse, their education is suspect (no clear rotations, no central hospital), etc "

It's your right to not agree with for-profit medical education. As for the high tuition 36k-40k/year at RVU seems to be on par with most of the private osteopathic schools I've looked at, which are all non-profit, of course.

I think you meant no FEDERAL loans, but that's until they are granted full accreditation, and private loans are still available. You're right that their clinical rotations are still unclear and they have no central hospital. But, doesn't the loan situation and the clinical rotations have more to do with it being a new school with only a provisional accreditation than with it being for-profit? In any case the tuition, private loans, and ambiguity on clinicals are the main reasons I've decided to attend a different school.

"look at other new schools like UCF. They already have a hospital attached to their campus. This should be the standard for any new school (and is the standard on the other side of the tracts). The fact that COCA does not feel this is necessary does not mean it is unnecessary; it just means their standards are lax.

COCA does have lower accreditation standards. That doesnt mean that many if not most DO schools live up to higher standards than COCA requires. However, because the standards are not the same as LCME, you should look at each school you apply to with skepticism. Look at their rotations specifically"

While this has been eye opening, it is starting to get dangerously close to an allopathic vs. osteopathic discussion that I really don't want to get into, nor did I ever intend to initiate. I'm out.

 

[MSSM2013]

http://neighbors.denverpost.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12455637

a news post regarding how RVU threw out half of its board

http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/board.asp

this is straight out of their website.

Robert Black is Tien's lawyer

Lucy Chua is his wife

Tien is the owner.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So I guess UCI and Tufts are poor schools because, respectively, the hospital isn't physically attached to the school (UCI med center is several miles away in a different city) or owned by the school (Tufts Med isn't owned by Tufts University)?

The idea is that the school has dibs on rotations for its students and you are not sent all over the state (or to another state for that matter). See, RVU cannot not say either of these. They couldnt even get a core site. However, tufts students have dibs at Tufts Medical center. UCI students have dibs at UCI medical center. And UCI medical center is like 10 miles from UCI med school.

 

[exPCM]

Carribean schools and schools like Rocky Vista are IMO more interested in making money than education anyway. These schools just farm out their students in the 3rd and 4th years to widely dispersed clinical settings that vary tremendously in the caliber of student education. Do you think that these schools really do any serious quality control in establishing clinical rotations?.
A primary factor is how much does the school have to pay the clinical site to take the student. The less money the school has to pay the clinical site the greater the profit for the school. SGU paid 100 million for 600 clerkship positions per year for their students for 10 years to NY HHC and SGU will still make a nice profit http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives07-HHC.html . (This roughly calculates to 100 million/120 months/600 students = $1388 per student per month - however tuition at SGU in the clincal years works out to ~50K/year or about $4200 per month).
I have heard that VCOM pays $1000 per student per month to the clinical core rotation sites ( http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...04bebe3e-9.pdf ) .
Look at statement 5 and you will see that VCOM paid Carillion $133,000, UMDNJ $122,000, and Salisbury VA $113,000 for precepting students.
How do you know that the caliber of training at these sites is all equal?.
Where I went to med school in TX and where I have practiced in CA I have had med school faculty tell me that they pay lower rates to clinical sites and there are numerous sites which will take 3rd and 4th year students in limited numbers for free (often they are sites connected with residency programs for which the student rotations help them in recruiting for residency). There are also quite a few private practice docs who will still volunteer to take students at their offices for free but that number is dwindling as many docs are working harder to keep their practices afloat as reimbursements decrease and they really don't have time for teaching.
Here is a group that charges IMGs 300-400 per week for clinical training - What do you think they pay the training sites and what is the caliber of training? http://www.gmcgroup.org/tuition.html
I do not know how much Rocky Vista will pay but I would bet they will be interested in getting a lower price rather than a higher one. If they are willing to pay $2000 per student per month than IMO they can probably get the Mayo Clinic to take their students. If they are willing to pay $200 per student per month then IMO it is probably Boondocks Hospital in Green Acres, Colorado.
The education that the student receives in medical schools now is widely variable in the 3rd and 4th year at many US medical schools.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[Siggy]

And UCI medical center is like 10 miles from UCI med school.

Yea... but 10 miles is a lot when the 55 is backed up between the 5 and 405.

 

[exPCM]

I don't know about Salisbury, but Carilion is large 825-bed hospital with good rotations and plenty of research, and UMDNJ is a very good hospital with New Jersey's DO school.

Okay that's great. So what do you think the odds are that Rocky Vista students will have core sites like those? Do you really see Rocky Vista paying clinical sites $1000 per student per month?

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[exPCM]

Oh, I see your point. I didn't know if you were questioning the quality of VCOM's rotation sites, but now I see you were comparing them to Rocky Vista. My fault.

Actually it's my fault too. When I go back and read my original post I didn't make myself clear on the fact that I cannot criticize VCOM's selection of core sites as I have not been to any of those sites. It sounds like from your posts that the Carillion and UMDNJ sites are first rate. Again I have grave doubts that Rocky Vista will have such good sites.

 

[Laryngophed]

Actually it's my fault too. When I go back and read my original post I didn't make myself clear on the fact that I cannot criticize VCOM's selection of core sites as I have not been to any of those sites. It sounds like from your posts that the Carillion and UMDNJ sites are first rate. Again I have grave doubts that Rocky Vista will have such good sites.

I was confused by your OP, thanks for straightening it out. It doesn't take much, but you threw me for a loop there.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Yea... but 10 miles is a lot when the 55 is backed up between the 5 and 405.

Again, the idea is that as a student you wont have to ship off somewhere and wont have to keep changing sites. Having to keep moving during third year would be a complete pain. Each time you get to a new site, you have to learn how to cruise the system instead of focusing on how to be a doctor. It really detracts from your education. This goes for any place that sends you to multiple different hospitals.

 

[Concubine]

This is a major issue students often overlook when applying to school. Where are your rotations? What is the quality? Talk to some 3rd & 4th years if you can. If a school does not have it already planned out for you, or if you end up running around the state every month, it might be a good idea to choose another school.

 

[scpod]

Okay that's great. So what do you think the odds are that Rocky Vista students will have core sites like those? Do you really see Rocky Vista paying clinical sites $1000 per student per month?

Ho much you pay a hospital makes little difference at all. There's one teaching hospital in Orlando that takes osteopathic students for free. They do, however, get paid by one of the Carribean schools to take their students. What does the Carribean school get for that? Generally, 8 to 10 of their students follow an attending on rounds, taking notes and asking questions. That's it. Some of that money goes to the attending, with the rest going to teach osteopathic students and residents. At the same time, osteopathic students, PA students, nursing students...etc. get a great education with didactics and hands-on experience, working with the residents and attendings.

It's not all about the money.

 

[exPCM]

How much you pay a hospital makes little difference at all. There's one teaching hospital in Orlando that takes osteopathic students for free. They do, however, get paid by one of the Carribean schools to take their students. What does the Carribean school get for that? Generally, 8 to 10 of their students follow an attending on rounds, taking notes and asking questions. That's it. Some of that money goes to the attending, with the rest going to teach osteopathic students and residents. At the same time, osteopathic students, PA students, nursing students...etc. get a great education with didactics and hands-on experience, working with the residents and attendings.

It's not all about the money.

These are typical naive med student statements.
1. Medicine is big business and so is medical education. Do you think Yife Tien started Rocky Vista because he is a great humanitarian? From Forbes: Yife Tien knows a medical school can be hugely profitable offshore. Now he wants to make a buck training osteopathic doctors in the U.S.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0929/060.html
2. How do you know for sure whether the hospital in Orlando takes students for free? Unless you have access to your school financial statements you are likely posting hearsay. It is possible but is more and more unusual for sites to take students for free. The 100 million dollar contract that SGU signed got the attention of a lot of hospital administrators. Many hospitals are under financial stress and looking for revenue sources - such as the Carribean school paying the Orlando Hospital. Also with the opening of UCSF med school in Orlando this year the days of access to these Orlando rotations for osteopathic students may be numbered, particularly if they are not paying the hospital.
3. Check out the kind of care the wealthy get at the Mayo clinic and then compare it to a local county indigent care hospital and tell me that the money you pay a hospital makes little difference at all.
4. Do you think SGU would be paying hospitals 1300+ per student per month and VCOM 1000 per student per month if there were so many good teaching hospitals taking students for free? Do you think the administration at SGU and VCOM as well as most other schools is made up of idiots?

 

[scpod]

These are typical naive med student statements.

First, let me say that I enjoyed the way you took my quote out of context. My whole post was about the amount of money paid to a hoapital for otations does not guarantee the quality-- not that money doesn't drive medicine. Second, as a 45 year-old ex businessman who managed a 188 million dollar-a-year business, I can tell you that I am far from naive about money matters. If you want to have a pissing contest about business matters, I assure you that I can hold my own.[/QUOTE]

How do you know for sure whether the hospital in Orlando takes students for free? Unless you have access to your school financial statements you are likely posting hearsay. It is possible but is more and more unusual for sites to take students for free.....Also with the opening of UCSF med school in Orlando this year the days of access to these Orlando rotations for osteopathic students may be numbered, particularly if they are not paying the hospital....

Let me assure you that my school doesn't pay anyone for rotations. There are actually quite a few of them around who still don't. However, when this particular hospital was sold a few years ago, part of the arrangements was that an endowment for osteopathic education be set up. It's a rather large one. They have a six-figure cash "bonus" to play with each year.

This really is a good example of you making generalizations based on your partial knowledge of the educational system. You made generalizations about this particular hospital without knowing anything about it. I would have to assume that many of your statements about RVU are also made without you checking the facts first.

Btw, UCF has already reached out to other surrounding hospitals that currently do not take students and is trying to set up rotations with them. These places are not currently teaching hospitals, but UCF students will be rotating in them in 2011. It's not just osteopathic schools that are using this model these days. Florida State has set up a number of places around the state because it doesn't have a teaching hospital of its own. Many of their students are rotating in private offices with preceptors because they don't have any other choice.

 

[ncguy2005]

I don't know about Salisbury, but Carilion is large 825-bed hospital with good rotations and plenty of research, and UMDNJ is a very good hospital with New Jersey's DO school.

Being 15 minutes from Salisbury I'll comment that I've heard mixed things about Rowan Regional and Salisbury VA... I think both are listed as affiliated hospitals with more than one DO school.

With a much bigger hospital in the county south of Rowan County, and one of the biggest in the state 45 minutes away in Charlotte... people try to avoid Rowan as much as possible.

I just wonder if I were to do some of my rotations there as a med student, what would I be able to see? I'm not in medical school now, but if I understand correctly the most important thing about the rotations are seeing/learning/doing as much as you can while you're there.

I guess a good solution is to carefully research each site, but how competitive would it be at a school like VCOM or any osteopathic school to do your rotation in one of the bigger hospitals that they're affiliated with?

 

[exPCM]

First, let me say that I enjoyed the way you took my quote out of context. My whole post was about the amount of money paid to a hoapital for otations does not guarantee the quality-- not that money doesn't drive medicine. Second, as a 45 year-old ex businessman who managed a 188 million dollar-a-year business, I can tell you that I am far from naive about money matters. If you want to have a pissing contest about business matters, I assure you that I can hold my own.
Let me assure you that my school doesn't pay anyone for rotations. There are actually quite a few of them around who still don't. However, when this particular hospital was sold a few years ago, part of the arrangements was that an endowment for osteopathic education be set up. It's a rather large one. They have a six-figure cash "bonus" to play with each year.

This really is a good example of you making generalizations based on your partial knowledge of the educational system. You made generalizations about this particular hospital without knowing anything about it. I would have to assume that many of your statements about RVU are also made without you checking the facts first.

Btw, UCF has already reached out to other surrounding hospitals that currently do not take students and is trying to set up rotations with them. These places are not currently teaching hospitals, but UCF students will be rotating in them in 2011. It's not just osteopathic schools that are using this model these days. Florida State has set up a number of places around the state because it doesn't have a teaching hospital of its own. Many of their students are rotating in private offices with preceptors because they don't have any other choice.

I think if your school is not paying for rotations - great. I will bet you that in 5 years that will not be the case. HR 3962 passed yesterday and the future bodes for more squeezing of the bottom lines for hospitals and physicians.
I think I likely have far more knowledge of the medical education system than you. I have solid experience in private practice and as a med school attending. Your experience is apparently as a businessman and now a med student.
If you were really such a great businessman than what are you doing in med school at age 45? Did your company go bankrupt?
I think a lot of midlife individuals look at medicine as a good paying and secure career and become career changers. I can assure you that good pay and security in medicine is no longer assured. Many clinics and offices are having difficulty and practice closures are common. Cardiology and radiology reimbursement has already been slashed and more cuts are pending.
As far as RVU goes IMO I believe the facts are clear as illustrated in the Forbes article and the current list of affiliates appears to me to be mainly a bunch of nonteaching hospitals with only a few residency programs (e.g. HealthOne FP program) that I found in the entire list of sites: http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/dept_clinicalmed.asp
Frankly it is IMO pathetic to charge students 40K/yr with that current clinical site lineup. Maybe this list will change, time will tell.

 

[scpod]

I think I likely have far more knowledge of the medical education system than you. I have solid experience in private practice and as a med school attending. Your experience is apparently as a businessman and now a med student.
If you were really such a great businessman than what are you doing in med school at age 45? Did your company go bankrupt?
I think a lot of midlife individuals look at medicine as a good paying and secure career and become career changers....

Nope, the company is still doing well but I left in order to do something a little more altruistic in life. I'm not in it for the money. I've read your other posts. You like to call people naive and assert how often you are right and everyone else is wrong. Were you a bully in school? Or were you the one who was bullied and is now trying to get back at the world by demeaning everyone else? If this is what comforts you in life then go right ahead and continue.

 

[Handy388]

Nope, the company is still doing well but I left in order to do something a little more altruistic in life. I'm not in it for the money. I've read your other posts. You like to call people naive and assert how often you are right and everyone else is wrong. Were you a bully in school? Or were you the one who was bullied and is now trying to get back at the world by demeaning everyone else? If this is what comforts you in life then go right ahead and continue.

I had experience with a non-trad student like you before. I was touring a school, an older woman tour guide was telling us about how she left a business in order to feel altrustic.

Then she asked me what I wanted to do, I told her "transplant surgery". She then proceeded to berate me on how I just want to make money.

Little did she know that transplant is actually one of the less lucrative specialty. I did not attend that school.

If you are so business savvy, then you can probably see right through the whole "producing physician for colorado" BS and know what Tien want, and if you are altrustic, you probably should not support RVU.

 

[exPCM]

I had experience with a non-trad student like you before. I was touring a school, an older woman tour guide was telling us about how she left a business in order to feel altrustic.

Then she asked me what I wanted to do, I told her "transplant surgery". She then proceeded to berate me on how I just want to make money.

Little did she know that transplant is actually one of the less lucrative specialty. I did not attend that school.

If you are so business savvy, then you can probably see right through the whole "producing physician for colorado" BS and know what Tien want, and if you are altrustic, you probably should not support RVU.

Nope, the company is still doing well but I left in order to do something a little more altruistic in life. I'm not in it for the money. I've read your other posts. You like to call people naive and assert how often you are right and everyone else is wrong. Were you a bully in school? Or were you the one who was bullied and is now trying to get back at the world by demeaning everyone else? If this is what comforts you in life then go right ahead and continue.

No but I do call a spade a spade. If someone makes a naive statement I will say so. I am highly critical of med students who are going into medicine for "altruism" who think they are so much more knowledgeable and have no respect for attendings who have far more experience in medicine than they do. If you wanted to be altruistic you could be a social worker or volunteer at a soup kitchen or work for a charity. I have interviewed many students for med school admission. Most of the time when I interview a student for med school and they tell me the only reason they are going into medicine is to "help people" my BS meter goes offscale.

My main purpose here is to give an attending perspective on issues. You can take it or leave it. However, I respected my attending's views when I was a med student even if I did not always agree with them. I often found out later as time passed that what I had thought was right was wrong. I do not hesitate to respond to ridiculous posts/attacks by smart aleck students. If you want to engage in friendly debate fine - but your posts have been confrontational from the start. You are going to have a lot of problems if you think your age automatically makes you an authority on medical issues. You need to understand that when you get into residency you will often be taking marching orders from 29 year old chief residents and if you don't respect their greater experience in medicine then you are in for a very rocky ride.
I have talked with dozens of colleagues who will agree with me on most of these issues. So are you saying that you are right and an expert and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong?
I think maybe you were the school bully.
Frankly statements like how much you pay a hospital makes little difference and claiming that I have partial knowledge of the system compared to your expert knowledge are a bit much. Do you really think SGU would have gotten those NY rotation spots if money makes little difference?

Next are you going to tell me that the USMLE Step 2 CS and COMLEX Level 2 PE exams were invented a few years ago to save lives. IMO they were invented to make money and justified as needed to save lives. Needless to say IMO these exams have not improved medical care one iota in the US but they have made some people a lot of money. Isn't it amazing that Step 1 and Step 2 were just fine by themselves 10 years ago but now Step 2 CS is now essential? There are plenty of PAs and NPs practicing who do not have to take such costly CS exams and they are getting licensed throughout the US. When I went to medical school the school made sure that there was basic competency in clinical skills through courses/rotations/evaluations and somehow we are supposed to believe that this is not acceptable and this extra expensive exam is now a must. Then again if schools are being established primarily to make money and end up with what appear to be lackluster clinical training sites I might have to reconsider the necessity of the clinical skills board exams.

 

[just one]

No but I do call a spade a spade. If someone makes a naive statement I will say so. I am highly critical of med students who are going into medicine for "altruism" who think they are so much more knowledgeable and have no respect for attendings who have far more experience in medicine than they do. My only purpose here is to give an attending perspective on issues. You can take it or leave it. However, I respected my attending's views when I was a med student even if I did not always agree with them. I often found out later as time passed that what I had thought was right was wrong. I do not hesitate to respond to ridiculous posts by smart aleck students. If you want to engage in friendly debate fine - but your posts have been confrontational from the start. You are going to have a lot of problems if you think your age automatically makes you an authority on medical issues. You need to understand that a when you get into residency you will often be taking marching orders from 29 year old chief residents and if you don't respect their greater experience in medicine then you are in for a very rocky ride.
I have talked with dozens of colleagues who will agree with me on most of these issues. So are you saying that you are right and everyone else is wrong?

Just something I've been thinking when reading some of these threads, thought I'd throw it out there.
I keep hearing about how attendings deserve respect and we should just take everything they say as gospel on these threads. While I do 100% agree that inside a hospital in reference to treating patients, attendings deserve the utmost respect (whether right or wrong). I believe the internet changes my perspective for the following reasons:
1. How do I know you are in fact who you say you are? What keeps me from creating an account as an "attending"
2. Some of the topics (including RVU) are outside of the scope of some attendings. RVU is a new concept for US medicine. You can compare it to Caribbean but it is not comparing apples to apples. While attendings do posses experiences in medicine far greater than premeds or medical students, am I just to trust you that you are well versed in a completely new venture in US medicine? How do I know that your opinions are well educated.
3. The only thing we have to asses your credibility is by the nature on your posts. Professional informative posts go a long way.

I am not saying I disagree with your posts, I am just pointing out a trend I see when an attending posts on here and ANYONE besides another attending raises questions. We are immediately retaliated against. I would rather you post logical, well informed opinions (preferably with sources, not just I talk to others) that we all can understand so at some point we can make a logical, well informed decision of our own.
I think your point would be better absorbed if the "bickering" was kept to a minimum. I know it is hard to do on the internet.
You did do several sources, so not all was questionable. But I got the feeling that you are bringing a perspective of an area or region of how things in medicine work. Also as a returning student with a thirteen year career in another area, I believe that while many things operate similarly, others can be quite different in various regions. So are you speaking with credibility to many areas, or have you been in the same area for a long time (you know, things do changes sometimes)? Once again I am not opposed to your statements, just raising questions so I can make an informed decision about things.

 

[exPCM]

Just something I've been thinking when reading some of these threads, thought I'd throw it out there.
I keep hearing about how attendings deserve respect and we should just take everything they say as gospel on these threads. While I do 100% agree that inside a hospital in reference to treating patients, attendings deserve the utmost respect (whether right or wrong). I believe the internet changes my perspective for the following reasons:
1. How do I know you are in fact who you say you are? What keeps me from creating an account as an "attending"
2. Some of the topics (including RVU) are outside of the scope of some attendings. RVU is a new concept for US medicine. You can compare it to Caribbean but it is not comparing apples to apples. While attendings do posses experiences in medicine far greater than premeds or medical students, am I just to trust you that you are well versed in a completely new venture in US medicine? How do I know that your opinions are well educated.
3. The only thing we have to asses your credibility is by the nature on your posts. Professional informative posts go a long way.

I am not saying I disagree with your posts, I am just pointing out a trend I see when an attending posts on here and ANYONE besides another attending raises questions. We are immediately retaliated against. I would rather you post logical, well informed opinions (preferably with sources, not just I talk to others) that we all can understand so at some point we can make a logical, well informed decision of our own.
I think your point would be better absorbed if the "bickering" was kept to a minimum. I know it is hard to do on the internet.
You did do several sources, so not all was questionable. But I got the feeling that you are bringing a perspective of an area or region of how things in medicine work. Also as a returning student with a thirteen year career in another area, I believe that while many things operate similarly, others can be quite different in various regions. So are you speaking with credibility to many areas, or have you been in the same area for a long time (you know, things do changes sometimes)? Once again I am not opposed to your statements, just raising questions so I can make an informed decision about things.

You raise some good questions.
1. I do not know the answer to this question. I am not an SDN site moderator. There is an excellent site for physicians called Sermo which actually makes significant efforts to ensure it is a physician only site.
2. I do not think that Rocky Vista is a new concept but I think it is really an old concept that existed before the Flexner Report in 1910 when there were many for-profit US medical schools of variable quality. Look at the Forbes article: Do you really believe the Tien opened RVU as a totally altruistic endeavor?
3. Agree.

 

[scpod]

....I keep hearing about how attendings deserve respect and we should just take everything they say as gospel on these threads....

It's not just in medicine. In business, religion, the military... practically every aspect of real life you will find people constantly demanding that they receive respect due to some position they have obtained. However, you will also find many people in the same situations who have legitimately earned the respect of others due to their actions. These people are true leaders, and definitely people that should be consulted and trusted in their respective fields.

Unfortunately, in the cyberspace world, you really have no idea who you are talking to. There will be many folks on SDN who will tell you they are attendings and demand your respect-- yet they are still in highschool or college dropouts, for example. You just have no idea who is on the other end of the keyboard. That's why you have to be very careful who you listen to on here.

Yet, there is also a great deal of knowledge to be gained on SDN. You just have to sort through the wheat and throw out the chaff. If I was to give you any advice at all it would probably be not to listen to anyone's advice-- my own included Take what you hear and draw your own conclusions-- keeping in mind the sources.

 

[just one]

You raise some good questions.
1. I do not know the answer to this question. I am not a site moderator.
2. I do not think that Rocky Vista is a new concept but I think it is really an old concept that existed before the Flexner Report in 1910 when there were many for-profit US medical schools of variable quality. Look at the Forbes article: Do you really believe the Tien opened RVU as a totally altruistic endeavor?
3. Agree.

The US has changed tremendously in the past 100 years, I amnot gonna put too much stock in something from 1910
I could care less why he opened it, I care about does it produce quality physicians and how does it impact medicine. As of yet there has been no negative impacts. If people want to agree about negative image over the board thing, show me an industry that doesn't have controversy. Has the board screwed up yet?

 

[exPCM]

The US has changed tremendously in the past 100 years, I amnot gonna put too much stock in something from 1910
I could care less why he opened it, I care about does it produce quality physicians and how does it impact medicine. As of yet there has been no negative impacts. If people want to agree about negative image over the board thing, show me an industry that doesn't have controversy. Has the board screwed up yet?

The Flexner report was quite important in US medical education history - if you wish to remain ignorant about it that is your prerogative.
I think there have already been plenty of negative effects with RVU:
The AOA-COCA has lost some credibility IMO by accrediting a for-profit school.
I believe that the blood letting among the RVU faculty in the first year was not a benign situation.
The osteopathic medicine profession, which had come very far in reaching equality with allopathic medicine, I believe has suffered a black eye with the opening of RVU.
IMO as med school enrollments are ramping up and residency spots are held relatively static the Carib schools are going to be in trouble as many of their students do not match. So IMO they can now either die off or try and follow the RVU model by establishing US branch sites. I do not think this is a good thing.
The allopathic LCME had the cajones to give Ross University the boot when they wanted to establish a branch campus in Wyoming in 1999:
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/30/u...-hopes-of-hanging-its-shingle-on-us-soil.html
I think the AOA would have been wise to follow suit.
How many more of these for-profit schools is the AOA going to accredit?

 

[just one]

The Flexner report was quite important in US medical education history - if you wish to remain ignorant about it that is your prerogative.
I think there have already been plenty of negative effects with RVU:
The AOA-COCA has lost some credibility IMO by accrediting a for-profit school.
I believe that the blood letting among the RVU faculty in the first year was not a benign situation.
The osteopathic medicine profession, which had come very far in reaching equality with allopathic medicine, I believe has suffered a black eye with the opening of RVU.
IMO as med school enrollments are ramping up and residency spots are held relatively static the Carib schools are going to be in trouble as many of their students do not match. So IMO they can now either die off or try and follow the RVU model by establishing US branch sites. I do not think this is a good thing.
The allopathic LCME had the cajones to give Ross University the boot when they wanted to establish a branch campus in Wyoming in 1999:
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/30/u...-hopes-of-hanging-its-shingle-on-us-soil.html
I think the AOA would have been wise to follow suit.
How many more of these for-profit schools is the AOA going to accredit?

Please redifine because all I am seeing is personal opinions, no facts about the correlation of RVU and negative impact into medicine

 

[MSSM2013]

Please redifine because all I am seeing is personal opinions, no facts about the correlation of RVU and negative impact into medicine

in physics and engineering, and sometimes in cell biology, a good way to think whether something has positive impact and negative impact is to take it to the extreme.

now, think of a scenario that's not very extreme at all. All the carribean school decide to establish US branch DO campuses because more USMD enrollment means more people going to MD school and less people going to second chance schools.

what ended up happening is that you will get the good ole carribean big four on mainland, but all are DO schools.

think how that will affect reputation of DO physicians.

 

[exPCM]

in physics and engineering, and sometimes in cell biology, a good way to think whether something has positive impact and negative impact is to take it to the extreme.

now, think of a scenario that's not very extreme at all. All the carribean school decide to establish US branch DO campuses because more USMD enrollment means more people going to MD school and less people going to second chance schools.

what ended up happening is that you will get the good ole carribean big four on mainland, but all are DO schools.

think how that will affect reputation of DO physicians.

Well stated!


P.S.
For-profit higher education is nothing new in America. Up through the 19th century, most doctors, lawyers, and accountants picked up their basic skills at schools that were out to make a buck. The army of typists and stenographers that midwifed the information age at the turn of the last century came pouring out of commercial institutions all over the country. One hundred years ago, most medical schools were still small trade operations run by practicing local or retired doctors as a way to supplement their income.

But in 1910, amid newspaper horror stories about quack doctors ("The Doctor Who Killed His Patients With Germs") and fears that the U.S. was falling behind the rest of the world ("Germany to Stop Quackery"), the Carnegie Foundation sent the prominent educator Abraham Flexner to survey the state of medical education in North America. The influential Flexner Report, which singled out Chicago's 14 mostly for-profit medical schools as "the plague spot of the nation," called for standardizing curriculum and dramatically reducing the overall number of diplomas issued. As a result, the 160 institutions that educated more than 28,000 med students in 1904 became 85 schools educating half that many in 1920.
http://reason.com/archives/2008/07/03/education-for-profit

 

[just one]

In the early 1900's the medical community (practices and regulations) were very different than today. If you honestly believe that comparison of medical education then versus today is warrantied, that is your opinion but I do not share it.

I get it now, we should condemn RVU for something that might or might not happen. Great got it, I'll leave this topic alone now. I like to condemn people only after they do something wrong.

 

[MSSM2013]

I like to condemn people only after they do something wrong.

so you gonna condemn drunk drivers only after they kill someone? sometimes it's very easy to tell that a system is messed up.

 

[exPCM]

In the early 1900's the medical community (practices and regulations) were very different than today. If you honestly believe that comparison of medical education then versus today is warrantied, that is your opinion but I do not share it.

I get it now, we should condemn RVU for something that might or might not happen. Great got it, I'll leave this topic alone now. I like to condemn people only after they do something wrong.

I guess we are supposed to assume that students will get great clinical training at hospitals without any residency programs and without any extensive prior history of educating 3rd and 4th year med students. I get it - we must assume the training at largely unproven sites will be spectacular.