Roe v Wade is rumored to be overturned soon.

[AMEHigh]

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This thread is starting to unravel, which usually happens on page 2 when abortion is the topic. So it's impressive it's made it this far.

Here's my attempt to keep it from going off the rails:

No one is going to change anyone's mind with this discussion. Everyone has already made up their mind, and no amount of logical arguments, appeals to ethics or morals, or any other debate process is going to change anyone's position. People do change their stance on the topic -- but that happens over long periods of time and from personal experiences in this area. So arguing with each other is pointless.

Many of the arguments here are attempts at verbal wordplay and "gotcha's". Trying to prove someone's strongly held belief is incorrect by trying to back them into a logical fallacy will not work. It just makes people angry, and then they lash out. Debating whether a zygote is a "human life" or a "ball of cells" is relatively pointless. Some people believe one of those, and some people believe the other. Neither can prove the other wrong. Both are certain the other is horribly wrong.

What we might be able to do is try to understand the other person's position / beliefs. I am pro-choice. I think a zygote is a ball of cells, and is not a human life. That's my belief. But I recognize that others feel strongly that a zygote is a human life. And if you believe that, then abortion would appear profoundly wrong. I can respect that opinion, and I can understand why people who feel strongly about this may want to make abortion illegal. I don't agree with it -- but I can see their point of view. Either viewpoint doesn't make someone a bad person. If you lose the ability to see the other side's point of view, the net result is usually demonization of the other side and the end of any healthy discourse.

And therein lies the challenge, for which I have no good answer. Some people believe abortion should be a choice. Some people believe it is wrong and would not choose it for themselves but feel that others should be free to do as they wish. And some people believe it is a wrong that is so bad, that no one should have the choice. The last group can't find any compromise / reconciliation with the others. They feel it is so wrong, they can't let others consider it at all. And although I disagree with them, I can see their point of view. To them, any downstream harms from outlawing abortion are much less concerning than abortion itself. I disagree -- but there's no universal scale on which to weigh decisions like this.

And because people feel so passionately about this issue, they are willing to fight for it with any tool available. And this will lead to crazy escalations on both sides. States are already starting to try to punish people who help others cross state lines for the procedure. What's sure to follow is pro-choice groups finding ways around this. I expect we will see attempts at creating abortion clinics on ships in the Gulf, or on Native American reservations. Would also be legal on any federal land - the USPS owns property, and I'm surprised that I haven't heard of someone suggesting using VA hospitals/clinics as abortion centers. All sorts of problems with all of these ideas. They are all terrible solutions which will only escalate the battle.

I have no good solution. Personally, I'd support legal abortion to the point of viability. Any cutoff is inherently arbitrary though -- if we say "20 weeks", there's no practical difference between 19w6d and 20w1d. But it seems wrong to me to allow abortions late term unless there are health issues for the mother (and in that case, early delivery may be an option). But I can see how others may see this as unacceptable.

I'd also support education and other measures to decrease the need for abortion overall as much as possible. But we don't live in a perfect world -- far from it. Given the world's imperfections, I think allowing abortion in early pregnancy is the better of the options available. You may disagree, and that's fine. I'd also prefer that the govt just stayed out of the decision completely -- although I acknowledge that results in the endpoint that I would prefer.

Yep I agree that it’s hard to change minds and I have no problem if someone is against abortion so they’ll never have one (but plenty of abortion protestors protest one day, then have abortions in the clinic the next day and go back to protesting, the hypocrisy). But it becomes obviously a huge problem when you are pushing your views, and hatred on other people that then ruins other people’s lives. In addition, many of the pro-birthers spread lies and coerce people, especially at fake clinics aka crisis pregnancy centers. The amount of lies that doctors are forced to tell patients because of bogus laws that politicians have passed is maddening (no having an abortion doesn’t cause cancer or affect your future fertility).

The problem with trying to argue about when a fetus is a human/has life is that regardless that fetus is still living inside of someone and causing physiological changes to that person’s body, some of which could be permanent and could lead to death. As someone who is currently pregnant it is rather maddening to see old white men in particular take away our rights when pregnancy is hell on our bodies, both physically and mentally. No one should be forced to remain pregnant if they don’t want to, end of story. If you don’t want to have an abortion then don’t and keep your lies, stigma and hatred to yourself.

ETA: and if you’re a medical professional, you don’t have to be an abortion provider, but you should be open to ALL options a patient might pursue when it comes to their health care and their bodies. It’s also so maddening to see health care professional trying to convince people to not have an abortion and lying to patients and being a road block.

 

[wholeheartedly]

You would think there would be some legal recourse here for these types of cases.

 

[Proudfather94]

Yep I agree that it’s hard to change minds and I have no problem if someone is against abortion so they’ll never have one (but plenty of abortion protestors protest one day, then have abortions in the clinic the next day and go back to protesting, the hypocrisy). But it becomes obviously a huge problem when you are pushing your views, and hatred on other people that then ruins other people’s lives. In addition, many of the pro-birthers spread lies and coerce people, especially at fake clinics aka crisis pregnancy centers. The amount of lies that doctors are forced to tell patients because of bogus laws that politicians have passed is maddening (no having an abortion doesn’t cause cancer or affect your future fertility).

The problem with trying to argue about when a fetus is a human/has life is that regardless that fetus is still living inside of someone and causing physiological changes to that person’s body, some of which could be permanent and could lead to death. As someone who is currently pregnant it is rather maddening to see old white men in particular take away our rights when pregnancy is hell on our bodies, both physically and mentally. No one should be forced to remain pregnant if they don’t want to, end of story. If you don’t want to have an abortion then don’t and keep your lies, stigma and hatred to yourself.

ETA: and if you’re a medical professional, you don’t have to be an abortion provider, but you should be open to ALL options a patient might pursue when it comes to their health care and their bodies. It’s also so maddening to see health care professional trying to convince people to not have an abortion and lying to patients and being a road block.

If they're doing that they need their license yanked. Lying to patients to get them to do the healthcare that you want is immoral af.

 

[AMEHigh]

If they're doing that they need their license yanked. Lying to patients to get them to do the healthcare that you want is immoral af.

Yep, it’s really bad. There are indeed doctors who are "medical directors" of fake clinics aka crisis pregnancy centers. Those places are evil. In my specialty there are online member interest groups and there’s a whole "pro-life" group and I sometimes read their posts and it’s really disturbing what they say/do by not providing full options to patients. Wish that were a reason to get your medical license taken away. There’s even a full "pro-life" obgyn professional group that spreads lies. So infuriating.

 

[Trefoil]

Sigh,

Well anyway. I guess this has more of less derailed, but I wanted to throw some interesting perspectives here that probably won’t change your mind (if you are pro-life), but perhaps should make you stop and think.

Point #1 pretty much every pro-life person in the United States is Christian. Christianity is an Abrahamic religion that is an outgrowth of Judaism.

Point #2 Jewish people are allowed to have abortions in their religion…the only mention of a similar situation in the Torah is in

Exodus 21:22-25​

Point #3 The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and it’s really the closest thing Christians might have as a guide to what “God’s opinion” might be.

Point #4 The specific guidance outlines what might happen in the case of the death of a fetus in a public brawl vs. the woman. If the woman dies, a life needs to be paid for with a life. If the fetus dies, the payment is a fine. This suggests that as one might assume, a fully developed human has more value.

Point #5 Lobbyists in the US decided to make this a political issue to polarize the right wing of the party from the left. Abortion was previously an uncontroversial procedure even among conservatives in the US.

Point #6 this explains why other Abrahamic religions do not have restrictions on abortion outside of Christianity. Muslims and Jewish people can have abortions.

Point #7 much like the prohibition, there is a flawed assumption that making something illegal means that people don’t do it…well, if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Prohibitions on abortion don’t stop abortion, they stop medically managed abortions. Abortion just becomes less safe leading to more death and injury, so if you are actually “pro-life” you should be pro abortion. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are stopping abortions by making them illegal. You are just making them unsafe.

If you take a whole picture view of the history of these things, it really makes it easier to see why abortion is a sad reality for some. Women who have abortions generally do so because they are in untenable situations and will fall into poverty without one. They will do whatever it takes to keep their fully developed children alive even if it means stopping the formation of another child.

 

[Proudfather94]

Sigh,

Well anyway. I guess this has more of less derailed, but I wanted to throw some interesting perspectives here that probably won’t change your mind (if you are pro-life), but perhaps should make you stop and think.

Point #1 pretty much every pro-life person in the United States is Christian. Christianity is an Abrahamic religion that is an outgrowth of Judaism.

Point #2 Jewish people are allowed to have abortions in their religion…the only mention of a similar situation in the Torah is in

Exodus 21:22-25​

Point #3 The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and it’s really the closest thing Christians might have as a guide to what “God’s opinion” might be.

Point #4 The specific guidance outlines what might happen in the case of the death of a fetus in a public brawl vs. the woman. If the woman dies, a life needs to be paid for with a life. If the fetus dies, the payment is a fine. This suggests that as one might assume, a fully developed human has more value.

Point #5 Lobbyists in the US decided to make this a political issue to polarize the right wing of the party from the left. Abortion was previously an uncontroversial procedure even among conservatives in the US.

Point #6 this explains why other Abrahamic religions do not have restrictions on abortion outside of Christianity. Muslims and Jewish people can have abortions.

Point #7 much like the prohibition, there is a flawed assumption that making something illegal means that people don’t do it…well, if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Prohibitions on abortion don’t stop abortion, they stop medically managed abortions. Abortion just becomes less safe leading to more death and injury, so if you are actually “pro-life” you should be pro abortion. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are stopping abortions by making them illegal. You are just making them unsafe.

If you take a whole picture view of the history of these things, it really makes it easier to see why abortion is a sad reality for some. Women who have abortions generally do so because they are in untenable situations and will fall into poverty without one. They will do whatever it takes to keep their fully developed children alive even if it means stopping the formation of another child.

Most of them know women will have abortions anyway, they just think that they attempted to murder a child and deserve death. When it comes to religion few people actually read the Bible. It's easier to have your pastor do it for you, and they get to add crap to the Bible that was never there.

 

[Dr Meow]

Yup I already explained the religion vs secular mentality in my previous post but the prolifers like to ignore that but instead they love to claim everything against their belief is an "ad hominem" attack. Just scroll back and count it.

 

[Proudfather94]

Idaho GOP rejects abortion exception to save mother's life. So the Idaho GOP is looking to modify the abortion trigger law that they have to exclude the threat to a mother's life as a reason to get an abortion. So if a pregnant woman comes in and it's an ectopic pregnancy are they just going to move her to hospice? Basically if they go out of state to get an abortion they can be arrested as still being alive is probably evidence enough to prove they had an abortion.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Idaho GOP rejects abortion exception to save mother's life. So the Idaho GOP is looking to modify the abortion trigger law that they have to exclude the threat to a mother's life as a reason to get an abortion. So if a pregnant woman comes in and it's an ectopic pregnancy are they just going to move her to hospice? Basically if they go out of state to get an abortion they can be arrested as still being alive is probably evidence enough to prove they had an abortion.

Did you read the article? “The Idaho Republican Party has rejected adding language to their platform to allow an abortion to save the life of the mother.” It literally goes on to say it has nothing to do with the law and only with rhetoric by that party.

“The party had on its agenda more than 30 resolutions and ended up approving less than half of them. One resolution that didn’t get approved included one already adopted by Texas Republicans that President Joe Biden isn’t the legitimate leader of the country.” 💀

 

[Dusn]

No. That child, although a unique individual, would have no potential for higher level brain functioning at anytime. THAT child would be the equivalent to the brain death discussion we were having. Their functioning will never change and has no potential to - which is why I think it’s fine to unplug a brain dead patient and allow them to complete the process of death.

My wife and I unfortunately had a situation with an incompatible with life fetus (a severe skeletal dysplasia causing a small rib cage and undeveloped lungs) and I was very surprised by how long it took two physicians to get an abortion in a liberal state (took almost a month to get on a schedule pre-roe because it was a second trimester abortion, despite my wife and I being physicians). Abortion for fetuses with severe abnormalities are now illegal in most of the states banning abortion.

Unfortunately abortion restrictions will only cause abortions to occur much later with fetuses that have more developed brains.

The abortion also had to be approved by all clinicians involved and the hospitals ethics committee. Let’s please just end the lie that abortions in second or third trimesters have ever been for anything but seriously medical issues with the mom or fetus.

 

[Proudfather94]

Did you read the article? “The Idaho Republican Party has rejected adding language to their platform to allow an abortion to save the life of the mother.” It literally goes on to say it has nothing to do with the law and only with rhetoric by that party.

“The party had on its agenda more than 30 resolutions and ended up approving less than half of them. One resolution that didn’t get approved included one already adopted by Texas Republicans that President Joe Biden isn’t the legitimate leader of the country.” 💀

That shows that their goal is to get rid of the exception of the mothers life when it comes to getting an abortion. If this happens other red states will follow and pregnant women with lethal pregnancies will have to decide to either die or go to jail.

 

[DarkBluMage]

That shows that their goal is to get rid of the exception of the mothers life when it comes to getting an abortion. If this happens other red states will follow and pregnant women with lethal pregnancies will have to decide to either die or go to jail.

That’s a stretch, all they did was reject adding words to their platform. The same words that were absent when their trigger law that included medical exceptions went into effect.

 

[Proudfather94]

That’s a stretch, all they did was reject adding words to their platform. The same words that were absent when their trigger law that included medical exceptions went into effect.

It's not a stretch that's their game plan. They announced what they want to do next. It isn't going to pass now, but the GOP will get it passed eventually, and other states will follow.

 

[DarkBluMage]

It's not a stretch that's their game plan. They announced what they want to do next. It isn't going to pass now, but the GOP will get it passed eventually, and other states will follow.

Lol if you say so

 

[Trefoil]

My wife and I unfortunately had a situation with an incompatible with life fetus (a severe skeletal dysplasia causing a small rib cage and undeveloped lungs) and I was very surprised by how long it took two physicians to get an abortion in a liberal state (took almost a month to get on a schedule pre-roe because it was a second trimester abortion, despite my wife and I being physicians). Abortion for fetuses with severe abnormalities are now illegal in most of the states banning abortion.

Unfortunately abortion restrictions will only cause abortions to occur much later with fetuses that have more developed brains.

The abortion also had to be approved by all clinicians involved and the hospitals ethics committee. Let’s please just end the lie that abortions in second or third trimesters have ever been for anything but seriously medical issues with the mom or fetus.

I’m so sorry to hear that. I heard from a similar situation at my medical school where the couple gave birth to a malformed baby due to not understanding it’s condition. They were offered the opportunity to terminate the pregnancy, but they were told that the child would be able to live without much of explanation of the condition. Apparently, the child was born severely microcephalic bordering on anencephaly such that it did not have any higher cortical structures. It lived for a year, but it suffered so much that it never stopped screaming. They considered putting it out of its misery or putting themselves out of their misery because of the amount of suffering it’s birth caused.

Anyone, who wants to ban abortion should hear them talk. They sued for not being informed about the reality of having a child with that condition. It was life in a superficial way, but not in the way that the child could experience any normal human emotions or feelings.

 

[Proudfather94]

I’m so sorry to hear that. I heard from a similar situation at my medical school where the couple gave birth to a malformed baby due to not understanding it’s condition. They were offered the opportunity to terminate the pregnancy, but they were told that the child would be able to live without much of explanation of the condition. Apparently, the child was born severely microcephalic bordering on anencephaly such that it did not have any higher cortical structures. It lived for a year, but it suffered so much that it never stopped screaming. They considered putting it out of its misery or putting themselves out of their misery because of the amount of suffering it’s birth caused.

Anyone, who wants to ban abortion should hear them talk. They sued for not being informed about the reality of having a child with that condition. It was life in a superficial way, but not in the way that the child could experience any normal human emotions or feelings.

To be honest, I think pro lifers on here are too cowardly to outright say this in case it comes back on them, but I don't think they care what the parents went through. As long as the baby has a shot to survive, they will put the family through anything, even if the baby has no col. I suspect if they were not worried of getting fired or dismissed from their schools for having their beliefs they would stop hanging out on the fringe and would tell us how they really feel about this issue.

 

[Dusn]

I’m so sorry to hear that. I heard from a similar situation at my medical school where the couple gave birth to a malformed baby due to not understanding it’s condition. They were offered the opportunity to terminate the pregnancy, but they were told that the child would be able to live without much of explanation of the condition. Apparently, the child was born severely microcephalic bordering on anencephaly such that it did not have any higher cortical structures. It lived for a year, but it suffered so much that it never stopped screaming. They considered putting it out of its misery or putting themselves out of their misery because of the amount of suffering it’s birth caused.

Anyone, who wants to ban abortion should hear them talk. They sued for not being informed about the reality of having a child with that condition. It was life in a superficial way, but not in the way that the child could experience any normal human emotions or feelings.

Unfortunately there are so many different genetic and developmental abnormalities that fetuses can have that ob-gyns often don't know what they're dealing with at first. Our initial, community Ob also seemed to be scared to even mention the word abortion -- we had to bring it up. And they offered additional testing that would take too long to result (the amniocentesis results took 2 months to come back, so I'm glad we didn't wait for that before deciding to terminate the pregnancy). The inital genetics counselor was misleading when she mentioned that it could be achondroplasia -- achondroplasia does not show up until well after the 20 week ultrasound. It turned out to be a spontaneous, lethal mutation called thanatophoric dystrophy (literally, translates to "death-loving dystrophy).

There's now a movement to even stop the term "incompatible with life" from being used. Restricting access to clear information is part of the anti-abortion agenda. They also send death threats to patients who publicize their stories about abortion, so that people don't understand these reasons to get abortions, they don't know how many of their friends have had abortions, and they don't realize that this is something that could affect them. They make it miserable for the doctors who perform abortions and constantly report them to the medical boards for frivolous reasons, so that very few ob-gyns are willing to perform abortions, even in liberal states.

We were lucky that we are physicians and have so many physician friends in radiology, peds, and obgyn who could advise us and could get additional opinions. We could also afford to then get an additional evaluation and the procedure done at a major academic hospital (which costed 10k because insurance did not cover it - due to the Hyde Amendment). I can easily see how a layperson could get a misleading diagnosis or have a correct diagnosis delayed well past the 24 week cut off for abortion in many states (even prior to the Dobbs decision).

Strangely, 20-24 weeks is considered to be the cut-off for viability even for fetuses that will never be viable.

 

[Trefoil]

Unfortunately there are so many different genetic and developmental abnormalities that fetuses can have that ob-gyns often don't know what they're dealing with at first. Our initial, community Ob also seemed to be scared to even mention the word abortion -- we had to bring it up. And they offered additional testing that would take too long to result (the amniocentesis results took 2 months to come back, so I'm glad we didn't wait for that before deciding to terminate the pregnancy). The inital genetics counselor was misleading when she mentioned that it could be achondroplasia -- achondroplasia does not show up until well after the 20 week ultrasound. It turned out to be a spontaneous, lethal mutation called thanatophoric dystrophy (literally, translates to "death-loving dystrophy).

There's now a movement to even stop the term "incompatible with life" from being used. Restricting access to clear information is part of the anti-abortion agenda. They also send death threats to patients who publicize their stories about abortion, so that people don't understand these reasons to get abortions, they don't know how many of their friends have had abortions, and they don't realize that this is something that could affect them. They make it miserable for the doctors who perform abortions and constantly report them to the medical boards for frivolous reasons, so that very few ob-gyns are willing to perform abortions, even in liberal states.

We were lucky that we are physicians and have so many physician friends in radiology, peds, and obgyn who could advise us and could get additional opinions. We could also afford to then get an additional evaluation and the procedure done at a major academic hospital (which costed 10k because insurance did not cover it - due to the Hyde Amendment). I can easily see how a layperson could get a misleading diagnosis or have a correct diagnosis delayed well past the 24 week cut off for abortion in many states (even prior to the Dobbs decision).

Strangely, 20-24 weeks is considered to be the cut-off for viability even for fetuses that will never be viable.

This is why the government should stay away from making decisions about reproductive care. The decisions are too complicated and nuanced to be adequately met by state law. I’m not sure why the framing is always “giving the right back to states.” They act as if it was the federal governments decision, but the actual decision making process was being made at the individual level. We’ve effectually given the government control over reproductive care which is completely insane given how policy is often written in ambiguous confusing ways.

 

[Proudfather94]

Unfortunately there are so many different genetic and developmental abnormalities that fetuses can have that ob-gyns often don't know what they're dealing with at first. Our initial, community Ob also seemed to be scared to even mention the word abortion -- we had to bring it up. And they offered additional testing that would take too long to result (the amniocentesis results took 2 months to come back, so I'm glad we didn't wait for that before deciding to terminate the pregnancy). The inital genetics counselor was misleading when she mentioned that it could be achondroplasia -- achondroplasia does not show up until well after the 20 week ultrasound. It turned out to be a spontaneous, lethal mutation called thanatophoric dystrophy (literally, translates to "death-loving dystrophy).

There's now a movement to even stop the term "incompatible with life" from being used. Restricting access to clear information is part of the anti-abortion agenda. They also send death threats to patients who publicize their stories about abortion, so that people don't understand these reasons to get abortions, they don't know how many of their friends have had abortions, and they don't realize that this is something that could affect them. They make it miserable for the doctors who perform abortions and constantly report them to the medical boards for frivolous reasons, so that very few ob-gyns are willing to perform abortions, even in liberal states.

We were lucky that we are physicians and have so many physician friends in radiology, peds, and obgyn who could advise us and could get additional opinions. We could also afford to then get an additional evaluation and the procedure done at a major academic hospital (which costed 10k because insurance did not cover it - due to the Hyde Amendment). I can easily see how a layperson could get a misleading diagnosis or have a correct diagnosis delayed well past the 24 week cut off for abortion in many states (even prior to the Dobbs decision).

Strangely, 20-24 weeks is considered to be the cut-off for viability even for fetuses that will never be viable.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. The layperson doesn't have a chance between the laws states are passing and physicians who are afraid of bringing up termination as a option even when the fetus isn't viable. If we were given false hope with a pregnancy and our child came into the world for a short time in extreme pain and agony my reality would shatter in a way that I don't know if I could ever come back from that.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Strangely, 20-24 weeks is considered to be the cut-off for viability even for fetuses that will never be viable.

This last line is heartbreaking.

Thank you for sharing this story. I am also very disturbed by the fact that life of the fetus never seems to be listed as an exception in proposed abortion legislation along with rape/incest/life of the mother. If we know a woman is not going to be bringing a conscious baby home from the hospital, I don't see any point of any abortion restrictions no matter how late she finds out. We should be looking at these events like hospice situations and focus on minimizing suffering. Imagine putting a woman through a c section to deliver a baby you know will be born dead or die shortly afterwards. To me, it should be unthinkable.