Ross Medical school

Started by gucci2513
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I'm an elitist because I like having the initials MD, being socioeconomically advantaged in having people (non doctors, women, etc) know I am a doctor right away. I will likely earn more money as a result of being an MD but that is not my focus in this thread. I don't care about what academics and namely, the intellectual opinions of pre-meds/future MDPHD folks are. No offense to them but I am not interested in being a hotshot academic champion or being referred to as 'smart' by folks, I'd just rather be private and wealthy and not care to jib-jab with doctors over conferences. I've discovered that nerds will dislike me for being the antithesis of what they imagine are suitable physicians. If you re-read the quote you have chosen to nitpick it says 'because that is what I wanted in the first place,' - my elitism is a result of setting a goal and going for it regardless of what I have to do. If I were more humble I would go DO or something otherwise. Get over it, you won't to find any holes in my argument(s).

Have a good one.

No holes in your argument? I don't really understand what you mean by that. You stated an opinion. If I said I love green and hate blue there would also be no holes in my argument, and that's essentially what you did. If, on the other hand, you were presenting an actual argument (this is better because...) then there are indeed holes in it.

I think the issue that a lot of people have with DO vs Carib MD is that the numbers show that as a rule, going Carib is the far riskier proposition. Of course there are personal motives that go into the decision- it's a very personal decision. But ultimately, if you're arguing reason and fact, then you can't say that SGU is the "better" option. Statistically, it isn't. Logically, it isn't.

It's true that not everyone in America knows what a DO is. I didn't really, until I shadowed at a hospital where I met a DO resident, and worked with another DO attending after graduating. However, the vast majority of patients don't find doctors the way they'd find any business. You don't google a psychiatrist in your area for the most part the way you'd find a good restaurant. The VAST majority of patients come to you as referrals from other physicians, or because you're available and under the umbrella of those patients' insurance. In that case, your degree is automatically irrelevant. No one asks because if their insurance says you're legit and their PCP says you're legit, you're legit. I mean, hell, you can just write "Dr. X" on your door and avoid the question when the patients come in to see you. With all of that being true, I imagine there are just as many people who have a problem with going to a DO after they find out that you are one, as there are people who have a problem with going to a doctor who couldn't get into a US med school.

Incidentally, if you have an issue with patients not knowing what a DO is, you might also have issues with residency directors not knowing or respecting your choice in med schools. Which WILL happen, even at SGU.

So ultimately, your choice to go to SGU instead of waiting an extra few months and trying again (including DO) is a "liking green instead of blue" one, which is perfectly legitimate. You are accepting the fact that you're statistically less likely to graduate (which I understand is a moot point because that has to do with how much work you actually put in), will be in a country far away from home, will not have nearly as much clinical exposure before the clinical years, will have to get a better board score than your US counterparts, will only be able to participate in the MD match which will be far more competitive then than it is now, and then will have more trouble actually matching considering the carib stigma. If you have accepted these facts, then you have made a personal decision on a personal matter using personal criteria, not factual ones.
 
Shrinks are psychologists, not psychiatrists. Define 'ton' and 'nobody' and I will be more inclined to understand this. If I open a private practice and patients look me up in a phone book or call my office, they will relate to me being an MD and not a DO. Maybe in 25 years I will take back this comment but until that time, I don't see why I would become a DO over an MD.

Second to the above - my anecdotal evidence is my entire family is in the field, my cousins, friends, uncles, they all are practicing MD psychiatrists and I guess their experiences tell me I would be fine whether I came from abroad or not.



Fair enough. It comes down to your choice, ultimately. Just don't come whining back here in 4 years if the match ends up having pushed most all FMGs out of US residencies.

Btw, though, shrinks are definitely not primarily psychologists. People generally refer to psychiatrists as "shrinks" far more often because they use meds to shrink you into their cookie-cutter models. Most mental health pts seem to have a lot more respect for their psychologists (who typically spend a lot more time w/ them) than they do their psychiatrists. Psychiatry is important but you will be a shrink so don't kid yourself about that.
 
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It's a good last resort. I'm going to "apply broadly" to MD and DO schools, then the top 4 Caribbean schools as a backup. There's no way I'm going to waste money on an SMP/post-bac and another application cycle if I don't get in the first time. Yes, the drop-out rate for the Caribbean is a lot higher, but that's because they aren't as selective as U.S. medical schools. In fact, U.S. medical schools are probably too selective. How many competitive applicants are rejected each year? If you are "borderline" competitive for U.S. schools and you can do the work, then the drop-out rates aren't too much of a problem.
 
It's a good last resort. I'm going to "apply broadly" to MD and DO schools, then the top 4 Caribbean schools as a backup. There's no way I'm going to waste money on an SMP/post-bac and another application cycle if I don't get in the first time. Yes, the drop-out rate for the Caribbean is a lot higher, but that's because they aren't as selective as U.S. medical schools. In fact, U.S. medical schools are probably too selective. How many competitive applicants are rejected each year? If you are "borderline" competitive for U.S. schools and you can do the work, then the drop-out rates aren't too much of a problem.

I think you aren't working on the same definition of "last resort" as a lot of people. Most people consider caribbean a great last resort if you can't, WITHOUT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF REMEDIATION (aka postbac or SMP) secure a US admission. Truth of the matter is that if you can't get in in the US, you can still have a reasonable shot at becoming a US doctor through an offshore school. But you close your door to a ton of competitive specialties and create a lot more hurdles for yourself by so doing. So an extra year of studying as a premed tends to be worth it for most.

I think you guys are confusing attrition stats with "dropping out" stats. People aren't just dropping out, many are actually failing out of the offshore schools. US schools are extremely selective precisely so they don't have to do this -- it is thought unfair to take $50k a year from someone and then throw them out so at the US schools, the gatekeeper is the adcom, and once you are in, 95% of those in will become doctors. At other locations and offshore schools in particular, the other approach is taken -- they are happy to let you in, let you try or fail, and take your money. you can go six digits into the hole and still end up failing out with no degree. Still more are held back one or more years while not being allowed to sit for the boards or unable to line up the rotations they need to graduate in a timely fashion. Meaning the year you "wasted" in a postbac could save you 2 years you waste trying to finish up at an offshore school. Statistically the attrition is absurdly higher in offshore schools (some places it's higher than a third of the class), the board pass rates are significantly lower, the match rates are significantly lower and the percentage of people who secure spots outside of the lesser competitive fields is significantly lower. You close a lot of doors.

So I agree with you that the offshore schools are a great "second chance" to still have a shot at becoming a doctor when other routes, after reasonable remediation attempts, fail you. But to jump to this before you get to that stage is not usually the right play. My hat is off to the offshore folks who make it through and secure their dream job. Because most of them don't, and the anecdotal examples don't really highlight the hurdles these folks overcame just to end up where most US med grads end up by default.
 
It's truly amazing to me how judgmental people can be. I agree with all the people above about how Rama would be in a far better position as far as residency matching if he were to go US MD or DO. However, to chastise Rama Kandra for his decision isn't fair. He shouldn't have to defend himself, but rather use this thread to convey his ideology in making this decision.

My parents are both FMGs who came to this country, and so are his. And I'm sure if you asked any other individual who has worked with an FMG you would quickly learn that the quality of a physician is measured by how much work they put in during medical school - not the institution they attend.

He has already informed us that he is interested in psychiatry - a field that isn't all that competitive, and shouldn't be too difficult to find a match spot in. I HIGHLY doubt that he will drop out of Ross or SGU - he has a 27 MCAT with a solid GPA. With a bit of luck this past cycle, he may have even gained entrance to a US MD school, or any DO school. What people in this thread don't seem to realize is that Ross is accepting students with 17 MCATs and 2.7 GPAs. These struggling students are the ones who tend to dropout. Rather than shoving data in his face (he seems very aware of the facts), I feel it would be far more interesting to use this case to learn about a different ideology - why someone would choose another route, as opposed to the consensus view of SDN.
 
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...These struggling students are the ones who tend to dropout. ...

Again, attrition isn't simply an issue of "dropping out" as much as an issue of "failing out", being eternally held back, and the like. Offshore schools do this. US schools, it's much more rare. Let's not warp the issue by suggesting that everyone who leaves an offshore school does so by choice. These are businesses which make their money by accepting a ton of people with the intention of only graduating a relatively manageable class 4 years later. Attrition (ie failing people out) is assumed in the business plan. The adcoms at these programs don't play the role of gatekeeper as the adcoms do in the US, it's a different, and less kind, philosophy. You either sink or swim once admitted, as opposed to the US where they cut out the sinkers before they have to drop a dime.
 
Again, attrition isn't simply an issue of "dropping out" as much as an issue of "failing out",

Please read the entirety of my post. You honestly believe a man who has a 27 MCAT and 3.5 GPA will "fail" out of medical school, when there are DO students at certain schools with 23 MCAT and 3.2 GPAs?

Don't become biased against FMGs. They receive generally the same medical education as any of us will as US MDs or DOs. Yes, you will struggle BIG time landing competitive specialities, but since psychiatry is what Rama wants, there is no problem with his decision.
 
Please read the entirety of my post. You honestly believe a man who has a 27 MCAT and 3.5 GPA will "fail" out of medical school, when there are DO students at certain schools with 23 MCAT and 3.2 GPAs?

Don't become biased against FMGs. They receive generally the same medical education as any of us will as US MDs or DOs. Yes, you will struggle BIG time landing competitive specialities, but since psychiatry is what Rama wants, there is no problem with his decision.


I find this post to be a sad testament to the current status and future of psychiatric medicine. It is no wonder our mental health care is so weak here in the States when it is pushed aside as a specialty for the weakest medical students and considered "easy" for the FMGs to enter.
 
I think the dropout and fail rate has to do with the amount of dreamers who attend carib schools. I'm guessing there are two types of people who go to carib. People who didn't have hot GPAs due to a bad early start but then turned into great students and people who had bad GPAs and still suck hardcore as a student. I think the latter is the majority. So just because the dropout/fail rate is high, that doesn't mean that everyone has to be part of that group. Every semester I know that only ~10% and ~20% of the class will get an A and B, respectively. Does that make me think that I won't get an A or B because only a small number of people do? Of course not. I know the type of student that I am and I know I won't be part of that 70% that gets something lower than a B. If you know what you're capable of and know you're not some dreamer with your head stuck in the clouds, than carib is not such a bad idea. Just know that you will have more doors closed and the doors that are open will be tough to get into. If you work hard, it doesn't have to be this game of chance that people try to make it out to be.
 
Well, I think it's easy to dismiss the people who "fail out" as simply unprepared or doomed from the start. But that's not always the case. Med school is REALLY not easy. Even if you've always been a kickass student, you have no guarantee that you'll be in the top of your class. Even at the Hopkinses and Harvards of this world, half the class is in the bottom 50%. Some of the top students of the nation will fail a test or two, maybe even a class. Do you think they were unprepared?
The issue is that the classes we take in med school are, for a lot of people, very different from undergrad classes. I find myself having to basically re-learn how to study. Some methods work for one class or one topic but not others, etc. So with all that I can definitely see how one could study and be ready to take on med school and still struggle a lot.
Thankfully, most US schools have a lot of systems in place to make sure people don't get lost in the shuffle. Classes are small so professors can keep track of the students. I know that if anyone in my class fails a test, he/she will receive an email from the course director with various resources, including meetings with the professors to discuss study strategies, counseling services, free tutoring, etc. Last year, a few people failed our anatomy class, so they re-worked it this year and lowered the passing grade. They have invested a lot in you, and they want you to succeed. And I can't tell you how heartening it is to know that. Med school is stressful enough without a) feeling like my classmates are hoping I'll fail and bring the average down, b) feeling like I have to not only pass, but also be at the top of the class in order to get a residency, and c) feeling like the school ITSELF is expecting a bunch of us to go before rotations anyway so their number 1 priority isn't to make sure we make it through. It doesn't promote class comraderie, and it just adds more stress to what is already an exhausting process.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I just think it's unfair to dismiss all the people who fail out as those with the low GPAs and MCATs who shouldn't have been accepted in the first place. Sure, it might be easier to think "well I have higher than average GPA and MCAT, so I'm sure I'll be fine" but it's not necessarily accurate.
 
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This whole thing is Law of the Jungle, LET. Eat or be eaten, f*ck or be f*cked. I know you inherently feel your support system is there for you, its not. I am sure all of the above you listed are available at SGU, not your amazing medical school which is, by the way, just as big a rip off as Ross.

People who fail, failed. You are also of the opinion that all people have equal potential, or that students with low GPAs are capable of going through medical school? No, they either were stupid or they had to change themselves to cope with the new grading and studying of medical school (rarer than you think). I am in fact, stupid because I was not admitted to USMD schools so far, but I am not here to feel smart, just get my degree and play golf with the senators daughter.

If 30 to 50% of my classmates at Ross are gone within two years they were not supposed to be there in the first place, bottom line. Call it what you want, but only the strong survive.

We both have our perspectives and I respect your feelings toward your schooling but lets get straight to the core about this fact: people who did well in HS and college, tend to also do well in most things academic. I am certain you can point to all your 28 MCAT buddies and prodigies who fell apart, but they are rare in comparison to what I am suggesting.
 
Well, I think it's easy to dismiss the people who "fail out" as simply unprepared or doomed from the start.

I never said they were doomed from the start. If you go to any Ross info session, you'll see them bring up a student who scored a 17 on the MCAT, and later 99th percentile on STEP1. People can turn their lives around. But I'm simply saying by probabilities, the majority of people who fail out performed VERY poorly in undergrad, and have sub-20 MCAT scores.

Thankfully, most US schools have a lot of systems in place to make sure people don't get lost in the shuffle. Classes are small so professors can keep track of the students.

What about DO schools like NYCOM or LECOM - huge classes.

I know that if anyone in my class fails a test, he/she will receive an email from the course director with various resources, including meetings with the professors to discuss study strategies, counseling services, free tutoring, etc. Last year, a few people failed our anatomy class, so they re-worked it this year and lowered the passing grade.

LET, with all due respect, SGU and Ross do have advisors you can talk to. Sure, they won't hold your hand through medical school as in the United States, but if you ever need someone to talk to about course advice, or methods of studying, there is going to be someone to talk to. I can't see Ross lowering the passing scores for entire courses - but then again, I don't know if this is helping students "succeed" as you describe, more so than it is to keep their graduation rate high.

They have invested a lot in you, and they want you to succeed. And I can't tell you how heartening it is to know that.

He has the drive for success and I am quite certain he won't let a bit of insecurity impede his goals.

Med school is stressful enough without a) feeling like my classmates are hoping I'll fail and bring the average down

This is true in a LOT of US MD schools, maybe not yours.

b) feeling like I have to not only pass, but also be at the top of the class in order to get a residency

Rama wants psychiatry. He'll get it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I just think it's unfair to dismiss all the people who fail out as those with the low GPAs and MCATs who shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.

But that's what the trend is. Most people who enter Ross with below 18-20 MCAT scores tend to fail out. Of course, high scoring MCAT students also fail out, but at a FAR lower rate than the sub-20 MCATers.


And let me say it again - US MD or DO is a far better way to go in my opinion (higher match rates and what not). I'm just saying we should respect Mr. Kandra's choices. He isn't doomed by any means. Let us all just mutually respect each other as future physicians.
 
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This whole thing is Law of the Jungle, LET. Eat or be eaten, f*ck or be f*cked. I know you inherently feel your support system is there for you, its not. I am sure all of the above you listed are available at SGU, not your amazing medical school which is, by the way, just as big a rip off as Ross.
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SOCIAL DARWINISM!!!!! Reality is the law of the jungle. Is who has the ability to be above the systems natural boundaries is the one who wins. Everyone else in the end loses. So you better be something special and be able to survive the heat and not die at ross i.e hot land.
 
This whole thing is Law of the Jungle, LET. Eat or be eaten, f*ck or be f*cked. I know you inherently feel your support system is there for you, its not. I am sure all of the above you listed are available at SGU, not your amazing medical school which is, by the way, just as big a rip off as Ross.

People who fail, failed. You are also of the opinion that all people have equal potential, or that students with low GPAs are capable of going through medical school? No, they either were in fact stupid or they had to change themselves to cope with the new grading and studying of medical school. I am in fact, stupid because I was not admitted to USMD schools so far, but I am not here to feel smart, just get my degree and play golf with the senators daughter.

If 30 to 50% of my classmates at Ross are gone within two years they were not supposed to be there in the first place, bottom line. Call it what you want, but only the strong survive.

We both have our perspectives and I respect your feelings toward your schooling but lets get straight to the core about this fact: people who did well in HS and college, tend to also do well in most things academic. I am certain you can point to all your 28 MCAT buddies and prodigies who fell apart, but they are rare in comparison to what I am suggesting.

Huh? I'm really confused by your post, so let me try to paraphrase and correct me if I'm wrong.

So you're saying that a) my school really doesn't have the support system I believe it has, and that b) everyone who fails in med school wasn't meant to get in to begin with and probably was on the lower end of the GPA scale.

well, a is wrong. I have no idea if you know what school I go to or if it really matters, but I know for a fact that you're wrong because a couple of my friends have already received that extra help. Not to mention the fact that one of my close friends is actually a former first year who is repeating first year because she failed anatomy. The school paid for her to get tutoring, gave her a research job for the summer so she could stay, and now I'm pretty sure she's in the top 10% of our class. This is an Ivy league grad with a 38 on the MCAT. I asked her why she had had trouble last year, and she said that 1) she panicked before every test which caused her to not focus, and 2) she studied anatomy "wrong", by either not going to the lab enough or focusing too much on the nitpicky stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that sounds like a lack of study skills, or intelligence. Unfortunately, you really won't know this until you're in med school, but it's DIFFERENT. It's not just "way more work" or "way more studying", and people who do poorly don't necessarily study LESS. They just don't study the correct way. When you've studied the same way your entire life and it's gotten you a 4.0 and a 38, you have no reason to think that you need to change the way you study entirely. In fact, in undergrad that would have been a stupid move.

Incidentally, as a personal anecdote, if my school didn't have anatomy along with physiology and a few other subjects, I'd most likely fail it. I have no depth perception so I can't see 3D and that screws me over a lot when it comes to recognizing things on the body or on CT scans and such. I'm also just not that great at rote memorization. On the other hand, I do extremely well in physiology, which has more to do with abstract thought and problem-solving. I'm telling you this because I know that if I were a school that graded anatomy alone, I'd basically be screwed. And if I weren't at a P/F school I'd also probably be screwed. I don't think I'm incompetent, as I do very well on my other subjects and did very well in our first block. Oh and my GPA wasn't great by the way.

I don't think everyone has the same potential. Not at all. And I'm sure that SOME of the people who fail out of Ross should have never been there in the first place. But I just think it's unfair to dismiss them all as idiots who didn't study enough. Again, you won't know this until you start school, but it's just not that simple.
 
And I'm sure that SOME of the people who fail out of Ross should have never been there in the first place. But I just think it's unfair to dismiss them all as idiots who didn't study enough. Again, you won't know this until you start school, but it's just not that simple.

Right, you say some of the people who fail out of Ross should have never been there - (a.k.a the 17 MCAT/2.5 GPA student). Yet you also say it's unfair to dismiss them as "idiots" who didn't study enough. I think it's quite clear that they didn't study enough, just based on their undergrad stats...

It's capitalism - everyone is given a shot. Some lose, some win.
 
It seems you have answered your own questions above, which you initially were confused about. This lead me to read just the first sentences of your paragraphs so I apologize for not reading it fully but I have made it clear that I believe support systems of the sort are mostly safety nets. You are not getting different treatment from too many other medical schools who I am sure would give their students this type of help.

If I am wrong, I'm wrong.
 
my two cents on this heated thread.

I have four family members who recently graduated from Ross and SGU. One was held for an extra year but eventually graduated. Things I have heard from all of them were that the 3rd/4th year rotations were very hit or miss. Some sites were so bad that they just stopped going b/c patients were being harmed by the severe lack of oversight and education, yet they still graduated even after skipping out on most of the rotation. None of them had great things to say about the education, it is what it is.

The overall consensus I've gotten from all of them is that it is defiantly a second tier education, but once you do residency your education is what other US graduates are getting. Once you have finished residency you are just as well trained as others from your program. For choice of residency programs as well all of them matched somewhere in the US (2 in NYC 1 in the midwest, 1 in southwest) but the UCLA's and Cornell's were not interviewing them or most of their classmates (even the stars).

For residency one matched to Anesthesia, one to psyc, and two in family. The ones having just finished, the job market currently for them is such that they have found job opportunities in NY city but all three have found it difficult to find anything desirable in the major Californian cites.

In the end they all are MDs and are practicing in the US. Which is what they wanted to be at the start. The deficit in opportunities does exist but they all have found jobs and are making a living. When asked about it by other family members making the Med decision they have all said that if realistically possible (via a SMP etc...) do a US program b/c of the opportunity constraints they have had to deal with. But if like them an extra year would not have given them a real shot at a US program then the Carib schools are a legitimate option.
 
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Hey everyone,

I was interested in applying for SGU or Ross for the Fall term of this year. Wanted to get an idea of the admissions process time frame. Am I late in the game at this point? When do the admission season end typically? (when they stop scheduling interviews and such) Thanks for any info!
 
my two cents on this heated thread.

I have four family members who recently graduated from Ross and SGU. One was held for an extra year but eventually graduated. Things I have heard from all of them were that the 3rd/4th year rotations were very hit or miss. Some sites were so bad that they just stopped going b/c patients were being harmed by the severe lack of oversight and education, yet they still graduated even after skipping out on most of the rotation. None of them had great things to say about the education, it is what it is.

The overall consensus I've gotten from all of them is that it is defiantly a second tier education, but once you do residency your education is what other US graduates are getting. Once you have finished residency you are just as well trained as others from your program. For choice of residency programs as well all of them matched somewhere in the US (2 in NYC 1 in the midwest, 1 in southwest) but the UCLA's and Cornell's were not interviewing them or most of their classmates (even the stars).

For residency one matched to Anesthesia, one to psyc, and two in family. The ones having just finished, the job market currently for them is such that they have found job opportunities in NY city but all three have found it difficult to find anything desirable in the major Californian cites.

In the end they all are MDs and are practicing in the US. Which is what they wanted to be at the start. The deficit in opportunities does exist but they all have found jobs and are making a living. When asked about it by other family members making the Med decision they have all said that if realistically possible (via a SMP etc...) do a US program b/c of the opportunity constraints they have had to deal with. But if like them an extra year would not have given them a real shot at a US program then the Carib schools are a legitimate option.

I'm not sure about the assertion that after residency, all the holes in your education will be all patched up. It's not unheard of to get kicked out/fired from your residency because your skills are so far behind. Once again, another large hurdle to consider.
 
I think Ross is worse off than SGU. Just found this article about ross...

Ross University School of Medicine may be the biggest medical school you've never heard of. For decades, the school on the Caribbean island of Dominica has been accepting U.S. students whose poor test scores make it impossible for them to get into medical schools in the States.
And though Ross is 1,500 miles from the mainland, U.S. residents who attend the school, and about two dozen other offshore medical schools, qualify for federal student loans.
That has meant more than $150 million a year in government-guaranteed aid for Ross, which has about 3,500 students, double the biggest U.S. medical school.
Ross and other foreign medical schools say they're responding to U.S. demand for new doctors as the population ages.
And there's no question that these schools have produced thousands of practicing physicians. There are more than 80 Ross graduates in the Tampa Bay area alone.
But federal regulators are taking a closer look at evidence suggesting taxpayers and students may be getting shortchanged by foreign medical schools.
• At Ross, fewer than one-third of the students finish in four years, compared to nearly 100 percent at U.S. medical schools.
• Since Ross, like other Caribbean medical schools, doesn't have a teaching hospital, it pays hospitals stateside for students' clinical training, with wide variations in quality.
• Students of foreign medical schools like Ross graduate with higher average debt, $235,000 compared to the average $158,000 owed by graduates of U.S. medical schools, according to an August report to Congress by regulators.
• About 20 percent of Ross graduates fail to land a residency, the key to a license to practice in the United States. If they cannot pay their student debts, taxpayers are left holding the bag.
Steven Moxley, a former Navy corpsman, graduated from Ross in 2005 but can't get a residency due to low test scores. Now 54, with $250,000 in unpaid loans, Moxley is working construction jobs in the Washington, D.C., area and renting a room from his son.
"I'm living hand-to-mouth," he said. "I've got debt out the ying-yang."

Started in a motel
Robert Ross, a commodities trader in New York, opened his medical school in 1978 in a motel in Dominica's capital at the suggestion of an employee whose son couldn't get into medical training in the States. By 2000, Ross had sold majority interest in both the medical school and an affiliated veterinary school in St. Kitts to a group of New York investors. Three years later, both schools were acquired by DeVry for $310 million.
Ross is the only offshore medical school owned by a publicly traded corporation, which must disclose more financial data than privately owned schools.
Last year, DeVry, better known for its tech training schools, reported $165.7 million in net income after taxes. But the company also reported an additional $140 million in tax-free income from the Ross operations.
In order to qualify for federal student loans, schools must report how many students default on their debt over the two years immediately after leaving school.
Ross says less than one percent of its medical students fail to pay their loans during this time frame, but critics question how meaningful that is.
"Lots of schools have developed very sophisticated hand-holding techniques to help their graduates or dropouts get through the two-year window without defaulting," said Barmak Nassirian, spokesman for the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. "The student can be making $5 a month payments and the school can come out looking fabulous."
Ross graduate Robb Holley, a pediatrician who is interim director of newborn medicine at Tampa General Hospital, expects to have no problem paying off his $200,000 in school loans but is not in a hurry.
"I could do it earlier, but I just bought a house," the 41-year-old Tampa native said.
The situation is different for Amer Alata, who got his M.D. from Ross in 2007, then quickly washed out of an internal medicine residency — and his prospects of becoming a physician. Now saddled with $470,000 in debt, he's teaching part-time but has never been able to afford a payment, making him one of Ross' official defaults.
"I'm in a state of paralysis," said Alata, 30, who lives outside Detroit. "The worst part is that I know I am not alone."
A spokeswoman for Ross, which has offices in North Brunswick, N.J., declined to discuss Alata's case but defended the institution's "high-quality education and successful student outcomes, comparable with U.S. medical schools."
"At a time when our country is in desperate need of quality physicians, they will help fulfill the unmet need and make important contributions to society," said Ross' Rebekah Herbison.

The curriculum
No one disputes that it's easier to get into Ross than a U.S. medical school. Ross accepts scores on the MCAT, the standardized test all medical school applicants must take, as low as 17, compared to an average of nearly 31 at U.S. medical schools.
Like all medical schools, Ross divides its four-year program into a basic science curriculum followed by hands-on clinical experience. But U.S. medical students usually spend two years in the classroom followed by two years in a teaching hospital on the same campus.
Ross students have 16 straight months of concentrated coursework on Dominica, followed by a fifth semester of intense test preparation in Miami or Saginaw, Mich. Once students pass Step 1 of the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam, they're assigned to two years of clinical rotations in hospitals around the country that have contracts with Ross.
Like U.S. medical students, once Ross enrollees complete their clinicals and pass another standardized exam, they graduate with an M.D. degree, then go on to post-graduate residency training before becoming a licensed physician.
Many Ross students don't make it that far. Even after six years, only 66 percent of entering students graduate.
Some students bail within days of arriving on Dominica, where there is little shopping and few restaurants. Others spend extra time on the remote island, repeating failed courses and running up debt. Ashley Sullivan, who had a 4.0 GPA during her two years at Ross, said one classmate was allowed to repeat three semesters he had failed. "He's a dear friend, but I'm not sure I'd want him taking care of me," she said.
Sullivan lost faith in her physician-educators at Ross after they misdiagnosed her swollen arm as an allergic reaction. When she returned home to Houston, doctors there discovered she had a massive blood clot. Once recovered, Sullivan returned to Dominica only to learn that Ross was reneging on a promise that she could do her clinical rotation in a Houstonhospital not officially affiliated with Ross.
"My confidence in Ross had been obliterated and so I left," she said.
Now $100,000 in debt, Sullivan, 29, is working in management consulting for oil and gas companies.
"I realized I wouldn't have been proud of myself if I graduated from Ross," said Sullivan, whose parents are helping with her loan repayments, keeping her out of the default category. "It was a horrible experience."

Hospital placement
After finishing their coursework and passing the USMLE Step 1 exam, Ross students vie for clinical rotations at more than 70 locations nationwide that contract with the school.
Michael Rendon, registrar at Ross from 2006 to 2007, said finding suitable clinical training sites was always a challenge.
"Clinicals is the school's Achilles' heel," said Rendon, now registrar at Texas A&M University at Corpus Christi. "There are simply not enough sites, and that problem is not going to go away anytime soon."
Anand Dasrath, 52, says he was forced out of Ross because of the shortage of clinical sites. A pharmacist from New York City, Dasrath finished his studies on Dominica with nearly a 3.0 GPA, but was told he flunked the semester in Miami, though he never received a formal grade.
Back working as a hospital pharmacist, Dasrath, who took on about $60,000 in loans for school, is suing Ross for age discrimination and breach of contract. His lawyer, Salvatore Compaccia, said, "Ross takes your money, then when it's time to place you in a hospital, they create an excuse to get rid of you."
A crisis arose in February when two New York hospitals where Ross had paid for 135 training slots closed, sending students scrambling. Graduates say there are always last-minute scheduling changes that can mean cross-country relocations and sites with widely disparate opportunities.
Students doing clinicals in the States continue paying tuition to Ross, which at more than $30,000 a year is comparable to that at private U.S. medical schools. Yet Ross students say they have virtually no contact with the school's faculty. That means they're on their own if problems arise.
Alata, the Detroit-area graduate, said he had a six-week psychiatry rotation supervised by a surgeon. "He gave me an assignment on cardiovascular disorders," Alata said. "I never had the opportunity to interview a psychiatric patient. There was no clinical experience whatsoever."
During training in Miami, Alata, who speaks no Spanish, was unable to communicate with most of the patients.
"Ross is supposed to monitor those sites, but in two years, I never saw anybody come to visit or ask me about them," he said.
Some students say they thrived despite the loose structure. Holley, the TGH pediatrician, said he sought out the toughest rotations and got valuable experience at his assignments.
"The patients I saw in New York City were from all over the world, and I saw all kinds of diseases I would not see in Tampa," he said. "I'm really glad I did it. It made for a well-rounded experience."
Dr. Mamatha Geddam, who recently joined a family medicine practice in St. Petersburg, also had all her Ross rotations in New York City. She said the students helped each other through.
"It would have been helpful to have an academic adviser because we were quite a big herd," she said. "But we learned from whoever had done it before."

Not ready for residency
Alata said he received "very high evaluations'' from supervisors during his clinical rotations in Miami, New York and Chicago and passed his mandatory USMLE Step 2 exam.
But three weeks into a residency in internal medicine and pediatrics at Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine, Alata was suspended from all clinical activities because of poor performance. A few months later he voluntarily withdrew.
"Once you start your residency, you find out how little you know," Alata said. "It was a complete shock when I sat down with the dean and she said I should go back to Ross and tell them how inadequate my training was."
Officials at the Virginia college declined to comment.
Directors of residency programs at the University of Florida College of Medicine in Jacksonville and Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg, both of which have accepted Ross graduates, said they've seen these students succeed.
"Once they're here, we're in training mode and they do fine," said Dr. David Parrish, head of family practice residency at Bayfront, which has three Ross grads.
But Dr. Peter Fabri, former dean of graduate medical education at USF College of Medicine, said his school has had a different experience.
"The quality of clinical education Ross students get is very, very unpredictable," said Fabri, a professor of surgery who retired as dean in September. "We've had some Ross students whom I'm told are superb, but we've also had a number from Ross who ended up being dismissed because they just didn't have it. And it's rare that any residents are dismissed."

More schools coming
Fabri, who has served on national commissions on graduate medical education, said students from foreign medical schools are going to be at a growing disadvantage.
Five new U.S. medical schools, including the University of Central Florida and Florida International University, have begun enrolling students and four more schools are in the permitting process. Those new graduates will make it tougher to get residency slots, which have not increased.
"I have not encouraged our program directors to take students from Caribbean schools," Fabri said. "And now that the competition is greater, I'm telling them to be very, very thoughtful."
In a report to Congress in August, the group that accredits offshore medical colleges recommended that the schools raise standards and improve reporting on everything from test scores to graduation rates to total cost.
Rendon, the former Ross registrar, said he agrees with the need to stiffen entrance requirements.
"We want doctors but we can't give that kind of money to everyone who's chasing a dream of being an M.D.," he said. "We need to be a little bit more discriminating about who those tax dollars go to."


http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece
 
SGU > Ross, if only because I have seen two SGU graduates in practice and only one Ross graduate, and the Ross one is worse.

(Sample of size of 3 ftw.)
 
Huh? I'm really confused by your post, so let me try to paraphrase and correct me if I'm wrong.

So you're saying that a) my school really doesn't have the support system I believe it has, and that b) everyone who fails in med school wasn't meant to get in to begin with and probably was on the lower end of the GPA scale.

well, a is wrong. I have no idea if you know what school I go to or if it really matters, but I know for a fact that you're wrong because a couple of my friends have already received that extra help. Not to mention the fact that one of my close friends is actually a former first year who is repeating first year because she failed anatomy. The school paid for her to get tutoring, gave her a research job for the summer so she could stay, and now I'm pretty sure she's in the top 10% of our class. This is an Ivy league grad with a 38 on the MCAT. I asked her why she had had trouble last year, and she said that 1) she panicked before every test which caused her to not focus, and 2) she studied anatomy "wrong", by either not going to the lab enough or focusing too much on the nitpicky stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that sounds like a lack of study skills, or intelligence. Unfortunately, you really won't know this until you're in med school, but it's DIFFERENT. It's not just "way more work" or "way more studying", and people who do poorly don't necessarily study LESS. They just don't study the correct way. When you've studied the same way your entire life and it's gotten you a 4.0 and a 38, you have no reason to think that you need to change the way you study entirely. In fact, in undergrad that would have been a stupid move.

Incidentally, as a personal anecdote, if my school didn't have anatomy along with physiology and a few other subjects, I'd most likely fail it. I have no depth perception so I can't see 3D and that screws me over a lot when it comes to recognizing things on the body or on CT scans and such. I'm also just not that great at rote memorization. On the other hand, I do extremely well in physiology, which has more to do with abstract thought and problem-solving. I'm telling you this because I know that if I were a school that graded anatomy alone, I'd basically be screwed. And if I weren't at a P/F school I'd also probably be screwed. I don't think I'm incompetent, as I do very well on my other subjects and did very well in our first block. Oh and my GPA wasn't great by the way.

I don't think everyone has the same potential. Not at all. And I'm sure that SOME of the people who fail out of Ross should have never been there in the first place. But I just think it's unfair to dismiss them all as idiots who didn't study enough. Again, you won't know this until you start school, but it's just not that simple.

I absolutely agree with what LET is saying. It's hard for me to describe what medical school is like to someone who hasn't attended it. You basically have a 100 people from all different backgrounds, schools, and majors coming together and doing nothing but studying for exams day in and day out. Whatever disparaty in terms of undergrad GPA or MCAT one person has over another go right out the door. I know some people with phenomenal undergrad records who are struggling and remediating or failing classes. I also know people who barely got in who are doing phenomenally well. It really comes down to how good someone is at studying and how much effort that person is willing to put in to succeed.

I think it's absoultely preposterous to equate high undergrad GPA or MCAT score with success in medical school. A person may have gotten a low MCAT because their undergrad school didn't have a strong premedical curriculum or they may have a low undergrad GPA because they were involved in various clubs and activities outside of class. People on SDN (especially premeds) place too much emphasis on undergrad GPA and MCAT and use that to define a person's "worth" and potential only to be greatly dissappointed once they get to med school. The med schools admissions people are great at figuring out who will likely make it through medical school and graduate, but they don't claim to be able to predict who will honor their classes and who will be barely passing (or remediate it).

As for Rama's comment that some people are stupid and don't have potential and that it's law of the jungle out there. Well, part of it is true. In medical school, as in life in general, the more you can rely on yourself, the better off you'll be. No matter what medical school you go to (US medical school or Carribbean medical school, large school, small school) you really have to put in the time and effort otherwise you will fail. Even though the administration will give you a second chance or allow you to repeat MS1, if you don't put in effort and you fail again - it's game over. They'll ask you to leave. The problem is that the people who fail aren't the ones who you'd think would fail. Obviously, there are the 3.0 and 25 MCAT individuals who fail, but there are also the 3.9 and 38 MCAT as LET described with her friend. I don't think anyone would call those people (the ones with the 3.9 and 38 MCAT) stupid - I think it's because they just never got the "hang" of medical school or figured out how to study for a certain class. To say that only "stupid" people fail medical school is a gross oversimplification and quite frankly, if you were the one who failed out of medical school, you would have a very, very different opinion.
 
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my two cents on this heated thread.

I have four family members who recently graduated from Ross and SGU. One was held for an extra year but eventually graduated. Things I have heard from all of them were that the 3rd/4th year rotations were very hit or miss. Some sites were so bad that they just stopped going b/c patients were being harmed by the severe lack of oversight and education, yet they still graduated even after skipping out on most of the rotation. None of them had great things to say about the education, it is what it is.

The overall consensus I've gotten from all of them is that it is defiantly a second tier education, but once you do residency your education is what other US graduates are getting. Once you have finished residency you are just as well trained as others from your program. For choice of residency programs as well all of them matched somewhere in the US (2 in NYC 1 in the midwest, 1 in southwest) but the UCLA's and Cornell's were not interviewing them or most of their classmates (even the stars).

For residency one matched to Anesthesia, one to psyc, and two in family. The ones having just finished, the job market currently for them is such that they have found job opportunities in NY city but all three have found it difficult to find anything desirable in the major Californian cites.

In the end they all are MDs and are practicing in the US. Which is what they wanted to be at the start. The deficit in opportunities does exist but they all have found jobs and are making a living. When asked about it by other family members making the Med decision they have all said that if realistically possible (via a SMP etc...) do a US program b/c of the opportunity constraints they have had to deal with. But if like them an extra year would not have given them a real shot at a US program then the Carib schools are a legitimate option.

Yeah, that's about right from what I heard from my relatives. Once you get through residency, you're equal to any US graduate. That being said, going to an off-shore or foreign medical school will limit the number of residency and fellowship opportunities that you can get. And the clinical sites where you do your rotations will have a significant impact on how well you do during residency so the carribbean school stigma may very well be due to the subpar rotations sites where the vast majority of 3rd and 4th year rotate.
 
I remember the days (back in freshmen year) when I thought getting into medical school was, if not impossible...extreemly competitive. But now the fact that pretty much anyone can backdoor their way into an MD without putting in an ounce of work or preparation before med school, I think differently.
 
I agree with rockaction on the attrition rate. I remember reading an article a year ago, and these were the stats.

33% graduated after 4 years in medical school.
66% graduated after 6 years in medical school.

The 6 years is a combination of failing out, and not being able to find rotations in sequenced time slots through the year.

80% who graduate match.

So lets see, .8 x.33 = 26.4% match.

Unless of course, you want to WASTE 6 years in medical school.
 
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