Rotating internship - losing specialists, concern for specialty apps this cycle

[minivet26]

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Hi everyone!

I started my SA rotating internship in June; very long story short, it is NOT what was described on VIRMP or at all what my interview had marketed. Several specialists have left the hospital, I’ve already been left by myself on overnights, and overall I’m just feeling really horrible about how it is going to serve me in this upcoming VIRMP cycle.

I’m hoping to specialize in surgery. At the time of my interview, the practice had 4 surgeons. We now have 2, one of which will be leaving soon on paternity leave. We went from 4 criticalists to 2, have lost our radiologist, anesthesiologist, ophthalmologist, one of 3 internists (who was also internship director), went from 12 ER docs to 4, and are losing a ton of techs & support staff. It feels like the interns are being left to pick up everything and getting blamed for things not running as smoothly as people are used to.

We are given 3 weeks of electives, broken up throughout the year so no time to consecutively spend anywhere else to get another LOR from a surgeon or visit other hospitals. I feel like I’m watching my chances at a specialty internship slowly fade in front of my eyes. I don’t know what to do. I was vocal in every interview about my goals and not wanting to be used as cheap ER labor with no support or teaching. I ranked this place because they had promised that wouldn’t be the case and that I would have close support from the surgeons. The first time I met my interviewer in person after starting, she apologized to me and said “I promise I didn’t lie, things were better a few months ago”.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? Where do I go from here? Should I be talking to VIRMP? Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[supershorty]

I'm sorry you're in this situation. Rotating internship is a stressful enough time without an attending exodus on top of it.

Tagging @katiemcat as she has very recently gone through a similar experience, though despite my best efforts, I can't get her interested in being a surgeon. Tagging @gartersotter because they're already a surgeon and know things about things.

Do you have any sort of mentor assigned to you at this internship who can give you some guidance about how best to move forward? You're probably correct in thinking that this may make your road to being a surgeon more difficult in this more immediate period, but on the other hand, there are so many specialty internships you can apply for. It may be more likely that you end up in the boat of people who do more than one specialty internship in pursuit of a residency - but that's a lot of people and nothing to be ashamed of, if that is what happens.

 

[JaynaAli]

I don’t want this to come across as me minimizing your struggles because it absolutely does suck when there’s so much turnover and tumult in a program, but a similar thing happened during both my internship and residency and things turned out okay. My internship program lost both internists the first week then all ER docs but one left a couple months later and we weren’t supposed to ever be alone as interns…they did their best and the remaining ER doc actually worked a crazy number of consecutive shifts (like 60 before she took a night off, do not recommend) and they tried to hire locums, but eventually they did have to make us interns be alone. We got through it. In residency, the turnover actually ended up being a boon in a way because we had a bunch of locums come in and it really expanded my network in the specialty. Obviously your situation is different than that and it definitely sucks but hopefully you can make it through if you decide staying is the right move. I doubt VIRMP would/can do much. But if you stay and do well, you may get even better reviews from existing staff for surviving the chaos. This may change things but it doesn’t mean it’s the end, whether you stay or try to find something different.

 

[katiemcat]

Hi everyone!

I started my SA rotating internship in June; very long story short, it is NOT what was described on VIRMP or at all what my interview had marketed. Several specialists have left the hospital, I’ve already been left by myself on overnights, and overall I’m just feeling really horrible about how it is going to serve me in this upcoming VIRMP cycle.

I’m hoping to specialize in surgery. At the time of my interview, the practice had 4 surgeons. We now have 2, one of which will be leaving soon on paternity leave. We went from 4 criticalists to 2, have lost our radiologist, anesthesiologist, ophthalmologist, one of 3 internists (who was also internship director), went from 12 ER docs to 4, and are losing a ton of techs & support staff. It feels like the interns are being left to pick up everything and getting blamed for things not running as smoothly as people are used to.

We are given 3 weeks of electives, broken up throughout the year so no time to consecutively spend anywhere else to get another LOR from a surgeon or visit other hospitals. I feel like I’m watching my chances at a specialty internship slowly fade in front of my eyes. I don’t know what to do. I was vocal in every interview about my goals and not wanting to be used as cheap ER labor with no support or teaching. I ranked this place because they had promised that wouldn’t be the case and that I would have close support from the surgeons. The first time I met my interviewer in person after starting, she apologized to me and said “I promise I didn’t lie, things were better a few months ago”.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? Where do I go from here? Should I be talking to VIRMP? Any advice is greatly appreciated

I was in this almost exact situation earlier this year and chose to leave my internship. Commenting now to remind myself to come leave a longer comment when I’m home. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

 

[katiemcat]

I'm sorry you're in this situation. Rotating internship is a stressful enough time without an attending exodus on top of it.

Tagging @katiemcat as she has very recently gone through a similar experience, though despite my best efforts, I can't get her interested in being a surgeon. Tagging @gartersotter because they're already a surgeon and know things about things.

Do you have any sort of mentor assigned to you at this internship who can give you some guidance about how best to move forward? You're probably correct in thinking that this may make your road to being a surgeon more difficult in this more immediate period, but on the other hand, there are so many specialty internships you can apply for. It may be more likely that you end up in the boat of people who do more than one specialty internship in pursuit of a residency - but that's a lot of people and nothing to be ashamed of, if that is what happens.

Well shorty I’m supposed to do a splenectomy this month so the tides may be changing 😂

 

[katiemcat]

OK so - I started a rotating internship in early June. I thought I had done my due diligence externing at this place during my 3rd year to get a feel for the place. It was great. Interns had fantastic things to say. They were working usually 12 hour shifts 4 days a week. Teaching seemed to be important.

It started with us not getting our schedules until one day before starting. When we got them there were extra ER shifts than what was published on VIRMP. There was also months over overnight straight when on VIRMP it stated 1 per month max. We were also being made to drive 1 hour to a satellite location for some rotations. That was my first rotation for 5 weeks, despite VIRMP saying this would happen 5 days a month max. I showed up to this location and no one knew who I was. No one introduced themselves. Finally a kind tech showed me around. Most of them gave me the silent treatment though for some reason. Then we were told that we had to come in on days off even if we had no hospitalized patients for teaching rounds. Some rotations this meant i would have 0 days off. One of my internmates was thrown onto ER solo with no training. We were supposed to have previous interns to shadow the first week and that just did not happen for most of us. One of my internmates got one single rotation of the speciality she is pursuing, while i got 4 (and I requested to only have 1). They were largely inflexible about this despite quite literally springing it on us.

I get a month in of working 60+ day weeks. I was coming home daily at 8-9pm and having to talk myself off of the ledge of waking up at 5:30am to make it there again in time for 7am rounds. I was not learning. I felt like an ER workhorse making 1/3 the pay. My internmates were also unhappy, but sure nothing could be done. Finally I decided I needed to say something because I was at my breaking point. I sent a very respectful email to the PM listing my concerns about what was expected of the internship and my reality. No answer for days. One of my internmates texts me they know she read the email because she was loudly ranting about it to the APM. At that point I decide I'm done. I let the criticalist know I won't be returning the next day as I didn't want no one to show up to help her (yes this service was me a new grad with no training, a criticalist, and one technican.) She is confused and asks why. I explain and she asks to see my schedule and is confused saying this isn't the schedule the specialists agreed with PM on and she added extra ER days. She tells me not to come in but she will talk to PM also because this is concerning. They send me an AI generated email about how they are taking my concerns seriously and then return to not answering. I get to Sunday night and the thought of going back is sending me spiraling and I'm having dark thoughts. I send in my resignation.

Eventually I speak to PM and APM who of course immediately answer that email. To be frank, it was all corporate talk barely trying to disguise dismissing my concerns. She stated that VIRMP listings are just guidelines / averages of what to expect. That the extra shifts were because "the needs of the hospital changed" aka all of their ER DVMs quit due to mistreatment and they needed to use interns to cover the shifts. That satellite location was most severely affected so thats why theres more rotations there now. How she isn't responsible for how poorly run satellite location is. How "sink or swim" and "long hours" are just how internships are. They never apologized or asked how they could make things right.

In regard to contacting VIRMP - I didn't do that solely because there is no stipulation that programs have to be held to what they promise like in med school match unfortunately. It's just really scummy when they don't. It is really unfortunate how these programs prey on people to essentially just run their ERs for cheap.

I checked my email looking for a document just this past week and the PM had sent an 8+ paragraph essay to all staff berating them, so I don't think much has changed since I left. There were also 20+ unfilled ER shifts still.

I recently accepted a job at a general practice for great money and amazing work life balance. After talking to my mentor from school - we concluded it was best for me to do a few years in GP and then revisit speciality (this is what she did.)

I can't tell you what's best for you, but I just want to let you know you have the right to be upset and to grieve the internship experience you were promised. If you decide that this position isn't serving you, there are always alternative ways back to speciality. I could not justify being so miserable I didn't want to be a vet anymore for no learning and poor pay.

 

[supershorty]

For what it's worth though - and don't take this as me endorsing this, but it is a reality of many training programs - I don't think it's that unusual for interns to be alone overnight after the first month or so. That's how my program did it when I was a rotating (though I think they've since changed that so at least most nights, interns aren't completely alone). And while yes, it was scary sometimes, it also made good doctors who were comfortable making the decisions that needed to be made.

There should always be faculty backup available by phone, but I don't personally feel that being alone on an overnight shift as a rotating intern is something that should come as a surprise at any program. Not that this is the major problem with what you've described, but I've noticed it being brought up by multiple people across threads over the last few months.

 

[JaynaAli]

I think a lot of how much supervision interns get is market driven and somewhat regional, or at least it was when I was an intern. The area I worked in was oversaturated with private ER clinics and was 10 miles from a major vet school, so there was a lot of competition for referral business. Our practice’s “niche” they marketed to area practices was that interns were never alone (with an implied ‘unlike at that vet school over there’), that the neurologist was willing to run her MRI 24/7, and the boarded surgeons did all the required after hours surgeries. And the surgeons could usually get patients in for surgery within a week if not within 2 days, no huge waiting list like at the vet school. But where I went to school and live now, there isn’t that competition and interns being alone would be much more normal.

But regardless, if you choose a place because they say interns won’t be alone then suddenly change that in you it isn’t fair, even if interns being alone is pretty normal other places.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

OK so - I started a rotating internship in early June. I thought I had done my due diligence externing at this place during my 3rd year to get a feel for the place. It was great. Interns had fantastic things to say. They were working usually 12 hour shifts 4 days a week. Teaching seemed to be important.

It started with us not getting our schedules until one day before starting. When we got them there were extra ER shifts than what was published on VIRMP. There was also months over overnight straight when on VIRMP it stated 1 per month max. We were also being made to drive 1 hour to a satellite location for some rotations. That was my first rotation for 5 weeks, despite VIRMP saying this would happen 5 days a month max. I showed up to this location and no one knew who I was. No one introduced themselves. Finally a kind tech showed me around. Most of them gave me the silent treatment though for some reason. Then we were told that we had to come in on days off even if we had no hospitalized patients for teaching rounds. Some rotations this meant i would have 0 days off. One of my internmates was thrown onto ER solo with no training. We were supposed to have previous interns to shadow the first week and that just did not happen for most of us. One of my internmates got one single rotation of the speciality she is pursuing, while i got 4 (and I requested to only have 1). They were largely inflexible about this despite quite literally springing it on us.

I get a month in of working 60+ day weeks. I was coming home daily at 8-9pm and having to talk myself off of the ledge of waking up at 5:30am to make it there again in time for 7am rounds. I was not learning. I felt like an ER workhorse making 1/3 the pay. My internmates were also unhappy, but sure nothing could be done. Finally I decided I needed to say something because I was at my breaking point. I sent a very respectful email to the PM listing my concerns about what was expected of the internship and my reality. No answer for days. One of my internmates texts me they know she read the email because she was loudly ranting about it to the APM. At that point I decide I'm done. I let the criticalist know I won't be returning the next day as I didn't want no one to show up to help her (yes this service was me a new grad with no training, a criticalist, and one technican.) She is confused and asks why. I explain and she asks to see my schedule and is confused saying this isn't the schedule the specialists agreed with PM on and she added extra ER days. She tells me not to come in but she will talk to PM also because this is concerning. They send me an AI generated email about how they are taking my concerns seriously and then return to not answering. I get to Sunday night and the thought of going back is sending me spiraling and I'm having dark thoughts. I send in my resignation.

Eventually I speak to PM and APM who of course immediately answer that email. To be frank, it was all corporate talk barely trying to disguise dismissing my concerns. She stated that VIRMP listings are just guidelines / averages of what to expect. That the extra shifts were because "the needs of the hospital changed" aka all of their ER DVMs quit due to mistreatment and they needed to use interns to cover the shifts. That satellite location was most severely affected so thats why theres more rotations there now. How she isn't responsible for how poorly run satellite location is. How "sink or swim" and "long hours" are just how internships are. They never apologized or asked how they could make things right.

In regard to contacting VIRMP - I didn't do that solely because there is no stipulation that programs have to be held to what they promise like in med school match unfortunately. It's just really scummy when they don't. It is really unfortunate how these programs prey on people to essentially just run their ERs for cheap.

I checked my email looking for a document just this past week and the PM had sent an 8+ paragraph essay to all staff berating them, so I don't think much has changed since I left. There were also 20+ unfilled ER shifts still.

I recently accepted a job at a general practice for great money and amazing work life balance. After talking to my mentor from school - we concluded it was best for me to do a few years in GP and then revisit speciality (this is what she did.)

I can't tell you what's best for you, but I just want to let you know you have the right to be upset and to grieve the internship experience you were promised. If you decide that this position isn't serving you, there are always alternative ways back to speciality. I could not justify being so miserable I didn't want to be a vet anymore for no learning and poor pay.

I hate that you had to go through this, but I love that you were able to advocate for yourself and make the right choice for your physical health, mental health, and overall career journey. Not to sound morbid (although as a pathologist that's part and parcel of how we sound sometimes) you may well have made the right choice for your own life, if you catch my meaning. The way interns and residents are treated in some places is terrible. It is one thing to be worked incredibly hard - that happens all the time and is to be expected in an internship. However, it's another thing to be worked incredibly hard while being given no/minimal guidance or mentorship, being lied to about what the program was advertised as, and being driven into the ground. That's not making a doctor, that is exploiting cheap labor to the detriment of that person's future career. The PM strikes me as a "I suffered so you should get used to suffering too" type.

 

[katiemcat]

I hate that you had to go through this, but I love that you were able to advocate for yourself and make the right choice for your physical health, mental health, and overall career journey. Not to sound morbid (although as a pathologist that's part and parcel of how we sound sometimes) you may well have made the right choice for your own life, if you catch my meaning. The way interns and residents are treated in some places is terrible. It is one thing to be worked incredibly hard - that happens all the time and is to be expected in an internship. However, it's another thing to be worked incredibly hard while being given no/minimal guidance or mentorship, being lied to about what the program was advertised as, and being driven into the ground. That's not making a doctor, that is exploiting cheap labor to the detriment of that person's future career. The PM strikes me as a "I suffered so you should get used to suffering too" type.

You are completely right. I was trying not to emotional dump too much - but I was getting to the point I didn’t want to do my life anymore and I felt like I made a giant mistake going to vet school at all. I wasn’t learning. Cases that would usually excite me elicited nothing. I was numb.

This PM started flexing about how much money she had the first time I met her, so I got the impression it was about saving the hospital money (and earning her a bonus in the process) but of course I can’t prove anything.

We were also told we would be assigned a mentor - that never happened.

I’m not quite sure why they picked this year to completely change the program, but it is what it is. I’m very glad I left. The moment I quit I felt nothing but immense relief.

It makes me sad programs do this to people too, but I’m finding my experience isn’t a unique one.

 

[katiemcat]

For what it's worth though - and don't take this as me endorsing this, but it is a reality of many training programs - I don't think it's that unusual for interns to be alone overnight after the first month or so. That's how my program did it when I was a rotating (though I think they've since changed that so at least most nights, interns aren't completely alone). And while yes, it was scary sometimes, it also made good doctors who were comfortable making the decisions that needed to be made.

There should always be faculty backup available by phone, but I don't personally feel that being alone on an overnight shift as a rotating intern is something that should come as a surprise at any program. Not that this is the major problem with what you've described, but I've noticed it being brought up by multiple people across threads over the last few months.

I don’t think that’s abnormal either, just that it was the first day.

 

[katiemcat]

Also to add - I had a classmate leave a very well known private rotating for similar reasons.

 

[gartersotter]

Thanks @supershorty for the ping.

This is a tricky situation. Others have given you good advice on whether what you're dealing with is appropriate or fair and also given you some context on similar situations they've observed or experienced. I want to give you a transparent perspective for someone who wants to be a surgeon. You should not quit this internship if your goal is to be a surgeon. I think things would really have to go topsy turvy to justify quitting. You still have multiple specialists that will hopefully be able to write strong letters and this will ultimately lead to a great personal statement and topic for interviews about how you had to be creative, motivated, dedicated, etc. You can talk about how you learned to use multiple resources, lean on colleagues and mentors outside of your internship to demonstrate that you are excellent at information gathering all while prioritizing patient care. You can talk about the overwhelming workload and how you know that this has prepared you for a residency level of work because you are now doing the work of multiple more seasoned clinicians when you're on ER. I want to be clear: this is not fair. Many people would quit, and I would not judge them for that because you are not getting what you signed up for. But, this is how I would handle it if my ultimate goal was to be a surgeon.

What I would do now is insist that your elective time is rescheduled and bundled, ideally before that surgeon goes off for their leave, or so you can go somewhere else for a few weeks to get a letter from a surgeon at another facility. Be clear with your internship that this is not what you were promised and this is what they owe you. You should also be prepared to do a specialty internship, or two, given this situation. Your dreams are not out of reach, but may require some reconstruction to get there. You may also want to consider reaching out to a professor at your vet school that you're comfortable discussing this with. These sorts of conversations do come up during match time and can help prevent you from being overlooked.

Feel free to DM me if you'd like to talk privately and in more detail.

 

[vampyrica]

how is anyone supposed to WANT to specialize when interns are being treated so poorly and the response is just to take it because that’s the way it’s always been?

 

[JaynaAli]

how is anyone supposed to WANT to specialize when interns are being treated so poorly and the response is just to take it because that’s the way it’s always been?

Change is slow, but honestly there HAS been change. I’m not saying it’s good or where it should be, but things truly are a lot different now than they were when I was an intern in 2015 and before that. Pay has more than doubled and in some instances tripled, especially for private practice programs. There’s also seeming to be more PTO, more elective opportunities, and better hours/more rest periods. It’s not where it should be but there have been changes.

I mean the issue is industry wide. We really need a top down restructuring of the work and more appropriate support staff, but that’s way easier said than done. As students demand better conditions the work just gets shuffled to someone else (aka the house officers). Thats not to say in any way that things don’t need to improve for students, but someone has to pick up that work and places don’t hire more staff and/or can’t retain the support staff they have. And outside of academia when there’s staff shortages they just make the interns step up. And just like prospective vet students will take on the debt even if it’s not in their best interest to do so, people who want to specialize will take on the work even if it’s not in their best interest as well. Dreams make people do silly things sometimes.

 

[pp9]

For OP's concern for losing specialists...it sounds like you still have surgeons and other specialists so I wouldn't be super concerned about your future in surgery. I would be worried about what the rest of this year looks like for you though. I would imagine you might get really ER heavy (not a bad thing for learning, but could be a bad thing for your QOL) and lose out on the other areas like ophtho for example. Now, there are plenty of rotatings that offer zero ophtho/anesthesia/radiology, but if you went into this program specifically expecting these less covered/less common specialties then yeah your expectations are being unmet. What you want to do about that is up to you. If you are dead set on specializing, quitting will very much have you at risk of being VIRMP-blacklisted for a few years. It's my understanding they only grant forgiveness on a case by case basis. You could reach out to VIRMP to discuss, but like katiemcat mentioned above, these programs don't have to guarantee anything so VIRMP is always saying 'intern at your own risk' basically

how is anyone supposed to WANT to specialize when interns are being treated so poorly and the response is just to take it because that’s the way it’s always been?

in regards to everything else, at the risk of it sounding like I'm trying to excuse how interns have been treated historically (I'm not trying to do that necessarily), I think these programs are lagging behind the rate that newer grads' expectations have been evolving. Truly even in my measly 7 years of practice, the expectations of fourth years and new grads had changed dramatically. These changing expectations are not always bad, and I'm not saying that is the issue at hand here at all, but sometimes these expectations are very difficult to meet. And if they can't consistently offer a certain program, they should not be advertising as such because then they find their interns quitting.

Change is slow, but honestly there HAS been change. I’m not saying it’s good or where it should be, but things truly are a lot different now than they were when I was an intern in 2015 and before that. Pay has more than doubled and in some instances tripled, especially for private practice programs. There’s also seeming to be more PTO, more elective opportunities, and better hours/more rest periods. It’s not where it should be but there have been changes.

I mean the issue is industry wide. We really need a top down restructuring of the work and more appropriate support staff, but that’s way easier said than done. As students demand better conditions the work just gets shuffled to someone else (aka the house officers). Thats not to say in any way that things don’t need to improve for students, but someone has to pick up that work and places don’t hire more staff and/or can’t retain the support staff they have. And outside of academia when there’s staff shortages they just make the interns step up. And just like prospective vet students will take on the debt even if it’s not in their best interest to do so, people who want to specialize will take on the work even if it’s not in their best interest as well. Dreams make people do silly things sometimes.

Kind of what I believe Jayna is alluding to here. Change has happened but yes, it's been slow. I was paid like 35k 7 years ago at the same PP program that is now paying interns 80k I think, which is more than what many zoo vets get paid (not an apples to apples comparison, but 80k is a survivable salary is what I'm getting at). And that's before you consider the cultural/QOL changes that new grads want that are often just not going to happen in a rotating (ETA: or even out in practice at a FT job tbh).

 

[JaynaAli]

Kind of what I believe Jayna is alluding to here. Change has happened but yes, it's been slow. I was paid like 35k 7 years ago at the same PP program that is now paying interns 80k I think, which is more than what many zoo vets get paid (not an apples to apples comparison, but 80k is a survivable salary is what I'm getting at). And that's before you consider the cultural/QOL changes that new grads want that are often just not going to happen in a rotating.

Yes, exactly what I was getting at. I was paid 26k at a private practice VCA internship in a high cost of living area in 2015. Going in at 6am and staying until 9pm was the norm. We did get two days truly off a week as we didn’t have to come in on your “weekends” and we rounded patients off, which was nice. Residency was 32k my first year (raised to 36 my third year, wow!) and that program now advertises a salary of 56k. I’m happy for the current trainees and don’t think they should make what I did, but that’s SO much better than what things have been I think people lose that perspective. Again, not saying it’s good or that people should just shut up and take it, but we do have to acknowledge that there have been some major improvements even if there’s still a really long way to improve still.

 

[katiemcat]

For OP's concern for losing specialists...it sounds like you still have surgeons and other specialists so I wouldn't be super concerned about your future in surgery. I would be worried about what the rest of this year looks like for you though. I would imagine you might get really ER heavy (not a bad thing for learning, but could be a bad thing for your QOL) and lose out on the other areas like ophtho for example. Now, there are plenty of rotatings that offer zero ophtho/anesthesia/radiology, but if you went into this program specifically expecting these less covered/less common specialties then yeah your expectations are being unmet. What you want to do about that is up to you. If you are dead set on specializing, quitting will very much have you at risk of being VIRMP-blacklisted for a few years. It's my understanding they only grant forgiveness on a case by case basis. You could reach out to VIRMP to discuss, but like katiemcat mentioned above, these programs don't have to guarantee anything so VIRMP is always saying 'intern at your own risk' basically


in regards to everything else, at the risk of it sounding like I'm trying to excuse how interns have been treated historically (I'm not trying to do that necessarily), I think these programs are lagging behind the rate that newer grads' expectations have been evolving. Truly even in my measly 7 years of practice, the expectations of fourth years and new grads had changed dramatically. These changing expectations are not always bad, and I'm not saying that is the issue at hand here at all, but sometimes these expectations are very difficult to meet. And if they can't consistently offer a certain program, they should not be advertising as such because then they find their interns quitting.


Kind of what I believe Jayna is alluding to here. Change has happened but yes, it's been slow. I was paid like 35k 7 years ago at the same PP program that is now paying interns 80k I think, which is more than what many zoo vets get paid (not an apples to apples comparison, but 80k is a survivable salary is what I'm getting at). And that's before you consider the cultural/QOL changes that new grads want that are often just not going to happen in a rotating (ETA: or even out in practice at a FT job tbh).

I will mention that this is a concern for OP that was not one for me as I didn’t get this internship through match. That is a big consideration.

 

[pp9]

I will mention that this is a concern for OP that was not one for me as I didn’t get this internship through match. That is a big consideration.

Not saying everyone has to feel this way, but this would probably have me sticking it out and finishing the year. It is tough to get back into things when you have to wait three years to resume the journey, especially since you'd almost assuredly need to still do a rotating at that point. If VIRMP is willing to let OP leave without a blacklist, that's helpful, but you still need to consider that you'd just be starting over next year. Rock and hard place for sure.

 

[battie]

I got the impression it was about saving the hospital money (and earning her a bonus in the process) but of course I can’t prove anything.

Corporate hospitals absolutely offer management bonuses if the hospital meets revenue or savings goals.

I mean the issue is industry wide

Ties into so many issues honestly. Support staff pay. Student experience in academia with the proliferation of house officers. Cost for the clients. Expected revenue / EBITDA of practices. Etc.

80k is a survivable salary

80k is now the average income for an average American these days after the pandemic, even. The local big name VCA doubled their internship salary my first year out and it's maintained there.

 

[ESD_2029]

I’m hoping to specialize in surgery. At the time of my interview, the practice had 4 surgeons. We now have 2, one of which will be leaving soon on paternity leave.

I'm not sure if it's been said, apologies if this is a repeat, but at least the second surgeon on paternity leave isn't a permanent departure, and it's an understandable reason to take a leave. Could there be a positive window here where your other rotations (not surgery) are in the window of his paternity leave and then when he's back you rotate with two surgeons?

 

[supershorty]

I'm not sure if it's been said, apologies if this is a repeat, but at least the second surgeon on paternity leave isn't a permanent departure, and it's an understandable reason to take a leave. Could there be a positive window here where your other rotations (not surgery) are in the window of his paternity leave and then when he's back you rotate with two surgeons?

If he's leaving soon for paternity leave, OP might be worried about being able to rotate with surgery enough prior to Match to be able to get strong letters. Most internships (or at least ones that care about the outcomes for their interns) will try to front-load their schedule with their desired specialty so that they're in a good spot for Match. Though say they're going on leave Aug 1 and assuming a 12 week leave, he'd be back in time for OP to potentially have 2 solid months to rotate with them... so potentially not ENORMOUSLY problematic, like you said - especially, if OP's schedule is currently heavily front-loaded with surgery, maybe some of those rotations could get moved around.

 

[supershorty]

That could be a challenging rearrangement depending on how that hospital divvies up their interns - I know where I did my rotating, there HAD to be a rotating intern on soft tissue/urg surg always, so changing that rotation around could wreak havoc on a lot more schedules than just OP's. But not every program is the same, of course.

 

[ESD_2029]

That could be a challenging rearrangement depending on how that hospital divvies up their interns - I know where I did my rotating, there HAD to be a rotating intern on soft tissue/urg surg always, so changing that rotation around could wreak havoc on a lot more schedules than just OP's. But not every program is the same, of course.

For sure, these things should be done in advance with scheduling. But, I'm just hoping OP's set schedule is not heavy on surgery front end and they can get other rotations out of the way then have more surgery time with the two surgeons. Also, one might add that even if the OP's rotations are surgery heavy with just one of them early on, I would argue there's ample time to shine and be prepared. I'm sure the remaining surgeon will be overwhelmed and very busy so if OP can really step up, that's a pretty good opportunity to demonstrate preparedness, skills and knowledge.

 

[minivet26]

Well, I was going to reply on here in a very good mood earlier, was able to get my schedule moved around so that I’d be on surgery slightly earlier (3 weeks before expected paternity leave) to hopefully get a few shifts with him. Ended up going on paternity 48 hours before my first shift with him this week. Shifted my schedule again this morning to line up for when he’ll be back, then he sent his letter of resignation 5 hours later 🙂🥲 once again feeling kinda terrible, but I really do appreciate all of the advice shared on here- it has made me feel better about things for sure.

It’s just been a lot on top of the expected intern life that I had been understanding of. I was expecting long days, difficult nights, and working my butt off every day. I was so ready to be in that, with a focus on teaching and being able to learn from specialists. Techs are quitting, specialists leaving, all of the interns left pretty disappointed/misled and trying their best to pick up all of the slack under pressure to keep the place running as usual. I promise I’m not one to complain about a difficult environment- I worked in understaffed ERs with overworked interns. It genuinely feels like this mass exodus (which I thought I had experienced before, never felt like this) won’t be recovered within the year, and like in a few weeks the interns will outnumber the support staff.

My previous experiences were why I was searching for a place where I could work and learn, and everything I came here for is kinda crumbling. I’m trying hard to stay positive but it feels difficult right now. I very much want to push through this year and be the best doctor I can be. I plan to try my best to get other letters of rec, hopefully from a surgeon, a neurologist, and a criticalist (all who I’ve been in surgery with before).

I’m telling myself that everything will be okay and that hopefully some of these staffing gaps will be fixed eventually. It’s just frustrating to have all this on top of the stressors that already accompany internship

 

[gartersotter]

Well, I was going to reply on here in a very good mood earlier, was able to get my schedule moved around so that I’d be on surgery slightly earlier (3 weeks before expected paternity leave) to hopefully get a few shifts with him. Ended up going on paternity 48 hours before my first shift with him this week. Shifted my schedule again this morning to line up for when he’ll be back, then he sent his letter of resignation 5 hours later 🙂🥲 once again feeling kinda terrible, but I really do appreciate all of the advice shared on here- it has made me feel better about things for sure.

It’s just been a lot on top of the expected intern life that I had been understanding of. I was expecting long days, difficult nights, and working my butt off every day. I was so ready to be in that, with a focus on teaching and being able to learn from specialists. Techs are quitting, specialists leaving, all of the interns left pretty disappointed/misled and trying their best to pick up all of the slack under pressure to keep the place running as usual. I promise I’m not one to complain about a difficult environment- I worked in understaffed ERs with overworked interns. It genuinely feels like this mass exodus (which I thought I had experienced before, never felt like this) won’t be recovered within the year, and like in a few weeks the interns will outnumber the support staff.

My previous experiences were why I was searching for a place where I could work and learn, and everything I came here for is kinda crumbling. I’m trying hard to stay positive but it feels difficult right now. I very much want to push through this year and be the best doctor I can be. I plan to try my best to get other letters of rec, hopefully from a surgeon, a neurologist, and a criticalist (all who I’ve been in surgery with before).

I’m telling myself that everything will be okay and that hopefully some of these staffing gaps will be fixed eventually. It’s just frustrating to have all this on top of the stressors that already accompany internship

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. Reach out to surgeons from your vet school, if there are any you're comfortable with. It can keep you on their radar come match time and they may be sympathetic when reading your application or if/when those informal phone calls start happening.

I would insist on being granted an externship in your situation.

 

[WonderingStudent]

I don’t think that’s abnormal either, just that it was the first day.

Yeah when I was applying for rotating internships I ranked low a hospital that couldn’t guarantee that our first ER shift would have a senior clinician there to help. Understand that they can’t hand hold us or have someone there always but at least have some sort of transition into internship. I at least knew that I didn’t want that situation when starting ER.