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Kk dude, get yelled at by nurses over nothing and take it. That's like saying, don't punch the bully back, it's part of being a kid.
There's no totem pole to human decency.
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Rotations SUCK.
Started by QueenJames
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There's no totem pole to human decency.
be sure to tell your attending to stop yelling at you too, even though no patient safety issue was involved. developing a thicker skin is also an necessity for any job involving serving the public.
Oh, trust me, I'll blister a student doing something innapropriately, like blindly burrowing the needle in the antecubital fossa attempting to draw blood or start an iv. As a student, if you dont know what to do, dont do anything. I dont need to explain to a jury why my patient has nerve or arterial damage due to a medical student. I've had 4 th yrs confidently tell me they knew how to do basic procedures, ivs, art lines, blood draws, ng tubes, dressing changes, etc., and not having a clue. Having learned the hard way, I would always trust, but verify before sending anyone out on their own. Few other professions have the risk management we have. Preventing errors is far better than explaining them. If someone's self esteem is bruised in the process, I guess it's a smaller price to pay than a patient misadventure.
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lol you're talking about medical errors. OP's talking about getting yelled at for doing absolutely nothing wrong.
"They can always hurt you more."
I could go on a lengthy diatribe about the behavior you have experienced, particularly from nurses and techs in the OR (or LD) as I have a lot of experience in this environment, but truthfully you only need to hear one thing: If it's not affecting patient safety just ****ing ignore it and move on to the next rotation. You are tougher than them. You are going to make more money than them and lead a more fulfilled life. You will be their bosses one day and rarely have to put up with any of their **** (minus admin). Frankly, you are probably smarter than them and certainly more knowledgeable in most aspects of care even if you don't know where the god damn insufflator tubing is in the sterile core because you haven't even been in the core. Prove it by working hard and moving on without causing yourself issues. Hell, you will probably win some of them over by the end of each month. That's a personal, yet otherwise useless, victory but it's been a personal goal of mine whenever I have met plain old bitchy staff in my career.
I say that I will force this pain in the ass person to accept my presence on the team through sheer hard work and an unrelenting smile in the face of bull****. There is nothing more torturing to these people than a "may I have another" attitude in students. Of course life would be easier if people were just decent to each other, but that ain't gonna happen so take solace in never giving them the satisfaction of seeing you affected by them being jerks. You just gotta remember that most of those people face an existential crisis any time students come through. Wouldn't you if you were some crabby old loser?
I could go on a lengthy diatribe about the behavior you have experienced, particularly from nurses and techs in the OR (or LD) as I have a lot of experience in this environment, but truthfully you only need to hear one thing: If it's not affecting patient safety just ****ing ignore it and move on to the next rotation. You are tougher than them. You are going to make more money than them and lead a more fulfilled life. You will be their bosses one day and rarely have to put up with any of their **** (minus admin). Frankly, you are probably smarter than them and certainly more knowledgeable in most aspects of care even if you don't know where the god damn insufflator tubing is in the sterile core because you haven't even been in the core. Prove it by working hard and moving on without causing yourself issues. Hell, you will probably win some of them over by the end of each month. That's a personal, yet otherwise useless, victory but it's been a personal goal of mine whenever I have met plain old bitchy staff in my career.
I say that I will force this pain in the ass person to accept my presence on the team through sheer hard work and an unrelenting smile in the face of bull****. There is nothing more torturing to these people than a "may I have another" attitude in students. Of course life would be easier if people were just decent to each other, but that ain't gonna happen so take solace in never giving them the satisfaction of seeing you affected by them being jerks. You just gotta remember that most of those people face an existential crisis any time students come through. Wouldn't you if you were some crabby old loser?
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DO student here. I spent the first five rotations of third year in preceptor based rotations without residents or a “teaching” team. I’m just finishing my first rotation at a teaching hospital and I realized pretty quickly that this whole thing about DO rotations being terrible I had bought into is largely nonsense. It took me like two days tops to get into the flow of team rounding and figuring out my role as a student. I was assigned similar patients at the level 1 trauma center as the ones I saw at the community hospital I had just rotated at. As as a third year your job is to become proficient at managing basic medical problems. Is it nice seeing Nissen Fundoplication or major trauma on your gen surg rotation? Yeah, sure. But, is it necessary as a third year? No.
Put your head down and learn as much as you can each rotation, even if it doesn’t feel like much. Everything else is BS and a waste of your time thinking about.
Put your head down and learn as much as you can each rotation, even if it doesn’t feel like much. Everything else is BS and a waste of your time thinking about.
Thank you. Its not like the one cool case you see in third year will stick in your brain enough to remember when you're a resident I never got the big BS that flies around on here
Lol, yeah, I wasnt very specific, was responding to sub thread referring to how you should never be yelled at. People dont get yelled at for nothing, I have found.
Someone is rude gotta just deal, and focus on doing your job as well as you can.
common sense and everything I have read about this subject says that volume, varied pathology and generally higher acuity of care combined make for the most learning one can achieve during clinical rotations and residency. Just like experience helps physicans , seeing more, sicker, and varied patients would also help. If you have never seen a zebra or the hundreds of variations of horses you may have difficulty identifying it when you actually come across one.
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Yes but this is why physicians aren’t allowed to practice without a residency. 3rd year is about getting used to your physical exam, witnessing an abnormal exam, understanding what common pathologies look like in real life, etc. This can really be done in most hospitals in the US (that are bigger than critical access hospitals). 4th year is about beginning to learn management of these pathologies. In a smaller hospital, as long as it’s not a shadowing opportunity, you will still manage all of the common pathologies that are required of students. The problem is when the Student is shadowing because they aren’t learning. The majority of my experiences are the lazy medstudents that want to skate through do not learn what they need to from clinical rotations.
Right, but being yelled at customers is not the same as being yelled at by your colleague or professional superiors. I had a career before medicine and I was certainly yelled at by entitled, rude customers more times than I can count, but never once have I ever been yelled at by a manager, colleague, or anything remotely close to that. Ironically, I was also never lectured about professionalism biweekly, either. Funny how that works. Welcome to medicine, I guess.
Fixed.
Third year is the start of your on-the-job training. Go into each rotation expecting to study a lot yourself. With this mindset you maximize the potential of a good rotation and make less desirable rotations more palatable.
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Adult learning is teaching yourself. You did it the first two years, you will do it the next two, and you will in residency. MD students at big institutions do too. I agree there definitely needs to be more clinical lectures but really you aren’t going to learn everything you need from a lecture.
Yet midlevels can practice independently without a residency and they don't even do half of 3rd year med school! Insane, right?
Also I disagree with your expectations of 3rd year. During my rotations (DO school), my grade was tied to how accurately I could diagnose and come up with a plan for a patient, including specific drug dosages. If my plan differed slightly from the attendings, I could defend it to receive credit.
During internal medicine, I was doing 4-7 progress notes per day + 0-8 admissions daily. One outpatient rotation, it was paper scripts so I had to have the patient figured out, assessed, have the plan ready + orders (labs/scripts) written out for the attending to sign off quickly.
I honestly think what I was doing should be average for any 3rd year. I was disappointed that only 2 rotations in ms3 let me put in orders, until I found out no one in ms3 does that and even subIs aren't always doing that.
I think coming into 4th year, you should know how to work up and manage all the common pathologies. 4th year is when you learn more zebras and learn the atypical presentations of horses + learn more in-depth management of lesser common pathology.
What I would consider a robust experience is a mixture of academic center where you see unique pathology + volume & rural/community where you have autonomy and actually place order/make some decisions.
The worst attitude I've seen - is that you should postpone learning XYZ until residency. And this attitude comes from attendings & residents. The residents think that way because of their own poor education in med school. The attendings just don't know any better.
It's so silly that there's this mentality that med students don't need to be doing much and everything just gets dumped on the intern.
Ultimately, when you have so many med schools and so many facilities with med students - you get extreme variability in teaching. Most people are not good teachers. Nor are they understanding of what constitutes a good med student experience.
This is my favorite tactic when dealing with salty staff. Even when they try to heckle you with the "student" or any type of derogatory term of your position in the pecking order.
The best part is that it drives some of these people nuts that they can't haze you.
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I don't want to discredit anyone, but I have a witnessed a lot of situations in the OR in which someone gets serious about something and then in the break room it turns into "so and so attending chewed me out." That couldn't be further from the truth and certainly wasn't an ass chewing.
As a few posters have said, I do not agree that you shouldn't get chewed out or voices raised or harsh language used for certain situations. Sometimes I wonder if people reporting tense situations as abuse can't differentiate between the two things as I have seen so many examples of people illustrating that.
To keep it vague, I do a hobby that necessitates some stern language and definitely yelling in certain situations for mostly safety but also tactical reasons to display the importance of what is being said. If I cried every time someone yelled at me (generally within reason) I would be a in an emo boy band.
As a few posters have said, I do not agree that you shouldn't get chewed out or voices raised or harsh language used for certain situations. Sometimes I wonder if people reporting tense situations as abuse can't differentiate between the two things as I have seen so many examples of people illustrating that.
To keep it vague, I do a hobby that necessitates some stern language and definitely yelling in certain situations for mostly safety but also tactical reasons to display the importance of what is being said. If I cried every time someone yelled at me (generally within reason) I would be a in an emo boy band.
Lol. Its an uncommon hobby that would out me more than I am on here so I can't elaborate further. It would make more sense if I could explain the situations because they are quite obvious. It just explains the point that not all yelling and language are in bad taste. "Sometimes you just gotta yell f--- to get things done" is a quote a mentor used to say and I have found it to be true when used in moderation otherwise.
Or apparently DO school, based on what I see the most sensitive 10% seem to be driving the bus on what is okay behavior anymore in the class (or SDN for that matter...) I mean the things people were sent to committee over were ridiculous in diadactics. I take joy that the few of these students who make it to third year will be getting the chewing out their life deserves. Its not karma, more like a natural consequence of a poorly lived life 🙂
Also I have gotten all my OR staff to like me, even when I broke scrub on accident a couple times early on. It is possible.
Fortnite isn't that rare buddy its 2018.
Prolly BDSM.
I like how SDNers like to complain about not being left alone to teach themselves MS1 and MS2, and then complain about not being taught MS3 and MS4. Not calling anyone out in particular, this isn't specific to this thread.
The difference is is that elementary school kids didn't sign up to be bullied. You/we are on this totem pole voluntarily.
The difference is is that elementary school kids didn't sign up to be bullied. You/we are on this totem pole voluntarily.
Because one of those you can learn on your own and the other you need someone to show you.
And oh okay so bullying is okay because we signed up to be in a hierarchy?
What is the deal with all the filth in this post? Is it really necessary to use or suggest so much profanity? I don't really see the logic in cursing God and Jesus without symbols but use symbols for **** and others. This type of drivel is very hard to read. It seems like you think you're unique and special, but you're not. You are experiencing the exact same thing 90% or more of medical students experience at some point. Even in residency I still have some of those feelings. At least most students have enough sense to deal with it in a reasonable way.
Annnnnnnd he's gone.
Queen, I’ll be honest, this entire thread has only made me more excited for third year. Bring on the cranky nurses, cause I am so freaking sick of sitting on my butt studying all day. I was a PCT for 4 years and then a CNA for 4 years before that and although being elbow deep in poop with some nurse yelling at me was hard work and sucked at times, I can’t wait to get back to it.
There is something about being in the trenches so to speak that is just comforting.
True.
ANYTHING is better than second year but ENJOY IT. Get back to boards and you'll be here in no time amigo.
How about compared to 1st year? Only 5 months in and I've been wanting to quit since the second week of classes
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Still think anatomy lab was the worst experience ever
Damn haha most of mine have been away and I have been having a pretty good time. Go in 8-1/2, leave and study for a couple hours. Rinse and repeat. Maybe try to get more aways? Trade with some homies and turn up.
You is funny.
I'm genuinely curious why you feel the need to use such inappropriate language on here. Do you bother to read your posts?
The real truth is that every year gets a little better than the year during medical school. Then residency is like starting all over again, each year gets a little better. That doesn't change the fact you can't wait to become an attending so you can make 5-10x more and work less hours.
How's that OMM deck coming?
Good. Have like 4 more chapters left of savarese, half of omed/omg, 50% done of combank and 0% done on comquest. ~1100 cards right now. Been going through and editing ~50 cards/day by fixing mistakes and adding diagrams from various sources.
TLDR: should be done by the end of next week. Better be cause I’m gonna try to take my comat then lol
I’m taking mine this month too such a time suck for nothing
Just so y’all know, not every clinical site is toxic... My crew always treats medical students/interns/residents very well. Never had a reason to be negative toward a student before.
Granted I’m speaking from the ICU, and students have less of an opportunity to really muck anything up compared to in surgery.
I’ve even seen a few DO students rotate through (is it normal to travel 200+ miles for an away?).
So far as an MS1 everyone at clinical sites has treated me VERY nicely.
Granted I’m speaking from the ICU, and students have less of an opportunity to really muck anything up compared to in surgery.
I’ve even seen a few DO students rotate through (is it normal to travel 200+ miles for an away?).
So far as an MS1 everyone at clinical sites has treated me VERY nicely.
That's what concerns me. I already feel like med school takes up my entire life. I already skip lecture and study as quickly as I can, but you cannot outrun a school that constantly drags you back to campus for random requirements. Those thing waste so much of my day that it's not uncommon for me to be involved in school-related stuff from ~8 am to ~7-9 pm many days of the week. Pretty sure if they just left me alone I could be done by ~3 pm every day.
2nd year was exactly the same as year 1 for me, you'll be fine.
Med students work less than attendings? I'm pretty sure that didnt come out quite the way you wanted. Attendings put in many non clinical hours that students dont see.
By contrast, based on Anki data, I'm currently spending ~2x as much time studying during M2 as I did during M1.
It's mostly self-inflicted though in preparation for Step, and not a function of M2 itself being more difficult.
I've been skipping class and studying 100% from Anki since day 1, my study habits have not changed at all since starting med school:
Second year may have had more material, but honestly I was better at the whole med school thing by then. I felt like I had no time for boards tho.
Agreed. I was meaning more of the contrast between residency and attendinghood. Additionally, you finally aren't under the gun so to speak of someone else. On the other hand, you are no longer under the umbrella of another physician.
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I urge every DO student to do their 4th year away rotations at a university program or where MD students usually rotate.
I learned more there in 1 week than I did 1 month at my core site. The teaching and expectations are very different.
I learned more there in 1 week than I did 1 month at my core site. The teaching and expectations are very different.
I've had great experiences with rotations thus far as a third year student. Having said that, I had a cardiology rotation where I was pimped with resident to fellow level questions. stuff completely unrelated to my Internal medicine shelf exam. So studying for both a rotation and a shelf exam was good times!
I want to reiterate this and also want to clarify that you should try to do it at a tertiary teaching institution that is the main rotation site for an MD school, not at a satellite site that rotates one or two of those students each time. I'm an MD student and during my 3rd year rotated mostly at my main site and once at a satellite location (public hospital) with a tenuous affiliation with the main school and mostly matched IMG/FMGs.
At the satellite site, my presentations and plans were not challenged or corrected but instead just kind of accepted as fact, and I got pimped a ton but mostly on board related stuff that wasn't super difficult (even if I'm pretty dumb and didn't know it) e.g. which antibiotics can you use to treat pseudomonas.
At the main site, my residents gave me freedom to give my own presentations and plans, but the plans were always modified by the attendings and I was always asked why this or that and why not this and did you think about that and how should be go about figuring out if it's this etc etc. And while there was some pimping, it was more "hey WD tomorrow come back with a presentation on this super rare disease that this patient might have with full literature review including a succinct but comprehensive review of trial data" and had to be prepared to answer questions about it ... to one of the people who ran the trial.
Overall, different experiences, both being valuable in their own way, but the core site experience is one you can only get in a big university setting IMO and probably something that will help you increase your clinical acumen more than the satellite setting with perhaps more autonomy, but less teaching (which is important in 3rd and 4th year because that's really where a lot of your habits get formed).
If someone offers you a satellite location, don't take it - negotiate for the core.
@QueenJames hang in there bud. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff that feels like scut and people can be rude especially because there are really no repercussions to doing so, but going in with the attitude of "how can I help my team" and "let's fight rude coworkers with niceness and confidence" can really make a huge difference in 1) how you feel during your workday and 2) how you are viewed by your team (i.e. the people that actually matter). It's crazy, but about halfway through your rotations take a bit just to reflect on how much you've learned. It's so hard to track your progress when it's very slow on a day to day basis, but 6 months in, you'll be astounded by how much you've matured as a clinician and what your trajectory is.
I would not necessarily agree that the core university rotation is always the best experience. Core and satellite rotations offer different advantages. Your experience might not be universally duplicated at different institutions. I can remember the "Service" parade with the attending in the lead with a gaggle of single file followers, fellow, resident and 4 or 5 med students. The bedside lectures and deconstruction of journal articles are indeed impressive. As a med student there, you get little hands on experience and little management autonomy. Remember, as med students you must learn the basics and to deal with common medical issues. I would try to spend some time at both core and satellite programs for some balance. An all university core experience might skew your perspective. Not every red painful eye is Loa loa.
How do you go about efficiently doing your lit review and presentation creations?
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