Round 2:UMDNJSOM or postbacc loans

[Darkskies]

Hi,
I've posted several times throughout this past year and a half on this forum regarding what route I should choose for attending medical school(and its consequences in future residency placement). I have a 32R MCAT and a 3.47 GPA. I applied this last cycle to over 20 MD schools and was interviewed at 3. I was rejected from all of them unfortunately. Based on a review of my application I have well-rounded extracurriculars.

I was accepted to several DO schools including UMDNJSOM. UMDNJSOM is likely my first choice DO school but I was also accepted to EVMS' medical masters program and am still waiting to hear back from two other postbaccs that nearly guarantee admission to their affiliated MD school in the year after the postbacc. Last time I posted about my choice, I was still waitlisted at UMDNJSOM and it seemed that more people here recommended I go DO over the postbacc.

Over 90% of the students in EVMS' med master's program are accepted to the MD program at EVMS in the following year upon successful completion of the program. That being said, I would have about 400k in loans(not counting interest) after 5 years at EVMS(counting the 1 year postbac) due to out of state status and tuition. That amount in loans plus interest is frightening to say the least. However, I would hate to feel that I'm settling by choosing the DO route especially since my stats are right at the borderline for being accepted to an MD school.

I know that I have an initial interest in Psychiatry presently but that my interests will likely change through further exposure to the various fields during medical school. I would like to keep my options open and am somewhat dismayed that more competitive specialties, more competitive residencies, and opportunities in research are harder to attain coming from an osteopathic school.

On the other hand, UMDNJSOM has its own teaching hospital and several more affiliated hospitals throughout southern and northern New Jersey. I know that it is considered one of the best DO schools in the country(especially since I was waitlisted initially with a 32R MCAT!) and I would only have to pay Out of state tuition for the first year after which I would receive in-state tuition cutting my potential loan burden by a decent amount.

What should I do? Like I've mentioned I don't want the DO degree to hinder my future opportunities and am really disappointed I couldn't obtain acceptance to an MD school this year despite going on 3 interviews.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Abider]

Hi,
I've posted several times throughout this past year and a half on this forum regarding what route I should choose for attending medical school(and its consequences in future residency placement). I have a 32R MCAT and a 3.47 GPA. I applied this last cycle to over 20 MD schools and was interviewed at 3. I was rejected from all of them unfortunately. Based on a review of my application I have well-rounded extracurriculars.

I was accepted to several DO schools including UMDNJSOM. UMDNJSOM is likely my first choice DO school but I was also accepted to EVMS' medical masters program and am still waiting to hear back from two other postbaccs that nearly guarantee admission to their affiliated MD school in the year after the postbacc. Last time I posted about my choice, I was still waitlisted at UMDNJSOM and it seemed that more people here recommended I go DO over the postbacc.

Over 90% of the students in EVMS' med master's program are accepted to the MD program at EVMS in the following year upon successful completion of the program. That being said, I would have about 400k in loans(not counting interest) after 5 years at EVMS(counting the 1 year postbac) due to out of state status and tuition. That amount in loans plus interest is frightening to say the least. However, I would hate to feel that I'm settling by choosing the DO route especially since my stats are right at the borderline for being accepted to an MD school.

I know that I have an initial interest in Psychiatry presently but that my interests will likely change through further exposure to the various fields during medical school. I would like to keep my options open and am somewhat dismayed that more competitive specialties, more competitive residencies, and opportunities in research are harder to attain coming from an osteopathic school.

On the other hand, UMDNJSOM has its own teaching hospital and several more affiliated hospitals throughout southern and northern New Jersey. I know that it is considered one of the best DO schools in the country(especially since I was waitlisted initially with a 32R MCAT!) and I would only have to pay Out of state tuition for the first year after which I would receive in-state tuition cutting my potential loan burden by a decent amount.

What should I do? Like I've mentioned I don't want the DO degree to hinder my future opportunities and am really disappointed I couldn't obtain acceptance to an MD school this year despite going on 3 interviews.

Man, tough situation. You might consult a friend of mine--DrMidlife--she frequents the postbac forum. She's a graduate of the EVMS program and wrestled with some similar choices.

If I knew ahead of time like you do, that Pysch would be primary career target I may have flat chosen an instate DO school over my MD school, which incidentally I chose over a very small selection that included EVMS (what I'm saying is that I struggled to get in too). EVMS is a truly a great set-up. It's the major medical service to the Hampton Roads. It's got a full service Children's hospital, an ED with heli pad, it's own hospital and outpatient clinics. Norfolk is pleasant. They talk like characters on The Cleveland Show. But I wouldn't hold it against'em. Doity Joisy is probably worse in that regards. Particularly if your a unmatched male. Listening to that accent in between smacks of gum chewing would be...I digress.

I personally would take the DO route. EVMS is great. But it's not going to be any kind of wow factor. And neither is my school. We'd be in the same pool of schmoes applying to all the big programs. And for schmoes it's much more about the other things you can bring other than your school name.

Good luck. just my 2 cents.

 

[belle54321]

I think you have your mind set on getting into MD school, so I am not sure what we say will really sway you toward the DO school. Having graduated from a MD school, I can't really speak about the hurtles or perceived hurtles of a DO graduate. Being a MD may open more options for residency training, but as demonstrated by many DO posters here, you can still end up training at very good psych programs as DOs.

Personally, I am just not sure if it is worth $400K in loans to get a MD from, no offense, not the best med school in the world. You already have a place at a DO school, which means you can be on your way to residency in 4 short years. If you go into the post-bac program, there is no guarantee that you will be accepted to the MD school at the end of it-and one more year away from your goal.

It is a tough decision, but being a doctor is about hard decisions every day. You will have to trust your own judgment on this.

 

[peppy]

By waiting an extra year, you're taking on extra debt, you're losing an extra year of attending salary over your lifetime, and considering that new med schools are opening at a rate faster than the increase of residency spots, you might even be at a disadvantage in the match if you put it off an additional year (since many people expect that the match will get more competitive as these new schools start cranking out more graduates).
Looking at EVMS's most recent match list, I don't see anything that I would say stands out as an extraordinary opportunity that a DO could not obtain. I don't see any elite derm or rad onc spots on there. Middle tier MD schools and DO schools are not really that different.

 

[Abider]

By waiting an extra year, you're taking on extra debt, you're losing an extra year of attending salary over your lifetime, and considering that new med schools are opening at a rate faster than the increase of residency spots, you might even be at a disadvantage in the match if you put it off an additional year (since many people expect that the match will get more competitive as these new schools start cranking out more graduates).
Looking at EVMS's most recent match list, I don't see anything that I would say stands out as an extraordinary opportunity that a DO could not obtain. I don't see any elite derm or rad onc spots on there. Middle tier MD schools and DO schools are not really that different.

Absolutely agree. I go to an idk what tier but certainly not anything anybody would care about MD school and I feel no competitive edge over anybody.

If I was a PD I would be looking at my personal accomplishments and traits the same as anyone in my pool.

I can understand that certain institutions offer a brand that may actually have substance. Let's say akin to notdeadyet's description of UCSF offering nearly unparalleled clinical psych experience. Having lived in SF for over a decade and being familiar with UCSF this is easy for me to imagine.

So we're not all gonna be in the first tier of applicants. But you can be with a publication or something and a bangin step score. If you're a monster medical student you can do these things at any school.

Also my untiered school has particular strengths in clinical setting that I plan to take advantage of in terms of it's cross-cultural competencies and extreme poverty/pathology. These experiences will strengthen me and my skills.

So these types of things can be thought about for your overall residency application approach.

In the end you can design a potent psych application from different angles. And find yourself where you want to be. Even if more circuitously.

I'm going to a psych internship week full of lectures and clinical experiences this summer at UVA. I expressed sincere interest and they took me. So you can add inertia to your psych application in these kinds of ways. MD/DO is less of a concern here.

 

[sunlioness]

I wouldn't take on that much debt, personally. My debt was half that and I still consider it a burden I would like to be well rid of. It's hard to feel like a truly free adult when Aunt Sallie has you by the short ones. But I'm really debt averse in general. Others might roll with it better.

 

[Darkskies]

Thanks for the replies so far guys! I'm actually on the fence still:completely undecided. I suppose I might even be leaning DO. I'm a generally risk-averse person(especially when we're talking about such a huge sum of money in loans!) but at the same time I know that my choice will influence the rest of my life and I might be losing out on future opportunities as a DO. Like I've said, I hate the idea that I'm settling and the potential stigma I might face as a DO(though I know the latter is uncommon nowadays).

This has got to be the most agonizing decision I've ever had to make.I appreciate all your replies, help, and guidance!

 

[billypilgrim37]

The value of the MD will only come through at about the top 10 or so residency programs in the more desirable cities. If you don't have to be at one of those, then don't give it another thought. You're still going to be the same student (for better or worse) whether you wait a year or not, and your performance at a DO school vs a mid-low-tiered MD school (which is probably where you'd be going, based on what you've said) is pretty minimal. If you wanted to take a year off to do something fun, great. But a post-bacc year is a waste of your life if you don't ABSOLUTELY need it to get in somewhere. Do a good job in medical school, and you will be in about the same position either way.

You don't know me on the forum much, but I'm much harder about these issues than most people. I want to be in academics, went to a top 10 med school on a full scholarship, and I'm a chief at one of those "top 10 or so" residency programs. So, if narcissistic billypilgrim37 says you should go the DO route, you should probably go the DO route!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

By waiting an extra year, you're taking on extra debt, you're losing an extra year of attending salary over your lifetime, and considering that new med schools are opening at a rate faster than the increase of residency spots, you might even be at a disadvantage in the match if you put it off an additional year (since many people expect that the match will get more competitive as these new schools start cranking out more graduates).
Looking at EVMS's most recent match list, I don't see anything that I would say stands out as an extraordinary opportunity that a DO could not obtain. I don't see any elite derm or rad onc spots on there. Middle tier MD schools and DO schools are not really that different.

Agree.

Some of the best residents we've taken in the past 5 years have been DOs. Granted, we're not a Narcissistic Coastal Academic program (with all due respect to Dr. BillyPilgrim, MD )--but we're not a sweatshop for scut-slaves, either.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Granted, we're not a Narcissistic Coastal Academic program (with all due respect to Dr. BillyPilgrim, MD )--but we're not a sweatshop for scut-slaves, either.

Hey, my best friend is a DO surgeon. He got a 26 on his MCAT (because he sucks at math, and he met his now-wife right around the time he was studying to retake it, and he was so madly in love I swear the guy couldn't focus enough to pick up a book to save his life). He can take out my appendix any day. Just for fun. I don't even have to have appendicitis!

 

[st2205]

I'm nearly out of gas in my car. Fumes, really. My options are driving down to the local gas station and filling up. I'm nearly certain I'd have enough fumes to get me there. However, my friend told me there's a gas station up town a ways and the gas there is better for the environment and better for my car. I have to be to work tomorrow, which is three miles away, but my friend says he'll take me there tomorrow night and show me where it's at. I'm not sure I'll have enough gas to make it there, but my friend said, without a strong guarantee, that it could be possible that if I ran out of gas he may help me push the car. Or at least steer while I pushed. So that being considered I'm not sure what to do. On one hand I really need gas before work tomorrow, but on the other hand some of the neighborhood kids may come over at night and huff my gas while I'm asleep and know that I bought the cheap stuff. Decisions, decisions.

 

[digitlnoize]

Go with the route that allows you to be a practicing physician the fastest. At an attending salary of 200k/year (give or take), each year you wait is 200k lost on top of whatever tuition difference you're computing.

One of my buddies was dead set on one particular MD school, because he didn't want to move. While I am graduating DO school and about to start residency, he is just finally being accepted (after multiple attempts) at his MD school. While it's awesome that he got what he wanted in the end, I'm 4 years ahead, which would put me 800k ahead in the "life race".

DO school will not hinder you from much of anything. I have friends becoming orthopedic surgeons, ENT docs, rads, PM&R at Hopkins, all kinds of crazy things. As a very average DO student stat-wise, with no USMLE test scores (I only took COMLEX, the DO version)...I still got interviews at almost every place I applied (except 2, UF and U Arkansas). Plenty of good, solid University programs were interested in me, and although I didn't apply to Harvard, Yale, etc, I did have a number of Top 20 psych research places (MUSC, Iowa, Indiana, etc).

EVMS is an awesome school. I really think it's HIGHLY under-rated. I've worked with a number of their graduates, and their PA's are better trained than most doctors I know. Their standardized patient program is unique and a HUGE benefit for the program, I think. That being said, it's not worth that much extra money. Git 'er done.

 

[twright]

1. What is your alternative to $400K in debt? It's not like you're comparing "no debt" to "$400K in debt". How much debt would you accrue at UMDNJSOM? If you're going to be accruing $300K in debt by paying one year's worth of out-of-state and 3 years' worth of in-state tuition at UMDNJSOM then the two options look a little more equal. You can make up the $100K (+interest) difference by sucking it up and spending another 1-3 years after residency training living like a resident and putting all of your savings towards paying down your debt (which may or may not make sense depending on interest rates, how the stock market is doing, etc). Pick EVMS.

2. Not knowing anything more about your application other than what you've described, my guess is that whether you ultimately graduate from UMDNJSOM or EVMS (or another similarly tiered MD/DO program), neither is likely to get you into a top program if that is your goal. Assuming you continue your current trajectory of performance (which is probably the safest assumption even though everyone has fantasies about getting all honors, getting 260 on the boards, etc), having a degree from either program is most likely to land you in a lower-tier residency program. You may have to work a little harder at UMDNJSOM but I'm guessing not by much. Pick UMDNJSOM.

 

[Darkskies]

1. What is your alternative to $400K in debt? It's not like you're comparing "no debt" to "$400K in debt". How much debt would you accrue at UMDNJSOM? If you're going to be accruing $300K in debt by paying one year's worth of out-of-state and 3 years' worth of in-state tuition at UMDNJSOM then the two options look a little more equal. You can make up the $100K (+interest) difference by sucking it up and spending another 1-3 years after residency training living like a resident and putting all of your savings towards paying down your debt (which may or may not make sense depending on interest rates, how the stock market is doing, etc). Pick EVMS.

2. Not knowing anything more about your application other than what you've described, my guess is that whether you ultimately graduate from UMDNJSOM or EVMS (or another similarly tiered MD/DO program), neither is likely to get you into a top program if that is your goal. Assuming you continue your current trajectory of performance (which is probably the safest assumption even though everyone has fantasies about getting all honors, getting 260 on the boards, etc), having a degree from either program is most likely to land you in a lower-tier residency program. You may have to work a little harder at UMDNJSOM but I'm guessing not by much. Pick UMDNJSOM.

You're right. The amount of loans I'd have coming out of UMDNJSOM would be somewhere in the low 300s(not counting interest) since I have undergrad loans and the first year I'd be paying OOS tuition.

billypilgrim37, I think I'd like to obtain a residency in NYC/long Island(doesn't have to be manhattan) due to the fact that I have family ties to the area and used to live there. Are there still plenty of programs in the area that would take a DO?

I recognize that my desire to shoot for the MD may be largely in part due to egotism which I know is a rather foolish reason but there's no sense in denying it. At the same time I know that it's a bad trait and I shouldn't let that influence my decision so much since it hinders my efforts to be rational about my situation. I just don't want to regret being a DO once I start down this path. For example If I make mistakes, would others attribute them to my being a DO? I know I'm being immature and my example is such a silly and inane thing to be concerned over but I'm concerned over it. I worry I'll always feel like I'm not considered on the same plane as the majority of doctors(who are MDs).

I know that EVMS is a low-mid tier MD school but I don't think that means much since I doubt there is much of a difference in caliber among students across US MD schools(seeing that the minimum GPA and MCAT are still 3.6 and 31). Also, I'm only 'narcissistic' up to the point where I'd have a US MD so that I could at least be a part of the status quo. If I were to make a mistake, others would judge me the same as any other doctor(and not attribute it to my being from EVMS)

The above was more or less an uninhibited 'stream of consciousness'. I hope I don't get flamed as I realize my exposed insecurities are rather petty and something I should have overcome by now as a mature adult. As I've said though, these thoughts still affect me and I need some more advice on what I should do. Maybe, I should try tackling this from a different angle?

 

[notdeadyet]

You're getting great advice here, Darkskies. Look at the financial issue very carefully to situation carefully to figure what kind of hit you'll take between A and B. A great DO program and a lower tier MD program will likely not have a huge difference in terms of residency opportunities. It may rule out some of the top programs for residencies in some specialties, but the vast majority of opportunities will still be within your reach if you're willing to work hard through medical school and be creative with networking, extracurriculars, and rotation selection.

As for the inherent MD-vs.-DO thing or prestige thing or regional thing or any of the rest: no one's advice here is worth much. It's all on you. How important it is to you to go to one school or the other for the intangibles or how important it is to you the rare time you have to explain what DO means after your name (which I can't imagine coming up professionally other than the occasional private practice patient) is up to you to figure out after some navel gazing.

 

[st2205]

You're right. The amount of loans I'd have coming out of UMDNJSOM would be somewhere in the low 300s(not counting interest) since I have undergrad loans and the first year I'd be paying OOS tuition.

billypilgrim37, I think I'd like to obtain a residency in NYC/long Island(doesn't have to be manhattan) due to the fact that I have family ties to the area and used to live there. Are there still plenty of programs in the area that would take a DO?

I recognize that my desire to shoot for the MD may be largely in part due to egotism which I know is a rather foolish reason but there's no sense in denying it. At the same time I know that it's a bad trait and I shouldn't let that influence my decision so much since it hinders my efforts to be rational about my situation. I just don't want to regret being a DO once I start down this path. For example If I make mistakes, would others attribute them to my being a DO? I know I'm being immature and my example is such a silly and inane thing to be concerned over but I'm concerned over it. I worry I'll always feel like I'm not considered on the same plane as the majority of doctors(who are MDs).

I know that EVMS is a low-mid tier MD school but I don't think that means much since I doubt there is much of a difference in caliber among students across US MD schools(seeing that the minimum GPA and MCAT are still 3.6 and 31). Also, I'm only 'narcissistic' up to the point where I'd have a US MD so that I could at least be a part of the status quo. If I were to make a mistake, others would judge me the same as any other doctor(and not attribute it to my being from EVMS)

The above was more or less an uninhibited 'stream of consciousness'. I hope I don't get flamed as I realize my exposed insecurities are rather petty and something I should have overcome by now as a mature adult. As I've said though, these thoughts still affect me and I need some more advice on what I should do. Maybe, I should try tackling this from a different angle?

You have to ask yourself if peoples' potential opinions on you is worth the 1 year delay (minimum -- and assuming this is only a one year program) at at least $300,000.

 

[Abider]

You have to ask yourself if peoples' potential opinions on you is worth the 1 year delay (minimum -- and assuming this is only a one year program) at at least $300,000.

Additionally, think about putting down that kind of bet and riding it out all year for an acceptance.

Getting bored to tears or having doubts about my choices as an M1 was abated by being able to rope a dope for the pass. The SMP is full tilt the whole way. So we're also talking about a whole year of stress. M1 sucked bad enough for me without all that.

 

[peppy]

I just don't want to regret being a DO once I start down this path. For example If I make mistakes, would others attribute them to my being a DO? I know I'm being immature and my example is such a silly and inane thing to be concerned over but I'm concerned over it. I worry I'll always feel like I'm not considered on the same plane as the majority of doctors(who are MDs).

In med school, everyone around you will be a DO too so probably won't judge you for being one. By the time you're in residency, people are not going to be thinking about what med school you went to anymore. It's sort of like how most people don't care that much about what high school you went to after you're in college. Most people will assume you're an MD unless you make a point of drawing attention to being a DO. (I'm an MD according to my electronic signature and ID card from one of the hospitals we rotate at, because to most people any doctor is an MD).

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You're right. The amount of loans I'd have coming out of UMDNJSOM would be somewhere in the low 300s(not counting interest) since I have undergrad loans and the first year I'd be paying OOS tuition.

billypilgrim37, I think I'd like to obtain a residency in NYC/long Island(doesn't have to be manhattan) due to the fact that I have family ties to the area and used to live there. Are there still plenty of programs in the area that would take a DO?

With these two factors in mind, I might think more about the EVMS option. The money really isn't that different aside from that whole year of income, which is or isn't a big factor, depending on what you want out of life. How would you like living where EVMS is? If it would be a miserable 5 years based on your preference for the NYC area, maybe UMDNJSOM would be the better option. If you'd prefer being in Virginia than South Jersey, maybe EVMS would be better.

About your preferred practice location, I think having an MD might be an advantage at the "better known" programs in the NYC/LI area. We're all touching on elitist sounding issues here, but having an MD does open some more doors at some programs, and they will be more interested in someone from a no-name MD program than in a DO. It might not mean a ton, but it's out there.

 

[digitlnoize]

With these two factors in mind, I might think more about the EVMS option. The money really isn't that different aside from that whole year of income, which is or isn't a big factor, depending on what you want out of life. How would you like living where EVMS is? If it would be a miserable 5 years based on your preference for the NYC area, maybe UMDNJSOM would be the better option. If you'd prefer being in Virginia than South Jersey, maybe EVMS would be better.

About your preferred practice location, I think having an MD might be an advantage at the "better known" programs in the NYC/LI area. We're all touching on elitist sounding issues here, but having an MD does open some more doors at some programs, and they will be more interested in someone from a no-name MD program than in a DO. It might not mean a ton, but it's out there.

I have a lot of DO classmates doing residency in NYC. One of my very close friends is doing IM at Albert Einstein/Beth Israel in Manhattan. We've got a number of people doing ER, Peds, and who knows what else in NYC...and this is from a DO school in Florida...just sayin'. It doesn't stop you if you want it.

I would highly recommend not getting too stuck on a particular school. A number of schools have MUCH lower tuition than that (my school is just under 30k/year tuition, which is cheap for a DO school). If you are willing to take a year off, you might want to even consider moving to a state that has ULTRA low in-state tuition and establishing residency there. NC and TX come to mind, and also tend to have higher instate acceptance rates.

I can't stress enough about the "Opportunity Cost" of waiting. For each year you wait, you're losing at least $180k or so of attending salary, possibly quite a bit more. You're also losing any capital and interest you could have generated with that money. DO NOT WAIT if you can help it, unless you're not ready.

There is very little real difference (if any) between DO's and MD's. The high school/college analogy posted above is exactly right. There is no real distinctive "DO Philosophy", apart from "the body is a unit" which I think we can all agree is true.

Anyways, good luck!

 

[Dharma]

UMDNJ-SOM is a solid school, i.e. one of the better DO programs if that means anything to you OP. Geographically you're close to Philly as well, so maybe you can make in-roads there for away electives. You won't be an MD, but at least you'll be coming from a well-respected DO program that places a lot of students in ACMGE residencies.

As far as the SMP goes, those are most definitely trial by fire. It may turn out well for you, but having just finished up an SMP-like year myself, I can tell you that it's stressful as all hell knowing that if you don't make the grade, you're chances of admissions elsewhere start to dwindle. Still a tough call regarding your interest in research though. Sometimes you have to trust your gut and roll the dice.

Trust your gut.

 

[Darkskies]

Hi,
I know I shouldn't use this forum as a soapbox for my issues but nonetheless I thought I should update everyone about where things seem to be heading. I apologize if I am bothering anyone but I really do appreciate and have appreciated greatly the help and advice I've received from members here in the psychiatry forum.

I was accepted to Tulane's Anatomy Certification Program which is even more of a guaranteed spot in Tulane's MD class for the following year than any other special master's/certificate program(apart from Temple's SMP). The problem is that I have nowhere to get the funding from($12,250 tuition but doesn't qualify for student loans).

I was also accepted to Cincinatti's SMP off of the waitlist but it didn't seem like it would be a good deal seeing as how the students take nearly the full courseload of first year medical students in addition to having a hefty thesis to write. I didn't really mind this so much but combined with the fact that 6-8 people every year don't get in anywhere after completing the program(and some only garner acceptances to DO schools too), it didn't seem like it would be worth it even though it's a solid program(one of the ones that give you the best chances) according to the postbacc forums.

I don't think I have the opportunity to do the Cincinatti SMP anymore and what I hadn't realized was that after completion of the program I would qualify for Ohio state residency so that the overall loan burden on me would be MUCH less than from any other program. I wish I'd known this before...but what can I do now?

At this point then, it's mainly between EVMS medical master's and going to the DO school at UMDNJ. It looks like I'll be going to UMDNJ since the other option seems too risky and I would be burdened with 418k of debt after 5 years of schooling(1st year is the med master's). I won't lie in that I'm still somewhat disappointed with the the choice I'm making but I guess it makes the best financial sense,correct? I know I probably wouldn't want any surgical specialty but by going DO I feel like my chances at attaining the best programs and opportunities have been shot.. I know I shouldn't be hung up over stats but my 32R MCAT and 3.46 GPA are well above the DO average and I can't help but feel that I'm settling(albeit making a safe choice?). I just hope I don't experience a lot of discrimination for being a DO but if I know my stuff and do a good job it doesn't matter what the letters behind your name are right?

If I do want something competitive(or a competitive residency in psychiatry/not so competitive specialty) and I get great board scores I should still be able to get into solid programs right?


In the end though it's really just about the patients right?

Thanks guys!

 

[digitlnoize]

At this point then, it's mainly between EVMS medical master's and going to the DO school at UMDNJ. It looks like I'll be going to UMDNJ since the other option seems too risky and I would be burdened with 418k of debt after 5 years of schooling(1st year is the med master's). I won't lie in that I'm still somewhat disappointed with the the choice I'm making but I guess it makes the best financial sense,correct? I know I probably wouldn't want any surgical specialty but by going DO I feel like my chances at attaining the best programs and opportunities have been shot.. I know I shouldn't be hung up over stats but my 32R MCAT and 3.46 GPA are well above the DO average and I can't help but feel that I'm settling(albeit making a safe choice?). I just hope I don't experience a lot of discrimination for being a DO but if I know my stuff and do a good job it doesn't matter what the letters behind your name are right?

If I do want something competitive(or a competitive residency in psychiatry/not so competitive specialty) and I get great board scores I should still be able to get into solid programs right?

Many of my classmates had stats similar to yours. DO school is getting more and more competitive these days too.

I too was a bit worried about DO school, but it was an awesome experience and got me where I wanted to be.

I have not experienced a single iota of "DO discrimination", outside of the few things thrown around here on SDN, hahaha. In real life, not a bit.

My DO classmates matched into: ENT, many orthopedics, many radiology, MANY ER (our most popular field), about 10 psych (1 UVA, 2 Vanderbilt, 1 MUSC...can't remember all the others, but lots of good places), an IM prematch at Eistein in NYC, PM&R at Hopkins, and a zillion other awesome matches. More importantly, most people went where they WANTED to go. I got my #1. I got psych interviews at every MD program I applied to, except for Brown, UF, and U Arkansas, and I only took COMLEX and am a very average student.

You can pretty much do anything you want. Going to DO school is not going to stop you. Go with the fastest and cheapest route. The money lost due to the "opportunity cost" of medical school is enormous and each year you put off attending-ship is hundreds of thousands lost, on top of the student loan issue.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific DO questions...

 

[notdeadyet]

Why does Tulane's program not qualify for student loans? Certificate granting post bacs and SMPs should.

 

[Darkskies]

Why does Tulane's program not qualify for student loans? Certificate granting post bacs and SMPs should.

Tulane's program only awards a certificate(no thesis, just have to beat the average for the M-1s in Anatomy and you'll be accepted at the MD program for the following year). Most companies will not offer loans for non-degree granting programs. Even so I did find those that would...However, the program is associated with Tulane's SCB department and the students are not considered official matriculated students at Tulane. As such the financial aid department has nothing to do with it...This is the real dealbreaker since despite all of my attempts I was not able to find ANY student loan option that would send the money directly to the student or to any other department of a school other than through the financial aid department(or without first going through the financial aid department).

I spoke with a representative of the program and she told me some students use personal loans which is also not an option for me since I would have to pay like 500-600 dollars a month if I took out 25k(12.250k for tuition and the rest for living expenses). I don't think I could afford to do that..Not to mention the crazy API and interest rate on a personal loan. My parents can't help me either(not in the best economic situation).. On top of that they're pressuring me to just take the DO acceptance(they don't know anything about medical school and think it's all the same and don't want me to be in more debt since they won't be able to help me pay it off)..

I'm slightly worried about living all the way in New Orleans too..The main issue though(apart from somehow desperately finding a source for paying the tuition/living expenses) is that I'm worried that if I turn down my DO acceptance now, would I still be readmitted next year if for some awful reason I don't get into Tulane/EVMS or another MD school?

Thanks for the support.. This situation has been eating away at me all year! I just hope I don't have it affecting me(my mood/outlook) for the rest of my life!

 

[drno31]

I'm slightly worried about living all the way in New Orleans too..The main issue though(apart from somehow desperately finding a source for paying the tuition/living expenses) is that I'm worried that if I turn down my DO acceptance now, would I still be readmitted next year if for some awful reason I don't get into Tulane/EVMS or another MD school?

It sounds like you're REALLY looking for reasons not to take this spot at the SOM. You've already listed so many disadvantages to these post-bacc programs, which only offer a strong chance of entering the corresponding MD program (that is to say, not 100% chance). The only disadvantage you've mentioned to the SOM is graduating as a DO instead of an MD. You need ask yourself: is gambling on your future, financially and with the uncertainty of attaining an MD spot, worth the rewards?

 

[whopper]

Make sure the numbers you got concerning EVMS are correct. Reason why I say this is because I knew people who did a similar program at NYMC and hardly anyone in that program got into an MD school. Most people ended up leaving that program 2 years behind and another 40-50K in debt and it did nothing to advance their career.

NYMC only ended up taking about 2-3 people per year from their master's program, and the other people from that program that did get into MD school would've gotten in anyway, they were flukes (e.g. MCAT of 35, GPA of 3.8, good LORs, but they just didn't get in on the first try). The vast majority of people in that program paid money and put in time for pretty much nothing.

The MD vs DO thing is way overhyped, especially in the minds of premeds. If someone told me they'd give me 400K to change my MD to a DO, I'd be fine with it. Yeah I know you can't do that, but everyone I work with judges me on the quality of my work, not if I'm an MD or DO.

 

[Darkskies]

Make sure the numbers you got concerning EVMS are correct. Reason why I say this is because I knew people who did a similar program at NYMC and hardly anyone in that program got into an MD school. Most people ended up leaving that program 2 years behind and another 40-50K in debt and it did nothing to advance their career.

NYMC only ended up taking about 2-3 people per year from their master's program, and the other people from that program that did get into MD school would've gotten in anyway, they were flukes (e.g. MCAT of 35, GPA of 3.8, good LORs, but they just didn't get in on the first try). The vast majority of people in that program paid money and put in time for pretty much nothing.

The MD vs DO thing is way overhyped, especially in the minds of premeds. If someone told me they'd give me 400K to change my MD to a DO, I'd be fine with it. Yeah I know you can't do that, but everyone I work with judges me on the quality of my work, not if I'm an MD or DO.

I am quite sure about the numbers. Believe me, I've done my research and the programs I've named are the best shots at an MD via the SMP route. The only issue is that even though their outcomes are the best(in comparison to the plethora of other programs like NYMC,etc.) there's still a percentage that don't get in.. With EVMS it's more the total debt burden I'm worrying over.. Tulane ACP is an issue about finding the funding money(since doesn't qualify for student loans) and maybe the adjustment I'd have to make to move to New Orleans.

At Cincinatti 70-75% get into an MD school but that means about 25% don't and several are accepted to DO schools so I didn't think it was that great a program especially considering it's the most rigorous SMP available. The students take the full M-1 courseload(barring one or two courses I think) and have to write a thesis, do presentations, etc. that account for much of their grade. It's generally extolled in the postbacc forums but I thought the outcomes weren't too great. What I missed however was that completion of the program grants you Ohio State residency so you would pay in-state tuition for the next 4 years at Cincinnati which would be such a great deal! I think my chances for this program are nonexistent now since I didn't send my deposit money in time and they must have moved on to the next person on the waitlist..

 

[peppy]

Thanks for the support.. This situation has been eating away at me all year! I just hope I don't have it affecting me(my mood/outlook) for the rest of my life!

I would say that it is far more likely that in a couple of years you'll wonder why you were so worried about this.
Being a DO is not that big of a deal. Do you actually have in mind some specific opportunity that you think you're missing out on? Most likely, your life isn't going to be that different because you went to a DO school.
If it's any consolation, my MCAT score was higher than yours and I went DO. The same skills that allowed me to do well on the MCAT helped me do well on the USMLE and that helped me get interviews at a lot of good programs. You won't be forced to work at some crappy program in a bad specialty just because you're a DO. If you have what it takes, you can still do what you want.

 

[Darkskies]

I would say that it is far more likely that in a couple of years you'll wonder why you were so worried about this.
Being a DO is not that big of a deal. Do you actually have in mind some specific opportunity that you think you're missing out on? Most likely, your life isn't going to be that different because you went to a DO school.
If it's any consolation, my MCAT score was higher than yours and I went DO. The same skills that allowed me to do well on the MCAT helped me do well on the USMLE and that helped me get interviews at a lot of good programs. You won't be forced to work at some crappy program in a bad specialty just because you're a DO. If you have what it takes, you can still do what you want.

I guess what I'm worried about is if I want a competitive specialty(for example radiology) my chances are very slim coming from a DO school. Like I've mentioned, I don't think I'd really be interested in surgical specialties but even if I wanted Psychiatry or IM in a desirable location or very reputable/brand name programs my chances would also be slim. I'm fine with not getting into the best program out there but I think for residency and afterwards I would prefer to live in the northeast(where I've grown up and where most of my family and friends are). My impression is that most residencies in the NY/NJ/CT/PA area are elevated in competitiveness..

Do most people even move cross country after residency? For example if they were able to obtain a desirable residency in the midwest but not in the northeast but after residency would like to live in the northeast?

What about research/academia opportunities coming from a DO school(would like to keep my options open)?

I just want to make sure I end up in a decent program and learn and practice my specialty well.

Since seats at medical schools are increasing with no increase in residency spots, will my future as a DO in obtaining a residency of my choice be more difficult than it has been for current DOs in practice? This is something that I'm rather worried over.

On the other hand I looked at SUNY Upstate's radiology program(randomly chosen competitive specialty) and it seems like most of their first year residents this year are either FMGs or DOs. That's pretty encouraging. Are Upstate NY residency programs not difficult for DOs to break into?

Thanks.

 

[digitlnoize]

I guess what I'm worried about is if I want a competitive specialty(for example radiology) my chances are very slim coming from a DO school.

Not necessarily true. Like I said, I have a number of friends who got into very competitive fields. I know more than a few radiology, ortho, ENT, derm, etc matches.

Now, I will say that I don't know many DO's who matched into super-competitive programs at super-competitive places. Not that you can't, but THAT is probably hard...but it'd be just as hard from EVMS. You'll be hard pressed to find an EVMS grad at Yale Radiology (or wherever, just picked a random place, you know what I mean)...

Being a DO will NOT in any way stop you from doing what you want.

Like I've mentioned, I don't think I'd really be interested in surgical specialties but even if I wanted Psychiatry or IM in a desirable location or very reputable/brand name programs my chances would also be slim. I'm fine with not getting into the best program out there but I think for residency and afterwards I would prefer to live in the northeast(where I've grown up and where most of my family and friends are). My impression is that most residencies in the NY/NJ/CT/PA area are elevated in competitiveness..

Not remotely true. I got a TON of psych interviews at desirable places. One of my best friends pre-matched to a competitive NYC program. Another friend matched to PM&R at Hopkins. The non-competitive fields are WIDE open. You can likely do psych wherever you want.

Do most people even move cross country after residency? For example if they were able to obtain a desirable residency in the midwest but not in the northeast but after residency would like to live in the northeast?

I don't have the exact numbers handy, but something around 60% of doctors wind up practicing in the place they do their residency. It's even higher in psych, probably because we get so intertwined with the community resources.

Some people move though...it's more of a personal preference.

[/quote]What about research/academia opportunities coming from a DO school(would like to keep my options open)? [/quote]

Totally an open option. I would say that if you REALLY, REALLY want to do research, most DO schools don't have as much going on and you'd have to work harder to make your own opportunities, but it's not that hard either if you're interested.

But, for residency all bets are off. There's quite a good chance you'd be able to get a University program and do all the research you want.

Since seats at medical schools are increasing with no increase in residency spots, will my future as a DO in obtaining a residency of my choice be more difficult than it has been for current DOs in practice? This is something that I'm rather worried over.

It's possible, but the first people to get squeezed out will be the carribean grads. Also, there are the DO residency spots too, although they tend to be slightly less desirable, mostly for location reasons.

On the other hand I looked at SUNY Upstate's radiology program(randomly chosen competitive specialty) and it seems like most of their first year residents this year are either FMGs or DOs. That's pretty encouraging. Are Upstate NY residency programs not difficult for DOs to break into?

Probably one of the least competitive LOCATIONS out there. NO ONE wants to live in Syracuse. It's kind of a dump and it's got TERRIBLE weather. [/QUOTE]

It's hard to extrapolate this to every field ever, but if you want to do psych, you can go ANYWHERE you want from a DO school. I am an average student who didn't even take USMLE and I got more interview invites than I could handle and matched at my #1 at a competitive University program in a desirable location. I have DO classmates who matched at Vandy and MUSC psych, both competitive, strong university/research places. Very, very, very doable.

Your success is up to YOU, not the initials after your name.

 

[peppy]

I agree with digitlnoize.
Yes, there are situations where being a DO is a disadvantage, but in many cases it's really not that big of a deal. And, yes, even if you do end up in a residency you're not crazy about, people relocate after residency all the time. There's nothing stopping you from doing so. It's just that many people choose not to move away because often people end up putting down roots during residency such as buying a house during residency, or the spouse has a job in the area, etc.

 

[vistaril]

The value of the MD will only come through at about the top 10 or so residency programs in the more desirable cities. If you don't have to be at one of those, then don't give it another thought. You're still going to be the same student (for better or worse) whether you wait a year or not, and your performance at a DO school vs a mid-low-tiered MD school (which is probably where you'd be going, based on what you've said) is pretty minimal. If you wanted to take a year off to do something fun, great. But a post-bacc year is a waste of your life if you don't ABSOLUTELY need it to get in somewhere. Do a good job in medical school, and you will be in about the same position either way.

You don't know me on the forum much, but I'm much harder about these issues than most people. I want to be in academics, went to a top 10 med school on a full scholarship, and I'm a chief at one of those "top 10 or so" residency programs. So, if narcissistic billypilgrim37 says you should go the DO route, you should probably go the DO route!

but it's likely/possible that the OP won't even do psychiatry....

I agree if he does psychiatry, it isn't of much consequence. Or pathology, family medicine, peds at many places, etc......

but if he ends up doing something moderately competitive, the difference between going to a normal(ie not bad but not good) allopathic med school like EVMS vs going to a DO school is not insignificant.

That said, If I were in his situation, I would pick the DO route. It's a guaranteed admission, and apparently a good bit less money

 

[vistaril]

You're getting great advice here, Darkskies. Look at the financial issue very carefully to situation carefully to figure what kind of hit you'll take between A and B. A great DO program and a lower tier MD program will likely not have a huge difference in terms of residency opportunities. It may rule out some of the top programs for residencies in some specialties, but the vast majority of opportunities will still be within your reach if you're willing to work hard through medical school and be creative with networking, extracurriculars, and rotation selection.

As for the inherent MD-vs.-DO thing or prestige thing or regional thing or any of the rest: no one's advice here is worth much. It's all on you. How important it is to you to go to one school or the other for the intangibles or how important it is to you the rare time you have to explain what DO means after your name (which I can't imagine coming up professionally other than the occasional private practice patient) is up to you to figure out after some navel gazing.

I didnt go there, but EVMS is not a "lower tier" MD program. It's a fairly typical large allopathic school. It's not a top 20 type of school, but it's also not one of the allopathic schools that has a certain niche focus(ie HBCU's, very regional rural ones, etc) with avg stats approaching DO schools.

 

[vistaril]

Not necessarily true. Like I said, I have a number of friends who got into very competitive fields. I know more than a few radiology, ortho, ENT, derm, etc matches.

Now, I will say that I don't know many DO's who matched into super-competitive programs at super-competitive places. Not that you can't, but THAT is probably hard...but it'd be just as hard from EVMS. You'll be hard pressed to find an EVMS grad at Yale Radiology (or wherever, just picked a random place, you know what I mean)...

.

this is very misleading advice......adding two qualifiers to the mix(super competitive field at competitive location) is unfair. Very few people in general match spots like Derm at UCSF or whatever......add up all the "most elite" spots in derm, radonc, uro, ortho, ent, etc and you maybe have a couple hundred spots total. Seeing as how there are over 100 allopathic schools of course not many people from most large typical allopathic schools are going to end up getting those spots. But that's a false argument to hold up as to how a typical state school like evms is not really that much different than a DO school.

the most important restriction is always going to be specialty. it's a heck of a lot harder to match derm or radonc at the "worst" and least desirable programs than it is to match into pm&R, psych, family at the best program overlooking the most beautiful beach with the best weather......

someone from a typical(no EVMS is not a lower end allopathic school) has a much better chance to match into fields like derm, ortho, radonc, uro, etc than a DO student. That is an undeniable fact, and the difference is not trivial. For fields like radiology, it is much easier for a good DO student to match somewhere in these because there are many more spots, but it will still be a much harder thing to do. An average student, otoh(and by average I mean truly average not in the 20th percentile and called average) from a school like evms will match in rads for example if they apply fairly broadly. A average student from a DO school would be unlikely to match into an allo rads spot(but still possible)

not really disagreeing with a lot of what has been said in general tone(i would have chosen the DO school given the OP's situation)....just stating that there *is* a difference between most allopathic schools and DO schools. And also that EVMS is not a low end or whatever allo school. Most allo schools, save for the very top and the bottom 10-15, are pretty similar. EVMS isn't UCSF obviously, but it isn't meharry or University of west virginia either......

 

[vistaril]

I guess what I'm worried about is if I want a competitive specialty(for example radiology) my chances are very slim coming from a DO school. Like I've mentioned, I don't think I'd really be interested in surgical specialties but even if I wanted Psychiatry or IM in a desirable location or very reputable/brand name programs my chances would also be slim.


Thanks.

you're chance to go to a "top" IM program is slim from a DO school. It is much less slim as a DO in psych. There are a few programs(like literally 5 or 6) where it may be tough, but even at a lot of the bigger name programs a good DO candidate will get a look.....

Psych and IM shoudnt be compared. Some IM matches are very competitive. Just because it's easy to match "somwhere" in both IM and psych do not mean that the two are all that similar overall. At the top 30 or so programs in the nation, IM is pretty competitive....there arent 30 psych programs in the nation that are pretty competitive.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

you're chance to go to a "top" IM program is slim from a DO school. It is much less slim as a DO in psych. There are a few programs(like literally 5 or 6) where it may be tough, but even at a lot of the bigger name programs a good DO candidate will get a look.....

Psych and IM shoudnt be compared. Some IM matches are very competitive. Just because it's easy to match "somwhere" in both IM and psych do not mean that the two are all that similar overall. At the top 30 or so programs in the nation, IM is pretty competitive....there arent 30 psych programs in the nation that are pretty competitive.

The cheap shots at psychiatry pretty much end once we think about residency and career. There's no comparison between IM and psychiatry in terms of feeling your work makes a huge impact in someone's life (seeing someone go from completely dysfunctional on the streets, to holding a simple job), resident morale, having great work-life balance, and using interpersonal communication as a source of comfort and therapy for patients. Of course I'm biased, but there's truth to this too.

I digressed.

 

[BS81]

I'd like to add that if you want to do a more competitive specialty it might be easier to get in as a DO as you have the AOA residencies you can apply to

 

[vistaril]

The cheap shots at psychiatry pretty much end once we think about residency and career. There's no comparison between IM and psychiatry in terms of feeling your work makes a huge impact in someone's life (seeing someone go from completely dysfunctional on the streets, to holding a simple job), resident morale, having great work-life balance, and using interpersonal communication as a source of comfort and therapy for patients. Of course I'm biased, but there's truth to this too.

I digressed.

well I dont neccessarily agree or disagree, but not sure what that has to do with anything.....the OP is talking about his potential difficulty in matching into certain fields/programs in certain areas.

 

[vistaril]

I'd like to add that if you want to do a more competitive specialty it might be easier to get in as a DO as you have the AOA residencies you can apply to

yes, but some of these are of questionable value. Additionally, DO derm, for example, is just a complete mess.....most of those 17 slots require completing a whole IM residency first and then you have a "shot" to get the derm slot at that same program.....

 

[BS81]

you're chance to go to a "top" IM program is slim from a DO school. It is much less slim as a DO in psych. There are a few programs(like literally 5 or 6) where it may be tough, but even at a lot of the bigger name programs a good DO candidate will get a look.....

Psych and IM shoudnt be compared. Some IM matches are very competitive. Just because it's easy to match "somwhere" in both IM and psych do not mean that the two are all that similar overall. At the top 30 or so programs in the nation, IM is pretty competitive....there arent 30 psych programs in the nation that are pretty competitive.

Shouldn't be compared? I know you don't think very highly of psych, but there is no reason to inflate IM competitiveness. These top 30 or so programs are off-limits to DOs just as the top 10-20 psych programs. Don't forget that there are 5 times as many spots in IM than psych, so expecting there to be equal number of competitive programs in both is kind of ridiculous.

 

[digitlnoize]

Shouldn't be compared? I know you don't think very highly of psych, but there is no reason to inflate IM competitiveness. These top 30 or so programs are off-limits to DOs just as the top 10-20 psych programs. Don't forget that there are 5 times as many spots in IM than psych, so expecting there to be equal number of competitive programs in both is kind of ridiculous.

My DO IM friends got very competitive matches. I don't think there are more than 5 places of each that *might* be "off limits" for DOs. It should be added that 99.9% of the places that would have an issue with a DO would have an issue with anyone not from "Ivy-Land."

I certainly can't think of THIRTY (lol) IM programs that would be off limits.

 

[notdeadyet]

I don't think there are more than 5 places of each that *might* be "off limits" for DOs. It should be added that 99.9% of the places that would have an issue with a DO would have an issue with anyone not from "Ivy-Land."

I think the disadvantage of being accepted to the allopathic residencies as a DO is largely exagerated, but I wouldn't go that far.

I don't know of many residencies that are "off limits" to DOs, but there are a small group that doesn't typically (or ever) take them. And these same programs don't take just Ivy grads. They typically get folks from good allopathic med schools, but not exclusively.

I think the view of DO among allopathic PDs in general has gotten much better in the past 10 years but it will be interesting to see what happens in the year ahead. With the big opening of many new DO schools quickly and poor quality control, that reputation may back slide if the AOA doesn't start learning to flex a bit.

 

[vistaril]

Shouldn't be compared? I know you don't think very highly of psych, but there is no reason to inflate IM competitiveness. These top 30 or so programs are off-limits to DOs just as the top 10-20 psych programs. Don't forget that there are 5 times as many spots in IM than psych, so expecting there to be equal number of competitive programs in both is kind of ridiculous.

no, because IM programs typically have 3-4 times as many spots per program...that balances it out.

And DO's are most certainly competitive at over half of the top 30 psych programs.

 

[vistaril]

My DO IM friends got very competitive matches. I don't think there are more than 5 places of each that *might* be "off limits" for DOs. It should be added that 99.9% of the places that would have an issue with a DO would have an issue with anyone not from "Ivy-Land."

I certainly can't think of THIRTY (lol) IM programs that would be off limits.

you arent thinking very hard then.....maybe some of them wouldnt be 100% off limits, but a pretty darn uphill battle....

when people say IM is "not competitive", they don't mean IM at good university programs. Psych at good university programs is still fairly noncompetitive.

 

[vistaril]

I think the disadvantage of being accepted to the allopathic residencies as a DO is largely exagerated, but I wouldn't go that far.

I don't know of many residencies that are "off limits" to DOs, but there are a small group that doesn't typically (or ever) take them. And these same programs don't take just Ivy grads. They typically get folks from good allopathic med schools, but not exclusively.

I think the view of DO among allopathic PDs in general has gotten much better in the past 10 years but it will be interesting to see what happens in the year ahead. With the big opening of many new DO schools quickly and poor quality control, that reputation may back slide if the AOA doesn't start learning to flex a bit.

the desire for all american med schools(MD and DO) except for harvard/hopkins/ucsf/etc to be viewed as "pretty much the same" is sad and pathetic.

There is a non-trivial difference in opportunity(maybe not as much in psych though because the comp is so low to begin with) between say a student at Ohio State medical school(just to pick one "average" allo school) and a DO student.

 

[Darkskies]

Hi everyone,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this thread. I'm in NJ now and won't have continuous internet access at my residence until early this coming week. Even after my white coat ceremony I feel uneasy. I just feel like giving up and forgetting about my worries. I feel that since I've more or less moved in(though it's a sparse habitation) it's too late now to change my decision. This is especially because my parents think medical school is medical school and they were getting frustrated that I couldn't make up my mind. I can't imagine how unhappy and stressed out they would be if I told them that I want to do the medical master's at EVMS at this point after already going through the white coat ceremony at UMDNJ.

I know it's my fault since I couldn't make up my mind(and still can't though I guess the decision's already made) but I guess a part of me felt that willingly going into debt of what would ultimately be 418k would be a profligate thing to do..The thought of that much debt just frightened me too much. On top of that it's not a 100% guarantee(though the best guarantee you could get for medical school) and I would lose out on another year.

On the other hand the ~290k debt at UMDNJ should be just as frightening since I wouldn't be able to pay that back either if for some reason I don't perform well as a physician.I honestly don't feel proud or excited to be beginning school at UMDNJ. I hope the latter comment doesn't ruffle any feathers since I'm only stating the truth and I don't mean for it to be offensive. In any case I guess the only route left for me now is to do the best I can in my courses and board exams and see where it takes me.

I truly do/did appreciate everyone's advice on the Psychiatry board. You all have been an immense help in guiding me through this decision process. I am grateful for your invaluable advice and for the invaluable resources available on SDN.

 

[billypilgrim37]

On the other hand the ~290k debt at UMDNJ should be just as frightening since I wouldn't be able to pay that back either if for some reason I don't perform well as a physician.I honestly don't feel proud or excited to be beginning school at UMDNJ. I hope the latter comment doesn't ruffle any feathers since I'm only stating the truth and I don't mean for it to be offensive. In any case I guess the only route left for me now is to do the best I can in my courses and board exams and see where it takes me.

Again, I'm a snob from a "top 10" med school and a "top 10" residency, and I think you made a really fine decision. The most dangerous thing you can do right now is not be proud of yourself and not be excited to be a physician, which is what you are going to be in four years as long as you don't self-pity yourself into failing out. Seriously. You are pretty much your only enemy at this point. Get over the narcissistic injury (get into therapy sooner rather than later if you're struggling), and start studying. Your colleagues will be a mix of other folks who were disappointed they didn't get into an allopathic school and a small number of people who chose the osteopathic route over the allopathic one. At the end, you'll probably be with everybody else trumpeting the superiority of your path and annoying the **** out of allopaths who don't give a ****. Which is to say, you could be perfectly happy and doing just fine!

You just started medical school. Your only worries right now should be surviving the next quiz/test and getting laid.

 

[peppy]

In any case I guess the only route left for me now is to do the best I can in my courses and board exams and see where it takes me.

Yes, I think that's the only thing that's going to help you get over these feelings.
Try not to lose perspective. You're going to be a doctor. You're going to get to do a job that many people dream about doing and earn more money than most people will ever see in their lives. Even if you don't get the exact residency spot you want, you're still going to have a good life. Lots of people don't get exactly what they want in terms of med school or residency but still have a good life.
I also think by the time you graduate, you'll look back at all the effort and work you put into getting there and be proud of where you came from. As you get to know your classmates I suspect that you'll find that you're in good company with people who also have a lot to offer the profession. There's nothing to be ashamed about in going to this school.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Again, I'm a snob from a "top 10" med school and a "top 10" residency, and I think you made a really fine decision.

Speaking of snobbiness, we're all aware of your status, meaning that it means something to you and to other people. I don't think jumping on vistaril for speaking some of the truth about elitism in our field was the right tactic. Not to say you did it, but where you go to school does matter in some very narrow circumstances, and it obviously leads to some sense of self-accomplishment that you have. Of course I shouldn't be talking because I've shared my own successes at my no name medical school, so obviously that stuff matters to me, too. And I choose to pay more to attend an allopathic school rather than an osteopathic school and can't say I regret that decision.

Now, Darkskies, I still don't feel like there's a right or wrong decision in your circumstances. If you really wanted, you still could jump ship to the EVMS route, but it sounds like you don't really want to do that. And you'll probably feel better after you get settled anyway. I think being aware of all these feelings is actually good, and maybe some reality testing wouldn't hurt -- you really have accomplished a lot more than most people. Most people don't get into any medical school, and you would have gotten into EVMS if you had decided to pursue that path.

And of course the one thing that wasn't in dispute in this thread is that you can be a great physician and find all sorts of personal fulfillment whether you go.