RUMOR: PD's talking to eachother, deciding who to take etc.

[Poety]

Ok, this is TOTAL rumor I was told by a resident but I'm wondering how true it is. They sounded "convinced" when they shared this with me (like they had found out about it after they matched)

So it goes like this: Each year PD's talk to eachother about the applicant pool and decide where you will be ranked on their list! For instance, and I'll use the example I was given. Say you are a male which are in high demand in OBGYN, and you apply to all these programs - well they talk to eachother and decide who will rank you high enough to match there since you are so competitive. i.e. You apply to x,y,z each one of those institutions want you - so they talk to eachother and x tells y, hey I gave you so and so last year, so I want you to give me <your name here> this year because I need more males/diversity/<insert reason here>. Now, although this wouldn't really affect the "match" as far as you getting matched with the highest on your list, it WOULD affect how many possiblities you have.

Any PD's know if there is any truth to this rumor - or does anyone have anything else to add to either back this up or rebuke it?

How many of you think this is true? If it is, kinda sucks if you're not in the super "competitive" league doesn't it?

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[Apollyon]

To do so would be "collusion" which is "antitrust" which is "illegal". This was/is part of the core of the AMSA lawsuit.

It may CERTAINLY be happening, but no one will ever talk about it, since that would 1. be admitting to a crime individually and 2. open up multiple institutions to the RICO statute and 3. put the specific residencies out of business.

The match is nominally egalitarian, voluntary, and free of coercion. If one side was "stacking the deck", that would capsize the boat.

 

[LADoc00]

Im confused, males are in demand for OB??? This is news to me......sounds interesting tho

 

[docB]

I don't see how there would be an advantage to the PDs to do what you're saying, to essentially trade prospects like draft picks. They would just be creating the possibility of losing the wanted pick altogether. This is classis "prisoner's dilemma" style game theory. This is because the PDs don't know how the prospect's rank list really looks and because they can't poll every PD for their specialty. If PD A and PD B colluded to try to place a given applicant with PD A they would have to agree for PD A to rank the applicant highly and for PD B to not rank the applicant. If the applicant had preferred site B and ranked it highly but ranked site A lower then he may wind up with site C and the PDs at A and B both lose.

I do know that PDs talk but it's mainly to see if an applicant is saying they they are his top pick to everyone and to swap stories. For example if you no show an interview that will get around.

 

[Poety]

I don't see how there would be an advantage to the PDs to do what you're saying, to essentially trade prospects like draft picks. They would just be creating the possibility of losing the wanted pick altogether. This is classis "prisoner's dilemma" style game theory. This is because the PDs don't know how the prospect's rank list really looks and because they can't poll every PD for their specialty. If PD A and PD B colluded to try to place a given applicant with PD A they would have to agree for PD A to rank the applicant highly and for PD B to not rank the applicant. If the applicant had preferred site B and ranked it highly but ranked site A lower then he may wind up with site C and the PDs at A and B both lose.

I do know that PDs talk but it's mainly to see if an applicant is saying they they are his top pick to everyone and to swap stories. For example if you no show an interview that will get around.

let me clarify, I did NOT TALK TO ANY PD'S THAT SAID THIS NOR DO I KNOW OF IT HAPPENING - it was a rumor I heard from a resident who seemed convinced it happens. (And not in the specialty I'm applying to so...) I have NO IDEA how this whole thing really works, I was just interested to see what other peoples reactions to this would be.

As for my POV on it: I wouldn't think it would be fair at all either, however I am glad to learn its illegal as post #2 said. I have heard that they talk about the interview and that they do know eachother etc etc, I mean afterall these people must be at the least associates right?

It's great to see what people's view is on this, hope this thread stays alive for a while!

 

[Poety]

Im confused, males are in demand for OB??? This is news to me......sounds interesting tho

Here again, this is what I was told... I have no idea if they are or not

 

[fedor]

I tend to agree with docB that this is very unlikely.

What is not only likely, but certain and ubiquitous, is that under the table offers are given to applicants outside the match or through the match but with both parties knowing ahead of time exactly what the rankings will be. It's illegal but happens very often, and even at some of the best programs.

 

[orientedtoself]

Im confused, males are in demand for OB??? This is news to me......sounds interesting tho

They can diversify their class by adding men. 75% of OB/GYN residents are women.

 

[Poety]

They can diversify their class by adding men. 75% of OB/GYN residents are women.

So do you think this does happen orientedtoself?

 

[orientedtoself]

So do you think this does happen orientedtoself?

It's hard to know if it actually does happen. But if I were a PD in OB, I would try to get a class that is at least 1/4, maybe 1/3 male. OB residencies are so estrogen-laden.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I think this would be hard to do in most fields as most applicants apply to AT LEAST 15 programs and lets say you are a stud so you interview at 5 places, I dont know how they could find out who else you interviewed with nor would they know where you want to be.

Of course in the example given there are few men in OB and if you decided to stick to a geographic preference and made that known that could be enough to help them. The thing is I dont think there are that many people who do that.

 

[Pilot Doc]

The ivy league schools used to do something similar to this for undergrad admissions. (They stopped after a lawsuit.) However, the point of it was to avoid financial aid battles between schools competing over students.

I can't see a motivation for residency PD's to do this - most places have a almost completely fixed, take it or leave it package. There's no incentive for programs to attempt to reduce their competition for residents.

 

[Casey James]

It's illegal but happens very often, and even at some of the best programs.

even at some of the best programs. That's very amusing. Thanks.

 

[cytoborg]

I do know that PDs talk but it's mainly to see if an applicant is saying they they are his top pick to everyone and to swap stories. For example if you no show an interview that will get around.

Yep. They're not wrangling draft picks (against the rules) but PDs within small fields and/or local geographic areas are often friends and do talk to each other and compare notes. I agree that they are mostly making sure you aren't full of bull**** and/or telling multiple programs they're #1. Just behave yourself and you'll be fine.

 

[mosche]

This would explain the proverbial "Where else did you apply" question!

 

[Casey James]

Ok, this is TOTAL rumor I was told by a resident but I'm wondering how true it is. They sounded "convinced" when they shared this with me (like they had found out about it after they matched)

So it goes like this: Each year PD's talk to eachother about the applicant pool and decide where you will be ranked on their list! For instance, and I'll use the example I was given. Say you are a male which are in high demand in OBGYN, and you apply to all these programs - well they talk to eachother and decide who will rank you high enough to match there since you are so competitive. i.e. You apply to x,y,z each one of those institutions want you - so they talk to eachother and x tells y, hey I gave you so and so last year, so I want you to give me <your name here> this year because I need more males/diversity/<insert reason here>. Now, although this wouldn't really affect the "match" as far as you getting matched with the highest on your list, it WOULD affect how many possiblities you have.

Any PD's know if there is any truth to this rumor - or does anyone have anything else to add to either back this up or rebuke it?

How many of you think this is true? If it is, kinda sucks if you're not in the super "competitive" league doesn't it?

It's not that shocking. PD's talk to each other all the time in match season. They all know each other anyway and many of them are good friends. A phone call from one old buddy to another will definately improve your matching chances. Favors are returned and ongoing arrangements are forged. Many PD's or faculty members have strong ties at other establishments were they trained. Often they have the power to send a student of their choosing to their old program each cycle, as long as a worthy student is available. It makes sense too. Programs would rather have someone vetted by an insider who has known them for a long time than take their chances on an unknown with only an essay, some grades and a short interview to go by. Yes, they all talk. Yes, a substantial proportion of matches take place this way. Yes, this is more common with the more elite schools. But if you think there's some sort of organized "fixing" of the rank list every year, then you're kidding yourself. The match is chaos for them, just like it is for us. Old friends help each other out once in a while. But old friends also vie in rivalry with each other to get their hands on the best candidates. We all know of people with "arranged" matches that were dissapointed on match day. Likewise we've heard of PD's who have fallen out over lies told to each other in the process. PD's are not so different to us. We scheme and politick, sometimes for mutual gain, sometimes not. There is much entropy in the match for everyone.

 

[mosche]

It's not that shocking. PD's talk to each other all the time in match season. They all know each other anyway and many of them are good friends. A phone call from one old buddy to another will definately improve your matching chances. Favors are returned and ongoing arrangements are forged. Many PD's or faculty members have strong ties at other establishments were they trained. Often they have the power to send a student of their choosing to their old program each cycle, as long as a worthy student is available. It makes sense too. Programs would rather have someone vetted by an insider who has known them for a long time than take their chances on an unknown with only an essay, some grades and a short interview to go by. Yes, they all talk. Yes, a substantial proportion of matches take place this way. Yes, this is more common the more elite the school is. But if you think there's some sort of organized "fixing" of the rank list every year, then you're kidding yourself. The match is chaos for them, just like it is for us. Yes, old friends help each other out once in a while. But old friends also vie in rivalry with each other to get their hands on the best candidates. We all know of people with "arranged" matches that were dissapointed on match day. Likewise we've heard of PD's who have fallen out over lies told to each other in the process. PD's are not so different to us. We scheme and politick, sometimes for mutual gain, sometimes not. There is much entropy in the match for everyone.

I don't think that anyone has a problem with PD "A" calling PD "B" to arrange an interview invite. However, when the two PDs start making deals as to the actual match, THEN there IS A PROBLEM. My PD arranged for my interview at his alma mater. He did not, however (as far as I know), arrange my match there. If I discover that he did, I will be PISSED -- not because I don't want to match there, per se ; but because I wasted all that money on interviews elsewhere!

 

[Casey James]

I don't think that anyone has a problem with PD "A" calling PD "B" to arrange an interview invite. However, when the two PDs start making deals as to the actual match, THEN there IS A PROBLEM. My PD arranged for my interview at his alma mater. He did not, however (as far as I know), arrange my match there. If I discover that he did, I will be PISSED -- not because I don't want to match there, per se ; but because I wasted all that money on interviews elsewhere!

Arrange, regotiate, recommend. Whatever. A rose by any other name.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

My PD would probably have said 1) "Who the hell has time for all this manipulation?", and 2) that the only time he talked to another PD was when he was trying to facilitate couple's matching and figure out if the local program in another discipline was going to take the spouse of someone he wanted.

 

[beyond all hope]

As mentioned, they are frequently friends, especially in smaller specialities all of the PDs in the area probably all know each other pretty well. They do mention applicants (I know this for a fact, heard it happening), but as the previous poster mentioned I highly doubt that any jockeying goes on.

 

[robotsonic]

I heard that there is actually an auction for residency applicants. The PDs all get together at a secret location in Mexico and bid on them. The winner gets to rank the applicant first and the losers have to rank the person below 50 on their rank lists. It can be pretty fierce, especially for desirable applicants, such as males in OB/GYN and Irish-Americans in peds (they have noticed that in recent years they just haven't been getting enough peds residents of Irish ancestry). The best thing to do to secure a spot at your top choice is to send a note to the PD saying, "I know about Mexico. Rank me first and I won't tell the feds."

 

[DrDre']

If you are Irish but have Celiac sprue, they willl rank you lower! Do not fall into the trap of discussing your inability to eat pizza and such!

 

[valedictorian]

PD's would never talk to each other about applicants. They are highly honorable individuals seasoned by decades of the most strict adherance to professional standards. If you think they'd do anything illegal then your level of cynicism probably makes you unfit for medical practice. You don't get to be a program director without demonstrating genuine character and integrity!

 

[orientedtoself]

PD's would never talk to each other about applicants. They are highly honorable individuals seasoned by decades of the most strict adherance to professional standards. If you think they'd do anything illegal then your level of cynicism probably makes you unfit for medical practice. You don't get to be a program director without demonstrating genuine character and integrity!

They are people. People aren't perfect.

 

[Poety]

I heard that there is actually an auction for residency applicants. The PDs all get together at a secret location in Mexico and bid on them. The winner gets to rank the applicant first and the losers have to rank the person below 50 on their rank lists. It can be pretty fierce, especially for desirable applicants, such as males in OB/GYN and Irish-Americans in peds (they have noticed that in recent years they just haven't been getting enough peds residents of Irish ancestry). The best thing to do to secure a spot at your top choice is to send a note to the PD saying, "I know about Mexico. Rank me first and I won't tell the feds."

 

[mosche]

PD's would never talk to each other about applicants. They are highly honorable individuals seasoned by decades of the most strict adherance to professional standards. If you think they'd do anything illegal then your level of cynicism probably makes you unfit for medical practice. You don't get to be a program director without demonstrating genuine character and integrity!

 

[Idiopathic]

Yep. They're not wrangling draft picks (against the rules) but PDs within small fields and/or local geographic areas are often friends and do talk to each other and compare notes. I agree that they are mostly making sure you aren't full of bull**** and/or telling multiple programs they're #1. Just behave yourself and you'll be fine.

No way. What would they do with this info? Like they arent going to rank you to match based on the fact that you are pimping yourself out to whoever will take you. A program is gonna rank you based on where they want you, it isnt like they risk anything by doing it differently.

edit: and if I tell every program in the country that they are number 1, I expect them all to believe me and adjust accordingly.

 

[Hurricane]

What is not only likely, but certain and ubiquitous, is that under the table offers are given to applicants outside the match or through the match but with both parties knowing ahead of time exactly what the rankings will be. It's illegal but happens very often, and even at some of the best programs.

I know a couple who received such an offer from a top program. She was trying to match in IM, and her husband was a resident trying to get into an IM specialty fellowship. Since there is no joint residency-fellowship couples match, they had to go under the table to end up at the same place. Can't say I blame them.

 

[njbmd]

Hey there,
PDs do discuss the very top students since there are not that many of them. Sometimes it's something like a phone call. If you are AOA, look for the PDs to have discussed you especially the PD from your home institution.

I applied to my home institution (courtesy)with no plans to do residency there only because it was pretty inbred at the time (has since changed). I know that some of the things that I said in my interview at my home institution had been discussed as a couple of PDs already knew about them before I arrived. Had to have been a phone call.

This wasn't a negative or a positive but just a fact.

njbmd

 

[robotsonic]

PDs do discuss the very top students since there are not that many of them.

Ah, good. I don't need to worry then.

 

[Casey James]

Ah, good. I don't need to worry then.

 

[chicamedica]

I wouldn't be surprised at ALL if PD's communicate with each other to discuss applicants. In fact, i'll be more surprised if it's not going on. I dont know about "trading" issue.

I'm sure PD's all talk to each other, and even if they can't access the lists of other programs applicants apply to, all it takes is a phone call. Within a specialty, it's a very very small world. It works both ways though. A PD who knows you well could phone in a good word about you to another program's PD.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Interesting discussion.

I have heard that PD's do talk to each other. Remember how people on this forum say, "it's ok to send a letter to your favorite program telling them that you will rank them #1"? Yeah, well let's say PD at program A and PD at program B are good friends and they do discuss the applicant pool. You wrote program B saying that you will rank them #1. Program A later contacts program B and asks about any commitment letters...your name comes up...this situation is quite conceivable and I won't be surprised if this happens.

First hand experience here...I was being pestered and harassed by some programs asking me where I would rank them. This became annoying. On Feb 3rd, I wrote my current program telling them that they were at the top of my list, in so many words. No more harassment from that day forth. Got an email from one of these PDs who wished me luck and hoped that I matched at my #1 program. This PD trained at my program and has contacts with people within it.

Let's say that I'm right (which I can't guarantee since this is speculation)...the more important question becomes...does this affect your ranking on their rank list? Probably not since according to the match algorithm, it shouldn't matter. But, the PD's at other programs who know that you want to go to a different program and you ranked that program #1 and are likely to match there will concentrate their recruitment efforts on other candidates because to them, you're a lost cause.

 

[Obedeli]

I heard that there is actually an auction for residency applicants. The PDs all get together at a secret location in Mexico and bid on them. The winner gets to rank the applicant first and the losers have to rank the person below 50 on their rank lists. It can be pretty fierce, especially for desirable applicants, such as males in OB/GYN and Irish-Americans in peds (they have noticed that in recent years they just haven't been getting enough peds residents of Irish ancestry). The best thing to do to secure a spot at your top choice is to send a note to the PD saying, "I know about Mexico. Rank me first and I won't tell the feds."

Good stuff! Hilarious!

 

[Obedeli]

PD's would never talk to each other about applicants. They are highly honorable individuals seasoned by decades of the most strict adherance to professional standards. If you think they'd do anything illegal then your level of cynicism probably makes you unfit for medical practice. You don't get to be a program director without demonstrating genuine character and integrity!

This is a joke right? Ahhh the high priesthood of program directorship.

 

[chicamedica]

......................

 

[The White Coat Investor]

PD's would never talk to each other about applicants. They are highly honorable individuals seasoned by decades of the most strict adherance to professional standards. If you think they'd do anything illegal then your level of cynicism probably makes you unfit for medical practice. You don't get to be a program director without demonstrating genuine character and integrity!

ROTFL