Rundown on additional schooling?

[T_Huene]

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Hey all, working on a biology degree now and hoping that vet med is in my future but I’ve got a question.

What is the difference between internships, externships, and residency’s, etc... All after graduation? Before? Are they needed for all disciplines? Just give me a rundown thanks!!


Also what’s the deal with clinical rotations at schools like Lincoln memorial or western? I was told that you have to work for vets of your choosing to get your clinical hours in, is this true?

 

[ajs513]

Hey all, working on a biology degree now and hoping that vet med is in my future but I’ve got a question.

What is the difference between internships, externships, and residency’s, etc... All after graduation? Before? Are they needed for all disciplines? Just give me a rundown thanks!!


Also what’s the deal with clinical rotations at schools like Lincoln memorial or western? I was told that you have to work for vets of your choosing to get your clinical hours in, is this true?

To get in to vet school, you often do internships at vet clinics/hospitals to gain experience to show you what it’s like to be a vet. However, this is different than an internship you do as a veterinarian.

Externships are experiences you get at different places like specialty hospitals, zoos, other schools, etc. that help you learn about different specialties or areas of vet med. It’s also a way to network. So down the road if you want to apply to a residency or internship at one of those places, you know someone.

Internships AFTER vet school are geared toward giving you training in different specialties but are short and don’t get you board certified. Usually they’re a year I believe. You make a small salary (like $30,000) and from what I understand, people do them as a prerequisite for residencies. Many residencies require a one year internship first.

Residency varies based off of the specialty, but it’s a similar thing to human medicine. You train for a few years in a specialty under a specific program and then take your boards to become certified as a diplomat of that specialty.

However, none of the post vet school stuff is necessary to be a GP. Really just to be a specialist. Most vets will never do an internship or a residency.

Someone correct me if any of this info is wrong. Just wanted to give a quick rundown of what each term means.

 

[ajs513]

Oh and for schools like Western, they follow the distributive model. You do two years of education at the school with either didactic learning or PBL (problem-based learning) which involves working in groups to solve cases that teach you about basic sciences. The last two you spend doing clinical rotations at other locations that are partnered with the school. This could be fairly local (for Western, places can be in and around LA) to very far away, like in other countries. To my knowledge, you have a pretty good say as to the general area you end up in. Like they’re not going to send you to the UK for a clinical rotation if you really want to stay in California or close to there.

 

[T_Huene]

To get in to vet school, you often do internships at vet clinics/hospitals to gain experience to show you what it’s like to be a vet. However, this is different than an internship you do as a veterinarian.

Externships are experiences you get at different places like specialty hospitals, zoos, other schools, etc. that help you learn about different specialties or areas of vet med. It’s also a way to network. So down the road if you want to apply to a residency or internship at one of those places, you know someone.

Internships AFTER vet school are geared toward giving you training in different specialties but are short and don’t get you board certified. Usually they’re a year I believe. You make a small salary (like $30,000) and from what I understand, people do them as a prerequisite for residencies. Many residencies require a one year internship first.

Residency varies based off of the specialty, but it’s a similar thing to human medicine. You train for a few years in a specialty under a specific program and then take your boards to become certified as a diplomat of that specialty.

However, none of the post vet school stuff is necessary to be a GP. Really just to be a specialist. Most vets will never do an internship or a residency.

Someone correct me if any of this info is wrong. Just wanted to give a quick rundown of what each term means.

That actually helped so much!! Thank you!

So what are some of the specialties you can do that you have to do residencies for? Additionally, can you do residency’s in general practice exotic or large animal etc. or is it unnecessary unless it’s a very specific discipline?

 

[T_Huene]

Oh and for schools like Western, they follow the distributive model. You do two years of education at the school with either didactic learning or PBL (problem-based learning) which involves working in groups to solve cases that teach you about basic sciences. The last two you spend doing clinical rotations at other locations that are partnered with the school. This could be fairly local (for Western, places can be in and around LA) to very far away, like in other countries. To my knowledge, you have a pretty good say as to the general area you end up in. Like they’re not going to send you to the UK for a clinical rotation if you really want to stay in California or close to there.

That’s very helpful!! So do you know are you responsible for moving every few weeks and finding housing???

 

[ajs513]

That’s very helpful!! So do you know are you responsible for moving every few weeks and finding housing???

What students usually do is they put all their stuff in a storage unit if they can’t send it back home or something and then take what they need to whichever location they’re rotating at. At Western, you do a lot of 2 week rotations third year and I think 8 week rotations fourth year so you’d be moving very frequently. Travel also becomes very expensive. Everyone there does it so it’s obviously doable but it’s more difficult than having a teaching hospital with all of the specialities necessary right at your school.

 

[ajs513]

That actually helped so much!! Thank you!

So what are some of the specialties you can do that you have to do residencies for? Additionally, can you do residency’s in general practice exotic or large animal etc. or is it unnecessary unless it’s a very specific discipline?

You would need a residency to specialize in surgery, internal medicine, emergency and critical care, ophthalmology, dermatology, etc. Vet Med has many of the specialties that human med has but much of it is less specific, like no urology or nephrology or otolaryngology. New specialties come up as the market for them developed, like sports medicine.

You wouldn’t do a residency for the things you mentioned, but externships and electives during school to prepare you for the track of veterinary medicine you want to practice.

 

[SkiOtter]

You wouldn’t do a residency for the things you mentioned, but externships and electives during school to prepare you for the track of veterinary medicine you want to practice.

You CAN do a residency in exotic medicine or large animal medicine if you want to be boarded in that.

 

[ajs513]

You CAN do a residency in exotic medicine or large animal medicine if you want to be boarded in that.

I can’t find any info on exotics residencies. Definitely internships and externships, but if you have any info on exotics residencies I’d be interested in seeing it. And large animal I thought that was just subsets of different specialties, where you’d do an internal medicine/oncology/etc. residency specific to large animals. The ABVP has diplomats in different areas of vet med and talks about that but I don’t know of residencies you’d do to just be a large animal practitioner.

 

[ajs513]

My school had a WEAMS (wildlife and exotic animal medicine and surgery) residency.

Looks like there is an American College of Zoological Medicine that exotics residencies fall under. So if you’d want to specialize in something like that, that’s the route you’d go.

But I think his initial question is whether or not you’d need to do a residency in order to practice on exotics or large animals, sort of like a human doctor would need to do a pediatrics residency to practice on children. And to answer that for him, no you don’t, and most exotics vets don’t do that. Some take the boards for the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners, but that doesn’t require a residency.

 

[SARdoghandler]

The ABVP has diplomats in different areas of vet med and talks about that but I don’t know of residencies you’d do to just be a large animal practitioner.

There is a residency component to being a DABVP in large animal medicine. There is a certain caseload and type you have to handle and manage as well as research and publication I believe which all has to fit within a certain time frame. So typically can only be achieved at specialty type practices - much the same as a traditional residency program. I know someone who is a DABVP in beef practice and is currently trying to set up a residency for that certification in their specialty clinic.

Also you don't need to be an optho specialist to work on eyes or an ortho specialist to work on legs. So you don't "need" a residency to do the vast majority of veterinary medicine truthfully. There are just some areas where specialization through residency is more common

Edit because I just looked it up. The ABVP boards don't just require something like a traditional residency - they require a residency. So yes, residencies in beef cattle, dairy cattle, and general food animal specifically exist if people want to go that route

 

[ajs513]

Edit because I just looked it up. The ABVP boards don't just require something like a traditional residency - they require a residency. So yes, residencies in beef cattle, dairy cattle, and general food animal specifically exist if people want to go that route

ABVP does not require a residency. It requires mastery of your chosen field. If you don’t do a residency, which it seems like many don’t, you need to have worked for 6 years in clinical practice prior to approval. There is a residency track, but it’s not required. There are also certificate programs that a practitioner participates in concurrently with work in private practice. I can’t find any specialties in the ABVP that specifically require a residency instead of just mastery of your field plus experience.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Once you are done with your didactic years in vet school, you enter your clinical training which is in the clinics and out of the classroom. This is typically in your 4th year, though some schools start 3rd year. An externship is a rotation during your clinical year that is outside of your own school’s
Teaching hospital. In traditional schools you have rotations in different departments of your school’s teaching hospitals. Some of those are core rotations that are required of everybody. Most if not all schools have a certain number of weeks of elective rotation time where you get to choose to spend time outside of those core rotations (at which time you could spend that time doing extra of the core rotations if you wanted to as well). If you choose to go outside of your school’s teaching hospitals/services, that rotation is considered an externship. This can be a shelter, any GP, any ER, any specialty at any private specialty clinic/ academic teaching hospital whether it be a specialty that you’ve had a core rotation in, or a specialty your school does not have or require you to do a core rotation in. Typically specialties like exotics, nutrition, dentistry, behavior are not core rotations, even if those services exist at your school’s teaching hospital. For schools with distributive models like Western, you do not have a teaching hospital so all of your clinical rotations have to be arranged elsewhere.

Internships are typically 1 year programs of post-degree training after you graduate with your DVM/VMD/other equivalent. There are two broad categories of internships. The rotating internship and specialty internship. The rotating internship is what most people mean when they reference an “internship.” It’s either done at an academic institution in a teaching hospital, or at a private specialty clinic (buyer beware with those... there are some quality ones out there but there are many garbage ones that only serves to use you as slave ER labor without giving anything in return). The idea is that you get to do essentially another year of clinics, but as a doctor and not a student. You do a lot of ER receiving as the primary doctor with senior doctors to consult, but you rotate around different specialties and spend a couple to a few weeks in each (again, some that are core, some that are elective depending on your interests). Your involvement as a doctor really depends on the service. For some, you’re treated as a real doctor and act as primary doctor on the case under supervision. For others, you’re essentially a student who mostly shadows. The most common reason for doing a rotating internship is that they are required to apply for many if not most residencies if you want to specialize.

Most people apply to residencies during their internship year. Many people match directly into a residency program, but there are many specialties that are so competitive that it’s not realistic to go straight through for a number of people. So that’s typically where a specialty internship comes in. It’s a 1 year internship that most people go into after their 1 year rotating internship, where you spend a year in that one department. You cannot call yourself a specialist after a specialty internship. Some people will do it because they have strong interest in a particular discipline, and want to be able to do more of it as a GP though not at the referral level. But most people do it to Strengthen their application to match into a residency.

Then you have a residency, which is a 3 year program for most. This is when you train as a doctor in a specialty to become a specialist. You are a doctor on The ____ specialty service and you learn by actually taking on case responsibility as the primary doctor. When you finish your residency along with associated requirements for that specialty (many require some sort of publication), you are eligible to sit for the board exam. Once you pass and the board accepts all your credentials, you are finally a specialist.

Typically, specialties require residencies. The exception are the “ABVP” specialties which are a little different. They are awarded through an application process via the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners. It’s not a formal training process where you have to quit your job and take on a full time residency, and a lot of it is building case logs pertaining to a certain discipline to show that you’ve managed more complex cases, and whatever is required of that particular specialty. It’s more something to work towards for regular vets if you’re someone who likes to have something to work towards, while still working your normal job in many of the companion animal ABVP specialties (though I have no idea about any of the large animal/production animal ones what those mean). For something like feline/canine, it’s essentially that you’re a general practitioner who has gone out of their way to distinguish yourself by going through this program. I don’t know anyone who actually calls themselves “a specialist” who has gone through it, though I guess you could. Though feline only practitioners who are ABVP feline boarded may call themselves a “cat specialist.” I’ve never seen anyone call themselves a “dog specialist.” It’s really more additional letters to your name that means something. It says that you’re someone who is committed to practicing high quality medicine and continuing education more than anything else. Unlike other specialists, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have any particular special skills or knowledge. For things like exotics/avian, it tends to mean more. Many vets who see exotics don’t really know what they’re doing with them, and the level of care you get for your pet is super variable similar to dentistry in the gp setting... mostly because it’s just not covered as a core competency in vet school. Not saying that all gps who see exotics are bad. There are some that are amazing at it, but it’s really buyer beware. So being ABVP boarded is one way to show that you have had enough experience and have demonstrated competency in some sort of standardized evaluation. ABVP boarded exotic companion mammal/avian vets are typically considered specialists. For those who want to become competitive for being a zoo vet in big zoos, you need to gun for a true zoo medicine residency. It is probably the most competitive residency to get into, and one that often requires years of free labor and/or connections to get. Because there are so few exotics/zoo residencies, many vet school faculty are ABVP boarded rather than DACZM boarded, especially on the companion exotic animal service.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Oh, when you hear of prevets having done an “internship,” it just means they did some sort of animal experience that just called it an “internship.” Could have been a cool zoo program, could have been just puttering around at some podunk ****ty vet clinic. Doesn’t actually mean anything, and has nothing to do with post-dvm internships.

 

[that redhead]

For ABVP, they do offer actual residencies to prepare you but they aren’t required to sit for boards. I’d imagine the vast majority of people pursuing ABVP are going the experience route.

As for the comment re: most people don’t do internship or residencies...not so. Internships, even for being wanting to do GP, are becoming more and more popular, perhaps because some students don’t feel adequately prepared or confident after fourth year. And specializing is becoming much more popular, too, such that many competitive specialties like surgery “strongly prefer” two internship years before residency.

 

[SkiOtter]

Looks like there is an American College of Zoological Medicine that exotics residencies fall under. So if you’d want to specialize in something like that, that’s the route you’d go.

But I think his initial question is whether or not you’d need to do a residency in order to practice on exotics or large animals, sort of like a human doctor would need to do a pediatrics residency to practice on children. And to answer that for him, no you don’t, and most exotics vets don’t do that. Some take the boards for the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners, but that doesn’t require a residency.

Never said you were required to. Just that you can do a residency, which you were saying didn’t exist.

 

[DVMDream]

You would need a residency to specialize in surgery, internal medicine, emergency and critical care, ophthalmology, dermatology, etc. Vet Med has many of the specialties that human med has but much of it is less specific, like no urology or nephrology or otolaryngology. New specialties come up as the market for them developed, like sports medicine.

You wouldn’t do a residency for the things you mentioned, but externships and electives during school to prepare you for the track of veterinary medicine you want to practice.

Yes, there are residencies, not AVBP, for exotics/zoo as well as large animal specialties. Including equine surgery, equine IM, food animal surgery and IM. These things do exist. Things like ophtho, derm, etc are going to cover both small and large animal. So if you want to specialize in ophthalmology, you are not just getting small animal info it'll cover all species.

 

[Minnerbelle]

For ABVP, they do offer actual residencies to prepare you but they aren’t required to sit for boards. I’d imagine the vast majority of people pursuing ABVP are going the experience route.

As for the comment re: most people don’t do internship or residencies...not so. Internships, even for being wanting to do GP, are becoming more and more popular, perhaps because some students don’t feel adequately prepared or confident after fourth year. And specializing is becoming much more popular, too, such that many competitive specialties like surgery “strongly prefer” two internship years before residency.

Are there residencies for ABVP canine/feline? Or mostly exotics/avian? I’ve never heard of it for canine/feline! I know shelter medicine is a little weird. The resident I know was going for prev med specialization, not ABVP, and virtually every shelter med practitioner I know have 0 interest in ABVP specialization so wasn’t quite sure what the benefit might be there.

As far as internships go, last I heard, it was becoming less popular for those going into GP, but a significant number of people still do. The numbers peaked in 2012 when half of graduates all did internships, and went down after that, but over a third of grads still do internships and a good portion of those people do not pursue residencies.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/internships-tax-new-veterinarians

 

[ajs513]

Yes, there are residencies, not AVBP, for exotics/zoo as well as large animal specialties. Including equine surgery, equine IM, food animal surgery and IM. These things do exist. Things like ophtho, derm, etc are going to cover both small and large animal. So if you want to specialize in ophthalmology, you are not just getting small animal info it'll cover all species.

Yea I know that you can do residencies for large animal specialties and exotic specialties. But as far as being a GP for those animals goes, most vets don’t end up doing them because you really don’t have to. I was just giving basic info to OP about LA/exotics GP training since it sounds like that’s what he was wondering about. But I do appreciate the info. I didn’t know that some of those specialties go through all of the species.

 

[DVMDream]

Yea I know that you can do residencies for large animal specialties and exotic specialties. But as far as being a GP for those animals goes, most vets don’t end up doing them because you really don’t have to. I was just giving basic info to OP about LA/exotics GP training since it sounds like that’s what he was wondering about. But I do appreciate the info. I didn’t know that some of those specialties go through all of the species.

I mean, he is asking what externships, internships and residencies are so I don't see how that is asking what he needs for just GP training...

But you did state that there are no large animal specialties other than AVBP, which is very not true.

 

[ajs513]

I mean, he is asking what externships, internships and residencies are so I don't see how that is asking what he needs for just GP training...

But you did state that there are no large animal specialties other than AVBP, which is very not true.

He literally asked if you would do a residency for large animal/exotic general practice, and I said you wouldn’t. Not that large animal or exotic residencies don’t exist at all. And that’s true, you typically wouldn’t do a residency to be an LA/exotics GP. And I NEVER said residencies don’t exist. Just that I thought that you’d go a certain route for certain things but if I’m lacking info I’m open to new information. So I’d appreciate if you back off with the confrontation. Kthx.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

 

[Minnerbelle]

So I’d appreciate if you back off with the confrontation. Kthx.

Well... when you answer a general inquiry thread with a ton of info you don’t know anything about (just things you’ve heard of and of course you know it all because all pennwe’s do even if you haven’t started yet ) ... and the rest of the thread is everyone coming in to correct info you’ve put out or didn’t explain well... you can’t exactly expect everyone to give you a standing ovation. Maybe stick with advising info you actually have knowledge about?

 

[ajs513]

Well... when you answer a general inquiry thread with a ton of info you don’t know anything about (just things you’ve heard of and of course you know it all because all pennwe’s do even if you haven’t started yet ) ... and the rest of the thread is everyone coming in to correct info you’ve put out or didn’t explain well... you can’t exactly expect everyone to give you a standing ovation. Maybe stick with advising info you actually have knowledge about?

I don’t know how I did any of that. I gave some pretty basic info to answer his question at a basic level using info I knew about, invited others to expand upon it, and basically left it at that. There’s no need for the attacks or the disparaging. Not only is it extremely unprofessional, but it’s not relevant to the discussion at all. People were “correcting” things I never even said, like saying there are large animal residencies, or that the ABVP allows for you to gain certification through residency. That’s not something that was actually correcting anything I said, but expanding upon things that I mentioned and left pretty open-ended. He asked if you would do a residency for LA/exotic GP, or if it’s unnecessary. I said you wouldn’t, which is by and large true. The majority of GP’s won’t do a residency in their field, even if they do exotic or large animal medicine. I never said you couldn’t or that they don’t exist. That info was just offered up by Ski. But it was done in a way that was aimed at me to correct something that I never said. Read my first comments in this thread. How was I saying anything incorrect? I was asking questions for my own knowledge as well to better inform myself.

You’re all creating an environment where people don’t feel comfortable asking questions or offering advice because you end up shooting down anyone who doesn’t know 100% of the answer. And when they ask questions to better inform themselves, they’re shot down further and made to feel stupid or unimportant or invalid. You should be ashamed that this is how you treat people for wanting to better educate themselves.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don’t know how I did any of that.

Yes, I can see that...

Look, you can ask questions and that’s totally fine. And obviously feel free to answer questions you actually know how to answer. But when you start spewing out random hearsay that you have no real knowledge of and then go “well someone can chime in if I’m wrong” then it’s just really not that helpful. Blind leading the blind. Ain’t no one got time to break down all the stuff you say that’s questionable (either by omission or plain wrong). It just gets hard for people to wade through when they’re actually searching for answers.

Like, I don’t comment on parenting forums about anything other than questions I have, because even though I’ve read a bunch of crap and do know about this and that, as someone who hasn’t had lived experiences as a mother, I’m in no place to give parenting or breastfeeding advice. Even if I think I may know the answer, so do gazillion other people who can give a more nuanced answer that is going to be much more helpful. No one cares that I’ve heard good thing about X breast pump and why, if I’ve never used it.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Just in regards to the ABVP feline residencies: although the residency track is definitely not a common one there are currently a few feline residencies in North America. There is 1 in Canada and 2 in the US.

Source: My friend who is hoping to go the residency route to ABVP-Feline and has been looking into the options pretty extensively.

 

[DVMDream]

He literally asked if you would do a residency for large animal/exotic general practice, and I said you wouldn’t. Not that large animal or exotic residencies don’t exist at all. And that’s true, you typically wouldn’t do a residency to be an LA/exotics GP. And I NEVER said residencies don’t exist. Just that I thought that you’d go a certain route for certain things but if I’m lacking info I’m open to new information. So I’d appreciate if you back off with the confrontation. Kthx.

I think you need to re-evaluate what you said because I wasn't the only one to take away from your post that there are no exotics or large animal residencies.

You point blank asked people to correct you of you are wrong in your first post then yell at them and call them "confrontational" when they do..... 🤔 🤔 🤔

I mean don't ask to be corrected and admit you don't really know what you're talking about if you don't want to actually be corrected...

 

[DVMDream]

Ok run down....

1. You do undergrad, get pre-reqs, apply for vet school.
During this time you try to gain experience with vets and animals and maybe research. These are not internships, sure, some people may say they did an "internship" at a zoo or something else. It isn't the same as what is done after vet school. Most people gain this experience by working for a vet, volunteering or shadowing vets in whatever capacity they can find. Some get this experience through research.

2. You got to vet school.

3. You pass NAVLE and graduate from vet school.

After you graduate from vet school you can work on any species just about anywhere as a general practitioner. Except zoos. You won't be hired. You can try, but don't. You won't be hired. You want to work in a zoo or on zoo animals you will need a residency. Period. You could work with pet exotics provided the clinic you end up at has the appropriate equipment and supplies or will get them for you.

If you decide you don't want to be a general practitioner or want more experience before jumping into the deep end of being a veterinarian, you will then do an internship. An internship is a year long that is basically a more intense version of the 4th year of vet school. You will rotate through the service again (IM, surgery, Emergency, ECC, ophtho, cardio, derm, etc, etc). During this time, or maybe you will already know, you can decide if you want to jump into general practice after or if you want to specialize.

If you elect to specialize you then apply for a residency. A residency is typically three years in length involving only the desired "thing" you want to do. Such as small animal internal medicine. Or ophthalmology. Or radiology. Or dermatology. Or oncology. Etc. etc. If you are lucky, you get into a residency immediately after that one year internship, if you are not, you could be on the path of another rotating internship or a specialty internship. This often happens for those that want to pursue surgery. You can end up doing anywhere from 1-whatever specialty internships, however long it takes until a residency elects you or you decide to move on.

ABVP as some have mentioned is basically a certificate program. It isn't a residency (technically) though it appears you can go through what is kind of a residency now for it (didn't used to be that way). It technically isn't even a specialty. It is literally saying "yup this general practitioner has practiced for at least x years, has submitted y papers and has passed this one exam". You can NOT call yourself a specialist with this at least not in the sense of "I am a small animal internal medicine specialist". You can only say you are certified by ABVP. It literally doesn't increase your salary. Clients have no ****ing clue what it is or what it means, kind of like AAHA accreditation. Everyone strives for AAHA (and they should) but clients have no ****ing clue what that actually means. So, ABVP is just something "extra" you can do while in general practice if you are so inclined and you have the time and resources to accomplish it. It has no benefits to you other than saying you did the thing and you might get some magazines and decreased cost on CE.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Just in regards to the ABVP feline residencies: although the residency track is definitely not a common one there are currently a few feline residencies in North America. There is 1 in Canada and 2 in the US.

Source: My friend who is hoping to go the residency route to ABVP-Feline and has been looking into the options pretty extensively.

Just in regards to the ABVP feline residencies: although the residency track is definitely not a common one there are currently a few feline residencies in North America. There is 1 in Canada and 2 in the US.

Source: My friend who is hoping to go the residency route to ABVP-Feline and has been looking into the options pretty extensively.

That’s so interesting. What’s her motivation for going through the residency track? Is it that she’s early in her career and just wants to expedite it?

 

[ajs513]

I think you need to re-evaluate what you said because I wasn't the only one to take away from your post that there are no exotics or large animal residencies.

You point blank asked people to correct you of you are wrong in your first post then yell at them and call them "confrontational" when they do..... 🤔 🤔 🤔

I mean don't ask to be corrected and admit you don't really know what you're talking about if you don't want to actually be corrected...

Because what I said didn’t need correction. I answered everything factually in my first comment. Then the OP asked if you need a residency for LA/Exotics GP. I answered that factually as well. People came in with more info that added to that, but none of it corrected anything. Read what I actually said, and what OP actually said. None of what I said was wrong or misleading. Then you came in and blatantly ignored what I said, saying that something I never said was “very not true.” Point to where I said there were no LA or exotic specialties other than ABVP. I specifically talked about how that I didn’t know if any GP residencies but if someone did, please let me know so I can inform myself. I specifically said that there WERE LA/exotic residencies. And you framed your comment in a “hey idiot, you’re wrong” type of way, which was confrontational.

 

[ajs513]

I’m really not trying to belabor the point any longer, but I feel like no one has actually read OP’s comments and my comments other than skimming them, because all the points being brought up are things I clearly never said or insinuated, and specifically said otherwise.

 

[DVMDream]

I’m really not trying to belabor the point any longer, but I feel like no one has actually read OP’s comments and my comments other than skimming them, because all the points being brought up are things I clearly never said or insinuated, and specifically said otherwise.

Again, if multiple people took away the same message from your posts maybe it is in the way you worded those posts and not that everyone else isn't paying attention. Don't you think? It isn't like we're a group of dumb dumbs, yet multiple people took away the same message from your posts.

 

[ajs513]

Again, if multiple people took away the same message from your posts maybe it is in the way you worded those posts and not that everyone else isn't paying attention. Don't you think? It isn't like we're a group of dumb dumbs, yet multiple people took away the same message from your posts.

That’s why it’s frustrating for me. No one can show me where I said any of this. And I specifically showed where OP DID ask for info on what I said. For example, you said it was irrelevant that I gave info on being a GP, and then I showed you where OP asked for that info. So in that case you were mistaken but you didn’t admit that, and instead kept driving home that I’m still somehow wrong. I keep rereading what i said and what OP said, and I really can’t find anything that can be misunderstood or taken a different way.

 

[DVMDream]

That’s why it’s frustrating for me. No one can show me where I said any of this. And I specifically showed where OP DID ask for info on what I said. For example, you said it was irrelevant that I gave info on being a GP, and then I showed you where OP asked for that info. So in that case you were mistaken but you didn’t admit that, and instead kept driving home that I’m still somehow wrong. I keep rereading what i said and what OP said, and I really can’t find anything that can be misunderstood or taken a different way.

Where did you show me the OP asked specifically for GP info only?

In every post he has asked to expand upon internships/residencies and what they are specifically for. In that aspect, yes, I would also touch upon the GP route where no internship/residency is needed. But no where did he ask ONLY for GP information. Nor did you ever point that out to me.

But this is stupid at this point.

Multiple people read the way your post was written the same AND your initial post literally said "Someone correct me if any of this info is wrong."
So then we tried to gently correct certain things you said and you lost your mind over it.

I don't know what else to say. There is nothing else to say other than don't admit you have limited knowledge about something, post inaccurate information (not everything was inaccurate but a number of it was), ask for correction/clarification if you are wrong, then explode at those clarifying things.

 

[deleted676737]

I think this is where the confusion happened and this is what DVMD, Ski, and Minner are taking issue with.

The OP thanked you for your initial post and then asked this:

Additionally, can you do residency’s in general practice exotic or large animal etc. or is it unnecessary unless it’s a very specific discipline?

To which you replied:

You wouldn’t do a residency for the things you mentioned, but externships and electives during school to prepare you for the track of veterinary medicine you want to practice.

And then Ski and DVMD both corrected you and expanded on this point:

You CAN do a residency in exotic medicine or large animal medicine if you want to be boarded in that.

Yes, there are residencies, not AVBP, for exotics/zoo as well as large animal specialties. Including equine surgery, equine IM, food animal surgery and IM. These things do exist. Things like ophtho, derm, etc are going to cover both small and large animal. So if you want to specialize in ophthalmology, you are not just getting small animal info it'll cover all species.

And then you started getting, admittedly, a bit defensive when others started correcting you even when you asked for it.

I don’t think it’s a big deal, especially since it’s been clarified in later posts. Ajs genuinely just may not have known that residencies in exotics and large animal exist outside of ABVP or he may have known but miscommunicated it. It happens sometimes, but that multiple people read it this way puts the onus on the writer of the post and should serve as indication that either the initial information given was incorrect or was worded poorly. Not a slight against anyone in this thread, but that’s just how this all came across to me, as a bystander.

ETA that I do think the comment about PennWes was maybe a bit over-the-top and unnecessary.

 

[DVMDream]

And, also "Exotic GP" is kind of misleading.

Sure you can see pet exotics in general practice, but it is highly limited. Very, very limited.

That should have been and needs to be explained further than "yeah you can do exotics GP without residency." While true, it is going to lead people astray. What type of exotics is the OP talking about? Pets? Guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, rabbits? Or lions, tigers and bears?

Because if you just want to work on pet exotics you can do so in the GP setting, but you will be limited in what you can do based upon what you have available to you.

If you are talking about lions, tigers and bears.... you going to need a residency.

 

[DVMDream]

ETA that I do think the comment about PennWes was a bit over-the-top and unnecessary.

I thought it was funny. The term does exist for a reason.

 

[that redhead]

Ok run down....

1. You do undergrad, get pre-reqs, apply for vet school.
During this time you try to gain experience with vets and animals and maybe research. These are not internships, sure, some people may say they did an "internship" at a zoo or something else. It isn't the same as what is done after vet school. Most people gain this experience by working for a vet, volunteering or shadowing vets in whatever capacity they can find. Some get this experience through research.

2. You got to vet school.

3. You pass NAVLE and graduate from vet school.

After you graduate from vet school you can work on any species just about anywhere as a general practitioner. Except zoos. You won't be hired. You can try, but don't. You won't be hired. You want to work in a zoo or on zoo animals you will need a residency. Period. You could work with pet exotics provided the clinic you end up at has the appropriate equipment and supplies or will get them for you.

If you decide you don't want to be a general practitioner or want more experience before jumping into the deep end of being a veterinarian, you will then do an internship. An internship is a year long that is basically a more intense version of the 4th year of vet school. You will rotate through the service again (IM, surgery, Emergency, ECC, ophtho, cardio, derm, etc, etc). During this time, or maybe you will already know, you can decide if you want to jump into general practice after or if you want to specialize.

If you elect to specialize you then apply for a residency. A residency is typically three years in length involving only the desired "thing" you want to do. Such as small animal internal medicine. Or ophthalmology. Or radiology. Or dermatology. Or oncology. Etc. etc. If you are lucky, you get into a residency immediately after that one year internship, if you are not, you could be on the path of another rotating internship or a specialty internship. This often happens for those that want to pursue surgery. You can end up doing anywhere from 1-whatever specialty internships, however long it takes until a residency elects you or you decide to move on.

ABVP as some have mentioned is basically a certificate program. It isn't a residency (technically) though it appears you can go through what is kind of a residency now for it (didn't used to be that way). It technically isn't even a specialty. It is literally saying "yup this general practitioner has practiced for at least x years, has submitted y papers and has passed this one exam". You can NOT call yourself a specialist with this at least not in the sense of "I am a small animal internal medicine specialist". You can only say you are certified by ABVP. It literally doesn't increase your salary. Clients have no ****ing clue what it is or what it means, kind of like AAHA accreditation. Everyone strives for AAHA (and they should) but clients have no ****ing clue what that actually means. So, ABVP is just something "extra" you can do while in general practice if you are so inclined and you have the time and resources to accomplish it. It has no benefits to you other than saying you did the thing and you might get some magazines and decreased cost on CE.

I’m actually considering ABVP mostly to give myself something to work towards. Of course they say that it will make you a more sought after clinician versus not certified but I agree that’s a bit of a stretch, especially when there are ACVIM docs to see instead. However, I think for exotics it IS more worth it because there isn’t an actual “companion exotics” specialty at this point. The required (er, “suggested”) caseload is more than your typical GP exotics dabbler would see and the case report requirements are such that you’d need to really be comfortable working them up more than your typical GP would be comfortable with (or your typical GP exotics client would agree to). Just my two cents 🙂

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

That’s so interesting. What’s her motivation for going through the residency track? Is it that she’s early in her career and just wants to expedite it?

We are still in school currently, so I think that is a major reason why she is considering the residency vs practice route. It is the faster way to certification, and she likes the amount of mentorship she would get from the practices currently hosting the residencies. For example, one of the doctors who runs one of the residencies has an email list-serve for vet students that contact him who are interested in cats, and gives lots of education and information through that. She likes the idea of having specific training under someone that already has their ABVP certification and is incredibly dedicated to keeping up with medical advances.

Obviously you could get that in a private practice if you find the right fit, but I would imagine the residencies are more of a guarantee of getting that fit since there is so few of them and they are being run for the love of feline med. My friend is also considering the practice route, and isn't set in stone one way or the other. I suspect she would want to do an internship after vet school even if she decided to do the practice route, just knowing her and her personality.

 

[DVMDream]

I’m actually considering ABVP mostly to give myself something to work towards. Of course they say that it will make you a more sought after clinician versus not certified but I agree that’s a bit of a stretch, especially when there are ACVIM docs to see instead. However, I think for exotics it IS more worth it because there isn’t an actual “companion exotics” specialty at this point. The required (er, “suggested”) caseload is more than your typical GP exotics dabbler would see and the case report requirements are such that you’d need to really be comfortable working them up more than your typical GP would be comfortable with (or your typical GP exotics client would agree to). Just my two cents 🙂

I totally agree on the exotics front. It is really the only way to show you've got decent experience and expertise in exotic companion animals.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think this is where the confusion happened and this is what DVMD, Ski, and Minner are taking issue with.


ETA that I do think the comment about PennWes was maybe a bit over-the-top and unnecessary.

Oh dude, I stopped reading that kid’s response to the OP after the first post where s/he did a poor job of defining the terms the OP asked for. Whatever squabbles were going on about large animal specialists and residencies and such have nothing to do with my comments. I wouldn’t have said anything (which is why I didn’t in my initial post), but the temper tantrum that ensued compelled me to comment.

And lol I did put a cute little emoji after the pennwe comment as I honestly have no hard feelings against penn grads, but didn’t work with my phone. I actually know a good number of them and like them. But how could I stop myself when I run into those that fit that stereotype so perfectly!? Perhaps not for those with thin skin, but I won’t be apologizing for it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I’m actually considering ABVP mostly to give myself something to work towards. Of course they say that it will make you a more sought after clinician versus not certified but I agree that’s a bit of a stretch, especially when there are ACVIM docs to see instead. However, I think for exotics it IS more worth it because there isn’t an actual “companion exotics” specialty at this point. The required (er, “suggested”) caseload is more than your typical GP exotics dabbler would see and the case report requirements are such that you’d need to really be comfortable working them up more than your typical GP would be comfortable with (or your typical GP exotics client would agree to). Just my two cents 🙂

Good for you, and I totes agree with you about exotics. I personally seek out AVBP diplomates for avian care. Exotics care is so beyond sketchy that there are so few people I trust. I can’t say I would ever do the same for dog/cat though. If I want to refer a complicated dog/cat patient, or I want help with my own pet, it’s going to be to an ACVIM diplomate or surgeon. And I say that as someone who is considering ABVP specialization. It would be more for my own growth than anything else. Not so much because I feel patients should be referred to me for becoming an ABVP diplomate.

 

[thatsallfolks97]

Granted I am biased, but I also agree that becoming an ABVP diplomat for exotics holds more importance to both veterinarians in the field and to clients seeking out more advanced medicine for their exotic pets. It is not just a certification program. ABVP residencies for exotic animals holds the candidate to a higher standard of veterinary care and their case load is HUGE compared to the average GP that will treat some exotics. They are seeing only exotic animals, all day every day. They become very proficient in what they do and they do it well. It is a highly specialized area of veterinary medicine that is extremely competitive. For example, there are less than 20 ABVP avian residency programs in North America. In the last two VIRMP match cycles, the applicant match rate for exotic/zoo residencies (which included both ABVP and ACZM residencies) has been less than 10%. ACZM residencies are the most difficult and competitive and if you want to do zoo medicine, this is your only option. But I would say that ABVP also holds high esteem in the exotics community. Any candidate that passes their ABVP board exam either in avian, exotic companion mammal, or reptile/amphibian medicine , is given the title of specialist.

I'll also add that just because a vet treats exotics animals and they are not a specialist or they are not in a residency program, does not mean that they are not good at what they do. There are many excellent exotic animal veterinarians that, for many reasons, have not chosen to add more letters to their name and that is perfectly ok.

 

[that redhead]

Granted I am biased, but I also agree that becoming an ABVP diplomat for exotics holds more importance to both veterinarians in the field and to clients seeking out more advanced medicine for their exotic pets. It is not just a certification program. ABVP residencies for exotic animals holds the candidate to a higher standard of veterinary care and their case load is HUGE compared to the average GP that will treat some exotics. They are seeing only exotic animals, all day every day. They become very proficient in what they do and they do it well. It is a highly specialized area of veterinary medicine that is extremely competitive. For example, there are less than 20 ABVP avian residency programs in North America. In the last two VIRMP match cycles, the applicant match rate for exotic/zoo residencies (which included both ABVP and ACZM residencies) has been less than 10%. ACZM residencies are the most difficult and competitive and if you want to do zoo medicine, this is your only option. But I would say that ABVP also holds high esteem in the exotics community. Any candidate that passes their ABVP board exam either in avian, exotic companion mammal, or reptile/amphibian medicine , is given the title of specialist.

I'll also add that just because a vet treats exotics animals and they are not a specialist or they are not in a residency program, does not mean that they are not good at what they do. There are many excellent exotic animal veterinarians that, for many reasons, have not chosen to add more letters to their name and that is perfectly ok.

I didn’t mean to suggest that non-ABVP exotics vets can’t be good at what they do; I just know there are many vets out there who “see” exotics without much of a real understanding of how to treat them, the detailed husbandry involved, etc. whereas I actively read and attend CE regularly (not to mention had all of my elective rotations in exotics) so that I can not only provide the best possible care but the best client education. I absolutely have cases I refer, too, when people are willing to pursue further work up, but most people aren’t at that level yet for their exotic pets.

 

[thatsallfolks97]

No worries. I know you didn’t suggest that at all. My statement was just about those who see exotics in general. It was not directed at anyone in particular.
I agree there are some vets who dabble with exotics without doing the extra research, CE, etc. and it has the potential to do more harm than good. Luckily, many exotic vets are like you and put in the extra work to make sure they are practicing the best medicine that they can.

Sounds like you are doing all of the good things for your exotic patients. Keep on being awesome!

 

[Minnerbelle]

I didn’t mean to suggest that non-ABVP exotics vets can’t be good at what they do; I just know there are many vets out there who “see” exotics without much of a real understanding of how to treat them, the detailed husbandry involved, etc. whereas I actively read and attend CE regularly (not to mention had all of my elective rotations in exotics) so that I can not only provide the best possible care but the best client education. I absolutely have cases I refer, too, when people are willing to pursue further work up, but most people aren’t at that level yet for their exotic pets.

Agreed. It’s similar to dentistry. So many GPs do dentistry (it’s almost expected of you), probably a higher percentage than those who “see exotics,” yet very few have any formal training in dentistry. There are some who do it well, and perhaps had a mentor in their practice who did it well and taught them well. But majority of people who are learning it that way are learning it from someone who isn’t doing it right. Others try to do the best of their ability and try to learn as much as they can on their own, and slowly work towards getting better. And there are a number of practitioners who are stubborn and can’t even admit that they don’t know much about dentistry, and think they are doing a good job even though they are doing a poor job, despite the fact that they have had 0 education in dentistry and have no clue what should go into a complete dental procedure. Many people kinda shrug and go, “well I mean... this is just what everyone does. I wish I could go to a good dental CE but it’s so expensive. I hate dentals.” And it’s true! It’s ****ing expensive and not everyone can afford to do multiple dental wetlabs, each running $1700-2400. But it can also be hard to find a good dentistry mentor in practice.

I’m not ever planning on becoming a dentist because I’m not interested in endodontics and I really like the variety of medical/surgical cases I see as a GP, but dentistry is something I’m super passionate about. For majority of dental work that you would handle in the GP setting, you don’t need to be a specialist. But it’s probably the hardest skill with the largest knowledge/skill base that I need to have ready for each anesthetize procedure. It’s hard because unlike most other things in gp, you literally have a few hours of time max to evaluate, diagnose, and treat a ton of different things and know how to do all of that without stopping. In order to be the best that I can be, I’ve done over 100 hrs of CE, spent time during vet school to learn, and do a **** ton of procedures and read up on multiple dental boards on the regular. I’m at the point where I can say that I’m pretty good at it. Still a work in progress, but compared to a vast majority of practitioners out there, I do a fab job. So I get referrals from other veterinarians, and do dentals for other vets who are not in dog/cat practice often. Unfortunately there is no way for a lay person to discern what their vets are doing when they say “I’m going to do a dental on your pet.” And I charge less than most practices in the area, so most of my clients don’t even realize the awesome deal they’re getting. Once you’re at that point where you’ve gone above and beyond your peers and have put in that much training, it would be nice to have that validated through a formal evaluation process.

What I like about the ABVP exotics/avian certification is that it truly differentiates a group of practitioners who you can be comfortable are competent at providing exotics services, and you don’t need to “know” the one person in your area who does a good job within the sea of people who don’t. As someone who doesn’t do exotics, and don’t know many practices that do, I just tell people of the few practices in the area that “see exotics,” as in will schedule them. But I have no idea what that means. My own birds will see the ACZM/ABVP boarded specialist at the teaching hospital for everything for that reason. I don’t think I know enough to even judge how competent a particular avian vet is even as a vet myself.

I wish there was an established ABVP specialty for gp dentistry, which there currently isn’t. So I’ve signed up to be a guinea pig for a new certification program that is supposed to do that, which involves both written exam and a full day practical, but I’m not sure it will take off. I hope it does!

 

[DVMDream]

Yes, I will clarify and probably should have in my initial post about ABVP that for exotics, it really does count. It is the only way to show that you know your crap when dealing with exotics. I refer anyone that calls about exotics to the nearest exotic hospital with ABVP boarded vets. I do not see exotics as I know I do not know what I am doing and I don't see them often enough.

As for doing exotics in GP, it can be done and it can be done decently but it is very dependent on the clinic you end up at. Many clinics don't want to spend the money on medications and equipment for exotic patients unless they can be shown those things will bring in money. It is like throwing money down the drain to get a medication specific to reptiles and then you only see 2-3 reptiles in a month (and that is a large number more likely you'll see 1 in 3 months time). The medication then expires and you've just wasted however much you spent on that product. So if you end up in a GP clinic that already dabbles in exotics some, you might have a better chance of being set up for success with seeing these patients. It can be very difficult to get an exotic client base up and going and then convince a clinic that you need specific tools/medications for these patients, because you do.

So in regards to exotics, ABVP really does mean something and often those vets are working at exotic only hospitals. You know they are going to have the knowledge, experience and tools necessary to see those patients. Whereas, the local GP whose vet will "see exotics" may not have as much available for the care of these patients.

 

[Minnerbelle]

As for doing exotics in GP, it can be done and it can be done decently but it is very dependent on the clinic you end up at. Many clinics don't want to spend the money on medications and equipment for exotic patients unless they can be shown those things will bring in money. It is like throwing money down the drain to get a medication specific to reptiles and then you only see 2-3 reptiles in a month (and that is a large number more likely you'll see 1 in 3 months time). The medication then expires and you've just wasted however much you spent on that product. So if you end up in a GP clinic that already dabbles in exotics some, you might have a better chance of being set up for success with seeing these patients. It can be very difficult to get an exotic client base up and going and then convince a clinic that you need specific tools/medications for these patients, because you do.

As the vet in my clinic who sees 50% of the caseload who does not do any exotics, I’d prefer that our next hire not see them either unless they are super serious about it enough that it’s worth investing in meds/equipment for. But that person would be 100% responsible for their exotics cases. They either need to be on call for their own patients, or have arrangements/expectations with their exotics clients that they are SOL on days they are not there. The only service I provide for exotics are nonwitnessed euthanasias. So logistically, it’s kind of hard to start up unless the clinic is already set up for it, especially for a new grad who has interest in exotics since that first year is tough even with just dogs/cats. I’d probably veto actually investing in equipment until they’ve been around for a good 6mos to a year and have gotten the hang of practice and has a good sense of where they’re going with their interest in exotics. Even if we’re talking just dogs/cats, logistics of ordering/stocking for routine care is something that most new grads would have a hard time grasping initially. That initial growth phase for starting an exotics service is also tough because exotics appts are typically longer, and for a busy dog/cat practice that makes high revenue with 20-30min appts, you are likely to lose money when you see the occasional reptile, hamster, etc... with clients who aren’t there actually seeking exotics expertise and aren’t willing to spend on their pocket pets. They just came in because their rat developed a huge lump and “wanted someone to look at it” and they’re already pissed off that the exotics exam fee is higher than that for their dog. They expect it to be like $20 since it only cost like $10 to buy the gerbil... It can become a vibrant profit center once you start attracting the serious exotics clientele who want quality care for their pets. But it takes a while to get there, esp if you work in a multi doctor practice where you’re the only one who sees exotics. I think these types of things contribute big time to exotics dabblers not being able to do a good job. It’s not just a lack of knowledge. There’s a pretty high barrier to entry unless you start at a clinic that is exotics heavy to begin with.

 

[DVMDream]

As the vet in my clinic who sees 50% of the caseload who does not do any exotics, I’d prefer that our next hire not see them either unless they are super serious about it enough that it’s worth investing in meds/equipment for. But that person would be 100% responsible for their exotics cases. They either need to be on call for their own patients, or have arrangements/expectations with their exotics clients that they are SOL on days they are not there. The only service I provide for exotics are nonwitnessed euthanasias. So logistically, it’s kind of hard to start up unless the clinic is already set up for it, especially for a new grad who has interest in exotics since that first year is tough even with just dogs/cats. I’d probably veto actually investing in equipment until they’ve been around for a good 6mos to a year and have gotten the hang of practice and has a good sense of where they’re going with their interest in exotics. Even if we’re talking just dogs/cats, logistics of ordering/stocking for routine care is something that most new grads would have a hard time grasping initially. That initial growth phase for starting an exotics service is also tough because exotics appts are typically longer, and for a busy dog/cat practice that makes high revenue with 20-30min appts, you are likely to lose money when you see the occasional reptile, hamster, etc... with clients who aren’t there actually seeking exotics expertise and aren’t willing to spend on their pocket pets. They just came in because their rat developed a huge lump and “wanted someone to look at it” and they’re already pissed off that the exotics exam fee is higher than that for their dog. They expect it to be like $20 since it only cost like $10 to buy the gerbil... It can become a vibrant profit center once you start attracting the serious exotics clientele who want quality care for their pets. But it takes a while to get there, esp if you work in a multi doctor practice where you’re the only one who sees exotics. I think these types of things contribute big time to exotics dabblers not being able to do a good job. It’s not just a lack of knowledge. There’s a pretty high barrier to entry unless you start at a clinic that is exotics heavy to begin with.

Yup. All of this.

At a clinic I was an associate at I really wanted to learn ultrasound and have access to one. I was told they would consider it but I had to format what my interests were, what I would do to become proficient in it, what I would use it for, how we would charge for it and how we could logistically pay off the cost of that piece of equipment.

So the answer was never "no" but more "make this practical and explain how we can pay off the equipment and eventually make profit from it."

It is just so difficult to do that for exotics because, like you said, it takes a very long time to build up that exotics client base that will actually spend money on their exotic pet. In the interim, you are very limited with what you can do for those exotics, thus making it harder to build up that client base because you may have to refer out initially for more complicated things. So then those serious clients end up going back to the referral facility rather than back to you. It is just not easy by any means. Plus the appointments do take longer. And if you are the only one seeing these patients, the other associates may get frustrated if those clients are calling in because they quite literally have no idea what to do or what is normal. So then the clients get trapped without having guidance. And no one can be on-call/work every single day, so if you want to see exotics as well as be a primary cat/dog GP, the best bet is a clinic that already dabbles in exotics some. If you want to see only exotics, ABVP boards and working in an exotics only practice is the way to go.

 

[that redhead]

@Minnerbelle I'm also super passionate about dental work. Our clinic does at least 5 COHATs a day every day and are often booked out way in advance; we also offer a damn good deal year-round (the downside being that people wanting a cheap dental find our practice and bring their rotted mouthed Yorkie in and are shocked when the estimate is far higher than a straight-forward dental. Ugh.) But we're all required to do a really good weekend-long CE and get lots of practice and I think we're damn good. I thought going in that I wasn't going to enjoy it but I actually love it. It's crazy how badly other vets do them without people even knowing there's a difference 🙁 I'd be interested in the pilot program if they're still looking for people 🙂