Sabbath-observant Residencies

[EctopicFetus]

I worked with an orthodox jew who was a trauma attending. For his getting Friday ngihts and saturdays off he would take call starting on Sat after sunset and then sunday.

He also told me he did something similar as a resident.

I mean WTF if we all get off for Xmas, new years (a christian celebration), and some people get good friday etc off. Some muslims get some weird ass breaks for the MONTH of ramadan.

In the end find what fits you but in the end why should some religions carry more clout than others. If you are in jail based on your religion you get different "days off". And folks residency is like jail..

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[EctopicFetus]

I worked with an orthodox jew who was a trauma attending. For his getting Friday ngihts and saturdays off he would take call starting on Sat after sunset and then sunday.

He also told me he did something similar as a resident.

I mean WTF if we all get off for Xmas, new years (a christian celebration), and some people get good friday etc off. Some muslims get some weird ass breaks for the MONTH of ramadan.

In the end find what fits you but in the end why should some religions carry more clout than others. If you are in jail based on your religion you get different "days off". And folks residency is like jail..

 

[Apollyon]

new years (a christian celebration)

New Year's Eve/Day in the United States is even more secular than Christmas. Even though for Catholics January 1 is the "World Day of Prayer for Peace", I still don't know many that go to church on January 1, unless it's a Sunday.

Moreover, "New Year's" dates to Roman times, in that Janus (where the month "January" comes from) was depicted as a two-faced god, one looking forward, and the other looking backward towards the past year. Even more so, Janus (which was actually Ianus) got HIS name from the Latin "ianua", meaning "door", as the new year is the "door" to the future.

 

[gryffindor]

New Year's Eve/Day in the United States is even more secular than Christmas. Even though for Catholics January 1 is the "World Day of Prayer for Peace", I still don't know many that go to church on January 1, unless it's a Sunday.

Moreover, "New Year's" dates to Roman times, in that Janus (where the month "January" comes from) was depicted as a two-faced god, one looking forward, and the other looking backward towards the past year. Even more so, Janus (which was actually Ianus) got HIS name from the Latin "ianua", meaning "door", as the new year is the "door" to the future.

What happens when the Christian (Christmas, Good Friday) and secular (New Year's) holidays fall on Fridays? This happened a few years ago in my residency and caused some headaches and strife trying to accomodate everyone.

 

[kate_g]

Sorry, but your friend is wrong. The only people commanded to observe the Sabbath and make it holy, according to the Jewish religion, are Jews. If other people decide to do so, that is their perogative and decision but it has nothing to do with Jewish law. Our law doesnt really place obligations on the rest of the world.

I think the point is not that Jewish law requires non-Jews to observe the Sabbath (how could it?). It's that a Jew who is observing the Sabbath cannot ask anyone else (even a non-Jew) to do work for them.

I did a summer research program in college and one of the other women in the program was an orthodox Jew. Brought her own kosher cookware and everything. At the beginning of the summer she explained to everyone living in the dorm what her religious observances were, and mentioned that she was not allowed to turn on the lights during the Sabbath. She said she was also not allowed to ask us to turn on the lights for her, so she sort of made a vague statement like "if at any point you see I'm sitting in the lounge reading, and it's getting really dark, and you happen to turn on the lights, I'm sure I would be very appreciative."

So, *asking* your Gentile co-resident to take call for you on Saturday is presumably a no-no. But if your Gentile co-resident happens to volunteer to take call for you, or if the schedule is set up that way in advance, you do not have to actively *prevent* them from working on the Sabbath in your stead.

 

[Apollyon]

Our law doesn't really place obligations on the rest of the world.

"I can't work the Sabbath."

Right there, that's an obligation placed on the rest of the world to pick up the slack.

As this thread has abundantly shown, observing the Sabbath as a resident can put QUITE a strain on a program. Without open-mindedness on both sides, the observant Jew can end up with some MAJOR friction.

 

[hzma]

Muslims don't have a "sabbath" that they can't work on. The only thing is a Friday Noon prayer and sermon that lasts like an hour, max. The rest of the day they WORK. And even that prayer has exceptions in emergency situations or even nonemergent situations like travel, or sickness. And there is no example from anywhere in the religion that breaks need to be given for Ramadan or any other month. Work is a form of worship.
Just to clarify that aspect.
cya.

 

[Leukocyte]

Is "observing the Sabbath" required of ALL Jews? Are there any exceptions? I mean, how do hospitals in Israel manage to work around this?

 

[flighterdoc]

Is "observing the Sabbath" required of ALL Jews? Are there any exceptions? I mean, how do hospitals in Israel manage to work around this?

We're allowed to work for emergencies - fire, police, EMS don't shut down on shabbos. Students and residents are in the medical schools and hospitals even in Israel....

 

[f_w]

We're allowed to work for emergencies - fire, police, EMS don't shut down on shabbos. Students and residents are in the medical schools and hospitals even in Israel....

Especially in Israel. The rocket attacks and bus-bombings don't stop on friday night.

(Somehow, the enforcement of these rules seems to be limited to cities less than 50 miles from either the eastern or the western seaboard of the US. I had some israeli colleagues in residency who commented on the sabbath track: 'these are the same people who hold up the bus back home on saturday'.)

 

[emtji]

as a muslim, there is no sabbath that we observe. men, technically, are supposed to go to friday afternoon prayers (jum'ah). if i am working and it would be disruptive to work, i don't go.

before med school, i worked 16 hours shifts on christmas and christmas eve at the ambulance company i worked for 3 straight years so that my christian friends could enjoy the holiday with their family. most of those observing were able to take the day off.

i think the stress in this thread has a great deal to do with the fact that people use religion (among other excuses) to get out of obligations. People who aren't that religious suddenly become religious when there are benefits involved. Do the right thing and no one will have a problem.

Some muslims get some weird ass breaks for the MONTH of ramadan.

I fasted throughout Ramadan and never once asked for a respite during my rotation. it would defeat the purpose of fasting if you sat in a recliner all day and did nothing because you were not eating. I resent someone insinuating that we use Ramadan as some sort of vacation.

 

[f_w]

I resent someone insinuating that we use Ramadan as some sort of vacation.

Well, there are people who see it that way and whose religious observances put a burden on everyone else (this is a problem certainly not specific to orthodox judaism). You should resent your muslim colleagues who 'use' ramadan in that way, not necessarily the person who notices it.

 

[EctopicFetus]

New Year's Eve/Day in the United States is even more secular than Christmas. Even though for Catholics January 1 is the "World Day of Prayer for Peace", I still don't know many that go to church on January 1, unless it's a Sunday.

Moreover, "New Year's" dates to Roman times, in that Janus (where the month "January" comes from) was depicted as a two-faced god, one looking forward, and the other looking backward towards the past year. Even more so, Janus (which was actually Ianus) got HIS name from the Latin "ianua", meaning "door", as the new year is the "door" to the future.

Right but this is based on the christian calendar. Jews have their own calendar and their own new year. I believe the same is true for muslims. Whether or not this has lost some of its original religious meaning is another question.

There was a great article a few yrs back in time or some other weekly periodical about how no one celebrated christmas until the 1700's or so and ever since then it has blossomed into a "meaningful" holiday. Most christians i know (including my wife and her family) go to church xmas day but not on new years day.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Especially in Israel. The rocket attacks and bus-bombings don't stop on friday night.

(Somehow, the enforcement of these rules seems to be limited to cities less than 50 miles from either the eastern or the western seaboard of the US. I had some israeli colleagues in residency who commented on the sabbath track: 'these are the same people who hold up the bus back home on saturday'.)

I think it should be pointed out that most israeli jews are orthodox, they are the minority though less so than here in the US.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Well, there are people who see it that way and whose religious observances put a burden on everyone else (this is a problem certainly not specific to orthodox judaism). You should resent your muslim colleagues who 'use' ramadan in that way, not necessarily the person who notices it.

Agreed. FWIW I am a 100% non-observant jew. Hell my wife is a christian. I agree with the above and i am annoyed at myself for posting in a forum other than my own.

 

[Apollyon]

Right but this is based on the christian calendar. Jews have their own calendar and their own new year. I believe the same is true for muslims. Whether or not this has lost some of its original religious meaning is another question.

Yeah, but Rosh Hashanah isn't like the Day of Atonement. Even the guy who was anesthesia-critical care and Sephardic Jew you could identify by sight alone from 10 feet away, with a name like Shlomo Ben-Gurion (not his name, but close), was in the hospital on New Year's. I thought he was going to first fall over, then started smiling widely when I wished him "La Shanah Tovah!". I wouldn't begrudge a guy Yom Kippur or Passover or Chanukah, but, as I said above, to accomodate people, there has to be open-mindedness on both sides.

 

[flowerss]

I do not wish to work on my sabbath which is Sunday. When the Lord declared to keep the sabbath day holy, I consider myself responsible to keep the commandment. One does not have to be jewish to be under covenant to keep the sabbath day holy. As a Christian we believe that when the Lord was resurrected on the first day of the week that became the day we worship our Lord. So should I expect programs to grant me my Sabbath off? I am all for that, just make sure we are all willing to help with each others religious preferences, right?

 

[TheWowEffect]

I think that anyone with a religious reason for not working a particular day or days would be accomodated.

I used to work with a Sikh. He got two weeks (winter/summer solstices?) off for religious observances. He made it up the rest of the year.

Dude, he was probably fooling you. There are no requirements in Sikh religion for these prolonged religious solstices. FYI, Sikh religion was created to eliminate all rituals from the spiritual life, although some people have started all these religious observances all over again.

 

[flighterdoc]

Dude, he was probably fooling you. There are no requirements in Sikh religion for these prolonged religious solstices. FYI, Sikh religion was created to eliminate all rituals from the spiritual life, although some people have started all these religious observances all over again.

Whatever. He worked so hard the rest of the year we didn't begruge him his time off.

His only failing was an unhealthy interest in Cricket.

 

[TheWowEffect]

Whatever. He worked so hard the rest of the year we didn't begruge him his time off.

His only failing was an unhealthy interest in Cricket.

Sikhs are generally harding working people. In fact, Sikhism is based on the principles of hard work and sharing.

Cricket, on the other hand, is another religion for most Indian folks. They love their cricket like bstone loves his sabbath

P.S.- I vote for separation of religion from everything else, including politics, medicine, law, football, shopping, shipping, whiping etc etc etc. Spirituality is a personal thing, and organized religion should be banned and banished from the face of earth.

 

[justwondering]

as a muslim i can say most Muslims can be very practicing (daily prayer, congregational prayer on friday, fasting, two religious holidays, etc)without seriously disrupting their work or inconveniencing ppl. most of those things do not take a long time to do. even while fasting, if i'm on a hard rotation, i'll just keep my food with me so i can eat it quickly when its time to break my fast without taking 20 mins to eat. ive never heard of someone not working during ramadan unless they used their allotted vacation time. if i need to pray (like we do 5 x a day--usually 1 or 2 at work), i will forgo lunch to do it or stay later to finish up my work (tho that's usually not necessary at all since it takes like 5-10 mins). for our religion (and probably most religious traditions), preserving life has priority over prayer, etc, so if it's NECESSARY for preserving life, there are allowances we can take. the thing is tho, usually, it's not necessary for schedules to be made the way they are, its just the custom of the hospital or particular specialties to not take brks, etc.
ive been totally open to working on sundays to help out my christian colleagues (havent had a jew on my team who observed sabbath, but i'd help out too if i did have one) or to help someone because they want to go their sister's wedding. as long as we can make some sort of trade (i work now, u work then), or even without a trade if it's important. if ppl need big accomodations, it would be wise to make up for it (trading duties eveenly) and to choose a larger program so that the burden could be spread evenly if any.

really, though, i dont see why they couldnt make a sabbath-observant schedule for a jew when they can adjust their schedules for pregnancy, etc.

 

[sohsie]

Quick clarifications:
1) Sabbath-observant Jews cannot ask a non-Jew to perform work on the Sabbath specifically for their benefit (ie flip a light switch so they can read). this is a rabbinic proscription that is not of biblical origin.
However, trading coverage does not fall under this rubric since the person covering on the Sabbath is benefitting the patients, not the covering person. It would be akin to asking someone to turn on a light for a thrid person who is not Jewish so they can read.

2) Most Jews in Israel are NOT Orthodox

3) There are many opinions in the Orthodox Jewish world as to the interplay betweeen the Sabbath and medicine. Two people may follow two completely different opinions in this area and yet be just as "Orthodox" in other aspects of their religion.

I have other comments, but I have to go run and interview a candidate.

 

[f_w]

However, trading coverage does not fall under this rubric since the person covering on the Sabbath is benefitting the patients, not the covering person. It would be akin to asking someone to turn on a light for a thrid person who is not Jewish so they can read.

Somewhat weasely and lawyerish explanation, but it would probably hold up in court.

2) Most Jews in Israel are NOT Orthodox

And at times actually get quite irritated with their orthodox brethren in the US, especially if those meddle in domestic israeli politics.

3) There are many opinions in the Orthodox Jewish world as to the interplay betweeen the Sabbath and medicine. Two people may follow two completely different opinions in this area and yet be just as "Orthodox" in other aspects of their religion.

And as I found out apparently different degrees of observance are possible within the same individual (if the external circumstances favor one course of action over the other).

 

[VFTW]

Yeah, but Rosh Hashanah isn't like the Day of Atonement. Even the guy who was anesthesia-critical care and Sephardic Jew you could identify by sight alone from 10 feet away, with a name like Shlomo Ben-Gurion (not his name, but close), was in the hospital on New Year's. I thought he was going to first fall over, then started smiling widely when I wished him "La Shanah Tovah!". I wouldn't begrudge a guy Yom Kippur or Passover or Chanukah, but, as I said above, to accomodate people, there has to be open-mindedness on both sides.

Rosh Hashanah is a much more religiously important holiday than Chanukah. It is a High Holy Day and it second only to Yom Kippur in terms of Jews who take the day off for observance. It also surpasses Passover by a huge margin in terms of observancy to "shomer shabbos" type rules.

 

[TheWowEffect]

wtf? This is turning into studentpreacher.net

 

[chicamedica]

wtf? This is turning into studentpreacher.net

Not studentpreacher, but we are all trying to educate each other as to our religions/beliefs and correct misconceptions/misunderstandings. Nothing wrong with that. If you're not interested in reading about this, dont click on this thread. Thx.

 

[TheWowEffect]

Not studentpreacher, but we are all trying to educate each other as to our religions/beliefs and correct misconceptions/misunderstandings. Nothing wrong with that. If you're not interested in reading about this, dont click on this thread. Thx.

Oh sure!! you are. All I can see here is a discussion about about how my religion is more important than yours. I am sure soon it'll degenerate into whose religion is better, if it hasn't already. It will be great if all these observances, fasting days and religious rituals make someone a better person but all it does is make bigots out of people.

Religion is all good but only if used for right reasons and in the right manner. It can be scary when emotion gets involved and one can not think beyond one's own religion and its rituals, and will do anything including using religion for some personal motives, as mentioned in some posters above.

 

[sohsie]

I celebrate your open mindedness, your defense of one's right of freedom of religious and your good nature.

Bingo!

 

[TheWowEffect]

I celebrate your open mindedness, your defense of one's right of freedom of religion and your good nature.

The mother earth thanks you and all the religions for the bloodshed, wars, terrorism, exploitation of people, and their emotions. She certainly feels lighter with less humans pounding her surface.

 

[Vaderize]

It's not your views about jews taking time off that provoked the cries of anti-semitism, but the commentary in your original post about "G-d's chosen people" and not giving a "****" about them.

Additionally, your self-professed vitriol (ie "I'm not nice about it") didn't win you any points.

If you are going to act like a jerk, then expect to be called out on it.

 

[thewarehouse]

I really don't see what the big deal is. If I'm working with a Jewish physician that observes sabbath and he/she wants to take Saturdays off, what's the problem with just respecting him/her for that and switching shifts? Especially in a residency program with more than, say, 2 residents, I probably won't even get stuck working every Saturday.

I mean come on, is it really that hard to just say "yeah, no problem- I'll switch with you this week" if you have nothing else going on? When you're working 80-hour weeks and 30-hour days the rules of probability say that you'll probably end up working at least part of Saturday anyways.

And the more I think about it, what exactly will I be giving up by rotating Saturdays to help accommodate my colleague? A chance to go out drinking? Maybe a study day? College football? Whatever it is I don't think it compares to someone else's religion- he/she obviously holds it very dearly and I think as a physician I'd need to be mindful and respectful of anything that plays such an important role in somebody else's life. Things might be different if I ask to take certain religious holidays off (or, if I'm not religious, other important days) and he/she doesn't agree and has no good reason, but how likely is this to happen if everyone just acts reasonably and conscientiously? That, weighed with the fact that any residency with more than one other doc will mean that I will get a Saturday off too once in a while just makes me feel like all the resistance being put up isn't really worth it.

And I'm not Jewish. I'm actually Arab, but I just feel like everyone should try to accommodate other people when at all possible else even if it means making some sacrifices...

 

[f_w]

I really don't see what the big deal is. If I'm working with a Jewish physician that observes sabbath and he/she wants to take Saturdays off, what's the problem with just respecting him/her for that and switching shifts? Especially in a residency program with more than, say, 2 residents, I probably won't even get stuck working every Saturday.

I mean come on, is it really that hard to just say "yeah, no problem- I'll switch with you this week" if you have nothing else going on? When you're working 80-hour weeks and 30-hour days the rules of probability say that you'll probably end up working at least part of Saturday anyways.

And the more I think about it, what exactly will I be giving up by rotating Saturdays to help accommodate my colleague? A chance to go out drinking? Maybe a study day? College football? Whatever it is I don't think it compares to someone else's religion- he/she obviously holds it very dearly and I think as a physician I'd need to be mindful and respectful of anything that plays such an important role in somebody else's life. Things might be different if I ask to take certain religious holidays off (or, if I'm not religious, other important days) and he/she doesn't agree and has no good reason, but how likely is this to happen if everyone just acts reasonably and conscientiously? That, weighed with the fact that any residency with more than one other doc will mean that I will get a Saturday off too once in a while just makes me feel like all the resistance being put up isn't really worth it.

And I'm not Jewish. I'm actually Arab, but I just feel like everyone should try to accommodate other people when at all possible else even if it means making some sacrifices...

I gather that you never worked in a rotation that had an unflexible religious observer in it ?

 

[thewarehouse]

I gather that you never worked in a rotation that had an unflexible religious observer in it ?

You're absolutely right, so take everything I say with a grain of salt because I have no specific clinical experience to back any of it up and everything I say probably doesn't apply to any situation being discussed in this thread. I know there are a lot of other people here with a lot more experience than I have and so their points are probably more valid.

The reason why I posted is that I think the issues we're discussing here are generalizable to more than just medical school rotations. I've had plenty of other jobs and had to fill in a lot of hours washing dishes, busing tables, working on cars, whatever. My coworkers needed certain days off and I would try and help and they would always do the same for me. Everyone always looked out for the people they worked with- I just don't see why that has to stop during a four- or eight-week rotation in med school. Who knows, though- like I said, I've never been in this situation and so I can't say with complete certainty how I'd react. I just hope if it ever happens I choose to do for them what I would reasonably want them to do for me. And I know "reasonable" leaves a lot up to interpretation, but I don't think it unreasonable to include religious observances and family events among the things you try to be flexible for...

 

[f_w]

I just don't see why that has to stop during a four or eight week rotation in med school.

This was a thread about sabbath observant residencies. And for 3-5 years it can get kind of tiring to work with someone who persistently won't have to take the worst call of the week.

If this was about 'helping someone out' or having some reciprocal deal that alllows everyone to get the best out of it, this wouldn't be an issue. This is about religion of one person reaching into the work-life of another.

 

[f_w]

There is a fine difference between "won't" and can't. I wonder why you don't understand this.

Religion falls under the broad category of 'things you do because you want to'. Also, as pointed out earlier, the degree to which this is observed is up to the individual (and probably his rabbi).

 

[swpm]

Religion falls under the broad category of 'things you do because you want to'.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

To throw one extra data point into the thread, at my program, weekends are not work days unless you're on call. Moreover, post-call days are off after AM academics etc. So a Saturday call is the worst call of the week - not only are you working on a day that is usually an off day, but your other off day (Sunday) is to some degree impacted by the fact that you were up all night. In contrast to a Saturday call, Sun-Thu calls carry the benefit of a regular (post-call) work day off, and Friday calls aren't too horrible because Friday's a work day already.

All of us at my program get along well, and go out of our way to cover for each other and accommodate requested days off. But there is absolutely no way I would be willing to chronically pick up a share of the Saturday call slack because one (or more!) of my peers wants every Saturday off.

This was a thread about sabbath observant residencies. And for 3-5 years it can get kind of tiring to work with someone who persistently won't have to take the worst call of the week.

If this was about 'helping someone out' or having some reciprocal deal that alllows everyone to get the best out of it, this wouldn't be an issue. This is about religion of one person reaching into the work-life of another.

There is a fine difference between "won't" and can't. I wonder why you don't understand this.

I'm not quite clear on what you're saying.

Are you suggesting that there are people who truly can't take Saturday call, ie have no option in the matter because their religious beliefs won't permit them to work on Saturdays?

 

[billydoc]

No, but residency isn't like regular work. I'm not especially observant, so it doesn't affect me, but I think if I wasn't Jewish, and someone consistently got weekends off (and I didn't) I'd be resentful - especially when there is no clear prohibition against it (no work, vs. saving a life). Doctors working weekends are there to save peoples lives - they may not "have" to, but if they weren't necessary the hospitals wouldn't pay them to be there.

I didn't work through the whole thread, but i can tell you "weekends off" is not how it works. I've worked at Beth Israel (Petrie campus) for many years as an RN in the 1990s. Residents who were in the Sabbath observant program had to work ALL SUNDAYS. So it's not like telling everybody "ba-bay" at 4 pm on Friday, and show up back on Monday. It's a fair deal. BTW it existed for other professions as well. There were many RNs in the L&D, and ER who I knew were off every Saturday, but on duty every Sunday. And I'm sure many Jewish mothers to be, or sick folks didn't take a day off. But that's where many other staff members get lots of OT, and per diems make some megabuck through the agencies.

Also somebody mentioned Jewish doctors working in Israel on Saturdays. Of course they do. Israel is a Jewish state, and has predominantly a Jewish population, albeit from all continents. Every State has an obligation to its citizens. So IDF is on guard 24/7 as well. Can they afford not to? The Yom Kippur day War comes to mind, and the war of atrition,and never ever ending Intifada i guess it would be difficult for the smart, snotty liberal Jews from the Upper Eastside to relate to it anyway. So Sabbath program for residency is an option, but not a requirement, but it is in the Holy Land.

Happy Christmas

Merry Hanukkah


Shabbat Shalom

 

[Winged Scapula]

I didn't work through the whole thread, but i can tell you "weekends off" is not how it works....Residents who were in the Sabbath observant program had to work ALL SUNDAYS. So it's not like telling everybody "ba-bay" at 4 pm on Friday, and show up back on Monday. It's a fair deal.

I think some of the issue (or perhaps most of the issue) is that others DON'T see it as a fair deal, especially when in-house call is involved.

For example, as noted in a thread above, if you are on call Saturday, you work all day Saturday and go home (at some time) post-call on Sunday and then come back at the usual time on Monday.

However, someone who observes has all day Saturday off, perhaps is on call Sunday and goes home early post-call on Monday. Thus, they have essentially a day and a half off (Saturday and post-call Monday), whereas the person on call Saturday has only a half day (Sunday post-call) - of course, providing you are in a program which allows you to go home post-call at a decent time.

 

[f_w]

So you simply disregard the historical, familal, traditional, ethnic and religious implications that religion has?

As well, Judaism is not merely a religion. It has a way of life. There is a language, culture, country and system.

So YOU simply disregard the interests, way of life and employee rights of everyone else in your rotation ?

 

[f_w]

So it's not like telling everybody "ba-bay" at 4 pm on Friday,

Actually, often it is before 4pm, after all all travel has to be concluded before sundown. And if that is at 5.30pm, heck the call person just has to take sign-out (and all the 'pt x potassium is 2.6' phonecalls) at 3pm.

It's a fair deal.

So are payday loans.

Also somebody mentioned Jewish doctors working in Israel on Saturdays. Of course they do. Israel is a Jewish state, and has predominantly a Jewish population, albeit from all continents. Every State has an obligation to its citizens. So IDF is on guard 24/7 as well. Can they afford not to?

That is the point. Not taking call on friday night/saturday is the equivalent of asking a gentile to do your work for you. Funny enough, IN israel, that doesn't seem to be acceptable. In the 50mile corridor from the eastern seaboard of the US it is. Why ?

 

[Docxter]

A sabbath observant jewish classmate of mine in internship stayed a little too late (i.e., 5:30 PM) on a Friday evening, and so wouldn't make in time to get home. So he stayed in the hospital. However, when I tried hitting the sack at 4:00AM, tired and after admitting my ninth patient, I found him sleeping in my call room and on my bed (the only one for the on-call intern!). I let him sleep and just curled up on two chairs which I lined up together in the nursing station. He well knew that this was my bed for the night and just didn't give a sh**t.

If you want to observe the sabbath, fine, but where is this sense of entitlement coming from that you're allowed to scr**w everyone else in the process??? If anything, you should be aware that your religious observance is causing inconvenience for others, and try to minimize the negative impact it has on other people. Some observant jews realize this, but unfortunately a good number don't.

And my comments are not about me being inflexible and not accommodating of fellow colleagues' needs. God knows how many weekends I've split or changed to accomodate my jewish colleagues. It's about having the correct attitude when you're asking your colleagues to chronically inconvenience themselves to accommodate your religious beliefs every week for years and years.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you are willing to work every single long weekend of the year in return for not taking Friday/Saturday call?

 

[swpm]

So you simply disregard the historical, familal, traditional, ethnic and religious implications that religion has?

Yes - if someone else's religion routinely and unfairly resulted in me doing more work to pick up their selfish slack. I wouldn't merely disregard these lofty "implications" - I'd be openly contemptuous of them and suspicious of the person who claimed them.

As well, Judaism is not merely a religion. It has a way of life. There is a language, culture, country and system.

This is utterly irrelevant to me. I'm glad that you enjoy speaking your language, take comfort in your culture, and hang out in Israel - if that's what makes you happy.

My way of life is to work hard, serve my patients, and enjoy my share of weekends off with my family and friends.

So just where the **** do you get the audacity to come in here and assert that your way of life is more important than mine, and then imply that people who are unwilling to chronically pick up your slack are insensitive prejudiced bigots?

However, you will continue to be closed minded. This is not a surprise. Like before, I celebrate your open mindedness, tolerance and good-nature.

And apparently you will continue to think that your beliefs make you special and worthy of privilege.

I don't think you get it. Respect is not a one-way street. You are not entitled to special treatment because you belong to a particular culture or have chosen to practice a particular religion.

 

[lateness]

Also somebody mentioned Jewish doctors working in Israel on Saturdays. Of course they do. Israel is a Jewish state, and has predominantly a Jewish population, albeit from all continents. Every State has an obligation to its citizens. So IDF is on guard 24/7 as well. Can they afford not to? The Yom Kippur day War comes to mind, and the war of atrition,and never ever ending Intifada i guess it would be difficult for the smart, snotty liberal Jews from the Upper Eastside to relate to it anyway. So Sabbath program for residency is an option, but not a requirement, but it is in the Holy Land.

Happy Christmas

Merry Hanukkah


Shabbat Shalom
[/QUOTE]


Ummm, you are forgetting to add, the never ending Illegal occupation and oppression of the west bank, continued building of illegal settlements, and the tanks, apache helicopters, jets, and effect the idf has on crushing the other population in the region...whom have much worse and little access to health care, and suffer much more...i wonder about their doctors, and the schedules they keep?

oh and this country is predominantly Christian, which in all practicality would make sense to be biased for the majority of it's population, even if they aren't.

 

[swpm]

Ummm, you are forgetting to add, the never ending Illegal occupation and oppression of the west bank, continued building of illegal settlements, and the tanks, apache helicopters, jets, and effect the idf has on crushing the other population in the region...whom have much worse and little access to health care, and suffer much more...i wonder about their doctors, and the schedules they keep?

I think you need a t-shirt.



Oh, and please try to use the preview button so you don't screw up quotes and attributions.

 

[f_w]

I just tried to get some Bagels for breakfast. Guess what the sign at the door of our local bagel store said:

Closed for Christmas on 12/24 and 12/25

 

[Whodathunkit]

I just tried to get some Bagels for breakfast. Guess what the sign at the door of our local bagel store said:

Closed for Christmas on 12/24 and 12/25

But for really though. I think those that don't think it's a big deal to have to work EVERY or MOST Saturdays don't understand that the medical profession schedule does not conform to what most peoples M-F 9-5 schedule is. We've already given up a fair amount of social/personal time with family and friends and look forward to a Friday night or Saturday day. Just as Saturday means alot to you, it also means alot to us. Sunday is usually nothing more than a mental preparation for Monday(for me anyway). Not to mention the post call aspect of ruining pretty much the entire weekend.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if say "Wednesday-Thursday" was considered in this society as the "weekend". Then if you wanted to have every Saturday off, I don't think it would be such an issue.

 

[Faebinder]

Docs in Israel don't take off saturdays...

Diseases don't stop coming in on saturdays...

I am sure God (whichever form you follow) is all-wise and merciful and will understand that you need to save/improve lives on saturdays... Just like the christians need to do it on sundays.. just like the muslims need to do it on fridays...

Good luck..

 

[billydoc]

Most of you guys aren’t getting it still. I can’t answer to everybody who quoted me, and such. But first, I don’t know how many of you lived in Israel, or even visited the Holy Land (?) Even now, and more so in the past many Orthodoxed religious Jews were exempt from serving in IDF. Of course, there are those who have conscience, and take their guns in one hand and their Tholmud in another. But the same arguments exist in Israel itself. You’ve got to understand that most Israelis represent a very secular population, which resembles the one in U.S, and that of Western Europe. I remember not so long ago reading that a Sabra (an Israeli-born Jew) had refused to accept a Kosher meal aboard El-Al airline, while many non-Jews have not made it an issue, and even asked for more. I understand the general sense of frustration by many who perceive it as doing “more work”, and see the “chosen people” getting so-called preferential treatment. But unless any of you are in these programs you’re simply B.Sing your way through this forum and are clueless. I remember residents who keep Shabbos coming back on Saturday night, and taking over for those who worked “last“ Friday night. If they worked any less than other residents these residency programs would have found a huge lock on the door. It’s simply a different time allocation, but NEVER EVER LESS than what’s required. Also it works out just marvelessly for the non-Jewish folks who get those Sundays off with their families, Churches etc. So the comment how can you ask gentile to do YOUR work for you is out right idiotic, b/c they do YOUR work EVERY SUNDAY. Also, those who sign up for these programs, which btw a very few and far between know exactly the deal before they get started. Most Sabbath-observant programs are very local, and are sponsored by the local hospitals, which depend on the neighborhood communities to bring in the $$$$ mullah-smulah geshefts. I can’t tell you how many times a Jewish patient or their family member refused to be cared for by another Jew (me) on Saturdays, or the Jewish holidays. Call them what you will, but the way it was explained to me (I’m not particularly observant) is…if there is anyone else who could do the job it’s more desirable. So here is your explanation about Jews working for other Jews in the Jewish State of Israel, where in America, and more so in a pseudo-America like Brooklyn, NY (Maimonides) and Beth Israel South (lower East side and Williamsburg across the bridge) there is ALWAYS someone non-Jewish available, and doing it happily, often for more money than on the regular day.

So my “friendly”, and not so friendly non-Jewish fellow human beings. don’t let your hearts be troubled. You will never see Israel being pushed out to see in your lifetime, even if you whish for it. It’s been tried before, and NEVER AGAIN are the words of wisdom I sugguest you learn cold and fast.

For the rest of you… have a very Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa, and anything else you may be celebrating, and a Happy, Happy New Year to All

 

[f_w]

But unless any of you are in these programs you're simply B.Sing your way through this forum and are clueless.

I spent 6 years of my medical education in residencies where this was an issue. And it didn't make a difference whether it was a formal sabbath-track program, or whether one of my classmates just didn't take friday/saturday call due to his religious preferences.

It's simply a different time allocation, but NEVER EVER LESS than what's required.

Except that (as pointed out repetitively in this thread by various people to no avail), saturday call f^*#s up a weekend like nothing else. Also, the person who takes sunday call can take off on monday. Saturday call ist just an extra day of work (28 hrs of call time vs 18hrs for sticklers). Both of my residencies are examples that proove your 'NEVER EVER' statement wrong.

Also it works out just marvelessly for the non-Jewish folks who get those Sundays off with their families, Churches etc.

Didn't work for me (and for nobody else I know thrown into this situation).

So the comment how can you ask gentile to do YOUR work for you is out right idiotic, b/c they do YOUR work EVERY SUNDAY.

I didn't ask for that and there is no prohibition against me working as a physician on sunday. (I can attend church on saturday night or go to the hospital chapel sunday morning, no need to abandon the patients for my religious observance). And in the end, it is a gentile who has to do YOUR saturday call, how can you argue that this is not asking (or more precisely forcing) a gentile to do your work ? (funny enough, during my internship that resident was often enough a non-sabbath track jew)

Also, those who sign up for these programs, which btw a very few and far between know exactly the deal before they get started.

The resident who signs up for the sabbath track knows what he is in for, the people who have to pick up his slack don't.

there is ALWAYS someone non-Jewish available, and doing it happily, often for more money than on the regular day.

Except that the residents who are stuck with the extra saturday calls DON'T get paid extra to do so. In nursing, this is not a big issue. The person who picks up the extra shifts probably has a car payment to make or an ex-wife to feed, in residency you don't even get a thank-you.

You will never see Israel being pushed out to see in your lifetime, even if you whish for it. It's been tried before, and NEVER AGAIN are the words of wisdom I sugguest you learn cold and fast.

??
(I believe it is called 'Goodwins law of the usenet'. Look it up!)

 

[Tired]

So my “friendly”, and not so friendly non-Jewish fellow human beings. don’t let your hearts be troubled. You will never see Israel being pushed out to see in your lifetime, even if you whish for it. It’s been tried before, and NEVER AGAIN are the words of wisdom I sugguest you learn cold and fast.

In other words, if you have a problem with sabbath-observing residents being given preferential treatment, you are an anti-Semite who supports the destruction of Israel. You're no different than Hitler.

Way to shut down intelligent conversation by dragging up the ghosts of Nazi Germany.