Sabbath-observant Residencies

[pgg]

(I believe it is called 'Goodwins law of the usenet'. Look it up!)

Godwin, actually, but close enough. May as well close the thread.

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[billydoc]

I guess selective reading is a way to go when you've got nothing else of a substance to offer. I believe I already said that Sabbath-observant programs have more of the neighborhood communities in mind than any particular residents. I told you before that patients, and their families object very loudly to the care being rendered by another Jew. Particularly if it's not an absolute life-threatening emergency. for example, Hatzolah EMS works 24/7 without any regard to Saturday or a Jewish holiday. It is actually a Mitzvah http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/whatisamitzvah.html for a Jew to serve another Jew in an emergency, where otherwise it would be prohibited, and considered a work, and therefore a sin. I'm no Jewish scholar, and can't really explain it the way Rabbi could, nor do I think that most of you care to get into such details. But that exactly explains why Jews (only those that have to) work 24/7 per their schedule. There is nobody else to do it. And they can't rely on anybody else to defend them as well. The Hx shows that those who wanted to attack Israel did it at the most vulnerable time i.e Jewish holidays, or Saturdays.

So, to Tired, or may be "too tired" to read the entire post and understand? Where was I trying to shut down the "intelligent" conversation? The "Never Again" is right, b/c ppl of Israel will brake the Jewish law in order to stay alive, and btw, while at it save all others living in Israel who have nothing to do with being Jewish at all. And if you want my opinion, current Israili government in the past few years did a lot more for self-destructing than all of the enemies of the Jewish State combined could ever hope to achieve Hope it helps.

F_w, why did you have to "suffer" for such a long time (6 years)? I actually don't know any residency program, or any job for that matter, that tolerates ppl just dropping their responsibilities...be it on-call duty, or a shift or what have you. Unless you were in a formal Sabbath-observant program, or the "Jews" in your program had some kind of a formal agreement with the administration of which everyone else involved must have been informed, I do not see how it was possible. But generally speaking there far more residency programs where you won't find any Jews, or no religious ones anyway. Why suffer? As I've said before, i've worked in both MMC (Boropark Brooklyn), and Beth Israel Petrie, and I have yet to see or hear anybody who "suffered" like you claim. They always got their time back. And Sundays are not only for going to Church, many didn't care about it, and just wanted to be with their families. B/c now it was the time for, you've guessed it, THE JEWS to carry on . That was my point. But you are not prohibited by your religion to work on Sundays, and the Orthodox Jews are on Saturdays. Should they convert to make all of you happy?

 

[factoid]

So you simply disregard the historical, familal, traditional, ethnic and religious implications that religion has?

As well, Judaism is not merely a religion. It has a way of life. There is a language, culture, country and system.

However, you will continue to be closed minded. This is not a surprise. Like before, I celebrate your open mindedness, tolerance and good-nature.

why don't you move to israel? i'm sure you'll have no problems then.

i have a religion that requires certain things too, but i don't make a big stink about it. no person should be a burden on anyone else, no matter what their religion says. Do you really think God would want anyone to be so selfish? If you're in residency, you gotta give a little. if you're gonna go to Hell for working on a saturday and helping ppl out (patients as well as your coworkers) then you better give up now.

 

[factoid]

Asking me 'why don't you move to Israel' is no different from telling an African-American individual "don't like the racism? Move to Africa."

It is sad that people racist and anti-semetic tendencies are played expressed here. Perhaps you should stop posting and meditate on what you wrote.

ok, may be u should meditate on what you wrote...race, anti-semitism, etc have nothing to do with this. this is about logic. we are all working in a high-stress, painful environment to reach a common goal...becoming, hopefully, good physicians. now, we should, as residents, understand each others pain and try to lessen it as much as possible. that means, you gotta make sacrifices for each other. but to expect someone to cover for you every saturday is ridiculous. you should not be treated any differently. if there are programs that are specifically tailored towards jewish needs, i have no problem with that. but, assuming these programs hire only strictly observant jews, how would they function on saturdays? now i'm starting to wonder what folks in israel really do. i gather most of them are not that observant, or else alot of ppl would be dying on saturdays.

please, if you are jewish, have some respect for those who have died due to anti semitism and stop watering it down by accusations of antisemitism over every criticism. that's a total cop out.

 

[billydoc]

This thread seems to be moving at a steady pace towards being closed. There are unnecessary, and baseless accusations flying all over. Why ppl who oppose Sabbath-observant track residency don't take it up with their respective programs? This is where b.S is not gonna fly, just how it continuesly does on SDN. Are ppl who speak on the subject they know very little, or nothing at all about really that derranged, unable to follow, and got a chip on their shoulder? Or is there an agenda? The programs for Sabbath- observers exist for ALL health care providers, not just doctors in residency exclussively. Let's try it again. Hellooooooo?!!!!! General patients base which for many years was predominantly Jewish, in those specific areas of Brooklyn, and Lower East-side in Manhattan expressed their wishes quite clear. The communities are the ones bringing in the $$$$$$. There are local politicians who are exploiting these things as well. It's politics more than it is a religion. Honestly, I've met quite a few non-Jewish folks who preferred to work, and do residency at the institutions like these once. They were making some nice buck while working Saturdays and Jewish holidays. What's even more important they for the most part were able to have Christmas, Good Friday, Easter etc off. I've never heard their Jewish counterparts to make a stink about it, like this one on SDN the hospitals continue to run 24/7, and schedules are approved way ahead of the time. I can't obviously comment on every encounter you may have had with this, but what I saw at MMC and BIMC were not issues at all. Get over it. All it is is trading Friday nights off for the Suturday nights and all Sundays on with prior approval by all related parties. But in every group of ppl (not only the "chosen" ones) you'll get a few bad examples. It shouldn'be such a shocker to you,if you were smart enough to get in and make it through the medical school.


Peace

 

[f_w]

or any job for that matter, that tolerates ppl just dropping their responsibilities...be it on-call duty, or a shift or what have you. Unless you were in a formal Sabbath-observant program, or the "Jews" in your program had some kind of a formal agreement with the administration of which everyone else involved must have been informed, I do not see how it was possible.

Resident matches for position. On day one informs residency director that he won't be taking call on fridays/saturdays. After some back and forth, administration throws up their hands and tells PD to cover call-schedule somehow. That is how it worked.

 

[toughlife]

Resident matches for position. On day one informs residency director that he won't be taking call on fridays/saturdays. After some back and forth, administration throws up their hands and tells PD to cover call-schedule somehow. That is how it worked.

Sneaky.

 

[billydoc]

Resident matches for position. On day one informs residency director that he won't be taking call on fridays/saturdays. After some back and forth, administration throws up their hands and tells PD to cover call-schedule somehow. That is how it worked.

How is that possible? Is this what you want to believe or were you a party to this? What is the reason for the program to keep a resident like that? Why would they not fire a resident like that, or tell him/her to get into the formal Sabbath-observant program? I think it's a pure B.S. That's NOT how it works in the programs that I'm familiar with. Would be you be brave enough to post the name of the hospital where this was the issue? I really doubted that such B.S is possible, and most observing Jews probably will not take such risk of being thrown out. And even if it was the case once, just think...if you were a PD who was lied to... yeah, yeah by "them sneaky ppl with the bull horns, you know, the ones who suck the blood of non-Jewish infants", toughlife right ?... as a PD would you ever take another religious Jew into the program? We still have a ceparation of Church and the State in this country, and that includes Synagouges, Temples and Mosks. So i don't want to hear the B.S of being threatened with the law suit for the religious freedom. That does not have any merrits. BTW the same Jewish-sponsored institutions are bending over backwards to hire all types of minorities, to allow Friday prayer for muslims, and serve Halal meals, and to bring as much "diversity" which offten borders on the perversity by being so "non-judgemental" and "cool" to onlyreceive a spit in their face as a Thank You for being so PC (read politically cowardly, not correct)

 

[Tired]

So, to Tired, or may be "too tired" to read the entire post and understand? Where was I trying to shut down the "intelligent" conversation? The "Never Again" is right, b/c ppl of Israel will brake the Jewish law in order to stay alive, and btw, while at it save all others living in Israel who have nothing to do with being Jewish at all. And if you want my opinion, current Israili government in the past few years did a lot more for self-destructing than all of the enemies of the Jewish State combined could ever hope to achieve Hope it helps.

The point everyone has been beating themselves over their head to make to you (and the same one I was going for): No one ever wanted your opinion on Israeli politics, the history of the Jewish people, or the Holocaust.

The posters you have villfied with your disgusting and dishonest accustaions have said, very frankly and honestly, that residents who do not work on the Sabbath made their lives more difficult during residency. They were not speaking in abstract terms or commenting on anything other than their own personal experience. They were talking about their own programs.

Your answer: call them bigots and Nazis.

I have no experience with this issue (which is why I have followed this thread so closely). But it's pretty obvious when someone starts throwing around insults and accusations for the sole purpose of shutting up people they disagree with, but have no intelligent counter-argument for.

 

[lateness]

Why in the world did you have to bring politics into this? What does the observance of Orthodox Jews and the Sabbath have to do with the secular-political doings of the Israeli government?

Godwin's Law is approaching 0.

umm u brought politics into this, by quoting, the intifadeh, among other things affecting when and where orthodox jews work or don't work..

 

[lateness]

I think you need a t-shirt.



Oh, and please try to use the preview button so you don't screw up quotes and attributions.

i usually don't spend enough time on the posts to review everything and the quotes, the internet requires enough work already, im lazy...

 

[lateness]

.[/QUOTE]


actually this entire thread, had political tendicies from the start,,
it shouldnt, but it did. my prediction is that quotes will get misread and misrepresented and misinterpreted and then noone can understand what is going on,...:

well i suggest everyone, have a good safe and happy new year,

 

[billydoc]

The point everyone has been beating themselves over their head to make to you (and the same one I was going for): No one ever wanted your opinion on Israeli politics, the history of the Jewish people, or the Holocaust.

The posters you have villfied with your disgusting and dishonest accustaions have said, very frankly and honestly, that residents who do not work on the Sabbath made their lives more difficult during residency. They were not speaking in abstract terms or commenting on anything other than their own personal experience. They were talking about their own programs.

Your answer: call them bigots and Nazis.

I have no experience with this issue (which is why I have followed this thread so closely). But it's pretty obvious when someone starts throwing around insults and accusations for the sole purpose of shutting up people they disagree with, but have no intelligent counter-argument for.

So, you have no experience on this, as you’ve admitted, but you have something very important to add? You’ve followed this thread very closely. Really? Why such passion? And how do you know that other posters are saying truth and I’m not? I think you are confusing me with somebody who gives a rat’s a$$ about your opinion. You have no credibility on the subject whatsoever. So you are projecting your own little twisted thoughts on me. I DARE YOU to find anywhere in my posts me calling people Nazi or the Holocaust. This must be how your degenerate mind operates. You can’t connect the dots. You are the one trying to shut me up, with your twisted and baseless accusations. I’ve responded to the numerous posters who repeatedly stated that docs in Israel don’t take off Saturdays, b/c diseases don’t either. First of all it’s entirely B.S b/c they docs and other healthcare staff works on a rotating basis. If “Never Again” was too hot for you, well it should. If you were even remotely able to follow the “intelligent” conversation you would’ve seen that. Simply put, the Jewish law allows to work on Sat and holidays when yours, or someone else’s life in danger. I don’t care if you don’t want to know that. This was in response to OTHER posters, not you, *****.

But listen pal, I’m not your little girlfriend, so don’t try patronize me, and tell me what I should and should not post on here. In every post I wrote only about two institutions where I’ve worked long enough to speak on the subject. Both of those institutions are JEWISH, and the Sabbath-observant programs are FORMAL. So before you’ve decided to spew your venomous rhetoric here you should’ve at least read my posts, not give your knee-jerk bull shale. What garbage! And since you’re so passionate about the subject you are absolutely a clueless ignoramus about, you should have noticed that I’ve provided the names of the institutions that I was writing about. I haven’t seen anybody else do it. And don’t give me the crap about residents being afraid to post on SDN. When there is a problem you’ll see “Extra, Extra read all about it on SDN” real quick. So who is speaking in abstracts? Go look in a mirror now. BTW I wrote in my posts that I understand that residents may have had problems with Saturday call, if they weren’t made aware about the Saturday to a Sunday MUTUAL and EVEN TRADE OFF to begin with. B/c that’s how it should’ve been done. And if it wasn’t they should’ve sued the s*!t out of this hospital. And yes, breach of the contract is enforceable on both sides! On the other hands if they lied on here they should be done to them. I’m not a religious Jew myself, and I have no stock option in this thread. But as I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, for a very “specially gifted” people like too ‘tired” to understand…The Sabbath-observant program is available to ALL hospital staff, not exclusively residents. These programs are demanded by the surrounding communities, NOT INTERNS AND RESIDENTS!!! Get it?! So everybody knows exactly what he or she gets when they sign up for it. But, I understand it may be way too difficult of a concept to grasp for you. Anyway, no harm in trying. So you can run your yaaaaaapppeeeer all you want. See if I give a rat’s a$$ about it. But accuse me, and project your hatred on to me! Read before you write!

Have a nice life

 

[f_w]

This is how it didn't work. You portray Sabbath observant Jews in a very negative light. It is highly critical and possibly anti-semetic. Too bad.

I am sorry that this doesn't fit into your firmly held belief system. But this is unfortunately how it went down.

It mainly affected us during the first 18 months of residency. After that call frequency dropped off to make it less obvious. Also, by agreeement of all residents in the call rotation we came up with an 'hour balance' system where every call was weighted by the amount of hours you actually added to your regular workday (subtracting the post-call time you got off during weekday and sunday calls). After we introduced that, he ended up taking a couple of extra calls every year. He is a nice guy and except for the saturday thing very accomodating for switch requests, so after the dust settled things worked out all right.

Btw. you are not gaining any points by calling me an anti-semite.

 

[f_w]

How is that possible? Is this what you want to believe or were you a party to this? What is the reason for the program to keep a resident like that? Why would they not fire a resident like that, or tell him/her to get into the formal Sabbath-observant program?

This went all the way to the attorney generals office in our state. In the end it came down to 'if he doesn't want to work for days of religious observance, you can't force him'.

I think it's a pure B.S. That's NOT how it works in the programs that I'm familiar with.

I guess your field of view is limited to the hospitals lining the east river and NY bay.

As I mentioned, I did another residency where we had a formal sabbath track program. They just had a more formalized way of screwing the non-observers.
I ended up on a 1:3 ICU rotation with one of the 'tracked ones'. As a result, I and the other resident (non-tracked jew), ended up with schedules that violated the section 405 rules (there is not much switching you can do in a 1:3 schedule without running into 80hr and time-off limits) So far, the issue apparently had been handled by not putting the observers on that ICU rotation, but somehow it didn't work out otherwise this month. Given the threat of a 405 fine, the program made arrangements to pull floor residents to fill in the saturday gaps in the call schedule.

if you were a PD who was lied to...

No lie involved. There is no law that requires you to tell your employer about your religious choices when you interview.

as a PD would you ever take another religious Jew into the program?

Well, after that experience probably not. He never said anything, but I don't think he was happy about the disruption it caused.

We still have a ceparation of Church and the State in this country, and that includes Synagouges, Temples and Mosks.

I'll just leave this to stand like you wrote it.

 

[sohsie]

This thread was started because a medical student wanted to know what sabbath-observant residencies are out there (LisaY). She later stated that she got into one and she is happy. Therefore, there is no more point to this thread.

However, if a poster like f_w would like to open a new thread on a topic such as "Why Sabbath Observant residencies stink and are unfair to the non-Sabbath track residents", perhaps that would be the proper forum for people to have this battle out. Not that anyone will actually change their mind or learn anything. But still, everyone will get to vent.

 

[Jejton]

So, you have no experience on this, as you’ve admitted, but you have something very important to add? You’ve followed this thread very closely. Really? Why such passion? And how do you know that other posters are saying truth and I’m not? I think you are confusing me with somebody who gives a rat’s a$$ about your opinion. You have no credibility on the subject whatsoever. So you are projecting your own little twisted thoughts on me. I DARE YOU to find anywhere in my posts me calling people Nazi or the Holocaust. This must be how your degenerate mind operates. You can’t connect the dots. You are the one trying to shut me up, with your twisted and baseless accusations. I’ve responded to the numerous posters who repeatedly stated that docs in Israel don’t take off Saturdays, b/c diseases don’t either. First of all it’s entirely B.S b/c they docs and other healthcare staff works on a rotating basis. If “Never Again” was too hot for you, well it should. If you were even remotely able to follow the “intelligent” conversation you would’ve seen that. Simply put, the Jewish law allows to work on Sat and holidays when yours, or someone else’s life in danger. I don’t care if you don’t want to know that. This was in response to OTHER posters, not you, *****.

But listen pal, I’m not your little girlfriend, so don’t try patronize me, and tell me what I should and should not post on here. In every post I wrote only about two institutions where I’ve worked long enough to speak on the subject. Both of those institutions are JEWISH, and the Sabbath-observant programs are FORMAL. So before you’ve decided to spew your venomous rhetoric here you should’ve at least read my posts, not give your knee-jerk bull shale. What garbage! And since you’re so passionate about the subject you are absolutely a clueless ignoramus about, you should have noticed that I’ve provided the names of the institutions that I was writing about. I haven’t seen anybody else do it. And don’t give me the crap about residents being afraid to post on SDN. When there is a problem you’ll see “Extra, Extra read all about it on SDN” real quick. So who is speaking in abstracts? Go look in a mirror now. BTW I wrote in my posts that I understand that residents may have had problems with Saturday call, if they weren’t made aware about the Saturday to a Sunday MUTUAL and EVEN TRADE OFF to begin with. B/c that’s how it should’ve been done. And if it wasn’t they should’ve sued the s*!t out of this hospital. And yes, breach of the contract is enforceable on both sides! On the other hands if they lied on here they should be done to them. I’m not a religious Jew myself, and I have no stock option in this thread. But as I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, for a very “specially gifted” people like too ‘tired” to understand…The Sabbath-observant program is available to ALL hospital staff, not exclusively residents. These programs are demanded by the surrounding communities, NOT INTERNS AND RESIDENTS!!! Get it?! So everybody knows exactly what he or she gets when they sign up for it. But, I understand it may be way too difficult of a concept to grasp for you. Anyway, no harm in trying. So you can run your yaaaaaapppeeeer all you want. See if I give a rat’s a$$ about it. But accuse me, and project your hatred on to me! Read before you write!

Have a nice life

This is a very confusing post to follow.

 

[billydoc]

This is a very confusing post to follow.

Well good morning to you then. We're glad you made it here. How about not starting reading from the end? Try reading my posts, responses to my posts, my responses to the responses to my post and you'll be on the same page with us. How is that for clarifying the ?

 

[billydoc]

This went all the way to the attorney generals office in our state. In the end it came down to 'if he doesn't want to work for days of religious observance, you can't force him'.



I guess your field of view is limited to the hospitals lining the east river and NY bay.

As I mentioned, I did another residency where we had a formal sabbath track program. They just had a more formalized way of screwing the non-observers.
I ended up on a 1:3 ICU rotation with one of the 'tracked ones'. As a result, I and the other resident (non-tracked jew), ended up with schedules that violated the section 405 rules (there is not much switching you can do in a 1:3 schedule without running into 80hr and time-off limits) So far, the issue apparently had been handled by not putting the observers on that ICU rotation, but somehow it didn't work out otherwise this month. Given the threat of a 405 fine, the program made arrangements to pull floor residents to fill in the saturday gaps in the call schedule.



No lie involved. There is no law that requires you to tell your employer about your religious choices when you interview.



Well, after that experience probably not. He never said anything, but I don't think he was happy about the disruption it caused.



I'll just leave this to stand like you wrote it.

O'K f_w. I think now we are getting somewhere. So I'm glad it all worked out in the end, may be not to everyone's satisfaction. But you guys all lived through it. to tell you the truth I'd be pi$$ed as well if i've signed up to do one thing, and somebody just screwed me without giving nothing in return. That's why I gave you all a disclimer from the get go that my experience is only with two Jewish hospitals in NYC and Brooklyn, NY. I never ever said that what ppl are saying is not true, i just couldn't understand for the life of me, why don't the rest of the residents stand up and fight if they thought it was unfair.. I understand and I'm not here to endoctrinate ppl on what's good and what's not. But we do have some pretty diturbed posters who want to hear, and see only what fits their agenda. Even if they have nothing factual to say, they feel it's their "duty" to run their yaper and to make a complete fools out of themselves. But I think we've beaten that issue to the illogical end. I've reposted what I know in about 5 posts already. Some have gotten it, and some never will. It's just the way it is. but no intentional disrespect meant to anyone, just self-defense PRN .
good luck to all. Do some research and choose your programs wisely. There is no need to change the World. It's quite fvcked up already.

Happy Holidays

 

[lateness]

Quoting a situation in which people work is hardly making a political claim, as you have done.

It is like saying, "Due to the outbreak of the plague, the hospital required all doctors to work extra days." This is not a political statement.

Saying, "Because the evil government oppresses the minority population and released the plague into their water supply, the lazy doctors had to work a few more shifts." This is a political statement and it doesn't belong in this conversation.

i dont follow ur logic in this statement... and i never said any of those things..

but saying about the situation in which people work is a political statement, bc it isn't actually true and is definitely debatable.. i dont think it was nec to add that in israel the doctors are working under those conditions, unless to politicize the conversation. i just dont want people to think that every doctor is a trauma specialist and always working under conditions of war, inside israel.
as for their schedules, the docs i know in israel have never complained to me about any of the concerns that i have heard here in this thread,

and by the way when religion was first brought up in this thread there was no way to keep politics, or racism out of it, just so you know, regardless of whom initiated it, religion and medicine are incommensurable.

 

[Bitsy3221]

I just read this thread from beginning to end, and have been irked by what many posters have written, both those in favor and those against specific work hour restrictions for religious reasons. I thought I might add a (hopefully) straightforward, noninflammatory view:

I can really only speak to a surgical residency where--like it or not--hours are often longer and schedules are far less flexible than in some other specialties. My personal experiences have shown that residents, regardless of if they "like" each other or think their co-workers are "nice guys," are very protective of their own time off to spend doing things they like/want/need to do--be it to spend with family, pay bills, go grocery shopping, read People magazine, study, worship, visit friends, drink a bottle of wine, go to the gym, take a nap, walk the dog--you get my point. What residents (or really ANY person, as this post has shown) do not want is another person to step in and openly state that those non-work activities that they like/want/need to do are less worthy or less important than what other people like/want/need to do, and they are going to become inflammed when this happens.

The reason that I choose to refer to the non-work activities as "like/want/need" is that these activites are very personal decisions, and it is these activities that resident do outside of the hospital that keeps them sane in the hospital, and makes them focused doctors and efficient co-workers. We all know that when focused and happy residents are on your team, work is better than when someone burned out and unhappy and over-stressed is on your service with you. I do know some residents and attendings who are or were high-level athletes who view their training much the same way that certain people view their religious practices. (Some of the more zealous pro-religious posters may feel upset and horrified that I would make that comparison, but that is the way it is.) They have had to make allowances to adjust their personal interests to accomodate their insane work hours. The fact is that any person is going to be personally insulted if anyone steps in to say that their personal choices should be set aside because they are not as "dignified" or "worthy" as other choices. Someone who is as dedicated to a sport, hobby, or family is going to be upset when someone cites religion as the only "worthy" reason to make significant schedule restrictions, even if the law is on your side--it's human nature.

To the strictly observant Jewish posters on this forum, I applaude you for your dedication to this way of life. In my heart of hearts, I do not think every person who has disagreed with you is anti-Semitic (some, yes, but not all) they are merely trying to tell you where they are coming from. Taking the Sabbath off is not a Holiday, and may not be fun, but it is necessary for your spiritual and emotional well being so you can be the best person and doctor you can be. Someone else's Saturday off to visit an old friend or run a triathlon may be equally as vital to their emotional and spiritual well-being. Although the LAW may be on your side, you need to understand that just because your don't respect or agree with others' priorities they are asking for leniency and tolerance and flexibility on your part, just as you are from them. If you feel that your interpretation of religious law will not allow you to be more flexible, perhaps you should reconsider your career--many wonderful and respectful professions will allow you the religious schedule you need.

Sabbath or not, Saturday SUCKS in the hospital for EVERYONE for so many reasons, many of which have been mentioned (scheduling, workload, loss of weekend, etc). In my experiences, an overnight, in house Saturday call is signficantly more disruptive to someone's week, schedule and body than a Saturday "shift" at a restaurant or as an EMT (as I have done all three)--you are much less likely to get any sleep on a Saturday night call, and this basically physically wipes you out on Sunday if you are expected to function the whole next week. And to be frank, offering to work the few Christian holidays is simply not a fair trade off for getting every Saturday off the year. (Trading the Jewish High Holidays for the Chrisitian ones is a different story) If people were to work a disproportionately higher number of Saturdays to cover for their religious colleagues or for whatever reason, they am going to have to set aside personal things of great importance to them--no chance to visit family, attend weddings, etc. and they clearly feel that this is a great infringement. Even having Sundays off honestly is not the same trade in many programs. Once in a while may be fine, but consistantly would truly be too much to ask of your colleages, that is all some of the other posters are trying to say.

 

[Tired]

I DARE YOU to find anywhere in my posts me calling people Nazi or the Holocaust.

Post #190, insinuating toughlife's feelings about Jews: "yeah, yeah by "them sneaky ppl with the bull horns, you know, the ones who suck the blood of non-Jewish infants", toughlife right"

Post #177, suggesting that those who disagree with you are seeking the destruction of Israel: "You will never see Israel being pushed out to see in your lifetime, even if you whish for it."

You must have forgotten that you wrote these things?

This must be how your degenerate mind operates.

So I see you've still got nothing. Why didn't you just call me an anti-Semite? It's obvious you wanted to.

You can't connect the dots. I've responded to the numerous posters who repeatedly stated that docs in Israel don't take off Saturdays, b/c diseases don't either. First of all it's entirely B.S b/c they docs and other healthcare staff works on a rotating basis. If "Never Again" was too hot for you, well it should.

. . . . and we're back to, "Disagree with me and you support the destruction of Israel"

Since this thread has degenerated into nothing more than you calling people names if they disagree with you, I guess I'll be done with it. Have fun talking to yourself, since obviously this was your goal from the outset.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Well, after that experience probably not. He never said anything, but I don't think he was happy about the disruption it caused.

Could you blame him?

 

[TheWowEffect]

Someone else's Saturday off to visit an old friend or run a triathlon may be equally as vital to their emotional and spiritual well-being.

Good post overall. Loved this point the most though

 

[pgg]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our first violator of Godwin's Law.

No, that was billydoc in post #177 who first dragged Nazis into the thread with his "pushed out to see" and "NEVER AGAIN" quotes.

Did I call it or what?

No, that was f_w in post #178. Granted, he referred to it as "Goodwin's" law, but close enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

And I posted a link to that exact page in post #180!


Are you even reading the posts you're replying to?

 

[f_w]

This thread was started because a medical student wanted to know what sabbath-observant residencies are out there (LisaY). She later stated that she got into one and she is happy. Therefore, there is no more point to this thread.

However, if a poster like f_w would like to open a new thread on a topic such as "Why Sabbath Observant residencies stink and are unfair to the non-Sabbath track residents", perhaps that would be the proper forum for people to have this battle out. Not that anyone will actually change their mind or learn anything. But still, everyone will get to vent.

I don't think it is a requirement of SDN threads to stick strictly to the original posters question. But this thread has jumped the tracks and turned into a silly name calling contest.

Maybe there is a sabbath observant residency out there that has a fair and equitable system (e.g. by hiring moonlighters to cover the days the sabbath track residents won't take), but I have yet to see it. When this whole thing came up, I talked to a number of chief residents of programs with sabbath tracks, none of the schedules they sent me was truly fair. In the end we went with the 'hour balance' method. Still doesn't address the fundamental problem, but at least the hours spent in the hospital end up being the same.

It is sad that you can't discuss issues of schedule creation on SDN without some people trying to drag their political ideology into this.

 

[billydoc]

Post #190, insinuating toughlife's feelings about Jews: "yeah, yeah by "them sneaky ppl with the bull horns, you know, the ones who suck the blood of non-Jewish infants", toughlife right"

Post #177, suggesting that those who disagree with you are seeking the destruction of Israel: "You will never see Israel being pushed out to see in your lifetime, even if you whish for it."

You must have forgotten that you wrote these things?



So I see you've still got nothing. Why didn't you just call me an anti-Semite? It's obvious you wanted to.



. . . . and we're back to, "Disagree with me and you support the destruction of Israel"

Since this thread has degenerated into nothing more than you calling people names if they disagree with you, I guess I'll be done with it. Have fun talking to yourself, since obviously this was your goal from the outset.

First of all, Tired, I don't call anybody any names, and just report my observations like it or not. For the 100th time I will go out of my way to explain to you that the qoates "Never Again" and the whole issue of Israel being dragged into this thread wasn't my idea. A lot of posters "envoked" Israel as "see, see Jews must work on Saturdays in Israel, why can't they do the same in America?" kind of questions. I believe I went to a very detailed explanation, but in a nutshell they can't afford not to be on guard 24/7. Also Israel is a Jewish State where lots of non-Jews live and work. So if there is nobody else to work, but the Jew, then it's not a sin to work on saturdays and J. holidays. However, if it all possible it should be avoided. Like it or not it's a Jewish law. I never accused you or anybody else of being a Nazi, or out to destroy the State of Israel. So let's recap, shell we?
Q:Why Saturdays (in Israel)?
A: B/c "Never Again" they will be caught off guard, and wait for the rest of the World to do their work (defense) for them.

Could we put this to rest now? i surely hope that we will.

Let's see now, I'm not going to quote "toughlife". Let him or her explain what does "sneaky" comment mean? The "sneaky" in resonse to something like "well first the Jewish resident matches, and then just says drop dead to everyone, and won't take Saturday call" (paraphrased from f_w) to me meant
"those sneaky Jews". I really found it hard to believe that if somebody doesn't take call on Saturday per their contract, then the institution won't give them a boot based on a breach of their contract.
So spare all the "dramma". Nobody is trying to shut you up. But when you hear the opposing view you are projecting on to me your thoughts. and they are not always well-intended, for a lack of a better term. You of all posters on this particular thread have no experience on this issue. Yet, you've followed it very closely, and even chose sides. I never intended to insult you, however, i expect nothing less in return. I wouldn't be throwing the stones if i myself lived in a glass house.

I'm done with it too.

Signing off

 

[f_w]

f_w, I seem to recall that (above) you said a fair system had been worked out in your case.

Fair when it came to the hours, not fair when it came to the number of weekends lost to saturday calls. Also, until we changed the system (after a mutiny of the junior residents), we had to do the extra work without compensation. It is not like anyone paid us back for the first 18months.