Salaries in Medicine

[Piebaldi]

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[Emmet2301]

That's one of the reasons you shouldn't look at just salary when deciding on a career in medicine.

To be fair though a lot of data science/engineering maxes at like 170kish for most people. Only top managers would make more. Even those high numbers are for those at companies like Facebook and not always for SE at a regular company. A regular SE would probably go from like 60-150K for most of their career (unless they move to management).

Doctors earn a lot more, but it does come with more education/loans/sacrifices etc.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The grass is not always greener on the other side, and I would not assume that the people that are as successful as you outline are putting in minimal effort or sacrifice. And ultimately, it comes down to supply and demand. By and large any licensed physician is going to be "good" at what they do, while there is a real premium on the *best* in those other fields.

Furthermore, not everyone in those industries are that successful, whereas medicine is one of the few fields where you have reasonable certainty of getting a salary in that range.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I think that's a misconception. I know a lot of engineers with bachelor's degrees that are pulling in 150k, and they are not elite or extraordinary anything - they are basic software type engineers, none with more than a bachelor's, and most from very standard basic schools.

In medicine we go through the ringer to get into medical school, to get through med school, go through tons of hoops, go through pointless standarized testing which determines our specialty, and go on to more board testing that never ends, only to be told what to do with other bachelor degree corporate execs.

With all the sacrifice we make to become doctors it seems that more and more other careers make more sense these days.

That is an argument that one could make. Like I said, the grass isn't always greener on the other side and you might be surprised by what they think of their jobs and lives.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I think that's a misconception. I know a lot of engineers with bachelor's degrees that are pulling in 150k, and they are not elite or extraordinary anything - they are basic software type engineers, none with more than a bachelor's, and most from very standard basic schools.

In medicine we go through the ringer to get into medical school, to get through med school, go through tons of hoops, go through pointless standarized testing which determines our specialty, and go on to more board testing that never ends, only to be told what to do with other bachelor degree corporate execs.

With all the sacrifice we make to become doctors it seems that more and more other careers make more sense these days.

Yeah, but will they ever make 400k+? For 99% of them, the answer is no. You can 400k+ even as a family physician in an underserved area if you work hard enough.

 

[Emmet2301]

^ Yes engineering has better perks and a better lifestyle. But you'd be doing engineering work not medicine. You get into medicine because you actually want to do it and help people.

 

[RangerBob]

I haven’t seen the data that suggests these folks are making physician sales lies within just a few years. Maybe in Silicon Valley with the big tech companies (with insane COL, and miserable work-life balance)?

As physicians we grossly underestimate how much work others put in. 40hrs/week with no work once you get home and weekends off is not the norm for professionals. My sister is a teacher and she puts in much more than 40hrs/week, often working late at night on lesson plans. She gets paid hardly anything (great benefits though). Engineers are very often putting in long weeks. My cousin works at Apple and is miserable. Terrible hours. Business is brutal for those making good money. Hardly any investment banker making good money can tolerate more than a few years at the big firms because burnout is so high-from both the hours as well as the sense that they’re there to make money and not do something meaningful.

I’m sure plenty in those professions are happy. Still, many people are jealous of what we do-we are in one of the noblest professions, make great money, get great respect, have great job security, and the ability to create a very good work-life balance (should it be desired, with some loss of income of course).

 

[dpmd]

It isn't about the pay. If that was the only thing that brought you to medicine then yes you will be miserable when you see other paths that could have led to similar net worth over time (assuming they actually invested some of their early earnings). Yes it is nice if you get compensated well, but it isn't worth doing something you wouldn't like. Hey, that is why people don't do general surgery right, even though I am working part time and getting paid way more than the primary care folks. I actually like what I do. School was hard but i enjoyed myself. Residency was hard but i enjoyed that too. Even though I don't enjoy call so much, I do enjoy the patients it brings me to care for. Eventually I will stop taking call though. And at that point it will be worth the decrease in money I make (not salaried, my income is dependent on my collections from insurance/patients but in general less work means less money).

 

[rokshana]

I really don’t understand...you truly sound as if you are not happy and very dissatisfied with your choice to stay in medicine...why are you staying in it?

I dont think I have ever seen you post anything positive about medicine...youre still young...there is no shame in looking to do some thing you do enjoy.

 

[rokshana]

Yes I frequently think I made a poor choice - I am working on doing my own thing, I have come to the realization that I would be most happy working for myself.
Kind of hard to turn back now that med school, grad school, residency, etc is all completed.

It's also kind of hard to give up a bunch of money. What am I going to do - sit home and hang out with the dogs? Don't think so.
I'm certainly not doing nay more schooling.
But again I am in the process of opening my own clinics. I hate bureaucracy.

While not common, there are people who have switched to non clinical and non medical careers...they post here and maybe they could help give you some guidance...

You are still training and this unhappy...the bureaucracy doesn’t get better as an attending...you have to be able to find the things you like enough to put up with the bureaucracy.
Can you name 5 things you like about being in medicine?

I’ll start...

1. I like it when I have a pt come that is perplexing and I get to play detective to figure it out.

2. I like seeing the lightbulb turn on in the eyes of My patient when they understand or get a grip on their disease.

3. I like it when patients are appreciative of me being there to take care of them.

4. I like it when my patients come in on a follow up and they say I feel great because of what you told me to do.

5. I like being able to work 2weeks a month and having time to go to meetings and travel.

 

[dpmd]

I'm glad. I think the bureaucracy is better as an attending, life was very relaxed for me as an attending - I was making above average salary for my highly saturated area, and I was done typically by 2pm or so. Reasonably stress free too. But I think I've had an above challenging journey, which has extended some of my misery - yes I know you think everyone has hardships in this process, so we'll agree to disagree. But medicine has changed a lot too.

And it's not that easy to get into nonclinical type of careers - that takes a process.I also have to take part II of my boards ugh. Have to be BC for whatever reason for those gigs.

You were an attending and went back for more training?

 

[DarkHorizon]

It depends - sure if you are an ENT or a Dermatologist making 600k a year and working M-F that's great. But many physicians in the non super specialist roles are miserable - I work call some weekends and while I have managed to carve out a nice niche work schedule/pay as I work through fellowship, I see many of the PCPs/IM/FM/non super specialists and they seem miserable. Don't make that much, put in crappy hours, etc. I see some notes at like 9pm or osmething sometimes.

My own husband - and granted he started out as an engineer and has a PhD in electrical engineering, which was free as most phd's are, but he took my advice and went into a more finance type business environement, got an MBA, etc - makes a base in the 150's, and has a variable discretionary bonus, from 10-30k or so. For someone in their 30's, who didn't have to do residency, gets off all holidays, won't ever get sued, works from home, works whenever he wants, can take off essentially within a day's notice, etc. it' pretty good. Sure there are some months where he's putting in 12-15 hour days but I woldn't say that's the majority of his work schedule.

So not too shabby.

I don't think I would recommend once i have children that they go into medicine.Too much sacrifice - and with things like physicians getting fired to hire midlevels, do we really have that much job security?

I don’t think anyone is making 600k working a M-F 9-5 schedule, unless you have some sweet private practice setup where your younger associates are bringing in money for you.

Anyway, agree with your comment on bureaucracy, too many suits telling us what to do. But what I do is very gratifying. Anyone can do trickery with numbers and work up the excel sheets. How many can fix a bad open tibia fracture with bone hanging out, and then see their patient walk in a few weeks? How about a pelvis fracture? Money doesn’t really matter, anyone who’s just doing trickery with numbers and playing on excel sheets is not even going to come close the service physicians provide, even for a day. We make real difference in people’s lives.

 

[Raryn]

So this is just a general thread - sorry if it's in the wrong place
I have noticed more and more that salaries in other disciplines, most notably engineering, data science, actuary, business, etc are on par with many physician salaries. It seems many of these indiivduals can make 150-200k within a few years of work, spending far less time and money on education, far less effort/sacrifice, no call, etc. A good software engineer can make that kind of money and more at times.

Why is it that employers in healthcare are so stingy yet these companies are so liberal with their salaries? Many also give unlimited PTO, free healthcare, free food, etc.
At times I feel - why did I waste all this time?

What determines fair market wage for a software engineer? There is no formula to determine what coder is better than any other coder. The companies compete with each other for the best engineers in a more-or-less free market fashion. That leads to a significant disparity in pay - there are tons of engineers, data scientists, businessfolks that make a LOT less than $150k/year - there's plenty that make $50k. Or less. Yeah, the guy working for Google gets tons of money and perks - but he's in the top few percent of his field. Same thing with say, law - for every biglaw partner making high six figures there's probably 4-5 lawyers making $60-70k.

On the other hand, physicians are in a much, much more regulated field. The government and insurance companies determine how much we're reimbursed for the work that we do - and in most cases, the take-home pay is pretty correlated to that. Each new patient visit I have pays my employer a couple hundred bucks (or whatever), they subtract out some amount for overhead (usually about half) and profit (less than you would think) and pay me the remainder. So I can control how much money I make - somewhat - by seeing more patients, but there's a much, much tighter range of salary. There's some variability among employers based on efficiency and profit margin, particularly when people are salaried (especially in academics), but in the end there's much less variation. Maybe 2-3 fold for any given specialty (outside of things like managing multiple practices with tons of midlevels) - not 10-20-fold like you get in engineering.

You could argue that anyone with the intelligence and drive to be a physician would be in the top 5-10% in any other field - but we have no real evidence of that. I don't think I'd make a very good CEO for example. But what do I know?

TL;DR - as physicians, we have a lower ceiling than say, software engineers or MBAs, but a much, much higher floor.

 

[Raryn]

"as physicians, we have a lower ceiling than say, software engineers or MBAs, but a much, much higher floor."

Sorry I don't understand what that means?

10th-90th percentile for an internist is roughly $170k-$400k. Even if you include the more extreme outliers, it's probably $150k-$450k realistically. Thats a 3-fold difference.

I don't have access to the same data for software engineers, but my bet is their range is much more extreme. Maybe $30k - $600k - or a 20-fold difference.

Our top salary might be lower than their top salary - but our bottom salary is a hell of a lot higher than their bottom salary.

Basically, a poorly paid doctor still makes good money, while a poorly paid software engineer makes jack diddly.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I see, that makes sense. I don't know too many software engineers who make 600k, but we certainly spend years training to become docs. Software engineers get a bachelors' and they are done, with the expcetion of some people who might get a master's or even less who get a phd.
So our investment is much higher.

And we also make much higher.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I disagree on this - at least for non-specialists. So let's go with Raryn's example above - let's say the average PCP/FM doc out there graduates. So they are likely in their 30's depending on when they went into med school, any delays, etc. Let's say 32. Let's say they are in a midsized city. Maybe $225k? Typically 3-4 weeks of vacation. Let's say they have $100k in student loan debt. Not all jobs in medicine have bonuses.

By 32, the average person who say did a BS and is an electrical engineer is likely making $150 or so. No call, no residency, no holidays, the occasional 50-60 hour week when big projects are pending. No risk of getting sued, etc. Let's say they do really well and get a $15k bonus, up to $165. Not bad.

So perhaps the $60k difference is not that great if it makes sense.
And yes we do have as physicians an incredible ability to transform lives, to make the world better - but you'd think for the important role we serve that hospitals, administrators, and pay would be better.

I know at least 10 electrical engineers, may be one or two of them make over 120k, they are all my age, I’m in my mid 30s. Let’s be realistic. In order for you to make more than 150k as an engineer, you have to be to be top of the top, not to mention you have to be lucky.

Even a bottom dweller from med school, who failed classes and barely finished training a lowly community program in FM will have jobs paying over 200k, likely over 250k if they work hard. If they really care about money, they can make 350k to 400k going to underserved areas. None of these opportunities exist for engineers/excel sheet crunchers. If they are elite, they do have a higher ceiling I.e becoming a CEO etc.

If you are half way decent med student and really care about money and lifestyle, you’ll easily make 400k+ doing anesthesia/rads. If you’re really ambitious, you’ll make 600k+.

Loans are a real issue, especially for folks going into peds. But there are avenues for them to ease the burden. They can go to underserved areas and get hefty salaries in addition to loan repayment. Yes, you can’t have it all, you’ll have to make a sacrifice somewhere.

 

[Raryn]

If you look at the big employers (yes I realize that not all are big employers) - Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, linked, etc etc - you can easily make over $150k as an engineer. Dropbox supposedly pays engineers an average of $379k, and into the 500's. And yes I agree that not all engineers make that kind of money but I would imagine that if you are a little ambitious you can do really well.

Just saying.

I chuckled a little with your description I must say - I'm liking your post.

"Even a bottom dweller from med school, who failed classes and barely finished training a lowly community program in FM will have jobs paying over 200k, likely over 250k if they work hard."

The FAANG companies hire the best of the best. <10% of software engineers are of a caliber to work for them, no matter how ambitious they are.

 

[Waraba]

I think there's another thing to consider. People in the software industry, as an example, often have to survive layoffs. And I would argue they become less likely to survive them as they age into their 50s and beyond. I think physicians, on the whole, have better job security.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'd disagree here - my brother for example who has a Bachelor's degree in EE from a public school has worked for a bunch of top companies - Dell, EMC, and might even work from Dropbox even after taking years off for travel, staying at home to take for his kid, etc. No research, no publications, nothing. So not that hard to get hired.

Just saying!

I'm just not really sure what you're arguing over here. You've got plenty of people on here telling you that it is NOT a walk in the park to be an engineer/business/whatever, and your n=1 of your brother isn't exactly a strong rebuttal. Just because he graduated from a state school doesn't mean he didn't work his ass off at those companies to justify a great salary, but even if he was just lucky that doesn't mean that everyone in that field is so fortunate.

Frankly, it just sounds like you just wanted to start one more conversation about how you're unhappy in medicine. Which is fine I guess, there are plenty of people in medicine who aren't super happy doing the job every day, but I think it's unfair to argue that the people who make good money in other fields don't work every bit as hard as we do to be successful.

 

[PieOHmy]

So this is just a general thread - sorry if it's in the wrong place
I have noticed more and more that salaries in other disciplines, most notably engineering, data science, actuary, business, etc are on par with many physician salaries. It seems many of these indiivduals can make 150-200k within a few years of work, spending far less time and money on education, far less effort/sacrifice, no call, etc. A good software engineer can make that kind of money and more at times.

Why is it that employers in healthcare are so stingy yet these companies are so liberal with their salaries? Many also give unlimited PTO, free healthcare, free food, etc.
At times I feel - why did I waste all this time?

Stingy? they pay what they can get away with paying and not one penny more.

 

[AMEHigh]

I disagree on this - at least for non-specialists. So let's go with Raryn's example above - let's say the average PCP/FM doc out there graduates. So they are likely in their 30's depending on when they went into med school, any delays, etc. Let's say 32. Let's say they are in a midsized city. Maybe $225k? Typically 3-4 weeks of vacation. Let's say they have $100k in student loan debt. Not all jobs in medicine have bonuses.

By 32, the average person who say did a BS and is an electrical engineer is likely making $150 or so. No call, no residency, no holidays, the occasional 50-60 hour week when big projects are pending. No risk of getting sued, etc. Let's say they do really well and get a $15k bonus, up to $165. Not bad.

So perhaps the $60k difference is not that great if it makes sense.
And yes we do have as physicians an incredible ability to transform lives, to make the world better - but you'd think for the important role we serve that hospitals, administrators, and pay would be better.

I mean teachers work hard, many have masters degrees plus more credits and still make 40k a year. So unfortunatelt "merit" and "saving lives" doesn’t translate to being a millionaire. People in the military in low ranks also make poor salaries and they can be sent to war. Most lawyers also don’t make great money. There are plenty of law jobs that start at 40k-60k and the salary doesn’t exponentially increase. Same with PhDs, they’re not rolling in it either and their schooling is as longer or longer than ours.

So yeah I think there are many things wrong with our healthcare system and how much school costs, but there are very few jobs that guarantee 6 figures and you’ll pretty much be able to find a job anywhere.

Plus, one can certainly leave medicine if not happy with the salary. No one is forcing you to keep practicing.

 

[DarkHorizon]

How much money do you expect to make working a PM&R job 8-2 M-F? Because that’s what you previously said you worked?

 

[DarkHorizon]

I'm not complaining about my job - I was making about 300k.
I'm just surprised that some tech jobs pay what they do.

I would take doing rehab work 8-2 M-F making 300k any day over any tech/excel jockey job, anywhere in the world.

 

[rokshana]

Right - but in the tech sector companies are very GENEROUS with their pay AND benefits. Why such different cultures?

Because they are different fields...that’s like saying actors are paid 2 million dollars for a movie...or celebrity chefs are payed 500k for an episode ...yes there is a subset of people in those fields that are highly paid but the average actor or chef is only getting a few thousand dollars a week for their work...

 

[rokshana]

I'm not complaining about my job - I was making about 300k.
I'm just surprised that some tech jobs pay what they do.

Seriously?!! You were
Making 300 k working part time and you are complaining???

And if you really think teachers are compensated appropriately for the work that they do in and out of school, then you do not know ANY one who works in the public school system...and of you think 80k/yr in Chicago is actually livable wage, then you haven’t lived in a major metropolitan area.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Yes I am aware that no one is "forcing me" to do anything.
I disagree with the teachers thing - in Chicago (I work in burbs here) teachers make close to 80k with fantastic benefits, and only work 9 months. So not too shabby. PhDs can do very well - aka my husband is a great example. Sure if you get a PhD in art history you'll end up working at Starbucks but a STEM PhD is very profitable in industry. Lawyers make bank - the lawyer I'm currently working with to figure some stuff out charges like $300 bucks an hour. Not shabby.

I was just pointing out issues in how sadly the culture in medicine is quite toxic. That is all.

You keep presenting anecdotes like the one engineer/teacher/whatever you know is how everyone in that field lives. And arguing about what is a fair wage for a teacher is just completely missing the point of the post that you quoted.

I'm not complaining about my job - I was making about 300k.
I'm just surprised that some tech jobs pay what they do.

C'mon, man. You started the thread decrying how physicians aren't fairly compensated, and how the culture of medicine is so toxic. You can't pretend now that you're just "surprised some tech jobs pay what they do."

If you're getting paid $300k, nobody is being stingy, and you can deal with a little bit of attitude. Either find a way to be happy in this field, or leave it, but all this whining about your well-paying job is why our patients think that doctors are all greedy bastards.

 

[RangerBob]

300k in PM&R (my field as well) is well above average if you're only working M-F 8-2 (does that include documentation?). In fact, it's above average salary for the field in general. That's a pretty ridiculous gig... I would love to have that.

My sister is a teacher. She doesn't make $80k. She and her husband struggle to afford a condo. We can afford my wife to stay at home, despite having over $300k in debt and living in an area with homes that average $700k.

My sister does get good benefits though--I agree on that.

Tech jobs that pay well often are in areas with homes that cost well over $1 million (I know--I grew up in the Bay Area and my plain-looking childhood home is worth $1.8 million). Plus they come with miserable hours--there's a reason these companies have gyms, coffeehouses, etc.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

This thread has nothing to do with residency training; Moving to TIH.

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

People squabbling in this thread are missing the forest through the trees: medicine is in decline and software isn't.

Medical care is paid for through taxes, government debt, and insurance premiums. People notice all of that and don't like it -- that's why there's pressure to reduce healthcare spending.

Software is paid for voluntarily or through advertising. People either think the software is worth paying for or are wiling to sell their data for it. There's no public animosity about software spending.

 

[PieOHmy]

Right - but in the tech sector companies are very GENEROUS with their pay AND benefits. Why such different cultures?

Because retaining talent is important to tech.. The minute you do anything wrong to a techie.. He is outta there. Hospitals know they have a captive audience

 

[dpmd]

I don't understand your complaint or how you are making your salary assumptions. Electical engineer average salary is 74k and bumps to 83k mid career. Software engineer has similar numbers. So you are comparing low end physician numbers with the very few high numbers for those fields. It makes no sense.

 

[dpmd]

I'm not complaining about my job - I was making about 300k.
I'm just surprised that some tech jobs pay what they do.

Then why did you leave it for more training?

 

[dpmd]

Because I have always wanted to do pain - it's something that I enjoy significantly, and that gives me more optionality - my area is very saturated. Yes I landed a good gig, but there aren't a ton of good gigs in the area. I wanted to be close to my parents and my parents are adamantly against moving anywhere else so it is what it is. Family is very important to me, and while I like Chicagoland I would see myself living somewhere else under normal cirumstances - except for the fact again that my parents are there and are unwilling to move. So obviously I have to work in the area which again is saturated. Pain is not only something I enjoy but something that provides options for the future - plenty of pain jobs locally.

So geographical constraints limited you and made youndissatisfied with your field, when those same constraints would likely hose you in a number of other fields. Kinda sounds like poorly thought out sour grapes.

 

[AMEHigh]

Yes I am aware that no one is "forcing me" to do anything.
I disagree with the teachers thing - in Chicago (I work in burbs here) teachers make close to 80k with fantastic benefits, and only work 9 months. So not too shabby. PhDs can do very well - aka my husband is a great example. Sure if you get a PhD in art history you'll end up working at Starbucks but a STEM PhD is very profitable in industry. Lawyers make bank - the lawyer I'm currently working with to figure some stuff out charges like $300 bucks an hour. Not shabby.

I was just pointing out issues in how sadly the culture in medicine is quite toxic. That is all.

Ok you can disagree all you want. Just because you know a teacher that makes 80k so what? The national average is 60k. It doesn’t matter that your lawyer makes 300 an hour. The average lawyer salary is lower than ours also and talk about the possibility to be in a toxic environment. Most professionals these days work at night, weekends, etc. There are going to be outliers in every career but averages show a better picture.

My SO is a musician and he makes more money than me. However I know that is not the norm for most musicians as some are begging on the street. So I’m not over here complaining about our salaries vs musicians from this one anecdote.

It’s all about the free market, of course for profit businesses are going to have perks that others don’t. Teachers, government workers, professors, etc also aren’t getting free lunch everyday and free taxi rides home at night. Unless you don’t take insurance our salary is dictated by insurance rates. The government and insurance companies aren’t going to pay our golf range fees to golf in the middle of the day. You’re acting like doctors are the only professionals who have "measly" salaries and no free gym membership.

In m opinion extra special perks does not equal a toxic environment. Give me my paycheck on time, my vacation time and reimburse my CME like you said you would and I’m happy. There’s nothing toxic about that, it’s called working. If you truly are in a toxic environment then that really sucks and I hope you can find a new job.

 

[PieOHmy]

So you are saying that retaining physicians is not important to hospitals - there are far less physicians than there are software engineers/techies, which are a dime a dozen.

So more to the point then. Not to mention taht you can have a software engineer in 4 years, vs. 12+ for physicians?

There are far more places for techies to work than a pediatric neurosurgeon or a cardiac surgeon..

 

[dpmd]

Not following? "Geographical constraints" don't always occur - example again my spouse works from home for a finance company on the east coast. As physicians we have limitations on a number of things. And yes I will make sacrifices for family - that's very important. But you are wrong on the statement that those constraints would happen in a number of other fields. If I was an engineer/in finance there would be plenty of jobs to pick from - literally hundreds.

Did I say all fields? No. Did I say that you wouldn't be able to find a finance or engineering job in Chicago? No. However average finance jobs in Chicago have a 64k salary and engineering jobs have a 60 to 80k salary so again you would have been worse off with those. You can keep telling yourself you would have gotten one of the outlier jobs but with geographical constraints and your stated desire to have good hours and family time I am guessing you wouldn't have been the top pick for those even if they allow telecommuting. So again, what is your actual complaint?

 

[dpmd]

Is it just that your ****ty job you decided to settle for is ****ty? Ok then sorry you picked an overly saturated field for the area you want to live and are therefore pursuing training you hate for a job you don't like. If your spouse is making these mythical finance big dollars and where you live is so easily affordable on a small salary then why don't you just live off their big bucks and find something enjoyable to do with your life?

 

[dpmd]

true but there are also far less pediatric neurosurgeons or cardiac surgeons than techies- if a company doesn't like a techie they can be replaced next day = of the above, likely years if ever

But a hospital can function without the super specialized people. No pediatric neurosurgeon and they can't find a new one, oh well no more pediatric neurosurgery at this place, they have to go down the road. Same for cardiac surgeons. But it doesn't really take years to replace docs. You can just offer a big salary guarantee and some new grad will snap it up.

 

[Waraba]

Tell that to the 15 physicians fired in lieu of NPs at Elmhurst.

Noted. But the number of layoffs in the software industry, not to mention the rest of tech, dwarfs this kind of number.

 

[dpmd]

Noted. But the number of layoffs in the software industry, not to mention the rest of tech, dwarfs this kind of number.

Exactly. Also the facility is working on helping the involved docs get alternate placement.

 

[PieOHmy]

But a hospital can function without the super specialized people. No pediatric neurosurgeon and they can't find a new one, oh well no more pediatric neurosurgery at this place, they have to go down the road. Same for cardiac surgeons. But it doesn't really take years to replace docs. You can just offer a big salary guarantee and some new grad will snap it up.

I just pediatric neurosurgery as an example..
My point was that if a pediatric neurosurgeon, Neurosurgeon, cardiac surgeon, Interventionalists has a falling out with their employer they dont have as many options as you think....

If youre only cardiac surgeon leaves and you dont do any cardiac surgeries for 3-6 months.. Guess what? Your hospital MAY close. Thats how lucrative it is for the hospital.
And your assertion that it doesnt take years to replace docs does not hold water. I know a few places who have been looking for urologists for 5-7 years..
And you cannot offer more than mgma within reason to recruit physicians otherwise the hospital will get in trouble for inducing referrals.

 

[dpmd]

I just pediatric neurosurgery as an example..
My point was that if a pediatric neurosurgeon, Neurosurgeon, cardiac surgeon, Interventionalists has a falling out with their employer they dont have as many options as you think....

If youre only cardiac surgeon leaves and you dont do any cardiac surgeries for 3-6 months.. Guess what? Your hospital MAY close. Thats how lucrative it is for the hospital.
And your assertion that it doesnt take years to replace docs does not hold water. I know a few places who have been looking for urologists for 5-7 years..
And you cannot offer more than mgma within reason to recruit physicians otherwise the hospital will get in trouble for inducing referrals.

So if a specialist leaves the hospital may close after a few months without them, but you know of places that have been trying unsuccessfully to recruit a specialist for 5 to 7 yrs without having to close. Hmm...

There are more ways to recruit a doc than directly employing them (in my state only government hospitals can directly employ docs so the others have to have roundabout methods of getting docs).