Just curious to see if anyone knows this but , what can a anesthesioligist make doing private practice work as opposed to working for a hospital? Also what kind of clinics are easiest to get into , in regards to private practice.
Salaries that can be earned in Private Practice Anesthesia
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Probably about $5,000,000,000 zimbabwe a year. Minute clinics are the easiest to get into, but if a noctor is staffing it, it's the hardest to get out! (alive)
Most anesthesiologist work at a hospital. Whether they work as W2 for hospital or as fee for service is a completely different question.
As your question is a totally loaded very vague.
Incomes depend on hospital subsidies. It also depends on payor mix. If hospital or outpatient facility is running more than 40-45% Medicare or even worse Medicaid there better be some serious subsidies involved or else fee for service would be a diaster. At that point with poor payor mix, it's bedtime to take guaranteed money as W2 and make sure they pay all your benefits including tail malpractice.
As for overall income. It can range as low as $150k to as high as over 1 million depending if you own surgery center contracts/facility fee.
The key is always payor mix. Some guys I know do less than 20% Medicare and pull over $600k and work around 50-60 hours a week.
If you are into the money, don't go into medicine at all. My attorney friends and MBAs earn around $200-400k with less education and less hours work than most MDs.
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We ALL think about money at some point. I'm just as guilty as the next. Anesthesiology is awesome. No regrets. Will I make less than my Radiology, Orthopedic, and other friends, sure, but go into something that fits.
From experience, I know several people who were not happy in their respective fields. If you are unhappy...it's obvious to others, trust me. You will either get kicked out (seen it), or change fields (seen it). I've seen ENT to Family Med, Surgery to Anesthesia (a well-beaten path), Family Med to OB-GYN. Think of it; it's been done..
My point is, if you go into something for money (as previous pointed out 1 million times+), and you are not happy, it WILL catch up to you. You are the billionth person who has asked about money differences b/w private practice v hospital employee v academia. They ALL vary greatly.
Ranges for non-pain:
Academia - $150K-ish - $500K-ish (depends on experience, research, pedigree, rank)
Employee - $200K-ish - $500K-ish (depends on experience, expertise, rank...i.e. chief)
Private Practice - $200K-ish - 1 mill+ (depends on owernship, partnership, experience, nepotism, word of mouth)
All jobs in each category vary greatly. I'm in fellowship, but also work as an attending at another place on the side...yes, legally. Both jobs differ greatly. I LOVE the people I work with in my fellowship. It counts for so much...who gives a crap about price (ok, I care a little) when you have that?
From experience, I know several people who were not happy in their respective fields. If you are unhappy...it's obvious to others, trust me. You will either get kicked out (seen it), or change fields (seen it). I've seen ENT to Family Med, Surgery to Anesthesia (a well-beaten path), Family Med to OB-GYN. Think of it; it's been done..
My point is, if you go into something for money (as previous pointed out 1 million times+), and you are not happy, it WILL catch up to you. You are the billionth person who has asked about money differences b/w private practice v hospital employee v academia. They ALL vary greatly.
Ranges for non-pain:
Academia - $150K-ish - $500K-ish (depends on experience, research, pedigree, rank)
Employee - $200K-ish - $500K-ish (depends on experience, expertise, rank...i.e. chief)
Private Practice - $200K-ish - 1 mill+ (depends on owernship, partnership, experience, nepotism, word of mouth)
All jobs in each category vary greatly. I'm in fellowship, but also work as an attending at another place on the side...yes, legally. Both jobs differ greatly. I LOVE the people I work with in my fellowship. It counts for so much...who gives a crap about price (ok, I care a little) when you have that?
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everyone is making between 250-400..
10-15 percent of anesthesiologist making over 400
the market is so flat an awful right now. talk to the ca3 looking for jobs right now. Its awful job market
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Choose any career because you enjoy the work. If you look at present day anesthesia salaries with tunnel vision, you may be dissappointed in 10 years when you reach your destination to find your dream of riches vanished. Many threats to medicine these days and much uncertainty about the future.
Traditional private practice is becoming less common in all fields of medicine:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703856504575600412716683130.html?KEYWORDS=physician
Keep on reading the forum to stay informed.
Traditional private practice is becoming less common in all fields of medicine:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703856504575600412716683130.html?KEYWORDS=physician
Keep on reading the forum to stay informed.
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10-15%? I don't think so.
Define awful. Nobody I know is having trouble getting the job they want, including in "difficult" locations.
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+1.
Our fellows are being recruited all over, and I've had 2 people call me about leaving to join them in the last 6 months. Jobs are there if you've got game. As for >$400 I'd bet >20%. You can make that in some academic jobs.
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when is the last time you spoke to a recruiter? they will tell you the deal. when is the last time you looked at the locums market.. its dead. Comphealth used to have 120 locums jobs 3 years ago at this time. THey have 20 today. Kendall and davis used to have 7 pages of perm jobs, today they have 1. Anesthesia used to be a recruiters dream, not its quite the opposite. DOnt believe me. Just call a recruiter and talk to them
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as an intermediate level resident, I gotta say that the CA-3's last year at my program really had a much tougher time finding work than they expected. Yeah, they all found it, but for many it was a compromise from what they had wanted in salary/schedule/location. those who wanted jobs in saturated markets (SanFran, NY, etc) had it the worst, but it was tough all over.
And this is coming from a program with a great reputation, where historically jobs get thrown at graduates.
its tough out there right now. I hope this changes soon..
And this is coming from a program with a great reputation, where historically jobs get thrown at graduates.
its tough out there right now. I hope this changes soon..
D
deleted126335
It will change. It will get worse before it gets better.
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My buddies are all looking at jobs right now. My previous upperclassmen (who are fellows or out in practice) had no trouble, and are having no trouble landing sweet gigs. One in particular landed a 90th+ % job with a short partnership track in a major metro area. I'm not saying things are really easy, but I don't think they are really really hard yet. The class of 2011 (fellow class of 2012) shouldn't have much trouble. The graduating class of 2014? 2015? That's where we start to run into serious trouble.
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It really depends on what the new Senate/House combo does with the Obamacare situation. If we go down the Socialist route the salaries/job market will get worse. If we go back to the previous model, the job market/salaries will still be worse off, but much less so....in my opinion.
Partnership tracks that are less than 3 yrs are getting very slim from what I've seen. Also, if the partnership track is 1 yr there might be a reason...i.e. maybe you should think twice to take that job.
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Hey, stop that!!!!!
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I will be in the class of 2015. I have my dream locations where I'd like to live, but in the end I'll go wherever I can find a decent job. I'm hoping that being flexible will yield some good job offers.
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Where in academics is anyone making 400k? I want a job haha
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You can make $400 in academics. Look at strong programs in second tier cities.
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Hey IlD!
Curious, what would you consider second tier cities, or strong programs within? Is the logic that they'll pay more because few want to live there?
I'd love an example, maybe one of these cities in each corner of the country...?
THANKS!
D712
Curious, what would you consider second tier cities, or strong programs within? Is the logic that they'll pay more because few want to live there?
I'd love an example, maybe one of these cities in each corner of the country...?
THANKS!
D712
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well thats just it probably... not in any corners but right smack in the middle.
Arch Guillotti
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I don't believe you can make 400 in academics, at least starting out.
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well thats just it probably... not in any corners but right smack in the middle.
Ha Amyl,
Northern Maine, Montana (kind of a corner?), Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Louisiana, Michigan... are these states that possess some academic centers in 2nd tier cities like IlD mentions...? They're certainly not smack middle of America.
I mean, I get in, NY/LA/Miami/Chicago, not going to happen...I just wonder if that rules out a cool locale like Colorado or wherever POD posts pictures from in Montana. If there were an academic center in places like this (i.e. state med schools) I could totally picture working in a place like that...actually, sounds better than the cities I've lived in my whole life: NY and LA!! 100 Miles East of Seattle, places like that...
I'm ready for less commute or hustle bustle time during days and weekend so I can spend time doing things I want. Like studying for exams for next 8 years.
D712
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Board certified fellowship trained anesthesiologists can make over 400k in academics as an assistant professor. I know this to be correct.
There are also many in the high 3s. I am referring to salary+bonus+call compensation. I don't know if their salaries are confidential or not so I will not make a list. Ours are explicitly confidential. If you PM me, I'll give you an example from one program that seemed very upfront and open about compensation.
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Board certified fellowship trained anesthesiologists can make over 400k in academics as an assistant professor. I know this to be correct.
Thanks for the clarification and therein lies the difference.
Most of the ones scattered around gaswork seem to be 250-300K.
The best jobs are never on gas work. None of the great private jobs are ever advertised on gas work. They don't have to.
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try 220-240K
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gaswork is awful. i'm only a med student, but even people that are MS3's and MS4's applying for anesthesia know that is the last place to look for a job.
I know for a fact that at illinois masonic, the attendings make 400k, and many of them practice pain or work at other hospitals aside from that. On the other hand, At cook and northwestern they are paid peanuts. the starting salary for an anesthesia attending at northwestern is in the 225 range i believe.
I know for a fact that at illinois masonic, the attendings make 400k, and many of them practice pain or work at other hospitals aside from that. On the other hand, At cook and northwestern they are paid peanuts. the starting salary for an anesthesia attending at northwestern is in the 225 range i believe.
The bigger the name in academics, the less money you are getting paid to work there. It's a near universal truth in academic medicine.
I got job offers in private practice that were more than triple the $$$ I got offered in academics.
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is this because at big name places like Northwestern, etc; the attendings work less and the residents/crna's do more work? so less money bc of less work/cushier lifestyle? i can't see any other motivation for doing academics, unless someone has a huge interest in research.
i rotated at stroger and the attendings were pretty much done by 2pm every day. In my father's practice this would be a nearly impossible task...
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Gaswork isn't awful. A lot of the jobs are awful, but at least they aren't kept secret like the majority of anesthesia jobs. Unfortunately, in the real world, you have to look for jobs somewhere and you can't just decide to magically know about the good jobs, and no one is going to tell you about them either.
Illinois Masonic will probably get 100 applications this week.
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No offense, but you are still a med stud and have not gone through the process yet and I would take this post with a huge grain of salt.
There is obviously a lot of garbage on gaswork but there are also some decent jobs on there as well. I would think that directly starting with a recruiter would be FAR worse than carefully sifting through gaswork jobs.
I don't think you know anything for a fact unless you have seen someones contract or better yet their tax return. Please correct me if I am wrong.
400k is a number that people seem to like to toss around. 400k to me is base salary, not including overtime, crappy extra calls, weekends or whatever. And I would want to know what benefits such as retirement are included in this magical 400k.
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There's no secret. Why advertise a job when you get enough quality applicants by word of mouth and recruiting from top quality programs. The way to find a good job is to call yourself and talk to the managing partner, or whoever is in charge of hiring. If you have a lead from your residency network call them, otherwise cold call and leave a message and send a CV. If they're hiring, they'll call back. Call all the anesthesia departments/groups in the area where you want to work, some may overlap with the same group. If you survive the telephone screening and you are both interested it's time to talk turkey. I wasn't traveling anywhere for an interview w/o some broad strokes on $$, vaca, track, etc. If they are serious, even if "confidential" they will give you a ballpark on the take, if they won't, I see that as a huge red flag. If the loot is not what you want, don't interview, and keep calling around. They don't want to waste time and money interviewing a $380k minimum guy for a $280 job. From my experience, the academic jobs were pretty specific, the PP jobs were vague until after they meet you in person, but they will ballpark. They do have to worry about competition.
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Hi. no offense taken.
I never said there weren't any good jobs on gaswork - I just think it sucks because of the huge amount of recruiters and bogus slaveworker jobs on there. My dad has tried to recruit using it in the past and was basically spammed by recruitment companies, people that weren't board certified, and a lot of riffraff in general, and of course also some great applicants.
You're right, i haven't seen anybody's contract, but i've grown up around the anesthesia private practice business. my Dad owns and runs a relatively large practice in Indiana and Illinois. Collectively he and his partners are either graduates from, have had job offers from, or recruit from the programs and salaries i speak of. My cousin is an attending at northwestern and my Uncle is one at Masonic, so i'm not talking just to talk..
400k as a base salary is fantastic. I'm assuming thats a contractor style job because it's pretty tough to start at 400 with benefits and retirement, unless you're willing to work in a less desirable area. But then again, i won't speak on that, bc i don't know your set up. I do however know about the programs i commented on.
I know where med students sit in the pecking order and i don't comment on anything unless i know what i'm talking about.
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I know where you're coming from. As another poster commented, I think a lot of private practice groups recruit through word of mouth.
I know that some groups contact program directors they may know themselves and ask for information about who the best new grads are, etc, but it all depends on the market, also, depends on if you want to stay local to where you trained or if you are wanting to move out of state, etc.
in masonic's case, they recruited their program director, most of the anesthesia attendings, and their pain guys from other hospitals. I think most of their program consists of guys they recruited from cook and loyola .
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The crap jobs are the ones recruiters have available. If a group/hospital feels the need to use a recruiter, you should be asking why. Recruiters charge big $$$. In this economy, what group wants to waste their money paying those fees?
Absolutely 100% correct. And the best jobs are never handled by recruiters.
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We made the mistake of trying gaswork a few years ago when we needed to hire a bunch of anesthetists due to expansion. Almost all our calls were from 1) recruiters or 2) PIA CRNA's used it to bitch at us about hiring AA's. We dropped the ad in less than a month.
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In many practices, you use recruiters, you can kiss your sign on bonus goodbye. That meant 55K to me when I joined my current practice. As IlDestriero said, if you don't know anyone in a particular practice, pick up the phone, be a normal person and take it from there.
What does a recruiter truly do for you that you can't do yourself?
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the Boston programs will start you at about 175-180k (205k w/ fellowship) per year for 4 days a week of work and 1-2 calls per month.... if you bust your ass (take a lot of extra call and work the 5th day), generate tons of research and assume more responsibilities you could see about 350k/yr... that's academia for you... in an expensive city...
no thanks
no thanks
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Hello,
That is what they were offering us in Los Angeles when an academic institution took over our hospital. I think one of our people tried it for a while, but eventually got fed up and left.
At the present time several friends of mine are looking for jobs, with mixed results. I guess if you are willing to do cardiac and OB you may have an easier time finding a position. At least that is what my friends are finding out.
As some people told you above, in private practice everything depends on the payor mix. Some do very well, some don't.
The other issue is that some of our own colleagues with spirit of entrepreneurship are contracting with hospitals, offering them a "full package" and hiring anesthesiologists, making them work very hard for very little money: beware of those.
Greetings
That is what they were offering us in Los Angeles when an academic institution took over our hospital. I think one of our people tried it for a while, but eventually got fed up and left.
At the present time several friends of mine are looking for jobs, with mixed results. I guess if you are willing to do cardiac and OB you may have an easier time finding a position. At least that is what my friends are finding out.
As some people told you above, in private practice everything depends on the payor mix. Some do very well, some don't.
The other issue is that some of our own colleagues with spirit of entrepreneurship are contracting with hospitals, offering them a "full package" and hiring anesthesiologists, making them work very hard for very little money: beware of those.
Greetings
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D
deleted50478
Goodbye,
You end every post with 'greetings'. Are you ESL or really odd or both?
Don't get me wrong, I think your responses are good, just tacking greetings to the end is kinda weird. At best, it belongs at the start of your posts.
Hello.
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Of course you are right on the first, but you may be right on the second count as well.
I guess you only like the first meanings of the words in the dictionary. "Greetings" is defined also as a synonym of "regards," but probably sounds weird because it is less common to see it used like that. I have seen letters that end by saying "greet so and so..." I didn't realize it would sound so strange.
I will try to remember and not use it that way. Thank you for pointing it out. I really appreciate it!
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Sergio, fwiw I've never thought anything odd about using "greetings" to close a response. it functions, like you said, the same as "regards" or "cheers". Both of those usages have similar Old World phrases like, "mit freundlichen grussen" (which basically means, "with friendly greetings" in German) or "salut"..
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dude, check out the private forum..we have a more indepth job discussion there..
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I cant join the private forum cuz im not a member of the asa. How about if the aba id number is given.. is that enough to join.
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You'd have to run that by archgiullotti (mod) or sleepisgood
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I do not take part in many discussions in this forum, but do follow many of then closely.
In my experience, based on my own practice and those of my colleagues at various practices with whom I went through residency with and still keep in touch; the best jobs are not advertised. As has been mentioned above, there's no need to advertise them. Often, the groups making higher than average incomes will seek YOU out as was my case. But you do have to let them know of your availability. I first contacted the group I'm with during the first half of my CA 2 year and maintained contact with them via a phone call every couple of months (sometimes they'd call me, or if it had been awhile, I'd call them to update them). Kept it professional at first, but naturally as they got to know me the conversations became more casual. A year later they offered me a job, just before Christmas of my chief year and gave me a sign on bonus (a GREAT Christmas that year! paid off credit card and then bought presents for everyone with cash).
Now; academics vs private P... the name of the game is proportionality meets liberty. Face it, any where you go there will be politics. However, I feel a physician has greater influence in the game in private practice than in academics. When a hospital controls your salary, they have the upper hand in the game. When you collect your own billing and perform anesthetic services based on contract with the hospital, and work your arse off in an effort to earn the hospital (and yourself) more income, YOU have the upper hand (the OR is usually the highest revenue generation point in the hospital, USUALLY). And therein lies the element of proportionality. I feel I work much more than my colleagues who remained in the academic setting. But I also earn more than twice as much.
In my group (8 anesthesiologists covering 3 hospitals, 1 labor/delivery center and 3 surgery centers, no pain management aside from blocks and epidurals for post op pain) only two partners can be off at a time for vacation (aside from holidays when only the call person is on), and call averages out to roughly Q 4 nights, above this you get bonus pay for call. We collect our own billing in addition to managing and billing for a group of CRNAs we hire. A typical day starts at 0700 (sometimes 0600) and finishes up at 1800-1900. In our group, yearly income varies between 750k-850k plus bonuses. It's a good living, but I'll be the first to admit it's not for everyone. I personally love getting up in the morning and heading into work. Love the job, the atmosphere, and the colleagues I work with. Usually take 8-10 weeks vacation a year. By comparison, before leaving residency I was offered a position starting off at 250K, with 9 weeks vacation a year. Call was 2-3 per month and often attendings were heading home at around 3pm-4pm if not on call.
In my experience, based on my own practice and those of my colleagues at various practices with whom I went through residency with and still keep in touch; the best jobs are not advertised. As has been mentioned above, there's no need to advertise them. Often, the groups making higher than average incomes will seek YOU out as was my case. But you do have to let them know of your availability. I first contacted the group I'm with during the first half of my CA 2 year and maintained contact with them via a phone call every couple of months (sometimes they'd call me, or if it had been awhile, I'd call them to update them). Kept it professional at first, but naturally as they got to know me the conversations became more casual. A year later they offered me a job, just before Christmas of my chief year and gave me a sign on bonus (a GREAT Christmas that year! paid off credit card and then bought presents for everyone with cash).
Now; academics vs private P... the name of the game is proportionality meets liberty. Face it, any where you go there will be politics. However, I feel a physician has greater influence in the game in private practice than in academics. When a hospital controls your salary, they have the upper hand in the game. When you collect your own billing and perform anesthetic services based on contract with the hospital, and work your arse off in an effort to earn the hospital (and yourself) more income, YOU have the upper hand (the OR is usually the highest revenue generation point in the hospital, USUALLY). And therein lies the element of proportionality. I feel I work much more than my colleagues who remained in the academic setting. But I also earn more than twice as much.
In my group (8 anesthesiologists covering 3 hospitals, 1 labor/delivery center and 3 surgery centers, no pain management aside from blocks and epidurals for post op pain) only two partners can be off at a time for vacation (aside from holidays when only the call person is on), and call averages out to roughly Q 4 nights, above this you get bonus pay for call. We collect our own billing in addition to managing and billing for a group of CRNAs we hire. A typical day starts at 0700 (sometimes 0600) and finishes up at 1800-1900. In our group, yearly income varies between 750k-850k plus bonuses. It's a good living, but I'll be the first to admit it's not for everyone. I personally love getting up in the morning and heading into work. Love the job, the atmosphere, and the colleagues I work with. Usually take 8-10 weeks vacation a year. By comparison, before leaving residency I was offered a position starting off at 250K, with 9 weeks vacation a year. Call was 2-3 per month and often attendings were heading home at around 3pm-4pm if not on call.
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Shadowfax: just curious; how do you cover three hospitals and a labor center with just 8 docs at q4 call. It would seem that you would need q2 call to staff it all.
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All 3 hospitals are in the same healthcare system and thus function as one multicampus hospital. We do have a 3rd doc on what we call "suicide" call just in case all three sites have urgent/emergent procedures pending. We've been operating with this call format for 6 years and have never used the "suicide" call doc. So if you figure this third position into the mix then you're right it's Q2 and at times Q1. But it's really not that bad. Each doc is not assigned to a particular hospital. It's first, second, then suicide. Second call may get called out once in a blue moon, first call can be pretty brutal, but I've had many first calls where I did nothing after 1800.
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May I ask...what region of the country is this? And...is it BFE or just a small city? Sounds sweet but just barely at my call threshold.
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We're in the southcentral US. College town just outside large city, metropolitan population of 2 million. Great football, basketball, and hockey teams! Primary industries include energy, tech, medical research, and national defense.
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