Salaries

[Azawakh]

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Why are veterinarians who are actually in practice so tight lipped about their salaries? Can people try and get qoutes from DVM's in practice and post them here? (i.e General Practice, 4 yrs. 80K)

Thanks

 

[Bill59]

What would be the point of that? If you want to find out what veterinarians make in various types of practice, the AVMA publishes surveys on this about once a year. That would be a lot more accurate than random, isolated salaries of individuals.

 

[kate_g]

Why are veterinarians who are actually in practice so tight lipped about their salaries?

1. Do you really want to end up negotiating with your clients over how much money you deserve to make? "You made $80K last year?! I only make $50K, and my dog is really sick. Can't you just make $79K this year, which is still way more than me and really plenty for any reasonable person to live on, and do my dog's treatment for free?"

2. Just business. I have second-hand experience in the business world via my SO, and *everyone* is tight-lipped about money. What your salary is, how much stock you have, what you got for this year's bonus. Because all of those things reflect the management's estimation of how worthwhile you are, you don't discuss the numbers with colleagues. What if they got a lot less? What if they got more?? It's just considered impolite in the corporate culture. I imagine there are similar issues in large multi-vet practices.

 

[bkpa2med]

Vet's make alot of money. I know everytime I bring my dog in for checkups and such the bill is over $100. And, mind you it's only for like 10-15 minutes.

 

[Azawakh]

I don't want to know what the average salary posted by the AVMA is with all the interns and residents "salaries" bound up in the average. I'm curious as to what individual salaries are like I said.

 

[MissBehavior]

Vet's make alot of money. I know everytime I bring my dog in for checkups and such the bill is over $100. And, mind you it's only for like 10-15 minutes.

You might want to check out the "ummm...am I getting ripped off?" thread if you think your vet is taking home anywhere close to that amount (using these figures, $400 an hour X a 40 hour work week = over $800,000 a year 😱 ). I wish it were true, but about a tenth of that would probably be more realistic.

 

[HorseyVet]

Vet's make alot of money. I know everytime I bring my dog in for checkups and such the bill is over $100. And, mind you it's only for like 10-15 minutes.

Did you *buy* anything??.... b/c you know buying things costs money. A check up may be anywhere from 25-50 bucks depending on the situation. 6 months of heartworm can be 50 bucks alone + however much your flea/tick preventative is. Did you have some stinky ears or watery eyes...they may have given you something for that (or cleaned them there, which is an additional serive depending on the severity). Did you get your nails clliped? Some charge 5-10 bucks for that, especially if you're dog isn't so chipper to have it done.

I really think you should read some of the other posts here before posting your opinion about what vets make.

 

[SRK85]

Did you *buy* anything??.... b/c you know buying things costs money. A check up may be anywhere from 25-50 bucks depending on the situation. 6 months of heartworm can be 50 bucks alone + however much your flea/tick preventative is. Did you have some stinky ears or watery eyes...they may have given you something for that (or cleaned them there, which is an additional serive depending on the severity). Did you get your nails clliped? Some charge 5-10 bucks for that, especially if you're dog isn't so chipper to have it done.

I really think you should read some of the other posts here before posting your opinion about what vets make.

Yea usually a check up is roughly 20-25 dollars unless the vet gives the dog a shot that may be around 10 dollars per shot. Surgery and medications is usually where a vet probably makes the most money. Im guessing I don't know for sure.

 

[kate_g]

Surgery and medications is usually where a vet probably makes the most money.

Actually my vet says they don't make much on most medications. The prices they charge seem like a big markup over their wholesale cost, but they have to stock a whole lot of different stuff, and it's often only available from the supplier in fairly large quantity. They don't go through it nearly as fast as someplace like a dedicated pharmacy, so they end up losing a lot to expiration. So the markup on what they do sell has to cover the losses on what they can't sell. Of course he's not going to tell me "yeah, we make a killing on that crap," so the above rationale might be somewhat biased...

Oh, and the price for an exam varies widely by location. My cat's last checkup was $65: $45 for the exam, $16 for rabies shot, $4 "biohazard fee". You *might* find a vet that does a $20 exam in this part of CA, but it wouldn't be someone I'd trust my pet to.

 

[chickenlittle]

I agree that this is useless, but... since you asked...

1st year veterinarian. $45k salary, plus bonuses (expected total pay for the year around $55k)

As for $100 vet visits, I just wanted to point out that unless you're seeing the practice owner, most of that money isn't going to the actual vet who does your pet's work. An average associate veterinarian would receive about $20 of that money... which probably isn't much, given the amount of time that they spend with you! The rest of that money is going towards paying for supplies, paying the overhead to keep the clinic running, paying technicians and receptionists, and making the owner a little bit of a profit. If a vet spends 15 minutes in the room with you, they're probably spending an additional 10 minutes writing up your record, looking at lab samples, etc etc. So they make $20 for roughly 1/2 an hour of their time... knowing that the next 30-minute appointment could be an animal who just needs an exam (making the doctor $5-10) and no additional services/products... it all evens out. None of us are in this to get rich.

 

[pavel rudja]

... it all evens out. None of us are in this to get rich.[/QUOTE] So not to be rude.. but how much roughly a year are vets being payed?

 

[Inkabellous]

~$55K for the first year sounds really discouraging. Why is the salary so low? I mean, it is difficult to get into a Vet school. Once accepted, one has to take out a huge amount of loan to pay for books/housing, tuition fees, and other living expenses. $55K/year is quite low compared to all the money spent on getting the degree, don't you think? I can't imagine how long it would take a new vet to pay off all the loans. At least the starting salary should be around $90K, IMO.

 

[birdvet2006]

~$55K for the first year sounds really discouraging. Why is the salary so low? I mean, it is difficult to get into a Vet school. Once accepted, one has to take out a huge amount of loan to pay for books/housing, tuition fees, and other living expenses. $55K/year is quite low compared to all the money spent on getting the degree, don't you think? I can't imagine how long it would take a new vet to pay off all the loans. At least the starting salary should be around $90K, IMO.

The salary is so low because people are not willing or able to pay big money for their animals' veterinary care! People are complaining *all the time* about our fees. Yet here I am making barely minimum wage as a veterinary intern ($30k). I don't even earn production and people are calling me money-thieving and such. How terrible is that? Not to mention that I'm postponing my loan payments ($200k and accruing interest).

No surprise - people don't know how much it costs to run a vet hospital or even a human hospital.

 

[Inkabellous]

Wow...I sure hope it goes up. By the way, is veterinary intern = medical resident?

 

[birdvet2006]

Wow...I sure hope it goes up. By the way, is veterinary intern = medical resident?

I don't know the medical system all that well. But a veterinary intern = formal programme you elect to enter your first year after graduation. Not required - most people do not do internships, they just go straight into practice. But if you want to do a residency (to become board certified in something), internships are the way to go.

 

[guarana]

wow....
as someone in medical school looking at residency and afterward (and a similar debt burden!) i feel for you guys. i love veterinarians, and think it shows how dedicated you are considering how hard it is to get where you are in the first place....it's too bad most pets don't carry health insurance like their owners!!

 

[CanadianDVM]

wow....
as someone in medical school looking at residency and afterward (and a similar debt burden!) i feel for you guys. i love veterinarians, and think it shows how dedicated you are considering how hard it is to get where you are in the first place....it's too bad most pets don't carry health insurance like their owners!!

I think it may show how ******ed we are more so than our dedication..............

 

[Bill59]

Wow...I sure hope it goes up. By the way, is veterinary intern = medical resident?

Sort of, but it's more like the old rotating internships that MDs used to do. Most veterinary interns rotate among various services within a larger discipline. For example, small animal interns rotate through surgery, medicine and other specialties like neurology, cardiology and radiology. Large animals interns rotate through large animal medicine, LA surgery, etc.

On the other hand, veterinary residents spend most of their time within the specialty, for example radiology.

But there are getting to be more and more specialty internships, such as surgery internships where you spend most of your time in surgery. These are people that have already finished a rotating internship and are considering or trying to get a residency.

 

[pathognomonic]

I graduated in 2000.

First year out (mixed animal) - 50K. I couldn't make ends meet. My student loan payment was so high that all I could afford to live in was a terrible apartment for $375/month. I didn't have a car - drove the practice truck. I was more broke than I was in vet school.

Next five years - military. Good pay.

Been out six years. Small animal - 85K. I can pay the bills now, but only because I'm married. My school loans should be paid off by the time I'm 55. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't do it in a million years.

 

[ReinaDeLuz]

I graduated in 2000.

First year out (mixed animal) - 50K. I couldn't make ends meet. My student loan payment was so high that all I could afford to live in was a terrible apartment for $375/month. I didn't have a car - drove the practice truck. I was more broke than I was in vet school.

Next five years - military. Good pay.

Been out six years. Small animal - 85K. I can pay the bills now, but only because I'm married. My school loans should be paid off by the time I'm 55. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't do it in a million years.

well thats depressing! is it just the paying off of school loans or do you hate veterinary medicine now that your in the "real world" so to speak? Ive known vets that lived hand to mouth, lived in crappy houses/apartments, had cars that were trashier than MINE (and i was like 17) and yet they still LOVED life and loved their job. I know its going to be tough when I get out with the uberdebt, but what keeps me here is knowing I'm going to love it. Just wondering what went wrong with you?

 

[AuburnPreVet]

I hope pathog will elaborate for us. I honestly don't think his/her situation is the norm, but maybe I'm in for a rude awakening. Of coarse, paying the debt and making $50-60K when coming out is not a walk in the park - however I was under the impression that if the loan payments were over a certain % of your salary you could negotiate or refinance over an extended period...in which case interest will still pile up and it would take longer to pay back - but you wouldn't have to eat ramen noodles BID. I guess we'll see...

 

[pathognomonic]

I don't mean to give the wrong impression. I like what I do for a living. I only get bitter when I have clients complaining about how I'm getting rich off of them. It's just that it is discouraging to go through undergrad and vet school and bust my buns now that I'm out and know that I will not be able to pay for my son to go to college so that he won't have loans like me. I will be able to retire eventually if I invest wisely. My loan payments have already been extended out over a thirty year period and consolidated to 4.75%. Guess what - my monthly payment is still $1500/month or 34% of my monthly pay. Try to get a mortgage with that! Banks say that your total debt to income ratio including student loans should be less than 33% (that's student loans, vehicle loans, credit cards, everything) to approve you for a mortgage.

If you can get through undergrad and vet school owing less that 50K, or let Mommy and Daddy or Uncle Sam pay for it then it is a great career, but otherwise, not only will you not get rich, you'll barely be middle class (and then only in a dual income situation). As long as you go into it with your eyes open, you'll be happy with the choices you make.

 

[lazyjayn]

ok, - this is not meant as an attack, just long, and pointing out the options.

I think it depends on your idea of "living" once you graduate. Some people (not saying anyone on this board) think that once they graduate they deserve a car, and a nice cell phone, and cable, and an appartment they don't share with 3 strangers.

Someone going straight into practice for 50k a year should take home about $41,850 after federal taxes, and that's not even looking at the interest deduction, or anything. lose maybe another 5 or 8% for state, and that's still pretty good. But let's assume this theoretical "new vet" is smart, and moves to a state without state income tax. And there are several. so that $41,850 works out to about $3500 a month. $200- 400 for health insurance, unless it's super cheap for vets, and I don't know about it, and you still got... oh, $3100 a month.

The loan calculator at http://www.finaid.org/ tells me that with a loan of $200k @ 8.2% (which will hopefully not happen, but...) the minimum payment for a 15 year loan is $1,934. I can see how that might cause problems, most people can't figure out how to live on $1100 a month, and some landlords won't look at you, so let's push it out to a 30 year loan, shall we?

Over 30 years, the payment drops to $1495 a month. Of course, this assumes you'll never get a raise, and just keep paying the minumum the rest of your natural life.

But still, with $1600 a month, you can live a pretty decent life. You won't be buying your own practice right out of school, but you shouldn't be eating ramen, either- unless you like it or want to make extra payments on your loans.

But let's say you wanted to set up your life somewhere interesting. Simple enough. How about Portland, OR? nice place, easy going, good public transport, which should lower your need for a car- saving $$$. House shares run anywhere from 250-600 dollars a month. so say you pick a place in the middle- about 450, including utilities. That leaves you $1150 a month if you took the long way, and about $650 if you're working with the 15 year loan.

Are any of you honestly going to tell me that, super students that you are, you couldn't live an OK life on $650 a month? Sure, you won't be spawning alone on that, but hopefully if you should sprout a miniature, you'll have either a partner, or support from the deadbeat (mother or father).

Would I *like* to be able to expect the kinda money first year people doctors make? sure, wouldn't everyone? Does it kinda piss me off that the education to get the job is more than 4 years straight income? sure it does. But that doesn't mean that I'm gonna jump up and buy some flash car like my father drives when I graduate, just because I'll have a job. Hell, I have a job now. It just costs more than it earns me. So to make up for that, I have no problem continuing to live like a "student" untill my loans are paid off. I don't *need* a whole house or appartment to myself. I don't need to eat out, or have a fancy car, or, if I'm careful in my flat-hunting, any car at all. Pretty big portion of the country doesn't even make as much before taxes as we're talking about having left over after paying loans each month. You just gotta adjust your expectations down to fit your means.

Sorry if this is long or preachy. I just hate it when people don't think about this stuff. For anyone who's interested on figuring out how to pay their loans down faster once they're out of school, or keep expenses down while in school, I suggest www.simpleliving.net

For anyone else- I dunno. I guess most of you will get out of this with less in loans than I expect to, tho maybe a few will have more? The pay isn't great, fine, but it's not total crap. You just can't go crazy. And the whole bicycle/ no car thing really impresses the crunchy outdoors types.

j.

 

[bubbles525]

Amen 😀

ok, - this is not meant as an attack, just long, and pointing out the options.

I think it depends on your idea of "living" once you graduate. Some people (not saying anyone on this board) think that once they graduate they deserve a car, and a nice cell phone, and cable, and an appartment they don't share with 3 strangers.

Someone going straight into practice for 50k a year should take home about $41,850 after federal taxes, and that's not even looking at the interest deduction, or anything. lose maybe another 5 or 8% for state, and that's still pretty good. But let's assume this theoretical "new vet" is smart, and moves to a state without state income tax. And there are several. so that $41,850 works out to about $3500 a month. $200- 400 for health insurance, unless it's super cheap for vets, and I don't know about it, and you still got... oh, $3100 a month.

The loan calculator at http://www.finaid.org/ tells me that with a loan of $200k @ 8.2% (which will hopefully not happen, but...) the minimum payment for a 15 year loan is $1,934. I can see how that might cause problems, most people can't figure out how to live on $1100 a month, and some landlords won't look at you, so let's push it out to a 30 year loan, shall we?

Over 30 years, the payment drops to $1495 a month. Of course, this assumes you'll never get a raise, and just keep paying the minumum the rest of your natural life.

But still, with $1600 a month, you can live a pretty decent life. You won't be buying your own practice right out of school, but you shouldn't be eating ramen, either- unless you like it or want to make extra payments on your loans.

But let's say you wanted to set up your life somewhere interesting. Simple enough. How about Portland, OR? nice place, easy going, good public transport, which should lower your need for a car- saving $$$. House shares run anywhere from 250-600 dollars a month. so say you pick a place in the middle- about 450, including utilities. That leaves you $1150 a month if you took the long way, and about $650 if you're working with the 15 year loan.

Are any of you honestly going to tell me that, super students that you are, you couldn't live an OK life on $650 a month? Sure, you won't be spawning alone on that, but hopefully if you should sprout a miniature, you'll have either a partner, or support from the deadbeat (mother or father).

Would I *like* to be able to expect the kinda money first year people doctors make? sure, wouldn't everyone? Does it kinda piss me off that the education to get the job is more than 4 years straight income? sure it does. But that doesn't mean that I'm gonna jump up and buy some flash car like my father drives when I graduate, just because I'll have a job. Hell, I have a job now. It just costs more than it earns me. So to make up for that, I have no problem continuing to live like a "student" untill my loans are paid off. I don't *need* a whole house or appartment to myself. I don't need to eat out, or have a fancy car, or, if I'm careful in my flat-hunting, any car at all. Pretty big portion of the country doesn't even make as much before taxes as we're talking about having left over after paying loans each month. You just gotta adjust your expectations down to fit your means.

Sorry if this is long or preachy. I just hate it when people don't think about this stuff. For anyone who's interested on figuring out how to pay their loans down faster once they're out of school, or keep expenses down while in school, I suggest www.simpleliving.net

For anyone else- I dunno. I guess most of you will get out of this with less in loans than I expect to, tho maybe a few will have more? The pay isn't great, fine, but it's not total crap. You just can't go crazy. And the whole bicycle/ no car thing really impresses the crunchy outdoors types.

j.

 

[Bill59]

Are any of you honestly going to tell me that, super students that you are, you couldn't live an OK life on $650 a month? Sure, you won't be spawning alone on that, but hopefully if you should sprout a miniature, you'll have either a partner, or support from the deadbeat (mother or father).

Wow, tough crowd. I don't think it's to much to ask to want to be able to raise a family after 7+years of school at the cost of 100 large. Most new grads are 25-30 years old so it's often unrealistic to wait another 10 years before starting a family. And a spouse that wants to stay home for at least some of that time to raise the kids hardly qualifies as a deadbeat.

But read pathognomonic's post -- what really frost him/her is doing all this and having clients complain that he/she is getting rich ripping them off. That's not an uncommon sentiment.

Of course we're not going to fix this problem here, but everyone needs a place to vent every now and then.

 

[CanadianDVM]

Are any of you honestly going to tell me that, super students that you are, you couldn't live an OK life on $650 a month? .

er..... an Ok life???? - i sure as hell wont be happy living on $650 a month, especially after giving nearly 10 years of my life to becoming a vet. In most cities you cant rent an apartment for less than 600 bucks a month, let alone eat on top of that.

I didn't become a vet to be rich, but i sure as hell didn't become one to be poor and live on 650 bucks a month.

 

[giles]

This post is a joke, right? That sort of thinking will see continued downwards pressure on veterinary earnings.

It's a very tough degree, and even tougher job once you're out in the real world that has a lot of negative aspects to it -- why would you even consider doing it for so little? It's not the (lack of) money, per se, -- it's the lack of freedom and control over your own life that it results in

ok, - this is not meant as an attack, just long, and pointing out the options.

I think it depends on your idea of "living" once you graduate. Some people (not saying anyone on this board) think that once they graduate they deserve a car, and a nice cell phone, and cable, and an appartment they don't share with 3 strangers.

snip

j.

 

[lazyjayn]

I don't know- I guess it's maybe that "stuff" doesn't make life better. Would I like to have the money all the time to jet off somewhere cool without saving first? of course I would. But since my father won't pay for my school (well, he'd pay part, but he'd expect control of my life in return), I'm not independantly wealthy, and the trust fund seems to have run out, I gotta work, and save.

I mean.. does a jag honestly make you happier than a commuter car? Other than the whole status thing? Does a huge TV make your life better? 800 channels of cable you're rarely home to watch? Does a granite countertop hold the bowls and plates better than a formica one?

I don't know, maybe I'm a freak, but I have a pretty good time hanging out in cheap bars with a bunch of regulars, cheap beer, and snacks on sunday nights, or Going for a hike, or a bike ride, or chasing (my or borrowed) dogs on the beach.

Would I like a really nice car, and a boat, and a huge TV and video game systems, and expensive nice clothes, and all that stuff that goes along with that? sure. Will I get them? Probably not. Well, except the clothes- 'cause if you know where to look, you can get some darned good stuff from the thrift shop.

I can see how people might like to have kids not long after they graduate. or while they're still in school. And I can understand wanting to stay home with the kid for a while after it's born. By deadbeat, I meant the type that ditches the kid- you know, the "do I gotta take it this weekend" type. At 27, tho, I still can't see the reason to have one, kid-free, yep, that's me, all right.

Only way to get people to stop thinking vets make/ charge "too much" is to educate them- well, or to look poor. And since education is *at least* half the client side of the job, That should fit in just fine. Will there still be people who think they're getting over charged? sure. Hell, untill I started this, and told my father how much it costs to just get the degree, then started listing costs in an office, he had no idea how expensive it was. He doesn't complain as much anymore.

Don't want to get out with a huge pile of debt? take some time off between college and vet school, live like a pauper, work some crap job that pays really really well, work crazy hours, save up enough to pay for school. The options are out there. People just don't want to look at them.

Damn, this makes me feel old.

j.

 

[pathognomonic]

IDon't want to get out with a huge pile of debt? take some time off between college and vet school, live like a pauper, work some crap job that pays really really well, work crazy hours, save up enough to pay for school. The options are out there. People just don't want to look at them.

j.

Just curious - what "crap job pays really really well" ? If I could have found it, I'd have been all over it. I can tell you from experience that milking cows, cleaning kennels, restaurants/bartending, retail, galloping racehorses, bailing hay, painting houses, McDonalds etc. barely pay you enough to live with several roommates on Ramen noodles let alone save the amounts of money required to go to vet school. The only jobs that pay that kinda dough are drug dealing, gun running, prostitution and maybe, just maybe crab fishing in the Bering sea.

 

[lazyjayn]

Well, first off, when I say crap job I don't mean crap paying job. I mean job you'd hate to do. Most of them require some combination of people skills, sales skills, and a degree in something "practical". Some just require that you show up, have decent mechanical ability, and are willing to work all hours. Oh, and I know very few *decent* bartenders that make less that 800-1000 a week.

This whole idea- saving money- requires a few simple assumptions. The first being that people are willing to sacrifice time/ energy/ comforts while saving now, so they can have them later. The second is that they have a degree. Most decent paying jobs require one. Or some other kind of education- but I'm assuming no one here wants to learn to be an electrician. Another is that one job isn't always enough.

I lived in NYC for 2 years on about $1000 a month (no, I didn't eat ramen 3x a day). That being one of the more expensive places to live, I'm assuming a similar budget would work just about anywhere else- for 4 years, anyway.

Some job options? How about car sales? Office work? legal secretary-ing? working on an oil-rig? driving trucks at a pit mine (15-20/h, plus the bonus of generally being in really cheap places to live)? Bartending or waiting tables *plus* any of the above? Accounting? Telemarketting? Union factory work? You may have noticed that very few of these jobs have anything to do with animals. Animal jobs generally seem to pay crap. Look away from them for a couple years, tho, and you could pull down a decent salary (for a single student willing to economize) and save most of your money. even saving 15k a year is a nice chunk for school- and something you should be able to manage on 40k a year- an office job and a part time job somewhere else. Heck, you could save a decent chunk of change working on an advanced degree with an assistanceship, living as an RA- tho some schools won't allow that.

People can put up with just about anything for 3 or 4 years.

For those who still have the choice, it makes sense. And they get *real life* skills that you don't usually run into at school. of course, it's possible that it looks like too much work- and it probably is. But suffer earlier or later.

Of course, they could always wait untill they graduate, and sell their souls to the poultry industry for 3 or 4 or 5 years.👎

But as I said somewhere waaaay up there now- the key to getting paid what you think you're worth is to educate your clients. If you own a practice you need to run it efficiently, charge appropriately- if you offer lots of discounts then people assume that you're overcharging them the rest of the time. You need business and people skills. And I don't know what everyone else is seeing, but a lot of vets/ vet students I run into don't have one of those skills- very few have both.

Gotta teach people what you're worth- just like doctors did. Might not work so well for food animal, where everything is decided on the value of the animal, but in other areas, your services are worth whatever people *think* they're worth. Even if someday it gets to the point of a *really* itemized bill- as in "$xx for 1 use out of n of x-ray machine, $xx for plate, $x for tech pay while processing plate." It doesn't occur to most people that stuff like that costs per use, or how much they cost to buy/ lease/ whatever. And *really* well run business probably has those numbers sitting around somewhere...

Hey, if people can be taught they need $2000 tv's I'm sure they can be taught the value/ real cost of decent vet care. But then, I'm feeling optimistic today.

j.

 

[MossPoh]

The most draining part for the care of my dogs is not the checkups, medications, or even the 1k surgery..the expensive part was boarding for me. To board my two dogs for 2 weeks cost us about 800 dollars.....I respect vets a lot..I dated a vet's daughter for a while....but 800 dollars for two weeks...sorry but that is ridiculous but they knew they were our only choice so they utilized it. I don't blame them for the capitalistic spirit but holy god....that is a lot of money. One of my dogs had a (fairly large) stone....that was another 900 dollars(100 dollars medications and other crap). We love the stupid dog enough to pay but damn....not like it was super stitching or anything.....just a basic surgery. For every pissy person there is another willing to fork over the money for their best friend.

 

[laurafinn]

Wow, tough crowd. I don't think it's to much to ask to want to be able to raise a family after 7+years of school at the cost of 100 large.

I have to agree. I do wonder if veterinary medicine isn't on the way to becoming a profession reserved for the financially independent, or at least those who can afford the schooling.

 

[Bill59]

....but 800 dollars for two weeks...sorry but that is ridiculous but they knew they were our only choice so they utilized it. I don't blame them for the capitalistic spirit but holy god....that is a lot of money. One of my dogs had a (fairly large) stone....that was another 900 dollars(100 dollars medications and other crap). We love the stupid dog enough to pay but damn....not like it was super stitching or anything.....just a basic surgery. For every pissy person there is another willing to fork over the money for their best friend.

Wow, a real live client complaining about the fees. Thanks for making my point. I assume j. will be along shortly with his/her client education program.🙂

 

[lazyjayn]

Hmmm... obviously I'm totally wrong. I'll just let it go, shall I? Or perhaps I'll go ask the people doc types why it took three weeks to get an appointment and then cost $250 just for a physical? or why my chest x-rays cost $185?

800 for 2 dogs for 2 weeks? that's only about 28 per dog per day. probably including tax. That sounds pretty close to normal to me.... 'sepcially if one is big. But what do I know. Of course, there's always hiring someone to stay in your home with the dogs, but that costs about the same. If you can find someone you trust....

And schools will keep charging 100k+ to train vets as long as idiots like us are willing to pay it. It's that whole supply and demand thing. Want better funding options? organize and complain to your congressperson and state rep's. At least they can (pretend) to do something about it.

Medicine- all types- was traditionally a career for the financially independant (except surgeons, maybe). As vet med is seen as more "professional" by the gov't and schools, cost to train is going to go up. the gov doesn't care what it costs you to get your degree, so long as it doesn't cost *them* anything and you pay your taxes when you get out.

Or, of course, you could always come to NZ, marry a kiwi, kick a$$ for a semester to get a+'s, and get out after 5 years with only about 40k (nz) in debt. All interest free. But who would wanna do that?

j.

 

[giles]

The debt is a bit more than that. Average debt was $51,000 for NZ students finishing in 2002, compared with $30K in 2000 (http://www.vets.org.nz/News/Media/2003/Step Up Prog.pdf). So would think it's more like $60-70K by now. But take your point, and yep, the interest-free nature of the loans makes a big difference.

H

Or, of course, you could always come to NZ, marry a kiwi, kick a$$ for a semester to get a+'s, and get out after 5 years with only about 40k (nz) in debt. All interest free. But who would wanna do that?

j.

 

[birdvet2006]

Living on $600-1000 per month? Sounds crazy to me. I'm feeling stressed about living off $1800 per month! $740/mo. rent, $32 electricity, $125 consolidated loans, $14 gas bill, $59 Internet & basic cable (Internet is a necessity to me, and I use it for education), $60 for cell phone (my only phone - a necessity), and $155 minimum towards my credit card...not to mention my grocery bills and gas (for the car), or whatever else I want to spend. Adding it all up, I do have a bit of money to play with - but what happens if you need to pay a vet bill (even as a vet, sometimes I need to pay for my own pets' care) or need to travel somewhere (like how I recently went to check out a residency programme)?

Anyways...I am just an intern, this should only last a short while. BUT, I am deferring/forebearing the majority of my loans. What's going to happen when I have to start making payments? Just imagine, even with a higher salary.

 

[lazyjayn]

giles- I was assuming the spouse would help cover living expenses. Note- I am not suggesting that people marry random NZ'ers just for residence.

birdvet- If that's the budget that works for you, then that's your budget. People all have things they need in order to be comfortable/ not miserable. It's a different point for everyone. I'm comfortable living with roommates/ flatmates, some people aren't. I'm willing to shop around for the cheapest cell plan I can find, or piggyback on my parents plan for a better deal. I'm also willing to have beans and rice 5 times a week, but I know most people aren't.

As for pets, I figure that, like children, if you can't afford them without financial strain, you probably shouldn't have them. And I don't.

Los angeles animal control seems to be hiring a whole new vet department- anyone want one of those jobs? 70-101k/ year. Of course, ya gotta wonder *why* they're hiring a whole department worth of people. Maybe they usually need to hire 6 vets all at the same time? And think! no clients!

j.

 

[are_jay]

giles- I was assuming the spouse would help cover living expenses. Note- I am not suggesting that people marry random NZ'ers just for residence.

birdvet- If that's the budget that works for you, then that's your budget. People all have things they need in order to be comfortable/ not miserable. It's a different point for everyone. I'm comfortable living with roommates/ flatmates, some people aren't. I'm willing to shop around for the cheapest cell plan I can find, or piggyback on my parents plan for a better deal. I'm also willing to have beans and rice 5 times a week, but I know most people aren't.

As for pets, I figure that, like children, if you can't afford them without financial strain, you probably shouldn't have them. And I don't.

Los angeles animal control seems to be hiring a whole new vet department- anyone want one of those jobs? 70-101k/ year. Of course, ya gotta wonder *why* they're hiring a whole department worth of people. Maybe they usually need to hire 6 vets all at the same time? And think! no clients!

j.

lazyjayn, are you a vet or a doctor of some sort? I just ask because there seems to be some sort of disconnect between what you write about and the vets/vet students who have posted here. I went to the simpleliving.net website that you suggested, and the only practical advice I saw involved consuming less money but far more time. I don't have time to grow my own food, nor do I own a fancy TV. I have to buy nice clothes to wear in the presence of clients, and I don't have hours to sift through the racks at the second hand stores (I tried as an undergrad), not to mention every pair of slacks I buy must be altered to fit right. I have to put gas in my car so I can get to the hospital and/or lab at any hour when I am on duty. I never go out to eat or go to the movies. Out of the 5 roomate configurations I've had, only one allowed me to study and sleep in peace. I live in a small college town, tough to find 'older' roomates. Doctors are supposed to be paid more than average because the value of their work is higher than average--they shouldn't have to struggle to make ends meet.

 

[bubbles525]

Jane you're not the only one. I am going into vet school with a firm understanding of my income prospects after I graduate and a basic approach on how to make it work. I chose Murdoch not only because I got in, it'll be an adventure, and it is AVMA accredited but also because it will cost me less. I think people in general (not pointing any fingers) should go into any debt with their eyes open, and if you cannot afford it don't do it. Maybe that sounds harsh because so many of us vet students work the majority of our educational lives to be accepted and the non-trads typically devote at least 2 years after school to become competitive. Especially because the vet related jobs we seem to have to take to get in do not pay well. Harsh or not it is my opinion. If someone wants a profession that is easy or will make you wealthy this is not it.


I don't think the cost of education vs the income potential of vets is fair by any means. I don't think the application evaluation process in the US is fair either (for most of the schools anyhow). These are just facts that as a prospective student and in July a vet student I have to deal with in order to have the privilege of becoming a veterinarian. For me it is all about how much I want it. I want to be in the profession so much that I have had to compromise and make sacrifices in order to be accepted, and once a graduate I'll have to make more in order to pay for it. Life is not easy. There are always options for all of us. We can become military vets, go into the poultry industry, work for the FDA, put off our internships and residencies, or move someplace undesirable in order to be paid more.


Just one example, though not from vet medicine: I have two friends living independently in LA. They live modestly but well on $40,000 a year for both of them. In a year they've saved the surplus $19,000 for their combined incomes and put it aside for a down payment on a house. In the past year they have both come home to the east coast twice, bought a used but not junker car, bought an engagement ring, they go out to dinner once every two weeks and have basic cable, internet, two cell phones and a land line (with no long distance), and Kels says she does not clip coupons and should . All of that on about $40,000 a year.

If they can live on $20,000 a year each in LA, an expensive place to live, then I can do that and put everything else (another ~$20,000) toward my loans. Sure I'd like to own a house right away, have kids right away etc. I do have hopes that my SO and I will be married before I graduate and that his income will supplement mine and make it easier to pay off my loans or more feasible to have children sooner, but if not I've gone into this with my eyes open. I'll complain about it I'm sure; I hope not to be overwhelmed by it though.

~Marie

 

[lazyjayn]

Ok, are jay, you're right, I'm obviously delusional. No one could ever live on $1000 a month after taxes and loan payments are taken out. No one anywhere ever. Probably not $2000 a month either. All grads should get 300k/ year jobs straight out of school.

Me? I'm just a student. I've lived a bit tho, and don't see how 60 or 80 hours a week working as a vet takes up any more time than working 60 or 80 hours a week at anything else.

Vets should get paid more- fine, I agree. People shouldn't have to scrimp and save to pay the bills, fine. But when what you mean is *won't* don't say *can't*. Like I said before- everyone has their own point they're willing to budget to. Everyone has things in life that make them happy. I like paying off bills so I don't give the bank 300k more than I borrowed. You like living alone, buying new clothes, and whatever else. Don't worry- not being comfortable with any kind of debt makes me the freak, living with debt is the new American way, ya know.

So- LA pays crap, SA pays ok, things no one wants to do pay better, and boarded specialists are (comparativly) rolling in it. And doctors, atheletes, NYC garbage men, and a disturbing number of civil servants make more than all of them. Close enough?

j.

eta- marie- thank you, it's always good to know you aren't the only person running the numbers and looking at the more eonomical options.

 

[kate_g]

Ok, are jay, you're right, I'm obviously delusional. No one could ever live on $1000 a month after taxes and loan payments are taken out. No one anywhere ever. Probably not $2000 a month either.

I think part of the misunderstanding with above posters is that in your first run-down of numbers, when you said "living on $1000/month" you had already accounted for loan payment, rent, and utilities. (I personally think you underestimated rent and utilities, even with roommates, but you did specifically say you were picking a mid-sized cheap-ish city, and my current San Francisco area location may skew my estimation of what "average" costs are like.)

I'd be hard-pressed to spend $1000 a month just on food, clothes, car, cell phone, and other "personal expenses" - especially if you assume having a cheap used car (or, better in the city, a motorcycle), short commute, and shopping at Target or Wal-Mart or whatever (even adding the cost of alterations, you can get cheap professional-looking clothes, your clients won't look closely enough to know the difference).

However, $1000/month *including* rent and utilities would clearly be insane, and I think some previous posters assumed that's what you meant by "living on $1000/month".

 

[lazyjayn]

They're science students. Anything that doesn't have a long technical name or a diagram gets skimmed.

Yeah, 1000 is a little tight, but since most of vets don't end up in one of the "real" cities, as I call them, the cheaper mid-sized city is, perhaps, a more realistic estimate. Heck, anyone willing to live in one of the big empty states could get by on 1000 for rent *and* all their other living expenses. But who wants to do something crazy like that? For a real city, maybe 2k is more realistic for living expenses and rent, and car payment if you have one. But you'd also hopefully be making a bit more than 50k/yr.

work clothes don't have to be fancy, you're right- they're just going to get shed and puked and peed and slobbered on. They need to be washable, is what they need- heck, most of it's covered by a lab coat, anyway. I find Dickies work pretty well for just about anything I throw at them. Plus they're cheap and come in just about any size. $100 for 5 pairs of pants is much better than $100 for 1 or 2 pairs of pants, which is what you get if you're lucky in the ladies department. you won't be stylish, but so long as you don't go with camo you should look professional.

j.

 

[Inkabellous]

There's no way in hell I would be able to live with $1,000 a month! In CA, the rent alone is already ~$800-$900 per month. Perhaps, it really depends on the location (more so than the individuals).

 

[chris03333]

There's no way in hell I would be able to live with $1,000 a month! In CA, the rent alone is already ~$800-$900 per month. Perhaps, it really depends on the location (more so than the individuals).

Yup here in Los Angeles a SMALL apartment rent runs over $1000 and that is just rent.......😱

 

[kate_g]

There's no way in hell I would be able to live with $1,000 a month! In CA, the rent alone is already ~$800-$900 per month. Perhaps, it really depends on the location (more so than the individuals).

ARGH! Did you even read the last two posts above yours? The $1K/month Jayn was talking about is *after* you take out loan payment, rent, and utilities.

Granted, she assumed you'll live in a city with "average" rent. As a current Californian myself I don't like saying this, but you don't *have* to live in CA. If you choose to live in CA, you choose to spend more in rent, so you choose to have less disposable income. I'm also guessing, though I haven't looked for a breakdown by state, that (like almost every other job) starting salary for vets is a little higher in CA than elsewhere, to help make up for the difference in cost of living.

 

[Inkabellous]

I did read all the posts but seriously a $1,000 a month is not enough (at least for me).

"The $1K/month Jayn was talking about is *after* you take out loan payment, rent, and utilities."

Yes, BUT you still have to pay for gas, food, credit-card bills, car payments, etc. and most importantly you need/should (to) put away some money for retirement!! With all of these, I really think it would be tight to live with $1,000/month. Also, I do realize that I "don't have to" live in CA (thanks for saying what I already know) and I've never said that I'd live here for the rest of my life.

 

[Rydney]

I lived in NYC for 2 years on about $1000 a month (no, I didn't eat ramen 3x a day). That being one of the more expensive places to live, I'm assuming a similar budget would work just about anywhere else- for 4 years, anyway. j.

You need to be more honest if you want to be taken seriously. I'm not saying you didn't actually live off of $1000/month in NYC, although I don't believe you did, but in the very slim chance I'm wrong, you did not do it under anything resembling normal circumstances. A shared apartment in NYC would run you around that much by itself, and that's not in a good part of town, so quit the bs heh?

 

[Rydney]

Ok, are jay, you're right, I'm obviously delusional. No one could ever live on $1000 a month after taxes and loan payments are taken out. No one anywhere ever. Probably not $2000 a month either. All grads should get 300k/ year jobs straight out of school.

How is it that you equate someone, quite rightly I think, saying you are lying about living on 1K a month with said person saying you need 25K a month to live on? That's quite a jump you made, but I'm not sure why. Also, someone somewhere lives on less than 1K a month, yes, but no one is questioning that, they are questioning you saying you lived in NYC on 1K a month. That is quite different than "No one anywhere ever." You should not get so upset at people questioning you. If you were telling the truth you would not need to resort to such silly arguments to defend yourself.

 

[frozen_canadian]

I've followed this thread for a while and I think there have been many irrational points made. We put 8 years of hard work into getting a degree, and I sure expect to make a decent living out of it AND, heaven forbid, intend to raise a family out of my wage. I cannot fathom going through all the sweat and tears to live off $1000/month. Granted, my student loans will be not as high as some people. I also don't intend to get rich out of this profession. But I expect a comfortable life with my own house (someday), a reliable car and the ability to take time off every now and then to go fishing at the lake. My family will be well taken care and my kids will grow up seeing the rewards that come with hard work. If this isn't the reality of vet med, then every vet I have ever met in an established practice is an exception to the rule.

 

[lazyjayn]

Decent neighborhood in brooklyn, 525/ month, my share, living with two friends. 'bout another 100 for utilities, phone and stuff. you aren't really telling me it's imposible to eat, move around, do laundry and work- plus some fun stuff- on $375 a month? Heck, even the most expensive museums are free once a week.

I wasn't in manhattan, but I wasn't out in the bronx, either. It'd actually be more difficult in LA, because the public transit sucks. But then, I'm not really an LA kinda gal- I can read.

the 300k was because so many people here seem to think that just getting the degree means you should get the big bucks. MBA's don't make great money right outta school, or doctors, or most lawyers. Why should vets be any different? Learning something in school, with hand-holding is different than having all the responsibility yourself. Wonder how long into practice most vets are before they're really pulling their own weight, and confidant in their skills and decisions? How long untill their co-workers think so?

Right, I have to pack, I'm moving on tuesday, and back home for two weeks on Wednesday. Have fun, everyone.

j.