Salary discrepancy

[WildcatJayhawk]

Hi, MS3 here looking to go into rads. Thought I wanted to do Ortho but realized I didn't like the OR as much as I thought I would and heard Radiology had similar salary and eas(ier) lifestyle. Looking on CIM it looks like the starting salary is 200K but jumps up to 500K with 1-2 years in the specialty... is this accurate? 200K seems low. If not, what is a more accurate value these days, and what could I reasonably expect for a starting salary in the Midwest?

PS - not just interested in Rads for the lifestyle/salary, I find it intellectually fascinating.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[FranzLO]

Please PM this individual rather than post numbers. From what I understand, the numbers you mention are off by quite a bit, for different reasons.

 

[shark2000]

Ortho makes more money, so go for Ortho.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Probably will have more luck discreetly asking residents/fellows what kind of jobs are out there. What salary you may or may not be making is the least of your worries at this point, I think you have a pretty myopic view of the field of you think it is easier than Ortho (residency yes, attending is a different matter though). I enjoyed your "P.S" immensely.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[meister]

Rads private practice lifestyle isn't that great, probably about average for medicine in general depending on the practice setting and whether or not there's a nighthawk service.

That listed starting salary is off by a significant amount. I'm not complaining though, maybe it'll keep CMS off our backs. (yeah right)

 

[Medicineman1987]

rads make peanut compared to ortho, go4it.

 

[meister]

^^^^ sage advice young ortho bro

 

[bashwell]

$300k minimum starting salary.

 

[bjb305]

i dunno why everyone is so obsessed with money. i'm in rads residency with more than average debt and i would take $200k a year to do rads cause it's a sweet job and i love it. if u wanna make more, invest

 

[llusom2014]

Radiology is simply not a field people go into for the money anymore. Akin to Pediatrics, do it because you love it (and the off chance you get to nail a hot milf.) Starting salaries are near the poverty line, and most partnership tracks outlive contracts to the church of scientology. Ortho is the pot of gold behind the rainbow.

Godspeed young padawang.

 

[radster]

300K is the lower end of starting salaries from the fellows that I have heard from in my program. Best of luck.

 

[MadRadLad]

300K is the lower end of starting salaries from the fellows that I have heard from in my program. Best of luck.

Any idea how starting salaries vary for subspecialties (e.g. neuro, MSK, IR)?

 

[RadsonRads]

Do not post on public forum. If you are curious, google

 

[preDoGuy24]

Do not post on public forum. If you are curious, google

Seriously, this stuff has literally been used before in Physician takedown pieces.

Not hard info to find.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[vm26]

Any idea how starting salaries vary for subspecialties (e.g. neuro, MSK, IR)?

IR =+10-15% everything else is the same all things being equal (eg. taking call etc)

 

[vm26]

i dunno why everyone is so obsessed with money. i'm in rads residency with more than average debt and i would take $200k a year to do rads cause it's a sweet job and i love it. if u wanna make more, invest

Great! I know a couple of private practice groups that are hiring around your accepted rate, they are employed positions, overnights 8pm-8am, 7 on/7 off with opportunity to pick up more shifts on your days off, also need to be neuro CAQ'd and obviously BC'd, also "light" IR would be helpful...

 

[deleted116380]

Do not post on public forum. If you are curious, google

Posting salaries publicly won't affect anything so I don't get the big fuss about asking people to refrain from doing it. CMS doesn't troll website forums for anecdotal salaries to determine cuts and some nobody-blogger doesn't matter. If your career's salary and benefits can be changed by posting an anecdotal number on a messageboard, you have bigger problems to worry about. By giving applicants more information about a field (work hours, call schedule, work load, amount and type of procedure, salary, benefits), it allows them to make a more informed decision about their career. Hiding that information will lead to more unhappy (resulting in more unproductive) workers that had different expectations as no one told them otherwise. It may even help people negotiate contracts as fellows when they're getting their first attending jobs rather than realize later they got shafted.

OP, there's public info on VA salaries (and any federal employee for that matter). You can search databases online for your VA attendings if you're curious to the specifics on theirs. It's roughly $275-300k for diagnostic and $325k+ for IR depending on location. PP is higher than that obviously as is the workload. For comparison, VA hospitalists can make anywhere from $180-220k/yr.

 

[FranzLO]

How tough is it to get a VA job, in general?

 

[colbgw02]

How tough is it to get a VA job, in general?

In this market, pretty difficult, but like with so many things VA-related, there's tremendous variance. VAs associated with university hospitals are pretty good gigs and pseudoacademic, so those jobs can be exceedingly difficult to get. VAs in undesirable locations may suffer from crippling turnover, so those jobs can be readily available.

 

[bronx43]

Kids these days still think like this? I mean, if there's anything that I've noticed in the past 5-7 years, it's that parity in compensation is dropping off across different specialties. Sure, there still are differences, it's not the same market as it was in the mid to late 2000s. I'm an internist so I get absolutely bombarded with job offers, and I'm seeing more and more ridiculously high offers for primary care. Hospital systems are realizing that ambulatory is where the money is at, and they need to expand outpatient in order to make money. It's almost like an arms race at this point. Some systems are paying up to $50/wRVU and promises of 300-400k for 5 days of 8-5 clinic, which was unheard of a couple years back. This obviously isn't a call for people to do primary care, which may or may not suck as a career, but it's a testament to the changing landscape of the MD marketplace. Making decisions purely based on current compensation surveys is like driving while only looking at your rear view mirror. Just do what you like and hope that the market doesn't blow up to your detriment by the time you're done training.

Another thing that youngsters don't realize is that wealth is not made by high W2's. It's made by smart investing, money managing, and not marrying an idiot/liability.

 

[cbtk18]

Kids these days still think like this? I mean, if there's anything that I've noticed in the past 5-7 years, it's that parity in compensation is dropping off across different specialties. Sure, there still are differences, it's not the same market as it was in the mid to late 2000s. I'm an internist so I get absolutely bombarded with job offers, and I'm seeing more and more ridiculously high offers for primary care. Hospital systems are realizing that ambulatory is where the money is at, and they need to expand outpatient in order to make money. It's almost like an arms race at this point. Some systems are paying up to $50/wRVU and promises of 300-400k for 5 days of 8-5 clinic, which was unheard of a couple years back. This obviously isn't a call for people to do primary care, which may or may not suck as a career, but it's a testament to the changing landscape of the MD marketplace. Making decisions purely based on current compensation surveys is like driving while only looking at your rear view mirror. Just do what you like and hope that the market doesn't blow up to your detriment by the time you're done training.

Another thing that youngsters don't realize is that wealth is not made by high W2's. It's made by smart investing, money managing, and not marrying an idiot/liability.

This is preposterous.

 

[Baller MD]

This is preposterous.

Why?

 

[bronx43]

This is preposterous.

Ok, kid.

 

[WildcatJayhawk]

Thank you everyone for the information!

 

[asdf0987]

There are plenty of online salary search tools where you can compare by geographic region etc by specialty. AAMC, Medscape, many of the recruiting firms, etc have these search tools. They all give slightly different values but you can get a good estimate by averaging them. It really does vary a lot from city to city and region to region, for some specialties the difference can be more than 100k/yr comparing between somewhere like NYC (more competition/doctors means lower pay) and North Dakota or Iowa (generally pay more to attract people to come there).

 

[womp]

It's important to realize that residency is a finite amount of time. You will be an attending for the next 30+ years after residency.

Ortho residency is brutal, but as an attending, your hours are fairly predictable (unless you do ortho trauma). Clinic days are 8 to 5. You also often have PAs helping you with notes and floor work. Call varies depending on the level of acuity your group deals with.

 

[shark2000]

It's important to realize that residency is a finite amount of time. You will be an attending for the next 30+ years after residency.

Ortho residency is brutal, but as an attending, your hours are fairly predictable (unless you do ortho trauma). Clinic days are 8 to 5. You also often have PAs helping you with notes and floor work. Call varies depending on the level of acuity your group deals with.

The hours are not as important as the type of work. Ortho and radiology are very different fields. Most people who enjoy ortho will be miserable in radiology and most radiologists hate OR.

But agree with your point that some fields have easier life style and better hours as attending and some field have it worse. Unless you do trauma, Ortho hours are pretty decent as attending, much better than most other surgical fields.

 

[womp]

True, but I think ortho and rads also have a lot in common, there's a lot of imaging and detailed anatomy involved in ortho. Both fields attract people who have good visual spatial skills.

 

[shark2000]

True, but I think ortho and rads also have a lot in common, there's a lot of imaging and detailed anatomy involved in ortho. Both fields attract people who have good visual spatial skills.

True.

As a side note, this is my personal opinion about different fields:

If you like OR and Major procedures nothing beats Ortho.
If you like OR and clean fine procedures nothing beats Ophtho
If you like Diagnostic aspect of medicine nothing beats Radiology
If you like none of above, nothing beats Derm.
If you are looking for a decent job in medicine with good hours and you don't or can't do Derm, nothing beats Family practice.

It is a harsh statement, but I don't know why people choose any field outside the above-mentioned fields. People, especially medical students may think I am out of my mind, but this is my personal opinion. Family medicine is underrated. General surgery and some other surgical subspecialties are definitely over-rated. ER is overrated.

Choosing a medical specialty is a relatively random process. Most medical students choose a field based on very weak reasons. I have found most medical students and junior residents very uninformed about their field, especially uninformed about real life in pp. On the other hand, most attendings are also very uninformed about "other fields". After 10-20 years in private practice, people have a very tunnel vision even in their own field. Just imagine, you may end up in a small hospital in a rural town or even a big hospital in a big city. That's all you know about your field and other fields. If general surgeons in your hospital suck, you think that general surgery in general sucks. If radiology reports are full of mistakes, you think that is what radiology is everywhere. If your hospital doesn't do liver transplant, you may not even know that liver transplant exists.

The key factor in choosing a field is to see whether you can do it for the next 30 years or not. The rest will come after it. Don't forget that the exciting parts of your field will become routine very soon (even when you become a senior resident), but the annoying parts will become more annoying over time. If being on call every 3rd nigh is annoying to you as a resident, it will become much more annoying when you are 46 with 3 kids at home. On the other hand, by your mid career most of the excitement will be gone.

 

[scootad.]

The problem with IM/FP is midlevel encroachment. Of course, that topic has been beaten to death on this website. That would be a deal breaker for me.

Rad onc seems like a good specialty at least from an outsider's perspective.

 

[deleted564680]

Medscape just published their new salary data....Radiology is still one of the tops (Ortho is WAY out in front). FYI, ENT and neurosurgery are not part of this data.

1. Ortho 421,000
2. Cardiology 376,000
3. GI 370,000
4. Anesthesia 358,000
5. Plastics 354,000
6. Radiology 351,000
7. Urology 344,000
8. Derm 339,000

These seem more like starting salaries to me or average salaries with academics included. Maybe add 50-75k for private practice?
Also, probably add 30k or so for IR. But same could be said for IR cards.

 

[scootad.]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this particular survey - it mixes rads who have already made partner in some unknown proportion relative to newbies, those in employed positions, in academics, part time, etc. Only 3% of radiologists were surveyed. The only salary figure med students should scrutinize at this point is starting salary. Becoming partner is becoming a thing of the past. In 2015, a large number of "partnership track" positions end up never materializing into partnership unlike was the case 10 years ago. Many groups hire new fellowship grads, work them hard for 3 years to subsidize their higher salary, then replace them with another newbie.

 

[meister]

While that may occur in some locales (mostly NYC/LA/SF), partnership tracks are still the norm in most areas in the traditional private practice setting. A bigger problem is the slow death of the traditional private practice.

 

[shark2000]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this particular survey - it mixes rads who have already made partner in some unknown proportion relative to newbies, those in employed positions, in academics, part time, etc. Only 3% of radiologists were surveyed. The only salary figure med students should scrutinize at this point is starting salary. Becoming partner is becoming a thing of the past. In 2015, a large number of "partnership track" positions end up never materializing into partnership unlike was the case 10 years ago. Many groups hire new fellowship grads, work them hard for 3 years to subsidize their higher salary, then replace them with another newbie.

Medical student's BS mixed with Conspiracy theory.

 

[scootad.]

I'm speaking from personal experience. I realize my experience may not be generalizable everywhere, but I also know several others in a similar position. On the ACR job listing, there are fewer and fewer jobs promising partnership as each month/year passes. I ended up taking a more "stable" employed position after the 3 years and I'm perfectly fine with it now (although I wish my former employer was more honest). There are fewer and fewer true partnerships esp in desirable locales.

 

[shark2000]

I'm speaking from personal experience. I realize my experience may not be generalizable everywhere, but I also know several others in a similar position. On the ACR job listing, there are fewer and fewer jobs promising partnership as each month/year passes. I ended up taking a more "stable" employed position after the 3 years and I'm perfectly fine with it now (although I wish my former employer was more honest). There are fewer and fewer true partnerships esp in desirable locales.

ACR job listing is the worst place to find a job. period. If a job is advertised especially in this market, there should be something wrong with the job. Obviously, there are always some exceptions and there are some jobs like State jobs and VA jobs that should be advertised by law.

Most doctors have become hospital employees. I think I have seen numbers around 60% or so, though it is different in different fields. However, the traditional private practice model is still out there. Even if you are who you claim, your response has a strong component of rationalization. You didn't find a partnership job or your former group were bunch of jerk, now you want to justify that this is a norm and you were not exception. This is human nature to feel better if they think the bad stuff that happened to them is not unique to them.

I personally don't believe in these salary surveys. Just as an example, there are three groups within 20 miles of each other in my area and one group makes on average twice as much as the other group. The overlap and variation within a certain field and between different fields is huge. So yes, you may find a starting salary of 150K even for a neurosurgeon but you can generalize it. Still the offers for Radiology are solid in most places. Salaries in NYC and certain other locations were always notoriously low.

 

[scootad.]

I totally agree that the best jobs are not advertised. My current job I got by cold-calling. I do however think there is some value to using the ACR as somewhat of a barometer because there are some legit jobs listed on it. Its not completely bogus like radworking.com, which is recruiter based.

 

[maxxor]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this particular survey...Only 3% of radiologists were surveyed.

I think it meant they only had a 3% response rate for the radiologists, which is even more pathetic.

 

[womp]

ED is pretty hot lately. Maybe due to the fact that the majority of ED visits get upcoded to a level 4 or 5, even if the only value-add the ED physician does is an immediate consult to Surgery or Ortho. It blows my mind the number of ED notes with nothing in the plan but "MDM: Ortho consulted" or the number of times I've had the ED docs tell me they "haven't seen the patient nor the XR yet, just read the preliminary report." Cha-ching.

Something like only 20% of ED visits are coded as less than a level 3, even though as we all know the vast majority of ED visits are primary care visits. Hospitals love it because they get the level 4-5 facility fees too ($300+ a visit) with every runny nose or abdominal pain.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...st-1-billion-extra-fees-emergency-room-visits
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24511988
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20130907/MAGAZINE/309079978

 

[cbtk18]

I hate just about everything about the ED.

 

[meister]

ED gives us tons of business. Don't hate the player and all that.

 

[emergentmd]

ED gives us tons of business. Don't hate the player and all that.

I find it very funny how some specialists hates the ED, hates getting called, judge the ED work ups etc. Ok, I get you don't like us to do EVERYTHING for you so you can go back to bed without any extra thought/work.

But why would anyone hate getting more $$ and businesses. No different than when my partners complain about seeing sore throat and non ER issues.

Do you guys want jobs? Do you not like easy money? Do you think a car salesman ever complain when Joe Money shows up wanting his 5th new car that year when he hasn't even driven his last care?

I find it interesting how the new fresh Ortho doc comes by begging for work, passing his cards out with cookies, coming to our meetings expounding how he is willing to come in any time if we need him. Fast forward 1 yr and you never see him, complains when he gets called, asks for transfers with anything even somewhat complicated.

Anyways folks.... its better to be busy and have great job security. I would rather see sore throats, dental pain half the time in the ED rather than having to work in Montana begging for a job and freezing my butt off.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Hey, I like Montana!

 

[colbgw02]

I find it very funny how some specialists hates the ED, hates getting called, judge the ED work ups etc. Ok, I get you don't like us to do EVERYTHING for you so you can go back to bed without any extra thought/work.

But why would anyone hate getting more $$ and businesses. No different than when my partners complain about seeing sore throat and non ER issues.

Do you guys want jobs? Do you not like easy money? Do you think a car salesman ever complain when Joe Money shows up wanting his 5th new car that year when he hasn't even driven his last care?

I find it interesting how the new fresh Ortho doc comes by begging for work, passing his cards out with cookies, coming to our meetings expounding how he is willing to come in any time if we need him. Fast forward 1 yr and you never see him, complains when he gets called, asks for transfers with anything even somewhat complicated.

Anyways folks.... its better to be busy and have great job security. I would rather see sore throats, dental pain half the time in the ED rather than having to work in Montana begging for a job and freezing my butt off.

Overall, I think I agree. I see the ED's reliance on medical imaging as job security, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't get frustrating at times.

There are moments when we're overworked, just like you are. So just as your partners may be upset with the uncomplicated sore throat at 3 AM, we too get frustrated by the 5th abd/pelvis CT in the last half an hour. At some point, reimbursement takes a back seat to sanity.

Also, some of us retain at least a modicum of a desire for macro-efficiency. It is, in fact, annoying to me when I make the diagnosis of acute appendicitis on the CT, only to have to read the subsequent abdomen and pelvis ultrasounds also, because all three were ordered simultaneously, on the 25 year old female. I mean, that may be good for my bank account, but it's not good for the patient and it's certainly not good for the healthcare system overall.

Remember, too, that this is a student doctor website, where there are lots of residents who aren't getting paid a dime extra regardless of how hard they work. We all need to vent at times.

 

[shark2000]

Overall, I think I agree. I see the ED's reliance on medical imaging as job security, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't get frustrating at times.

There are moments when we're overworked, just like you are. So just as your partners may be upset with the uncomplicated sore throat at 3 AM, we too get frustrated by the 5th abd/pelvis CT in the last half an hour. At some point, reimbursement takes a back seat to sanity.

Also, some of us retain at least a modicum of a desire for macro-efficiency. It is, in fact, annoying to me when I make the diagnosis of acute appendicitis on the CT, only to have to read the subsequent abdomen and pelvis ultrasounds also, because all three were ordered simultaneously, on the 25 year old female. I mean, that may be good for my bank account, but it's not good for the patient and it's certainly not good for the healthcare system overall.

Remember, too, that this is a student doctor website, where there are lots of residents who aren't getting paid a dime extra regardless of how hard they work. We all need to vent at times.

IMO, the big blame is on hospital admins and the healthcare system that puts so much pressure on physicians. Everybody has their moment of frustration and anger. This anger is echoed in our relation to other people around us. I don't say this is the right thing to do. But when I look around me, I see most physicians are overworked, overwhelmed and exhausted.

When I call the ED doctor or a surgeon with a critical finding, they are angry and frustrated because they know that my call means a lot of more work on top of their already crazy workload. Along the same lines, when the ED calls radiology we get frustrated because we know it means more studies to read. There is nothing personal against radiologists, ED doctor, hospitalist, surgeon or ... It is the working environment that makes our life difficult and frustrating.

I know that someone may jump in and ask why I don't work less if I feel overworked. While the big blame is on doctors themselves as a group, as an individuals a lot of time we don't have that much control over what we do. I am a partner in my group, but believe me. Even for me working 20% less for 20% less pay is not an option unless I either take a huge pay cut or I give up sweat shifts and do all the scutwork. Especially for radiology, a lot of medical students think that they can do radiology and then take a job that is 2 days a week in their desirable location. In reality, you can not even find a job that is 2 nights a week (probably if you do only weekends you can) as most night jobs come in week blocks.

Look at some research work on physician burnout. You will get surprised to see the numbers. It is more surprising that only 50% of physicians would choose medicine again if they could do it again. This looks like a disaster for a job that has one of the best job securities and is well paid.

So I agree that a radiologist, surgeon, ED doctor, hospitalist, GI, ... should be nice to his/her colleagues, esp the ones that he/she work closely with. However, most of the time misbehavior is an echo of internal misery rather than personal disrespect.

 

[emergentmd]

I get that everyone has bad days. Some more than others. I have my bad days too where I am grouchy to the staff. But everyone should step back once in a while to see how lucky we are. I have been with my ED group for over 15 yrs. Complaints are cyclical.

When I first started, we were overworked. So the complaints were that we were working too hard. We had to hire more doctors. Its dangerous seeing so many patients.

Fast forward 3 yrs and we are overstaffed. Docs working less, seeing less patients. Guess what? Pay goes down. I hear complaints about working too little. Not seeing enough patients. Docs picking up more shifts, etc.

Fast forward 3 more years and some docs quit/retire. We didn't hire anymore b/c people wanted to pick up more shifts. Guess what, ED got busier. Now everyone is working 1-3 more shifts than they want. Pay is good. I hear complaints about being overworked again.

So I step back and see how silly people in general can be. They complain about being overworked. Then complain that they are not making enough. Now back to overworked. As I grow older, I just realize that some people just like to complain. Maybe it just makes them feel better. I just ignore the complaints most of the time b/c some will complaint no matter what.

Even now when we are busy, overoworked. Some fast/aggressive docs still fight other docs/PAs for pts and at the end of their shift complain how busy they are. How the other doc did not carry their weight. Well, if you didn't pick up that new chart 30 seconds after they are put in a room, then maybe the other doc could help carry some of "their weight"

I find myself at peace as really very little in the ED bothers me.
When its busy and chaotic, I know there will be days that are slow.
When its slow, I know there will be days when its busy.
IT ALL BALANCES OUT

When I see the 5th dental pain, I know the next shift will have 5 straight sick pts
etc....
IT ALL BALANCES OUT

LIFE ALWAYS BALANCES EVERYTHING OUT.