Salary EM

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I would always prefer an independent group where you can make more $$$, have more say in the function of the group, and actually have a vote on matters.

I see no good reason joining an EMCARE unless I had to. The problem with independent groups is that they are becoming extinct. I hope to be independent forever with the pay I have but I realize that I will eventually be eaten up one day.

Hopefully I will be financially established when EMCARE takes over. I think another 10 yrs and I would be financially set and be happy to get paid $180/hr seeing my 1.7 pts/hr.
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If you plan on working in texas and want to make money quickly, you should be able to join a group that provides good benefits and pay 200/hr.

Work the minimum required for benefits and work in the many BFE emcare hospitals for $300+/hr.
 
What state are you in? I want to move there.
 
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emergentmd said:
If you plan on working in texas and want to make money quickly, you should be able to join a group that provides good benefits and pay 200/hr.

Work the minimum required for benefits and work in the many BFE emcare hospitals for $300+/hr.
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Just curious, why are you digging up all these threads and posting the same thing on each one about how much money you are making?
 
Well,

I registered years ago and while doing a search on avg EM salaries, these threads came up on a google search.

I just happened to respond to these threads while as they were linked by google. Nothing less, nothing more.
 
So I've reviewed the figures from medscape. The majority seem to work between 30-40hr/wk. Is it not possible to work more than that or do EM docs choose not to?

Surgeons work many hours and most would argue they are busy during this period of time. Could EM physicians work 50-60hr or is it simply a terrible life to do so?
 
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It's a terrible life. 60 hours a week is 21-22 twelve hour shifts a month. I don't even know of a residency where the residents do that many. I've seen residencies do twenty 12s, but that's it.

Think of it this way:

Average person works 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, right? So that's 20-21 days a month. Now he gets 4 weeks off a year. That's 28 days, or about 2 1/3 days per month. So now we're down to 18. He also gets about a holiday a month. Now he's down to 17. Emergency docs lose perhaps 2 days a month purely transitioning from nights to days and days to nights. So we're down to 15. Is it any surprise that the most someone can tolerate long-term is in the ballpark of fifteen 8s? Especially when you consider the pace and stresses of the job? Yes, you can work 60 in a week, and I occasionally do. But it must be balanced with weeks where you're not working anywhere near that many if you hope to have career longevity. If you enjoying working a bazillion hours a week, be a surgeon. If you don't enjoy it, why do it? You really can't live off $200-300K? Sounds like a spending problem, not an earning problem.
 
anyone have any numbers on how much non-emerg trained (FP/IM/PEDS) emerg docs make?
 
jawad12ca said:
anyone have any numbers on how much non-emerg trained (FP/IM/PEDS) emerg docs make?
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200 an hour in Arkansas, according to a doctor I shadowed. I'm sure it varies drastically though by location.
 
jawad12ca said:
anyone have any numbers on how much non-emerg trained (FP/IM/PEDS) emerg docs make?
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I was under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that they get paid the same as their EM-trained colleagues and it is more of an issue as to whether or not they will get (or keep) the job.
 
TimesNewRoman said:
I was under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that they get paid the same as their EM-trained colleagues and it is more of an issue as to whether or not they will get (or keep) the job.
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Yes, I think this is true based on my conversation with the doc I shadowed. In rural areas though, there is no worries according to him about finding or keeping a job such as the case here in Arkansas. I also asked if he thought this would still be the case when I get out of school, and he said that he thinks it will be this way for years and years.
 
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There's usually good reason a board eligible/certified EM doc isn't at those spots. Usually it's the terrible location, low pay, low acuity, or in most cases a variety of the aforementioned three.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
There's usually good reason a board eligible/certified EM doc isn't at those spots. Usually it's the terrible location, low pay, low acuity, or in most cases a variety of the aforementioned three.
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This is true. At my location, it is a combo of location and acuity level. However, the pay is great and cost of living is low. Also, it is home to me, so I plan on returning in the future anyway. It's also a great option for other people from rural areas or those interested in rural medicine.
 
FutureDO22 said:
This is true. At my location, it is a combo of location and acuity level. However, the pay is great and cost of living is low. Also, it is home to me, so I plan on returning in the future anyway. It's also a great option for other people from rural areas or those interested in rural medicine.
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Does it have the acuity to keep all of your true emergency skills sharpened? That's important as well.
 
I'm really not sure since I'm not a physician, but they did get serious car wrecks every now and then.
 
StressedMedStud said:
I was on medscape and it says women avg salary is $192K vs. Men which is $247K
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This is absolutely true. There is an automatic $40 an hour penis override that you get paid just for showing up which accounts for that salary difference. Women don't have one, so they don't get the override. It has nothing to do with part time vs. full, family leaves, or anything of the sort.

Sent from my A110 using Tapatalk 2
 
Old_Mil said:
This is absolutely true. There is an automatic $40 an hour penis override that you get paid just for showing up which accounts for that salary difference. Women don't have one, so they don't get the override. It has nothing to do with part time vs. full, family leaves, or anything of the sort.
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Actually has more to do with the multiple, well-controlled studies demonstrating superior multi-tasking abilities, intellectual robustness, and revenue generation of men compared to women. Why do you think the world is run by men? Not a coincidence.

Reference: http://bit.ly/bSt6ns
 
xaelia said:
Actually has more to do with the multiple, well-controlled studies demonstrating superior multi-tasking abilities, intellectual robustness, and revenue generation of men compared to women. Why do you think the world is run by men? Not a coincidence.

Reference: http://bit.ly/bSt6ns
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In fact, I have to demonstrate my manliness to get my man bonus on my checks. Sometimes it's awkward. Sometimes it's fun.
 
emergentmd said:
I can tell you with certainty that what I am stating is fact and not exaggerated.

I avg $225/hr in a major texas city working 26hrs a week or 1350 a year. It adds up to $305k/yr Gross. My partner distribution added another $100k. My SEP IRA funding was 52k. My HSA $6500. My business expenses $10k.

This gave me a total compensation of $473k. I also had my Malpractice/health insurance covered by the group (which in essence was by me). This is worth about 15k if I was an IC.

So my package last year was 488K working 26hrs/week. This comes out to $360/hr.

I apologize to anyone if my numbers in the above thread was somewhat inflated but I was doing my calculations from memory. The numbers I am quoting is from my filed taxes for 2012.

Also, I have a few friends in Austin and some working at free standings. The Freestanding IC rate is 190 for 2 doc and $175 for the other doc I know. Some do 12 hrs and 24 hr shifts.

I can tell you with confidence that the rate in Austin for either big is around $190/hr that does not include benefits (retirement/SEP, health, mal practice, bonuses, etc).

I would say after everything is accounted for, they are at $250/hr minimum
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I think you have to take into account where you live. This is way more money than the average ED doc makes in the area where I live. I have a pretty good idea about the range, too, with friends working in various parts of the state. The high end here is around $200/hr, and those jobs are few.

Maybe I should move to Texas...
 
emergentmd said:
I can tell you with certainty that what I am stating is fact and not exaggerated.
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You sound like you're full of it.

$300/hr is definitely not typical. At that rate you'll make most spine surgeons blush in embarrassment as they work close to 70 hrs a week and have double your residency training.

If $200-300/hr is standard in EM, then all of us in medicine should petition for hourly wages instead of RVUs.
 
naus said:
You sound like you're full of it.

$300/hr is definitely not typical. At that rate you'll make most spine surgeons blush in embarrassment as they work close to 70 hrs a week and have double your residency training.

If $200-300/hr is standard in EM, then all of us in medicine should petition for hourly wages instead of RVUs.
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Plenty of EPs make $200/hr. There's a whole thread on it - especially the ones that do independent contracting - which technically loses out on 30-40k in benefits.
 
emtobe2 said:
If someone is willing to work as hard as physically and emotionally possible throughout their 30s for 10 years, how much money can one make per year for those 10 years? This is hypothetical I suppose, but if someone is a true outlier and can do this, how much money can be made if someone is willing to travel, work 20 shifts a month, etc?

Suppose for this question sake that the goal is to stash away enough cash that after the age of 40, it can be possible to live comfortably while working just 4-5 shifts a month
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Approximate dollars per hour, adjusted +/- for benefits x hours worked per year = answer.
 
emtobe2 said:
Thank you, that is some fine med student thinking there. There are more limitations that I would like to hear from an actual attending from, ie contracts enabling sufficient shifts per month, cost of benefits if locums, how much can be made as a locums traveling docs, etc
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Others have posted in about colleagues that work 20+ shifts/month. Benefits have been given the equivalence of $30-40/hour. Various types of traveling positions pay from $150-300, as discussed in previous threads.
 
emtobe2 said:
If someone is willing to work as hard as physically and emotionally possible throughout their 30s for 10 years, how much money can one make per year for those 10 years? This is hypothetical I suppose, but if someone is a true outlier and can do this, how much money can be made if someone is willing to travel, work 20 shifts a month, etc?

Suppose for this question sake that the goal is to stash away enough cash that after the age of 40, it can be possible to live comfortably while working just 4-5 shifts a month
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A lot of money but you already gave your 20's up to med school and residency. It's probably important to enjoy life (beyond your job) before you get super old.

A balanced life and career would probably be healthier for you, your career, and your family.
 
link2swim06 said:
A lot of money but you already gave your 20's up to med school and residency. It's probably important to enjoy life (beyond your job) before you get super old.

A balanced life and career would probably be healthier for you, your career, and your family.
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I agree, but you might not make a lot of friends calling people over 40 "super old." ;)
 
emtobe2 said:
If someone is willing to work as hard as physically and emotionally possible throughout their 30s for 10 years, how much money can one make per year for those 10 years? This is hypothetical I suppose, but if someone is a true outlier and can do this, how much money can be made if someone is willing to travel, work 20 shifts a month, etc?

Suppose for this question sake that the goal is to stash away enough cash that after the age of 40, it can be possible to live comfortably while working just 4-5 shifts a month
Click to expand...
Hopefully you'll make enough to retire because you'll be far passed burnt out by that point.
 
You sound like you're full of it.

$300/hr is definitely not typical. At that rate you'll make most spine surgeons blush in embarrassment as they work close to 70 hrs a week and have double your residency training.

If $200-300/hr is standard in EM, then all of us in medicine should petition for hourly wages instead of RVUs.
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I am not full of it, actually most ED docs know that you can make $200/hr as an IC without breaking a sweat. Call EM care, quest care or whatever group you want and they will have 5 jobs in Texas giving you $200/hr IC min. After 9 months this year, my net pay reads 270k. Sep will be funded 52k by years end, partner distribution of 50k. That will put me at about 450k by years end not including health insurance, med mal, HSA that is paid for. I will be pushing close to 500K this year working 28 hrs a week putting me around $350/hr


I always believe that EM docs are well if not over paid. I mean, you can make $300 K a year working less than 40hr/wk without any overhead, staffing issues, call issues. Its a clean job. When I am home, no one bothers me.

To the person who wants to kill themselves for 10 yrs, you can pull in 1mil a year working like a resident. I know places that are needing Boarded docs paying $350/hr dong 12 hr shifts. You work 22 shifts a month and you got your Mil.

I thought about doing this but given kids and a family it would not work out.

If I was single, coming out of residency, I would jump at this for 5 years. At 35, i would have made 5 mil, 3.5 mil after taxes. Live on 500k for 5 yrs.

Put the 3 mil in a high dividend group of stocks at 5% return and there is an extra 150k a year taxed at 15%. Work 6 days a month and pull in 200k and you have your finances set.
 
emergentmd said:
I am not full of it, actually most ED docs know that you can make $200/hr as an IC without breaking a sweat. Call EM care, quest care or whatever group you want and they will have 5 jobs in Texas giving you $200/hr IC min. After 9 months this year, my net pay reads 270k. Sep will be funded 52k by years end, partner distribution of 50k. That will put me at about 450k by years end not including health insurance, med mal, HSA that is paid for. I will be pushing close to 500K this year working 28 hrs a week putting me around $350/hr


I always believe that EM docs are well if not over paid. I mean, you can make $300 K a year working less than 40hr/wk without any overhead, staffing issues, call issues. Its a clean job. When I am home, no one bothers me.

To the person who wants to kill themselves for 10 yrs, you can pull in 1mil a year working like a resident. I know places that are needing Boarded docs paying $350/hr dong 12 hr shifts. You work 22 shifts a month and you got your Mil.

I thought about doing this but given kids and a family it would not work out.

If I was single, coming out of residency, I would jump at this for 5 years. At 35, i would have made 5 mil, 3.5 mil after taxes. Live on 500k for 5 yrs.

Put the 3 mil in a high dividend group of stocks at 5% return and there is an extra 150k a year taxed at 15%. Work 6 days a month and pull in 200k and you have your finances set.
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Keep going...I'm taking notes
 
secants said:
Keep going...I'm taking notes
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So am I :D

Heck, I'm willing to work neurosurgery hours for a year and have all my loan money paid off. Do that another year to purchase a house. Then, all I need is to work minimum hours to pay the bills and save for retirement.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
So am I :D

Heck, I'm willing to work neurosurgery hours for a year and have all my loan money paid off. Do that another year to purchase a house. Then, all I need is to work minimum hours to pay the bills and save for retirement.
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I think you are overestimating how much you'll take home. A salary of 1 million in my state leaves about 600K after taxes. However, to reach that salary you'd need 3300 hours at 300/hr. That's 64 hours/week for 52 weeks. At a place that works 12s, that's 5 shifts/week with a 6th shift added every third week. Doable? On the surface, maybe. But then bear in mind that 12s are never really 12s - they are at least 12.5 hour shifts. And then add in some extra time for charting. As a new attending you are going to be fairly inefficient, so add an extra hour of paperwork on to almost every shift for the first few months. Plus, unless you are volunteering to be full-time nights, you'll need to allow time to switch from days to nights and nights to days which necessitates 24 hours off at a place that works 12s. So then, you are pretty much working every day except for the days that you switch your schedule. Going at that pace, you are bound to get tired, angry, sloppy, and careless, if not just plain ill.
 
SoCuteMD said:
I think you are overestimating how much you'll take home. A salary of 1 million in my state leaves about 600K after taxes. However, to reach that salary you'd need 3300 hours at 300/hr. That's 64 hours/week for 52 weeks. At a place that works 12s, that's 5 shifts/week with a 6th shift added every third week. Doable? On the surface, maybe. But then bear in mind that 12s are never really 12s - they are at least 12.5 hour shifts. And then add in some extra time for charting. As a new attending you are going to be fairly inefficient, so add an extra hour of paperwork on to almost every shift for the first few months. Plus, unless you are volunteering to be full-time nights, you'll need to allow time to switch from days to nights and nights to days which necessitates 24 hours off at a place that works 12s. So then, you are pretty much working every day except for the days that you switch your schedule. Going at that pace, you are bound to get tired, angry, sloppy, and careless, if not just plain ill.
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Btw, that's basically neurosurgery summed up.
 
happygilmore said:
Btw, that's basically neurosurgery summed up.
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Yes and no. That's neurosurgery residency summed up. I can't say I'm familiar enough with the schedules of neurosurgery attendings to comment (but I can't say I see them around nearly as much as I see the residents).

Working as an attending (and particularly as a new attending) is different, and in my opinion/experience, working 60+ scheduled hours weekly would be near impossible to do, and impossible to do without becoming overworked and sloppy. Sloppy is one thing in residency (annoying to colleagues and attendings), but as an attending it becomes dangerous and gets addressed very quickly by administration.
 
I worked 45 hours a week as an attending exactly once. I wanted to kill myself. My family hated me because I was miserable. Usually, we're around 32ish hrs a week and that's perfectly manageable. I just couldn't see myself working over 40 hours a week without committing suicide.....
 
You can do it if you are single without responsibilities with one purpose to just make alot of cash and then coast the rest of your life.

Otherwise, your family and everyone else would hate you. You would probably hate yourself. But if you are willing to do this, suck it up for 5 yrs and have 3 mil in the bank.

I rather do 3 yrs of residency + 5 yrs doing 20 shifts (12hrs) than doing NSG for 8 yrs.

I come out of the 8 yrs with 3 mil in my bank while the NSG comes out with a load of debt and no cash.

I then work my 10 shifts a month at a freestanding making 200k a yr + my 150k in dividends >>>>> working like a dog as a NSG.

How long do you think the NSG would need to work to catch up to me monetarily? It would be YEARS......

If I could do it all over again and didn't have any responsibility, I would treat my 5 yrs Post grad as 5 yrs of residency. Work my 22 shifts a month and then coast at age 35 doing what I want without any concerns for $$$$.
 
Greenbbs said:
I worked 45 hours a week as an attending exactly once. I wanted to kill myself. My family hated me because I was miserable. Usually, we're around 32ish hrs a week and that's perfectly manageable. I just couldn't see myself working over 40 hours a week without committing suicide.....
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I've had plenty of weeks where I worked 4-5 shifts in a week. At my one shop I work 9s, the other 10s or 12s. Maybe not every month, but often enough that I wouldn't call it rare.

Of course, it was so I could go on vacation, or to a conference, or because my scheduler hates me, but it still happens. Just not every week. F that.
 
Dr.McNinja said:
I've had plenty of weeks where I worked 4-5 shifts in a week. At my one shop I work 9s, the other 10s or 12s. Maybe not every month, but often enough that I wouldn't call it rare.

Of course, it was so I could go on vacation, or to a conference, or because my scheduler hates me, but it still happens. Just not every week. F that.
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I usually work 4 shifts a week...it's a mix of 8's (peds), 9's (adult), and an occasional 12 (triage). 4 shifts a week in a blend of 8's and 9's is really nice.

I also take a hit in salary because I don't work overnights. We have a dedicated night staff that have a shift differential, so when you sign on, they let you choose days/evenings only, a mix of d/e/nights, or nights only. I value my family life and interpersonal relationships (knowing that when I work nights, I'm useless and a monster), so I just do days and evenings. To me, it's worth it to have a normal family life with a fairly normal circadian rhythm (sleep when it's sleep time, etc). Money can't by happiness, but a fairly normal schedule can. It's been 4 years since I worked an overnight, and you couldn't pay me enough to work one at this point.
 
Greenbbs said:
I usually work 4 shifts a week...it's a mix of 8's (peds), 9's (adult), and an occasional 12 (triage). 4 shifts a week in a blend of 8's and 9's is really nice.

I also take a hit in salary because I don't work overnights. We have a dedicated night staff that have a shift differential, so when you sign on, they let you choose days/evenings only, a mix of d/e/nights, or nights only. I value my family life and interpersonal relationships (knowing that when I work nights, I'm useless and a monster), so I just do days and evenings. To me, it's worth it to have a normal family life with a fairly normal circadian rhythm (sleep when it's sleep time, etc). Money can't by happiness, but a fairly normal schedule can. It's been 4 years since I worked an overnight, and you couldn't pay me enough to work one at this point.
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Nice setup. Not at all typical of people working 4 shifts/wk usually, but good for you in finding it.

On an unrelated note, don't you love the assumption that we could all have retired at 35 if we just weren't such p*ssies about working hard?
 
emergentmd said:
You can do it if you are single without responsibilities with one purpose to just make alot of cash and then coast the rest of your life.

Otherwise, your family and everyone else would hate you. You would probably hate yourself. But if you are willing to do this, suck it up for 5 yrs and have 3 mil in the bank.

I rather do 3 yrs of residency + 5 yrs doing 20 shifts (12hrs) than doing NSG for 8 yrs.

I come out of the 8 yrs with 3 mil in my bank while the NSG comes out with a load of debt and no cash.

I then work my 10 shifts a month at a freestanding making 200k a yr + my 150k in dividends >>>>> working like a dog as a NSG.

How long do you think the NSG would need to work to catch up to me monetarily? It would be YEARS......

If I could do it all over again and didn't have any responsibility, I would treat my 5 yrs Post grad as 5 yrs of residency. Work my 22 shifts a month and then coast at age 35 doing what I want without any concerns for $$$$.
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Yeah. Obviously would be better than nsg. After debt is gone and you have things paid for (like a house) then earning even 200k per year is a ton of money.
 
emergentmd said:
You can do it if you are single without responsibilities with one purpose to just make alot of cash and then coast the rest of your life.

Otherwise, your family and everyone else would hate you. You would probably hate yourself. But if you are willing to do this, suck it up for 5 yrs and have 3 mil in the bank.

I rather do 3 yrs of residency + 5 yrs doing 20 shifts (12hrs) than doing NSG for 8 yrs.

I come out of the 8 yrs with 3 mil in my bank while the NSG comes out with a load of debt and no cash.

I then work my 10 shifts a month at a freestanding making 200k a yr + my 150k in dividends >>>>> working like a dog as a NSG.

How long do you think the NSG would need to work to catch up to me monetarily? It would be YEARS......

If I could do it all over again and didn't have any responsibility, I would treat my 5 yrs Post grad as 5 yrs of residency. Work my 22 shifts a month and then coast at age 35 doing what I want without any concerns for $$$$.
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As an M1 this is what I would love to be able to do. I'm guessing in practice however, this does not happen often.
 
Arcan57 said:
Nice setup. Not at all typical of people working 4 shifts/wk usually, but good for you in finding it.

On an unrelated note, don't you love the assumption that we could all have retired at 35 if we just weren't such p*ssies about working hard?
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One flaw in the calculations made above.
Sleep deprivation would have resulted in about 10 lost lawsuits.
Retirement savings gone.
 
DallasCowboys22 said:
As an M1 this is what I would love to be able to do. I'm guessing in practice however, this does not happen often.
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Working 22 12s at a place that pays $300/hr for 5 straight years would require a monastic level of devotion. 22 12s is more shifts than anyone is working in residency. Most people find that level of exposure to the emergency department toxic (LD50 is probably 17-18 12s). To do so at a place that pays $300/hr to new grads is unfathomably painful. For 5 straight years would indicate either psychosis or a level of external responsibility (ie supporting a village in a 3rd world country) that most of us thankfully will never know.

It would involve not having relationships outside the hospital (no significant other, no kids, no significant contact with extended family, inability to follow sports without DVRing everything), significant negative effect on health (no time to work out, most hospital food is unhealthy, no time to recover from circadian shifts, unchecked stress due to lack of emotional support due to having no time to nuture support system), and on top of it you'd be a piss-poor physician because you'd never have time to read and your empathy would be a flaming wreck after the first couple of months.

If that still sounds like something you'd love to do, go for it. Otherwise, I'd suggest searching for a career path you find fulfilling and that is sustainable over the long haul.
 
Sustainability is the key word here. I gladly work for a bit less an hour for improved quality of kife so I can do this job without being a miserable bastard!!
 
Thanks for the reply, when you put it that way there is no way it's worth the extra cash
 
It's true! I was working triage yesterday, and dispo'd 45 patients, and probably laid my hands on 80-90 people total (the remaining being the chest pain/septic/not gonna get dc'd from triage crowd). I went to the back to hand a nurse something and ended up chatting with one of the other docs who started with me to see how his day was going, and he said "Today sucked...the patients were challenging and abusive, and I just couldn't catch a break with anything simple....if we didn't have it so good here, today would have driven me to look for a new job....but we have it so good here that it's so worth it".

It's entirely true. Quality of life sometimes can make the garbage worth it. Mind you, this doc is 3+ yrs out of residency, single, paid his loans off by living frugally (not by murdering himself at work....he never worked more than 15 shifts a month), and now has cut back to half-time because he loves to be spontaneous and travel. The bosses schedule him in a block, essentially leaving him with usually 2+ uninterrupted weeks a month to travel/brew beer/whatever he wants.

Find a job that won't kill you in scheduling (I've never been denied a request and have a set day off every week due to a gap in child care). Find one where you are supported by adequate staffing so you aren't murdered by the workload every day. Find one where you have other help like scribes so you don't burn out on charting. Find one where you get out on time and don't stay forever doing crap. Find one where you can have the quality of life you want.

300$ an hour is tempting, but is it worth sanity, a social life, or a normal family life? Is it worth slaving away 20 12's just to make as much money as possible? Burn-out is real. Working at a breakneck pace has consequences. Your medical career is a marathon, not the 100 yard dash.
 
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