Salary for a Program Director

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residency2010

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Hello All,

What would be a reasonable salary to ask for the role of PD in Northeast region? Mid size community program. Been a faculty at the same place and looks like an opportunity might come up in the near future. Are 2 admin days/week a reasonable ask?
 
There are ACGME minimum academic time requirements for PDs. I think it varies based on program size. Look up that info so you are aware of what must be given. Then you can decide how much more you want to ask for.

Also, make sure that they aren’t counting post-call days as Academic days. I know a place in the Midwest does that and the PD, friend of mine, is nearing their breaking point as a result.
 
Not only ask for just salary (50k) ish stipend for program direct. But demand 2 non clinical days as well

The dedicated 2 non clinical days are key. My friend gets that at small hca community program
 
Thank you all. We are all salaried. I ll probably ask for 2 admin days as per ACGME rules and ll wait to see how much they offer as stipend.
 
At academic institutions it’s zero, but of
Course you get nonclinical time. The VA’s labor map gives 0.25 FTE for a proper PD role.
 
Yes. But considering we r short staffed, not sure how this is going to play out.
 
How many residents would you be overseeing? Up to 20, then one nonclinical day is sufficient. If more than 2 days are sufficient. What kind of administrative support will you have from a competent secretary? How much are colleagues willing to help with teaching out of the OR? These are all intangibles that will make it either easier or more difficult. I would suggest joining SAAAPM if you are serious and go to their conference in Chicago. Feel free to PM me.

SAAAPM Home

www.saaapm.org www.saaapm.org
 
Does anybody have any insight on what it would take to start a residency program? It seems like a lot more work than inheriting one that's already up and running and would require extra incentivization.
 
Have friends who started 2. Both great clinical teachers, CT anes and MD PHD. Don’t publish any. 900k-1mm 2 admin days a week. Pretty rural areas that switched from max-paying for locums, and started IM, surgery and anes residencies.
 
arsene19 said:
Have friends who started 2. Both great clinical teachers, CT anes and MD PHD. Don’t publish any. 900k-1mm 2 admin days a week. Pretty rural areas that switched from max-paying for locums, and started IM, surgery and anes residencies.
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they are making 900k with 2 admin days per week by starting a residency program?
 
Most of the program directors in the UC (Univ of Ca) system are in the 600-700k range but one of the larger programs pays the PD 900k.
 
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nimbus said:
Most of the program directors in the UC (Univ of Ca) system are in the 600-700k range but one of the larger programs pays the PD 900k.
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I didn’t realize how much of a pay boost a PD really gets. I thought it was like a 25K stipend or something
 
nimbus said:
There are other faculty also in that range. 600-700k is an average income nowadays.
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Yes! People are still stuck in this 2016-2020 era in terms of pay scale 450-500k 7-8 weeks off for full time gig for MDs.

Crna average salary has gone close to 50% in 5 years from 150-160k average to 210-230k plus their vacation time has gone from 5-6 weeks to almost double at 10 weeks off.

Apply the crna 40-50% pay raise plus almost double the vacation means the docs really need to be making 600k with 12/13 weeks just to start.
 
Yes, I work at an academic center without a residency program. They want one, but 900K would be a pay cut for me, and starting a residency program sounds like a whole lot of work. That said, I'd likely be taking fewer overnight home calls if I did that.
 
I heard of an offer of the 50th percentile AAMC ACA 50th percentile with non-clinical days. Does anyone have an idea of when it was last updated? Or what is that value? I am sure that it is likely pretty low for today's market.
 
Drwine said:
I heard of an offer of the 50th percentile AAMC ACA 50th percentile with non-clinical days. Does anyone have an idea of when it was last updated? Or what is that value? I am sure that it is likely pretty low for today's market.
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That sounds terrible.

I don't have any desire to go back to an academic practice, but it'd take a 90+ %-ile paycheck to get me to even consider doing the administrative work associated with it.

I filled in as the APD for about half a year, and served as the education coordinator for a couple years, at a small program with essentially zero resident/personnel drama (military hospital). Almost no admin duties beyond grand rounds, guest lecturers, some curriculum stuff. And even that burned me out of teaching after just a few years. It's a ton of extra work, most of it not on the clock.

Running a "residency" program as a source of cheap labor to exploit might be easy (if unethical) but being an educator is a huge amount of work.

50% MGMA? Screw that.
 
Yup it’s a ton of work even with an admin assistant and assistant PD.

There are packaged virtual grand rounds and teaching modules, but there’s a ton of materials development, case tracking, and Acgme check boxes to tick.

Not just sitting stool 3d a week, or overdoing 4:1.

Needs a special skill set
 
arsene19 said:
Yup it’s a ton of work even with an admin assistant and assistant PD.

There are packaged virtual grand rounds and teaching modules, but there’s a ton of materials development, case tracking, and Acgme check boxes to tick.

Not just sitting stool 3d a week, or overdoing 4:1.

Needs a special skill set
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Almost certain my PD during residency did jack ****
 
zizzer said:
I take a lot of call and make more than that right now at the same hospital. They might struggle to offer academic salaries when the entire institution is accustomed to private practice salaries.
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Are you W2? How are you clearing over a million
 
ToKingdomCome said:
Are you W2? How are you clearing over a million
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I'm W2 but probably won't quite clear over a million. It's a W2 job with a lot of compensation tied to money made for call and flexibility to do so. I pick up a lot of extra call. I also make ~$35K for some nonclinical responsibilities and sold back 20% of my PTO for higher salary.
 
zizzer said:
I'm W2 but probably won't quite clear over a million. It's a W2 job with a lot of compensation tied to money made for call and flexibility to do so. I pick up a lot of extra call. I also make ~$35K for some nonclinical responsibilities and sold back 20% of my PTO for higher salary.
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What is a lot of extra call? If the standard is 8 calls per month, are you doing 10 or 12? Wow
 
2010,

With regards to how much time you need. This is from the current version of our program requirements.

Program requirements.jpg


As you can see, what is needed for not only you, but how much support you need (your APDs) depends on the number of residents you have. Stand firm on this...even though there might be times when things are running smoothly...you will need every second you get during certain times of the year and when the inevitable unforeseen event happens.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is your support staff. Are you going to have adequate support staff and the ability to secure a good program coordinator. The job is hard enough without having to do (or more importantly...redo) more administrative work than you need to.

While this is just my opinion, I am assuming you are considering this position because you enjoy being involved in the development and education of the trainees. Making sure you are fairly compensated for your efforts is important, but my advice is to do everything you can to make sure you are put into a position to be successful.
 
Numbtastic said:
What is a lot of extra call? If the standard is 8 calls per month, are you doing 10 or 12? Wow
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I do 7-12 depending on vacation, giving myself at least 2-3 weekends completely off. Most of those are busy, in-house 24 hour high risk obsetrics calls that end up being pretty lucrative and are grueling enough to deter most in our group from picking many up. We have a stipend for liver transplant call too that can be paired with general call. Those stipends and money from the cases adds a nice compensation boost as well.

Post call days are generous enough and the general home call is reasonable enough to where I don't feel like I'm overdoing it with total hours. I just have to do some tough OB shifts and be available on pager overnight a lot.
 
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