Salary question....

[zurned]

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Here's a hypothetical question:

If your salary of all physicians suddently decreased to an average US salary, but you had your student loans forgiven, would you still remain physicians?

 

[goodoldalky]

No

 

[WilcoWorld]

Would I also get average hours and average exposure to liability?

 

[zurned]

Would I also get average hours and average exposure to liability?

Yes,

 

[emergentmd]

Here's a hypothetical question:

If your salary of all physicians suddently decreased to an average US salary, but you had your student loans forgiven, would you still remain physicians?

Heck NO. And you would not get many people other than the most poorly educated wanting to become doctors. Most doctors would tell you this.

Why? Because Doctors are in the top 10% of the most motivated, intelligent, resourceful, hard working class in the US. Asking Top 10% people to take an avg job/avg pay would be a resounding NO.

Now ask the whole populace, then you would get more who would do it.

I graduated top 1% in my Engineering college at a top University. Why would I choose to go to med school for 4 yrs making zero, then residency making 30K(Yes this is what I made), then making 50K a year the rest of my life when I had offers at 70K+ coming out of school 15 yrs ago?

 

[Angry Birds]

Here's a hypothetical question:

If your salary of all physicians suddently decreased to an average US salary, but you had your student loans forgiven, would you still remain physicians?

Why should some of the most educated people in the country get an average salary?

 

[Janders]

No, student loans are only one reason why a "high" salary is needed.

Also mentioned above is the fact you didn't get paid for 4 years of med school, and get paid $40k for 70hr/wk for 3-4 years of residency while accruing debt. During these 8 years you also get no retirement matching, and certainly can't put away a ton of money into tax advantaged accounts.

Compare this with someone who started earning average wages with retirement matching only working 35-40hr/wk 8 years before you... this is another "debt" that must be overcome.

Then of course the fact that working nights, overnights, weekends, and holidays constantly might "earn" you increased pay.

Then of course the risk of malpractice, etc.

Then the real meat of the matter; this is an intellectually and physically rigorous job. One that might "Deserve" more than average pay, to attract and retain quality talent.

 

[EMNation]

Physicians are already severely underpaid - so not only no but hell no.

 

[Xerxes1729]

No. I like my job, but for an average US salary, I could do a lot of other things that would be much less stressful, have better hours, essentially no legal liability, etc. A job where I could take a real lunch break. Have dinner at home every night. Sleep in my bed every night.

 

[filhodeinferno]

Here's a hypothetical question:

If your salary of all physicians suddently decreased to an average US salary, but you had your student loans forgiven, would you still remain physicians?

Hell no. Too much sacrifice. There's a reason why the salary is high, and it isn't just because of student loans.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Here's a hypothetical question:

If your salary of all physicians suddently decreased to an average US salary, but you had your student loans forgiven, would you still remain physicians?

Probably for 8 or 10 days a month. But only because I have something else I can use to provide for my family.

 

[RustedFox]

 

[Psai]

No one would do medicine for average pay. The liability, the stress, the hours just aren't worth it

 

[Akail]

Barely worth it as it is to be honest. I'd work with the contract I have but when I was on the search there were some gigs that made me wonder if I would leave the field if it were the only thing available.

 

[da8s0859q]

No one would do medicine for average pay. The liability, the stress, the hours just aren't worth it

Not to mention what's involved in getting to this point and what the job really entails -- something about which most people are either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant.

Dear wildly idealistic premeds reading this, thinking ever so indignantly that we shouldn't be doctors: if you stick it out and make it to this point, you'll see what we mean.

 

[hoot504]

Dear wildly idealistic premeds reading this, thinking ever so indignantly that we shouldn't be doctors: if you stick it out and make it to this point, you'll see what we mean.

I don't think many people doubt this. It's obviously a stressful job, but I would bet a lot of people underestimate the degree to which it is true.

You will earn every cent you make in this field. It is very tough, very demanding of you physically, emotionally, intellectually. For average pay, the quality of providers would drop so far that I shudder to think what the typical EP would look like. Simply put, this is not a 9 to 5 job, and never will be.

I say this as a PGY-I who is having an absolute blast learning this craft.

 

[emergentmd]

If the gov suddenly mandates all doctors make 50-60K a year and all debts are forgiven, Dr Emergentmd would
1. Show up, punch the clock, wander the hospital partaking on free food, fill my backpack with free food for the family, have lunch and dinner at the hospital with the family, and likely see 1 pt my whole shift. Who is going to fill my job if I quit for 50-60k a year?

2. Quit and would make 6 figures within a year somehow.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

LOL?

 

[GeneralVeers]

Canada did try this in the early 2000's with a salary cap. Granted it was at close to $400K canadian dollars, however it was low enough that orthpedists and specialists worked hard for half the year till they hit the cap, and took the rest of the year off. The cap was removed in 2007 after it was determined that the cap was worsening the shortage of specialists.

At 50K per year I might work enough to max out, maybe 1 shift/month, and spend the rest of the time working at another job.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

So in other words, you are asking whether we'd be willing to accept a job that pays nothing for the first 7 years and 50k/year thereafter. Go ahead on post such a job on Monster or Indeed and see how many takers you get.

 

[throckmortonDO]

If you were going to forgive my loans and say cut physician salaries around 10% ......eh...... maybe. and a very remote maybe as well.
This is coming from someone over 350k in debt from medschool/residency.

Any more than that? No way. Not for the threat of lawsuits, assaultive patients, watching people die, missing milestones in my kids life, press ganey pandering, corporate antics.

If it all went south, like another poster said.... CDL license and Hazmat trucking, maybe a University professor, probably bartender, gentlemens club DJ, car mechanic, animal groomer at petsmart. stuff like that.

 

[RustedFox]

If you were going to forgive my loans and say cut physician salaries around 10% ......eh...... maybe. and a very remote maybe as well.
This is coming from someone over 350k in debt from medschool/residency.

Any more than that? No way. Not for the threat of lawsuits, assaultive patients, watching people die, missing milestones in my kids life, press ganey pandering, corporate antics.

If it all went south, like another poster said.... CDL license and Hazmat trucking, maybe a University professor, probably bartender, gentlemens club DJ, car mechanic, animal groomer at petsmart. stuff like that.

There was another thread on here not long ago that had us all chime in on what we would otherwise be doing if we weren't EPs. I personally think OTR trucker would be pretty cool. Seeing America by the highway, mile by mile. Etc.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

If you were going to forgive my loans and say cut physician salaries around 10% ......eh...... maybe. and a very remote maybe as well.
This is coming from someone over 350k in debt from medschool/residency.

Any more than that? No way.

Give me a break. What else are you qualified to do that pays >$300K. You owe $350K. You're not walking away because you make $320K instead of $360K.

Too many people in this thread haven't yet tried to earn a 6 figure income outside of medicine. Give it a try. See how easy it is. See how much hard work or risk you must put in to do it. Jobs that pay hundreds of thousands often requires sacrifices and intelligence and hard work just like that required to become a good doc. I've got a college roommate with a 7 figure salary managing money. I've also got one that busts his butt doing audits for high five figures and a cop who busts his butt getting shot at for mid five figures. What makes you think if you leave medicine you're going to be the hedge fund manager and not the cop? The statistics suggest you'll be the cop.

 

[Vandalia]

Give me a break. What else are you qualified to do that pays >$300K. You owe $350K. You're not walking away because you make $320K instead of $360K.

Too many people in this thread haven't yet tried to earn a 6 figure income outside of medicine. Give it a try. See how easy it is. See how much hard work or risk you must put in to do it. Jobs that pay hundreds of thousands often requires sacrifices and intelligence and hard work just like that required to become a good doc. I've got a college roommate with a 7 figure salary managing money. I've also got one that busts his butt doing audits for high five figures and a cop who busts his butt getting shot at for mid five figures. What makes you think if you leave medicine you're going to be the hedge fund manager and not the cop? The statistics suggest you'll be the cop.

Two things:

1) For the OP and the replies, it would be more realistic to say "average income for someone with a graduate degree."

2) Second, the career paths outside of medicine are very different. Almost every other career is pyramidal: For every lawyer making $1M as a partner in a "white shoe" law firm, there are 100 scrambling up trying to reach that status. And if you have one bad year with billing, you are gone. The same thing with engineering, management, finance, etc., you are in competition for the top money every hour of the year. One or two slip-ups, and you are off the pyramid. And the things physicians are best at correlate very poorly with the big incomes in other professions. The brilliant engineer is buried in the organization at Boeing while the socially-savvy smooth-talker climbs the corporate ranks to the big salaries. A lot of physicians like to think that they would be at the top of the corporate world. Nope. (Just look around at how well physicians handle health care.)

On the other hand, if you are admitted to an American Medical School you are basically set. Yes, there is some attrition, and, yes, there is competition for residency spots, but once you graduate you are basically guaranteed a significant fraction of the salary of 30 year veteran physicians. Once you graduate residency, unless you are in a competitive elective specialty like plastic surgery, you can to some extent relax. In medicine, the best EM physician at a hospital gets paid basically the same as the 15th best. Competition with your peers is basically over. Again, compared with most other lucrative professions where every day of your career is a fist-fight.

The world outside of medicine is not as cushy as we often think.

 

[zurned]

Two things:

1) For the OP and the replies, it would be more realistic to say "average income for someone with a graduate degree."

2) Second, the career paths outside of medicine are very different. Almost every other career is pyramidal: For every lawyer making $1M as a partner in a "white shoe" law firm, there are 100 scrambling up trying to reach that status. And if you have one bad year with billing, you are gone. The same thing with engineering, management, finance, etc., you are in competition for the top money every hour of the year. One or two slip-ups, and you are off the pyramid. And the things physicians are best at correlate very poorly with the big incomes in other professions. The brilliant engineer is buried in the organization at Boeing while the socially-savvy smooth-talker climbs the corporate ranks to the big salaries. A lot of physicians like to think that they would be at the top of the corporate world. Nope. (Just look around at how well physicians handle health care.)

On the other hand, if you are admitted to an American Medical School you are basically set. Yes, there is some attrition, and, yes, there is competition for residency spots, but once you graduate you are basically guaranteed a significant fraction of the salary of 30 year veteran physicians. Once you graduate residency, unless you are in a competitive elective specialty like plastic surgery, you can to some extent relax. In medicine, the best EM physician at a hospital gets paid basically the same as the 15th best. Competition with your peers is basically over. Again, compared with most other lucrative professions where every day of your career is a fist-fight.

The world outside of medicine is not as cushy as we often think.

Yea, I can't think of too many jobs where you can go in for 10 hours a day and make $2000, and you can be mediocre at it.

 

[throckmortonDO]

Give me a break. What else are you qualified to do that pays >$300K. You owe $350K. You're not walking away because you make $320K instead of $360K.

Too many people in this thread haven't yet tried to earn a 6 figure income outside of medicine. Give it a try. See how easy it is. See how much hard work or risk you must put in to do it. Jobs that pay hundreds of thousands often requires sacrifices and intelligence and hard work just like that required to become a good doc. I've got a college roommate with a 7 figure salary managing money. I've also got one that busts his butt doing audits for high five figures and a cop who busts his butt getting shot at for mid five figures. What makes you think if you leave medicine you're going to be the hedge fund manager and not the cop? The statistics suggest you'll be the cop.

Ok, fair enough, I wouldn't leave for 320k. And believe me I do understand your point, but I definitely didn't say anything about being a hedge fund manager. I said I'd go be a mechanic or something like that. The point I was trying to convey is that if I left, I would do something alot less 'high powered' and with a lot less stress.

Medicine is my 2nd career. Before I went to med school I did make 140k/yr and my wife made 85k. we were comfortable financially and had no debt, but I also did work >80hrs a week. If my field didn't erode, I just may have been still there? hard to say really. I do know what it takes to make that, and it was hard work and alot of hours and sacrifice. Med school +residency of course even harder and alot more sacrifice.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Ok, fair enough, I wouldn't leave for 320k. And believe me I do understand your point, but I definitely didn't say anything about being a hedge fund manager. I said I'd go be a mechanic or something like that. The point I was trying to convey is that if I left, I would do something alot less 'high powered' and with a lot less stress.

Medicine is my 2nd career. Before I went to med school I did make 140k/yr and my wife made 85k. we were comfortable financially and had no debt, but I also did work >80hrs a week. If my field didn't erode, I just may have been still there? hard to say really. I do know what it takes to make that, and it was hard work and alot of hours and sacrifice. Med school +residency of course even harder and alot more sacrifice.

Exactly. And that was $140K. Now imagine doubling that in your old job. How many more hours could you have worked? I'm just saying nobody is going to go be a mechanic making $40K just because EM goes from a $360K job to a $320K job. If it goes to a $60K job? Sure, I'll buy it.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Sure, when every athlete in the MLB, NBA, NFL, and NHL as well as every congressman in the country accepts the average wage. Until then, pay me what I'm worth. And if all that happens, sure pay physicians an average wage... and I'll just move to another country where they are willing to pay me what I'm worth.