San Juan Bautista MD school loses accreditation

[HumbleMD]

Sorry that it really bothers you, but I would still not accept an acceptance from that school, even if I applied. Which I didn't.

Seems like that would have actually been a good decision. Schools earns accreditation in '07, loses it now. What an illustrious career.

For those with knotted undergarments - why didn't YOU apply to SJ? I imagine it's probably because you think you can do better. Nothing wrong with that.

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough. As the case may be it seems like so much recreational hand-wringing and I really don't want my physician getting 25% on his/her standardized tests.

Your comment here is no less myopic than your previous post. I wouldn't expect you to yet, but eventually you'll be concerned with more than medical school admissions. No, I didn't apply there. It's impossible for everyone to be a "top 10%" doctor. You need to become more comfortable with the bell-curve that is medicine.

At some point you may care for the greater good, or the US medical system as a whole. We have a responsibility to our entire nation, including Puerto Rico. If that's too much for your ego to stretch, realize that after 4 years, you start to feel camaraderie with other medical students, no matter the "tier" of where they are.

Sure, you're a top candidate (you can't assert yourself as a top medical student, or even acceptee, yet). I've found my most intelligent and accomplished colleagues never need to talk about themselves; their records (and other's words) do it for them. You should try this method out for a week or two.

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[CodeBlu]

Great post. While the the fault of closure falls squarely on the school, and while the LCME withdrawal of accreditation was for the best, the lack of compassion from posters like centrigeugle is gross. How much one can correlate standardized test scores to actual performance in career is questionable at best, however the aforementioned lack of empathy displayed here towards students who have spent tens of thousands of dollars, and years of their lives, towards pursuing their dream is indicative of people who I would be afraid of in any sort of position where care for people is paramount. "You were diagnosed with emphysema and yet you continued to smoke, in spite of the risks? Why do you even deserve my care or time?"

Further, in regards to fourth years and third years who've passed their step1, I fail to see how a low MCAT has anything to do with anything. THEY PASSED THEIR FIRST LICENSING EXAM, you guys have no place passing judgement on them when you guys haven't even gotten into a medical school...

It's the American education farm mentality. Teaching to the test rather than teaching skills. Centrigeugle's post is grossly misinformed and way off base.

Your comment here is no less myopic than your previous post. I wouldn't expect you to yet, but eventually you'll be concerned with more than medical school admissions. No, I didn't apply there. It's impossible for everyone to be a "top 10%" doctor. You need to become more comfortable with the bell-curve that is medicine.

At some point you may care for the greater good, or the US medical system as a whole. We have a responsibility to our entire nation, including Puerto Rico. If that's too much for your ego to stretch, realize that after 4 years, you start to feel camaraderie with other medical students, no matter the "tier" of where they are.

Sure, you're a top candidate (you can't assert yourself as a top medical student, or even acceptee, yet). I've found my most intelligent and accomplished colleagues never need to talk about themselves; their records (and other's words) do it for them. You should try this method out for a week or two.

If you need to say you're smart, you probably aren't. In medicine, there's a wide variety of people... one of those types of people are characterized by the following...

-Bone shattering inadequacy in a professional sense
-Look great on paper, but have zero compassion or clinical know how
-Mommy/Daddy issues
-Self-esteem issues (these people are likely to put others down to make themselves feel better)
-They're the people that you don't like spending more than 1-2 mins of your time with, in fear that their dementor like personality will devour you whole.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Sorry that it really bothers you, but I would still not accept an acceptance from that school, even if I applied. Which I didn't.

Seems like that would have actually been a good decision. Schools earns accreditation in '07, loses it now. What an illustrious career.

For those with knotted undergarments - why didn't YOU apply to SJ? I imagine it's probably because you think you can do better. Nothing wrong with that.

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough. As the case may be it seems like so much recreational hand-wringing and I really don't want my physician getting 25% on his/her standardized tests.

too bad you'll never know what your physician scored on his/her steps..

 

[235788]

too bad you'll never know what your physician scored on his/her steps..

Yeah but chances are you'll know where he went to school.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yeah but chances are you'll know where he went to school.

that has little to do with his scores

 

[NurWollen]

This really is tragic. I hope that all of SJB's students, especially their 4th years, can find spots at LCME schools where they can finish their education, get their degree, and get into a good residency. This is so unfair to the students.

I seem to remember that before 2007, SJB was accredited by the Puerto Rico Medical Board or another local body, and that graduates were only eligible to practice in Puerto Rico.

I hope UCC, Ponce, and UPR are taking steps to prevent the SJB fallout from affecting their respected programs.

There have been a few intances, IIRC, of LCME schools being put on probation. I'm surprised SJB didn't get some kind of warning and oversight by the LCME to ensure they rose to expectations.

 

[Will2Survive]

That really sucks, I hope when I apply to UPR nothing like that happens.

 

[Gigantron]

Further, in regards to fourth years and third years who've passed their step1, I fail to see how a low MCAT has anything to do with anything. THEY PASSED THEIR FIRST LICENSING EXAM, you guys have no place passing judgement on them when you guys haven't even gotten into a medical school...

This is because the people who pass judgement are pre-med. PRE-FREAKING-MED. The MCAT is the only valid example they can give in a flawed deliberation to elevate their own arguments, as they have little to zero clout with most issues when it actually comes to being in medical school. Plus, the MCAT is the only fool proof way to boost your ego when, in reality, nobody gives a rat's ass.

Notice how just about EVERY SINGLE medical student in this thread (along with a few pre-meds) posted a sympathetic gesture, especially toward the 3rd and 4th years? That's because they (the medical students) get it. They get how hard it is to have to go through pre-clinicals, pass your step 1 exam, and make it through third year fully in tact. That is something I will, hopefully, be able to go through one day too.

But to have that pulled under your feet with a very SMALL chance of being able to transfer? That REALLY sucks. Much more so when you have self-righteous pre-meds bashing while basing this whole situation on MCAT scores.

To those third and fourth years, the MCAT is probably a JOKE to them. But, again...the almighty pre-med wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And heaven forbid you point that out, lest you incur the wrath of a pre-med.

 

[235788]

Great post. While the the fault of closure falls squarely on the school, and while the LCME withdrawal of accreditation was for the best, the lack of compassion from posters like centrigeugle is gross. How much one can correlate standardized test scores to actual performance in career is questionable at best, however the aforementioned lack of empathy displayed here towards students who have spent tens of thousands of dollars, and years of their lives, towards pursuing their dream is indicative of people who I would be afraid of in any sort of position where care for people is paramount. "You were diagnosed with emphysema and yet you continued to smoke, in spite of the risks? Why do you even deserve my care or time?"

Further, in regards to fourth years and third years who've passed their step1, I fail to see how a low MCAT has anything to do with anything. THEY PASSED THEIR FIRST LICENSING EXAM, you guys have no place passing judgement on them when you guys haven't even gotten into a medical school...

Well this is the pre-med forum. Chances are many of these "pre-med's" (especially if they are ambitious enough to participate on here) will get acceptance when their time comes. Everyone has the right to bash a school and give opinions regarding programs, even if they are uninformed. If pre-meds had to wait for an acceptance before they could "pass judgement" this forum would be dead. Yes they pass the licensing exams, but the say the quality of education is on the same standard as other US schools is just silly.

I'm sure there are bashers on the allopathic version also. I dont want to spend the time reading it though.

I went to a state school and for me to argue that my education and standard of education is consistent with schools such a upenn is also silly. I don't relentless pretend my education is equal, and when people say its not, I agree.

 

[Stumpyman]

I know too many doctors on a personal level that went to medical schools abroad then came to practice in the US. Some are great, but most aren't. My uncle, who is a neurologist in the US, went to some tiny med school in the middle of a third world country. He was suspended twice and almost expelled (he had to bribe some school officials to stay in the school). He later got US residency and passed his USMLE. Now he makes well over 400K.

The thing is, it really doesn't matter where they went to medical school (broad statement, but still it's true to some degree), as long as they have a license to practice in the US.

 

[235788]

I know too many doctors on a personal level that went to medical schools abroad then came to practice in the US. Some are great, but most aren't. My uncle, who is a neurologist in the US, went to some tiny med school in the middle of a third world country. He was suspended twice and almost expelled (he had to bribe some school officials to stay in the school). He later got US residency and passed his USMLE. Now he makes well over 400K.

The thing is, it really doesn't matter where they went to medical school (broad statement, but still it's true to some degree), as long as they have a license to practice in the US.

On a side note, there is no way i believe a neurologist makes that much.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

On a side note, there is no way i believe a neurologist makes that much.

You don't believe in outliers?

 

[mishaS]

Well this is the pre-med forum. Chances are many of these "pre-med's" (especially if they are ambitious enough to participate on here) will get acceptance when their time comes. Everyone has the right to bash a school and give opinions regarding programs, even if they are uninformed. If pre-meds had to wait for an acceptance before they could "pass judgement" this forum would be dead. Yes they pass the licensing exams, but the say the quality of education is on the same standard as other US schools is just silly.

I'm sure there are bashers on the allopathic version also. I dont want to spend the time reading it though.

I went to a state school and for me to argue that my education and standard of education is consistent with schools such a upenn is also silly. I don't relentless pretend my education is equal, and when people say its not, I agree.

My point isn't to tell people they don't have a right to post, only to point out how ill informed some of the judgments being passed are. Certainly the quality of education given to students is not equal at all schools, with this school obviously falling bellow the standards the LCME set, I would argue that the education is not as different as you might imagine.

While trends can be found, to make blanket assumptions is just silly. I can use myself as an example. I blew of HS and had no chance of getting into the best state school, which is very highly ranked, and ended up going to an extremely uncompetitive school. I did well on my MCAT in spite of this, and right now, I'm doing better than most of the people at my med school who went to said prestigious school. I don't mean to brag, especially because the premeds from the prestigious school overall definitely do better than at my school, and get into better schools but only to point out that there are plenty of exceptions which should not be ignored. I'm sure there are plenty of brilliant and hard working students that either blew off undergrad at first, and really hurt their chances of getting into medical school or just aren't great standardized test takers and were unable to do well on the MCAT. If given another shot, with a school that accepts poorer performing students and weeds out those who shouldn't be doctors, many great doctors, who otherwise would be passed over, would be able to actually practice.

The differences between medical schools in terms of education quality are even less distinct. The LCME won't allow for crappy medical schools to stay licensed (as obviously demonstrated by the subject of this thread) and, as such, you won't see a sea of difference between medical students who get through the "best" vs the "worst" medical school. The highest ranking schools differentiate themselves in their research offerings in terms of abilities to get grants, their abilities to attract brilliant researchers, and better facilities, but that all seems to relate very minimally to actual clinical competence.

 

[QuizzicalApe]

You don't believe in outliers?

What, your bell curve doesn't have two straight sides with a curved top?

 

[Stumpyman]

On a side note, there is no way i believe a neurologist makes that much.

He owns a few clinics

 

[mauberley]

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough.

Man, you sure know us! Golly gee!

 

[mauberley]

If pre-meds had to wait for an acceptance before they could "pass judgement" this forum would be dead.

You must not be paying close attention to the derp in this forum.

 

[centrigeugle]

kumbaya.jpeg

You're right, guys! Where you go to medical school doesn't matter in the least - thanks to this great certification system, everybody is completely equal and can be fairly compared, since every school is the same!

Oh, wait. Except that it's always these low(est) ranked schools with horrible statistics who get in licensing trouble. Oh wait, except that those same low-ranked schools tend to produce far more primary care physicians and far fewer competitive specialists.

Like I keep saying - it definitely sucks for the students; but when you attend the worst school in the country you forfeit the right to be completely surprised. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I'm trolling.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

kumbaya.jpeg

You're right, guys! Where you go to medical school doesn't matter in the least - thanks to this great certification system, everybody is completely equal and can be fairly compared, since every school is the same!

Oh, wait. Except that it's always these low(est) ranked schools with horrible statistics who get in licensing trouble. Oh wait, except that those same low-ranked schools tend to produce far more primary care physicians and far fewer competitive specialists.

Like I keep saying - it definitely sucks for the students; but when you attend the worst school in the country you forfeit the right to be completely surprised. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I'm trolling.

But what do the grades of the students have to do with the situation? Their main hospital got closed and as such they no longer had proper rotation sites... If any other medical school's main hospital got closed I can assure you they likely would be shut down as well.

 

[Sutton]

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough.

Huh? The underrepresented students there are White. Just saying.

 

[235788]

But what do the grades of the students have to do with the situation? Their main hospital got closed and as such they no longer had proper rotation sites... If any other medical school's main hospital got closed I can assure you they likely would be shut down as well.

how does a hospital close? That is unheard of. Thats like closing the court-house

 

[Bacchus]

how does a hospital close? That is unheard of. Thats like closing the court-house

First the OB suites leave, then the surgical suites, next the ICUs start shutting down. Before you know it, the hospital site is strictly doing outpatient medicine and looks like a senior center on a good day.

 

[mishaS]

Oh, wait. Except that it's always these low(est) ranked schools with horrible statistics who get in licensing trouble. Oh wait, except that those same low-ranked schools tend to produce far more primary care physicians and far fewer competitive specialists.

As it has been stated already in this thread, twice, the grades of the students had nothing to do with the loss of accreditation, and if I'm not mistaken there are no other situations where an LCME accredited school has lost that accreditation.

And so what if lower ranked schools tend to produce more primacy care physicians? Are they somehow less of a doctor than a specialist? What is your hierarchy of most doctor to least doctor? Because derm is so competitive, are they the most deserving of the title doctor? You do realize that with certain exceptions, the competitiveness of specialties is only related to demand created by medical students for limited positions right? I have an outdated book on how to get into residencies, in it ranks anesthesiology to be one of the easiest residencies to get into, while internal medicine ranks up there with derm.

Nobody is saying there isn't a difference between top 10 medical schools and DO schools in terms of research opportunity, networking through clerkships and externships, and name recognition, but from a content standpoint, there isn't all that much difference. We all have to learn the same things, and it is far more on us to learn it and understand it than it is on our lecturers to teach it. Harvard will not be able to better teach your the manual dexterity necessary for surgery, nor will it give you more hearing equity for auscultation, or give you greater empathy towards your patients, or any number of things which you will have to learn yourself, through experience, than any other medical school.

Please, also, take your elitist attitude to your interviews; I'm sure the great medical schools would love to see how awesome you are and why you are awesome enough school and should be there instead of another unworthy school, and should you make it in, remember that nurses love nothing more than being told matter of factly that you're hot ****, and that they should listen to you unquestioningly.

 

[RookTookIt]

how does a hospital close? That is unheard of. Thats like closing the court-house

This is not at all unheard of. Check this out. Six hospitals have closed in NYC in the past three years and more have plans to close in the next year or so.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

how does a hospital close? That is unheard of. Thats like closing the court-house

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious....

 

[centrigeugle]

Nobody is saying there isn't a difference between top 10 medical schools and DO schools in terms of research opportunity, networking through clerkships and externships, and name recognition, but from a content standpoint, there isn't all that much difference. We all have to learn the same things, and it is far more on us to learn it and understand it than it is on our lecturers to teach it.

Until your school closes down, you mean.

Look, guys, I'm not trying to harsh on the students here. They clearly got a raw deal. What I'm questioning is the professionalism and overall quality of an institution that accepts such (objectively) uncompetitive students. Howard is another example of a school we're currently discussing that has low statistics and dubious quality.

My comment about primary care physicians regards the ability of the school's students to place into desirable specialties. It has nothing to do with who is "more of a doctor" and everything to do with the uncomfortable fact that some institutions are better than others. We're not just comparing top 10 MD programs with DO schools, as you suggest. We're looking at the worst school, in terms of the student body's numbers.

I'll bet you my right thumb that the Step scores and residency placements correlate quite closely with LizzyM scores.

 

[music2doc]

Wow, this sucks. I can't imagine what it must be like for these students. I hope other schools will have compassion on them and find space for the students.

As for the "low MCAT" argument I keep seeing, I think it is crucial we keep in mind that most of these students are Spanish-speaking with English as a second language. It really comes as no surprise that their MCAT scores are low. Further, they live in a different culture. There is almost certainly some cultural bias involved as well (apart from just the language barrier). The fact that the MS3/4s have passed Step 1 tells us all we need to know about their ability to become physicians. Honestly, by losing a PR school, we are losing an important source of Spanish-speaking physicians.

Does anyone know whether SJB can reapply for LCME accreditation? Is there a timeout period of sorts before they are eligible again?

 

[HumbleMD]

Until your school closes down, you mean.

Look, guys, I'm not trying to harsh on the students here. They clearly got a raw deal. What I'm questioning is the professionalism and overall quality of an institution that accepts such (objectively) uncompetitive students. Howard is another example of a school we're currently discussing that has low statistics and dubious quality.

My comment about primary care physicians regards the ability of the school's students to place into desirable specialties. It has nothing to do with who is "more of a doctor" and everything to do with the uncomfortable fact that some institutions are better than others. We're not just comparing top 10 MD programs with DO schools, as you suggest. We're looking at the worst school, in terms of the student body's numbers.

I'll bet you my right thumb that the Step scores and residency placements correlate quite closely with LizzyM scores.

If you saw beyond your Derm aspirations, you'd realize that medicine needs a diversity of people, in a diversity of practices, in a diversity of geographic areas. Puerto Rico has an unmet need in the US. Primary care has an unmet need in the US. It's these attitudes (which apparently start before medical school) that have created the monster of healthcare problems we currently have. When you are educated on the status of healthcare and medical education beyond your handy dandy MSAR, you'll see issues like this like the medical students and residents that have commented on this thread. Also, it would behoove you to begin listening to those more senior than you. Medical education is built on this paradigm.

P.S.
I can't wait to see where you end up in May. If you want to have a numbers/prestige pissing match, I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[Morsetlis]

Primary care has an unmet need which most of SDN posters will not be meeting.

 

[centrigeugle]

If you saw beyond your Derm aspirations...

P.S.
I can't wait to see where you end up in May. If you want to have a numbers/prestige pissing match, I'd be happy to oblige.

Strawman more, please. Bitter much?

 

[HumbleMD]

Strawman more, please. Bitter much?

Wow, you still don't get it. Naive much?

P.S. I'll take that as a concession on the pissing match.

 

[music2doc]

Primary care has an unmet need which most of SDN posters will not be meeting.

Kind of sad.... Although I bet more of us SDN pre-meds will end up in primary care specialties than expect to. I mean...not everyone can go into a ROAD specialty!

 

[centrigeugle]

So we've seamlessly transitioned from "there are lots of unresolved issues here" to "it has nothing to do with the students" to "your high scores don't qualify you for anything" to "you don't know what you're talking about, premed n00b" to "omg, my scores are better than yours so therefore I win." Impressive show of superior maturity, bro.

I'm going to step out of this thread since you're too busy frothing at the mouth and falling over yourself to prove me wrong, but just remember that you're the gigantic hypocrite challenging me to a pissing match, not vice versa. <3

 

[HumbleMD]

So we've seamlessly transitioned from "there are lots of unresolved issues here" to "it has nothing to do with the students" to "your high scores don't qualify you for anything" to "you don't know what you're talking about, premed n00b" ...

What a lovely summary of the learning points from this thread.

Now,

 

[mauberley]

So we've seamlessly transitioned from "there are lots of unresolved issues here" to "it has nothing to do with the students" to "your high scores don't qualify you for anything" to "you don't know what you're talking about, premed n00b" to "omg, my scores are better than yours so therefore I win." Impressive show of superior maturity, bro.

I'm going to step out of this thread since you're too busy frothing at the mouth and falling over yourself to prove me wrong, but just remember that you're the gigantic hypocrite challenging me to a pissing match, not vice versa. <3

I did like how your avatar rather accurately reflected my response on reading your initial post.

 

[gettheleadout]

Until your school closes down, you mean.

Look, guys, I'm not trying to harsh on the students here. They clearly got a raw deal. What I'm questioning is the professionalism and overall quality of an institution that accepts such (objectively) uncompetitive students. Howard is another example of a school we're currently discussing that has low statistics and dubious quality.

My comment about primary care physicians regards the ability of the school's students to place into desirable specialties. It has nothing to do with who is "more of a doctor" and everything to do with the uncomfortable fact that some institutions are better than others. We're not just comparing top 10 MD programs with DO schools, as you suggest. We're looking at the worst school, in terms of the student body's numbers.

I'll bet you my right thumb that the Step scores and residency placements correlate quite closely with LizzyM scores.

What does the quality of a school's student body have to do with the school's ability to provide quality education?

 

[Morzh]

That sucks so bad. The AAMC has put out a FAQ for SJB applicants/students/recent graduates. https://www.aamc.org/students/sjb/

Hopefully most of the students will be able to transfer. It sucks most for 4th years because I don't know if you can transfer mid-school year... if not they will have to apply for transfer next summer and graduate 2013 instead of 2012.

I would be so pissed if I were there.

According to this letter, it seems like this was not a surprise to the SJB administration. The initial decision had been made some time ago and they have been appealing it. The letter that was sent on Oct 3 says that their "final appeal" had been denied. So they kept it hush-hush, rather than being forthcoming from the beginning. If 6 months ago they had told their 3rd years (now MS4s) that there was a very likely probability that their degree would be worthless, perhaps they could have transferred over the summer and not be stranded like they are now.

Edit: RE the whole "not surprised because they have a low MCAT average"... in addition to what has been said already ad nauseam, I'll just add that this is not relevant to the situation. There are valid points made by both sides, but it doesn't matter. LCME accreditation is an issue of trust and a guaranteed minimum standard. This would be like having your life savings in a FDIC insured bank, only to have the bank lose is FDIC eligibility and default all at once. Accredited means you can trust the school and that it is safe to invest your time and money in obtaining an education there. An institution never loses accreditation without warning. If the trust was in jeopardy then it was grossly negligent in my opinion for the school/LCME not to fully disclose that information to students before it was too late.

 

[Gigantron]

I'm going to step out of this thread since you're too busy frothing at the mouth and falling over yourself to prove me wrong, but just remember that you're the gigantic hypocrite challenging me to a pissing match, not vice versa. <3

Wow, now you're just raging. You're an object that pumps out way more energy than you pump in. We poke you (expertly) and you explode with anger. I must harness your energy output. Do you swing your fists around and roar in real life when you're raging? Can I hook&#65279; that up to an alternator...or a turbine of some kind?

Also:

Oh wait, except that those same low-ranked schools tend to produce far more primary care physicians and far fewer competitive specialists.

Way to insult an entire field of medicine by making a gross generalization, bro.

 

[link2swim06]

As it has been stated already in this thread, twice, the grades of the students had nothing to do with the loss of accreditation, and if I'm not mistaken there are no other situations where an LCME accredited school has lost that accreditation.

And so what if lower ranked schools tend to produce more primacy care physicians? Are they somehow less of a doctor than a specialist? What is your hierarchy of most doctor to least doctor? Because derm is so competitive, are they the most deserving of the title doctor? You do realize that with certain exceptions, the competitiveness of specialties is only related to demand created by medical students for limited positions right? I have an outdated book on how to get into residencies, in it ranks anesthesiology to be one of the easiest residencies to get into, while internal medicine ranks up there with derm.

Nobody is saying there isn't a difference between top 10 medical schools and DO schools in terms of research opportunity, networking through clerkships and externships, and name recognition, but from a content standpoint, there isn't all that much difference. We all have to learn the same things, and it is far more on us to learn it and understand it than it is on our lecturers to teach it. Harvard will not be able to better teach your the manual dexterity necessary for surgery, nor will it give you more hearing equity for auscultation, or give you greater empathy towards your patients, or any number of things which you will have to learn yourself, through experience, than any other medical school.

Please, also, take your elitist attitude to your interviews; I'm sure the great medical schools would love to see how awesome you are and why you are awesome enough school and should be there instead of another unworthy school, and should you make it in, remember that nurses love nothing more than being told matter of factly that you're hot ****, and that they should listen to you unquestioningly.

it has happened in the late 80s i believe.

 

[alwaysaangel]

it has happened in the late 80s i believe.

Oral Roberts University. But it was not that the med school lost accreditation. It closed on its own for financial reasons. LCME has put many schools on probation over the years, sadly SJB is the first to actually have their accreditation pulled.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=64485

 

[Chrome19]

Wow, now you're just raging. You're an object that pumps out way more energy than you pump in. We poke you (expertly) and you explode with anger. I must harness your energy output. Do you swing your fists around and roar in real life when you're raging? Can I hook&#65279; that up to an alternator...or a turbine of some kind?

Also:



Way to insult an entire field of medicine by making a gross generalization, bro.

I can summarize centrigeugle's disparate but slightly related claims:

1) Howard College of Medicine's education is of dubious quality.
2) People who get into primary care and URM schools are generally not competitive.
3)Primary care is for the idiots in medical school (in the general sense).
4) "URM" schools generally suck.

centrigeugle is likely an elitist cocky fellow, or an intellectually insecure chap needing to prove he's smart. Then again, I think he got a 36 on the MCAT, so without a doubt, he's supremely intelligent. He has become a god amongst men.

We should all respect his great intellect, wisdom, incisive approach to problems and insight on this thread. If any of you disagree with him, you are wrong, foolish, and intellectually incompetent.

I personally would love to have him as a peer. As a stupid fellow, I might be able to learn a lot of wisdom from him thus elevating myself from the trenches of ignorance on towards the holy grail of academic and intellectual greatness.

By any measure, centrigeugle's claims are accurate.

 

[flodhi1]

Holier than thou? Too good for this school?

Yes, I am (or maybe "was" is a more appropriate term) too good for that school.

Seriously. An MCAT of 20 is the 20-24 percentile score according to last year's statistics. Under the lowest quartile for all test takers. You could take off any section score and I'd still be significantly above that. I'm actually amazed a school with students who average 20 on the MCAT (which means lots of them got below that) could even exist.

Maybe you feel that any medical school should be inscrutable by somebody who isn't in one yet - but I absolutely would not attend that school. Look, it definitely sucks for those students who've just lost a lot of time and money on this situation - as surely nobody expects something like this.

But when you're attending the worst school in the country...stuff happens. Maybe they should have gotten higher scores. A 20 is just terrible.

Are you serious right now?

So we've seamlessly transitioned from "there are lots of unresolved issues here" to "it has nothing to do with the students" to "your high scores don't qualify you for anything" to "you don't know what you're talking about, premed n00b" to "omg, my scores are better than yours so therefore I win." Impressive show of superior maturity, bro.

I'm going to step out of this thread since you're too busy frothing at the mouth and falling over yourself to prove me wrong, but just remember that you're the gigantic hypocrite challenging me to a pissing match, not vice versa. <3

Weren't you the guy with your stats in your signature ranting about how the MCAT makes you so superior. You kind sir are a tool.

"The weather today is INTP with smatterings of Judgement in the evenings.
3.74c/3.8s/36S"

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Until your school closes down, you mean.

Look, guys, I'm not trying to harsh on the students here. They clearly got a raw deal. What I'm questioning is the professionalism and overall quality of an institution that accepts such (objectively) uncompetitive students. Howard is another example of a school we're currently discussing that has low statistics and dubious quality.

My comment about primary care physicians regards the ability of the school's students to place into desirable specialties. It has nothing to do with who is "more of a doctor" and everything to do with the uncomfortable fact that some institutions are better than others. We're not just comparing top 10 MD programs with DO schools, as you suggest. We're looking at the worst school, in terms of the student body's numbers.

I'll bet you my right thumb that the Step scores and residency placements correlate quite closely with LizzyM scores.

You'll likely be losing your right thumb then. Step scores are more based on your individual preparation rather than the school itself, IMO. And, to reaffirm what others have been saying, you really have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[ppappui]

Well, well, What a surprise. a poster-I-will-not-name being the know-it-all I can say all the crap I want cuz I'm better than you people and being grilled for it

 

[MartletMD]

Sorry that it really bothers you, but I would still not accept an acceptance from that school, even if I applied. Which I didn't.

Seems like that would have actually been a good decision. Schools earns accreditation in '07, loses it now. What an illustrious career.

For those with knotted undergarments - why didn't YOU apply to SJ? I imagine it's probably because you think you can do better. Nothing wrong with that.

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough. As the case may be it seems like so much recreational hand-wringing and I really don't want my physician getting 25% on his/her standardized tests.

I wouldn't have applied for one and one reason only: I do not, nor will I ever be able to, speak technical Spanish fluently.

And, as for the MCAT score thing: McGill no longer requires MCAT scores because it is not administered in French and thus puts francophones who might not be able to pick up subtleties at an enormous disadvantage. And I think most people would consider McGill a "good medical school." Just a thought.

 

[Chrome19]

And, as for the MCAT score thing: McGill no longer requires MCAT scores because it is not administered in French and thus puts francophones who might not be able to pick up subtleties at an enormous disadvantage. And I think most people would consider McGill a "good medical school." Just a thought.

Great point. If you weren't born speaking English or are weak in it, you'll struggle with the MCAT. The BS section has literally become like a mix of verbal and logic. The only difference between it and the VR section is that VR is more wishy-washy and involves shades of reasoning, which makes the VR harder IMO. However, if you submit MCAT scores, McGill will take it into consideration.

 

[firstborn]

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is a tragedy for the kids in Puerto Rico who invested a huge amount of time an money into their medical education and now may have nothing to show for it but debt that rivals a large home mortgage. It is also a tragedy for the entire island. There will likely be fewer MDs and begin to suffer more health disparities and inadequate care coverage.

MCAT scores had nothing to do with losing accreditation; it was the school's own fault for not having adequate clinical spots. My MCAT score certainly doesn't help my school shape its curriculum.

Before you start talking about school caliber and quality based on MCAT scores, you should at least have an acceptance in hand (or even better, a year or two of medical school under your belt). All other's comments are entirely naive.

Unscrupulous "mainlander rejects with money" (which by the way, you haven't proven yourself above) go to the Caribbean, not the Puerto Rico US program. I certainly don't want a pre-medical student as my doctor.

 

[mishaS]

Great point. If you weren't born speaking English or are weak in it, you'll struggle with the MCAT. The BS section has literally become like a mix of verbal and logic. The only difference between it and the VR section is that VR is more wishy-washy and involves shades of reasoning, which makes the VR harder IMO. However, if you submit MCAT scores, McGill will take it into consideration.

I know a guy who is extremely hard working, did very well in his classes, did brilliant research, and was the speaker for our (lib arts/sciences) college at graduation. He also is extremely passionate because of his story - he's African and lost an eye to a benign tumor because there wasn't a surgeon available to excise it - and wants to go be a surgeon in his home country to save other people from what he had to endure. He bombed his MCAT. Just bombed it. I was actually very surprised because I know how smart he actually is (well above me), but I think a major aspect of it was the fact that English is his second language. Of all the people I know, he should be in medicine above all others, and I hope he isn't denied the opportunity because of a language barrier.

 

[LizzyM]

You'll likely be losing your right thumb then. Step scores are more based on your individual preparation rather than the school itself, IMO. And, to reaffirm what others have been saying, you really have no clue what you're talking about.

MCAT scores do correlate with Step 1 scores and undergrad gpa does correlate with Step 1 scores (I've heard it said that they are the best predictor) and so to the extent that LizzyM score is a composite of MCAT and gpa then yes, LizzyM score is a predictor of Step 1 score. Keep in mind that this is a correlation that works on a population basis but the variation is great enough that you aren't going to be able to use it to make a reliable prediction of Step 1 score for an individual.

 

[Chrome19]

I know a guy who is extremely hard working, did very well in his classes, did brilliant research, and was the speaker for our (lib arts/sciences) college at graduation. He also is extremely passionate because of his story - he's African and lost an eye to a benign tumor because there wasn't a surgeon available to excise it - and wants to go be a surgeon in his home country to save other people from what he had to endure. He bombed his MCAT. Just bombed it. I was actually very surprised because I know how smart he actually is (well above me), but I think a major aspect of it was the fact that English is his second language. Of all the people I know, he should be in medicine above all others, and I hope he isn't denied the opportunity because of a language barrier.

How low did he score? If he can manage to get his score to 25+ he has a a legitimate shot. Since he was your speaker I imagine his GPA will be very high.

Tell him to get a few books on informal logic, read advanced texts in English and learn to apply scientific concepts on the fly. Once he has done this, he can start reviewing again with EK (especially for verbal) or TBR (as per SDN's proposal) and he'll score 25+. Guaranteed!