Sanders' Proposal to Eliminate to Forgive Student Loan Debt

[deleted480308]

Personally, I acknowledge the existence of "human rights" which are things everyone is entitled to without having to earn, and receiving the benefits or services from these rights don't constitute a "gift". The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights was adopted by the UN in the 60s, and commits it's members to guarantee the right to work in just and favorable conditions, social protection, adequate standard of living, the highest attainable standards of physical and mental well-being, education, and the enjoyment of benefits of cultural freedom and scientific progress. Lets have the debate about whether you think higher education is a human right and not just something that people who can afford it can obtain, but we have to first agree that there are numerous things and rights that people are entitled to without having to earn them or be gifted them.

We don’t agree. There is no innate human right to goods/services being provided to us by our neighbors.

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[brownsfan999]

climate science is not good science. My complaint is that they have made histrionic predictions, to scare people into agreeing with them, none ever playing out. They are all computer models
Im also tired of being lectured about being a science denier, when climate science is unable to answer basic questions like
What is the optimal temp, CO2, level for the planet?
What is the end point to ontervention achieve this goal?
How has the planet warmed and cooled several times without mankind's influence?
People are flatulent belchers too, how many people can the planet sustain?
If we are going to spend trillions of dollars, should we not have clear endpoints for any intervention? That's how science works right?
Science should be able to easily explain these questions.
As I said earlier, approach me, ( not you, you have been quite polite),from an environmental level, not a science denier , impunimg my intelligence or use scare mongering to do the get me to go along. No one denies the planet is warming right now, but we had a little ice age about 400 yrs ago, science should be able to easily explain that. They should be able to explain how temps were not rising over about a decade, yet CO2 levels rose.The science needs to get better so we can make intelligent interventions based on science and not on feelings.

These are all fair points, I think the biggest hang up between us is time. Yes, the earth has warmed and cooled before, but never (to our knowledge) at this rate. I'm not sure there is an answer to "what is the optimal CO2 level/global temperature/pH of the ocean", it's all about rate of change. These variables have changed in the past and were bound to change again even if humans didn't industrialize. But these changes are faster than evolution can account for and we are loosing species at a rate of 100-1,000x the background extinction rate.

As to whether or not climate science is good science; it's a mix between archeology and meteorology, and archeology is inherently limited. It's not going to have the number of data points that medical research or thermochemistry or cosmology have. But its not like there is no data whatsoever. We know that global temps, CO2 levels, oceanic pH, and # of species are changing as fast as any catastrophic event in earth's history. It's my belief that we should try to mitigate this change.

And we don't have to spend trillions of tax $'s to do so. Use the vehicle of capitalism to de-incentivize energy sources that produce carbon via a progressive carbon tax (the more you produce the higher percentage of profits that are taxed) and incentivize clean energy sources and batteries by making them low tax/tax free.

 

[jambro]

Only on SDN would you see medical students (who love to complain about how much debt they're gonna have) complain about their debt being forgiven. Lol

 

[Stagg737]

These are all fair points, I think the biggest hang up between us is time. Yes, the earth has warmed and cooled before, but never (to our knowledge) at this rate. I'm not sure there is an answer to "what is the optimal CO2 level/global temperature/pH of the ocean", it's all about rate of change. These variables have changed in the past and were bound to change again even if humans didn't industrialize. But these changes are faster than evolution can account for and we are loosing species at a rate of 100-1,000x the background extinction rate.

As to whether or not climate science is good science; it's a mix between archeology and meteorology, and archeology is inherently limited. It's not going to have the number of data points that medical research or thermochemistry or cosmology have. But its not like there is no data whatsoever. We know that global temps, CO2 levels, oceanic pH, and # of species are changing as fast as any catastrophic event in earth's history. It's my belief that we should try to mitigate this change.

And we don't have to spend trillions of tax $'s to do so. Use the vehicle of capitalism to de-incentivize energy sources that produce carbon via a progressive carbon tax (the more you produce the higher percentage of profits that are taxed) and incentivize clean energy sources and batteries by making them low tax/tax free.

You two are having an interesting debate, but my question is how does this relate back to federal loans as someone earlier implied? The only thing I can think of is that the $1.6 trillion spent on forgiving loans (which the gov doesn't even really have) could be used to invest in more clean energy sources or research.

There are so many better investments in the country that could be made, but the ideas of all the current nominees just sound like adults trying to convince children that they're giving out the best candy.

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

We don’t agree. There is no innate human right to goods/services being provided to us by our neighbors.

I said that there are certain things that people are untitled to under human rights ordinances, I never said that you have the right to have that paid for by your neighbor. But, for many things, if a government/nation is committing to providing this thing to you because it's a human right, it gets paid for by tax payer dollars that both you and neighbor pay if that's how the tax code and national budget is written at the time. Is your neighbor therefore helping to provide that thing to you? Yes. Is a nation collecting taxes on it's citizens to pay for various things that benefit the well being of the society as a whole (such as primary education and healthcare) different than you demanding your neighbor pay 200K for your undergraduate degree? Obviously.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

I said that there are certain things that people are untitled to under human rights ordinances, I never said that you have the right to have that paid for by your neighbor. But, for many things, if a government/nation is committing to providing this thing to you because it's a human right, it gets paid for by tax payer dollars that both you and neighbor pay if that's how the tax code and national budget is written at the time. Is your neighbor therefore helping to provide that thing to you? Yes. Is a nation collecting taxes on it's citizens to pay for various things that benefit the well being of the society as a whole (such as primary education and healthcare) different than you demanding your neighbor pay 200K for your undergraduate degree? Obviously.

Most things tax dollars are used for benefit everyone. National security, police services, roads, etc. Paying off a highly educated and paid person's student loans doesn't.

 

[321931]

I said that there are certain things that people are untitled to under human rights ordinances, I never said that you have the right to have that paid for by your neighbor. But, for many things, if a government/nation is committing to providing this thing to you because it's a human right, it gets paid for by tax payer dollars that both you and neighbor pay if that's how the tax code and national budget is written at the time. Is your neighbor therefore helping to provide that thing to you? Yes. Is a nation collecting taxes on it's citizens to pay for various things that benefit the well being of the society as a whole (such as primary education and healthcare) different than you demanding your neighbor pay 200K for your undergraduate degree? Obviously.

Dr. I have a question. Considering some presidential candidates are running on the platform of student loan forgiveness- what is your take on universal healthcare and the possibility that your physician salary would become similar to european standards (60-80k) Germany for example.

Would you still be for it...because it betters society at the expense of your paycut? It gives everyone a human right to healthcare? 10 years of your life in school for a paycut from 200-500k to 60-80k.

I'm sorta curious- would you still be for it? Because you speak in ways that "if its better for society than for an individual" then it should be done. Universal healthcare has a higher chance of passing over student loan forgiveness.

 

[jambro]

@procrastitator this plan pays off ALL student loans, not just the highly educated/paid. Would you like it better if it explicitly excluded physicians and/or others with high salaries?

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

@procrastitator this plan pays off ALL student loans, not just the highly educated/paid. Would you like it better if it explicitly excluded physicians and/or others with high salaries?

Most people who graduate from college attain relatively high paying jobs. The median income for college graduates is roughly twice as high as those with just a high school diploma. Those with graduate degrees make even more.

Attending college is an time and monetary invest in one's self.

Measuring the value of education : Career Outlook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Is school worth the work? Find out what the data say.

www.bls.gov

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

Dr. I have a question. Considering some presidential candidates are running on the platform of student loan forgiveness- what is your take on universal healthcare and the possibility that your physician salary would become similar to european standards (60-80k) Germany for example.

Would you still be for it...because it betters society at the expense of your paycut? It gives everyone a human right to healthcare? 10 years of your life in school for a paycut from 200-500k to 60-80k.

I'm sorta curious- would you still be for it? Because you speak in ways that "if its better for society than for an individual" then it should be done. Universal healthcare has a higher chance of passing over student loan forgiveness.

Yes I am very pro universal healthcare. In a country where things like healthcare, public higher education, paid family leave, etc. is provided universally to all it's citizens and these things don't come directly out of pocket every time you need them, the cost of living is substantially lower. 60-80k is a MUCH more livable salary when you're not paying thousands and thousands a year for these things, and yes I would be willing to take whatever adjusted pay cut passing universal healthcare in this country would entail. I have coworkers who primarily practice medicine in Germany. They live very comfortable lives, they don't have a dime of student debt, and if they fall and break their leg they don't pay 2k for an damn ambulance.

 

[jambro]

Most people who graduate from college attain relatively high paying jobs. The median income for college graduates is roughly twice as high as those with just a high school diploma. Those with graduate degrees make even more.

Attending college is an time and monetary invest in one's self.

Measuring the value of education : Career Outlook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Is school worth the work? Find out what the data say.

www.bls.gov

I'm not sure if MOST college graduates get high paying jobs, tbh. And I'm not doubting that having a college degree is better than not having one, but it seems to me that many jobs essentially require a college degree even if its not related, and that college is soon becoming the new high school. Seems like a problem that a virtual-necessity in the modern economy necessitates tens to hundreds of thousands in debt. Again, not sure you would prefer a cutoff like those making >100k get no relief?

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

Most things tax dollars are used for benefit everyone. National security, police services, roads, etc. Paying off a highly educated and paid person's student loans doesn't.

There are PLENTY of things your tax dollars pay for that you don't personally benefit from at any given time. If you send your kids to private school, you'll never personally benefit from free public school education. Your tax dollars provide funding for public transportation even if you own your own car and never take the bus. I said "benefits society as a whole", not "benefits each individual citizen equally". Those are two different things. It benefits society as a whole to provide everyone access to higher education. It's beneficial to society to pay for it with tax payer dollars even if you personally never go to college.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

I'm not sure if MOST college graduates get high paying jobs, tbh. And I'm not doubting that having a college degree is better than not having one, but it seems to me that many jobs essentially require a college degree even if its not related, and that college is soon becoming the new high school. Seems like a problem that a virtual-necessity in the modern economy necessitates tens to hundreds of thousands in debt. Again, not sure you would prefer a cutoff like those making >100k get no relief?

The link I included lists the median income for each level of education. You can extrapolate the data from that. A college degree doesn't require hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Unless you HAVE to attend an expensive private school(no one does). The respected state school I attended costs about $12,000 per year, and scholarships, stipends, Pell Grant, state education lottery, loans, work study, part-time jobs, etc exist. If that costs too much, spend your first two years at a community college. There a so many options for getting a high quality education at a reasonable price, I laugh when I read stories about people complaining about how they HAD to get into six figures of debt to get an education or theatre degree. Loans aren't a bad idea if you're significantly improving your earning potential, as higher education general does.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

These are all fair points, I think the biggest hang up between us is time. Yes, the earth has warmed and cooled before, but never (to our knowledge) at this rate. I'm not sure there is an answer to "what is the optimal CO2 level/global temperature/pH of the ocean", it's all about rate of change. These variables have changed in the past and were bound to change again even if humans didn't industrialize. But these changes are faster than evolution can account for and we are loosing species at a rate of 100-1,000x the background extinction rate.

As to whether or not climate science is good science; it's a mix between archeology and meteorology, and archeology is inherently limited. It's not going to have the number of data points that medical research or thermochemistry or cosmology have. But its not like there is no data whatsoever. We know that global temps, CO2 levels, oceanic pH, and # of species are changing as fast as any catastrophic event in earth's history. It's my belief that we should try to mitigate this change.

And we don't have to spend trillions of tax $'s to do so. Use the vehicle of capitalism to de-incentivize energy sources that produce carbon via a progressive carbon tax (the more you produce the higher percentage of profits that are taxed) and incentivize clean energy sources and batteries by making them low tax/tax free.

Very nice discussion. Thanks !

 

[brownsfan999]

You two are having an interesting debate, but my question is how does this relate back to federal loans as someone earlier implied? The only thing I can think of is that the $1.6 trillion spent on forgiving loans (which the gov doesn't even really have) could be used to invest in more clean energy sources or research.

There are so many better investments in the country that could be made, but the ideas of all the current nominees just sound like adults trying to convince children that they're giving out the best candy.

It doesn’t, going on a tangent. Sorry

 

[deleted731525]

Only on SDN would you see medical students (who love to complain about how much debt they're gonna have) complain about their debt being forgiven. Lol

And it somehow devolve into a climate change debate lol

 

[deleted407021]

And it somehow devolve into a climate change debate lol

Is that what’s happening now? lol

Took boards today so Idgaf anymore

 

[Stagg737]

Those are two different things. It benefits society as a whole to provide everyone access to higher education. It's beneficial to society to pay for it with tax payer dollars even if you personally never go to college.

Describe to me exactly how everyone getting a higher education (aka college), paid for with taxpayer dollars, will benefit society as a whole.

 

[321931]

Yes I am very pro universal healthcare. In a country where things like healthcare, public higher education, paid family leave, etc. is provided universally to all it's citizens and these things don't come directly out of pocket every time you need them, the cost of living is substantially lower. 60-80k is a MUCH more livable salary when you're not paying thousands and thousands a year for these things, and yes I would be willing to take whatever adjusted pay cut passing universal healthcare in this country would entail. I have coworkers who primarily practice medicine in Germany. They live very comfortable lives, they don't have a dime of student debt, and if they fall and break their leg they don't pay 2k for an damn ambulance.

It's good to know there are people out there that will sacrifice 4 years undergrad, 4 years graduate, 4 years residency and 2 years fellowship for universal healthcare salary of 60-80k.

Anyways, thanks for answering the question, I respect your thoughts, and it does make sense.

 

[7331poas]

No one has any right to anything they haven’t earned or had gifted to them voluntarily

meh, depends on your ethics. A baby, simply by virtue of being born in the US, is entitled to Medicaid. That child certainly didn't earn it. maybe the parents did., but the infant certainly isn't deserving.

If we extrapolate further, most people who are paying off their loans didn't "earn" a stable household in their youth. But that certainly helped them in paying off their loans.

There is a lot more than goes into this

 

[deleted480308]

meh, depends on your ethics. A baby, simply by virtue of being born in the US, is entitled to Medicaid. That child certainly didn't earn it. maybe the parents did., but the infant certainly isn't deserving.

If we extrapolate further, most people who are paying off their loans didn't "earn" a stable household in their youth. But that certainly helped them in paying off their loans.

There is a lot more than goes into this

You are correct, there is no natural right to medicaid

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

It's good to know there are people out there that will sacrifice 4 years undergrad, 4 years graduate, 4 years residency and 2 years fellowship for universal healthcare salary of 60-80k.

Anyways, thanks for answering the question, I respect your thoughts, and it does make sense.

I don't personally view the entire journey of becoming a doctor as a "sacrifice". Do you have to sacrifice some things along the way? Of course. Time you could have spent with friends, family, etc. But for the most part, I didn't give anything up or sacrifice any major part of my life to pursue this path, this is just the life I've chosen for myself.

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

Describe to me exactly how everyone getting a higher education (aka college), paid for with taxpayer dollars, will benefit society as a whole.

I did not say it's beneficial for everyone to get a college degree, I said it's beneficial for everyone to have access to one, should they decide to get one. Obviously there are hundreds of career pathways that don't involve getting a college degree that are very important to the function of society. HERE is a lovely infographic that summarizes some info on how college graduates benefit society at large. Some key points from this particular infographic, college graduates:

- are ~%25 more likely to be employed than a non college graduate, which lower national unemployment rates overall
- are 2x as likely to volunteer
- donate 3.5x more money to charity
- vote at a much higher rate - political involvement and engagement is always good
- are less reliant on government services such as housing subsidies, nutrition assistance, unemployment benefits, etc.
- earn an estimated 1 million more in their lifetime, thus governments disproportionately rely on our income tax revenue - we contribute more money, and utilize less government services.

This list is obviously by no means exhaustive or even necessarily the most important benefits that college education provides society. There were dozens of articles and publications on this topic that I could have pasted in here.

 

[deleted480308]

I did not say it's beneficial for everyone to get a college degree, I said it's beneficial for everyone to have access to one, should they decide to get one. Obviously there are hundreds of career pathways that don't involve getting a college degree that are very important to the function of society. HERE is a lovely infographic that summarizes some info on how college graduates benefit society at large. Some key points from this particular infographic, college graduates:

- are ~%25 more likely to be employed than a non college graduate, which lower national unemployment rates overall
- are 2x as likely to volunteer
- donate 3.5x more money to charity
- vote at a much higher rate - political involvement and engagement is always good
- are less reliant on government services such as housing subsidies, nutrition assistance, unemployment benefits, etc.
- earn an estimated 1 million more in their lifetime, thus governments disproportionately rely on our income tax revenue - we contribute more money, and utilize less government services.

This list is obviously by no means exhaustive or even necessarily the most important benefits that college education provides society. There were dozens of articles and publications on this topic that I could have pasted in here.

I’m going to disagree that more voting is always good.

 

[Stagg737]

I did not say it's beneficial for everyone to get a college degree, I said it's beneficial for everyone to have access to one, should they decide to get one. Obviously there are hundreds of career pathways that don't involve getting a college degree that are very important to the function of society. HERE is a lovely infographic that summarizes some info on how college graduates benefit society at large. Some key points from this particular infographic, college graduates:

- are ~%25 more likely to be employed than a non college graduate, which lower national unemployment rates overall
- are 2x as likely to volunteer
- donate 3.5x more money to charity
- vote at a much higher rate - political involvement and engagement is always good
- are less reliant on government services such as housing subsidies, nutrition assistance, unemployment benefits, etc.
- earn an estimated 1 million more in their lifetime, thus governments disproportionately rely on our income tax revenue - we contribute more money, and utilize less government services.

This list is obviously by no means exhaustive or even necessarily the most important benefits that college education provides society. There were dozens of articles and publications on this topic that I could have pasted in here.

So for the bolded points, do you think those are true because they got a college degree or that they got a college degree because they have other positive traits which also lead the bolded points to be true? Correlation =/= causation and correlation is meaningless to this argument. Also, I agree with the above that voting at a higher rate and political involvement is only good is someone is capable of considering each candidates points critically and arriving at their own conclusions instead of simply following what they are taught without question. Unfortunately, the latter thought process is too prevalent among college grads of all political affiliations today.

So again, I'll ask you to describe for me specifically how obtaining a college degree (for many, not everyone) through higher education will benefit society as a whole. If your answer is simply that everyone should have that opportunity, I'd argue we already do a fair job of that and that free tuition or forgiving all loans is a poor way of attempting to accomplish this.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Lets have the debate about whether you think higher education is a human right

100% not.

Only on SDN would you see medical students (who love to complain about how much debt they're gonna have) complain about their debt being forgiven. Lol

The only reason my debt is so high is because the government will give any amount in loans. If they stopped then schools would be forced to lower tuition and cost.

but it seems to me that many jobs essentially require a college degree even if its not related, and that college is soon becoming the new high school.

This right here is a direct result of the line of thinking in the comment below.

It benefits society as a whole to provide everyone access to higher education. It's beneficial to society to pay for it with tax payer dollars even if you personally never go to college.

When the government will pay any amount for anyone to get college degrees, regardless of how little the return on it will be, then everyone pretty much has one. If most everyone has one then most jobs will start requiring it and college becomes the new high school. This also is driving a lot of companies to force employees to go back to school and get a graduate degree even when it will have zero impact on that person's job.

 

[7331poas]

The only reason my debt is so high is because the government will give any amount in loans. If they stopped then schools would be forced to lower tuition and cost.

No they don't lol. Medical schools could easily replace you with 5 other eager applicants who would happily accept the current tuition rates.

 

[jambro]

Yeah, considering that there are plenty of schools with >7000 applicants for 100 spots, you really dont think they could find SOMEONE who either had rich parents or was willing to go to private loans? At 8, 9, 10%? After all, what are they gonna do, NOT be a doc?

 

[deleted585480]

Only on SDN would you see medical students (who love to complain about how much debt they're gonna have) complain about their debt being forgiven. Lol

Mommy and daddy paying for their tuition.

 

[radsisrad]

but the ideas of all the current nominees just sound like adults trying to convince children that they're giving out the best candy.

Someone might have already quipped about the bolded, but - in case nobody has - I beg to differ.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No they don't lol. Medical schools could easily replace you with 5 other eager applicants who would happily accept the current tuition rates.

That's not really the argument. The reason medical school can charge so much, and increase it the way they do on a yearly basis, is because the government will give them loans to cover it no matter what. If the government stopped doing this schools would be forced to stop the price gouging they inflict on students.

 

[jambro]

You're arguing that student's access to money to pay the ridiculous prices are why they charge so much. If they got rid of public loans, why wouldn't private loans just replace public ones? Or maybe more wealthy students would simply have their parents pay? Considering how extremely competitive applications are you really think each school couldn't find ~100 people to pay them 60k with the guarantee they will be a doc?

 

[7331poas]

That's not really the argument. The reason medical school can charge so much, and increase it the way they do on a yearly basis, is because the government will give them loans to cover it no matter what. If the government stopped doing this schools would be forced to stop the price gouging they inflict on students.

But thats not true, private lenders would just offer to cover the cost of tuition, at a premium interest rate of course.

 

[radsisrad]

You're arguing that student's access to money to pay the ridiculous prices are why they charge so much. If they got rid of public loans, why wouldn't private loans not just replace public ones? Or maybe more wealthy students would simply have their parents pay? Considering how extremely competitive applications are you really think each school couldn't find ~100 people to pay them 60k with the guarantee they will be a doc?

My conjecture: a number of schools would not fill if they'd jumped abruptly from what tuition was 15-20 years ago to what it is now. It's a classic case of the frog boiling slowly in the heating water... we've been inured to ever-increasing societal debt and easy loans. And what, exactly, have we gained? By plenty of accounts, medical students 20 years ago left medical school with better technical and diagnostic skills.

But, hey, the interest groups get free*** pizza and snacks.



***That $ didn't grow on a tree.

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

So for the bolded points, do you think those are true because they got a college degree, or that they got a college degree because they have other positive traits which also lead the bolded points to be true?

People who obtain college degrees on average earn more money in their lifetime, and I do think that's a causal relationship. It's not a perfect 1:1 relationship, there are of course people who get college degrees and then have jobs that don't pay particularly well. But the average lifetime earning potential of someone with a college degree is higher than someone without a college degree because their college degree is causing them to obtain, on average, higher paying jobs. I do think most of the bolded points (contributing more via taxes, donate more to charity, less reliant on government subsidies) are a direct consequence of their higher paying job and higher earning potential, thanks to their degree. The bulleted points I listed are all beneficial to society as a whole.

 

[DrDrgimmethenews]

When the government will pay any amount for anyone to get college degrees, regardless of how little the return on it will be, then everyone pretty much has one. If most everyone has one then most jobs will start requiring it and college becomes the new high school. This also is driving a lot of companies to force employees to go back to school and get a graduate degree even when it will have zero impact on that person's job.

I disagree that everyone would put in the time and effort to get a college degree just because it was offered to them at very little/no cost. As everyone here has been pointing out, there are plenty of career options that don't require getting a 4 year college degree. Why would someone who knows they want to be a full time professional firefighter, electrician, mechanic, or hair stylist go to a 4 year college and get a bachelor's degree in a completely unrelated major to these skills/trades/services knowing that that degree was not required to get the job they want? That would be ridiculous. As long as there are people who want to pursue career paths that don't require degrees NOT just because they can't afford a degree, than there will be a significant proportion of the population that doesn't go get that affordable/free degree they're being offered.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It's about equal opportunity. No one guarantees equal outcome. Many people dont want to be millionaires or pay the price to be one. They just want to go to work and take.care of.their family. I have 2 sons
One went to an elite private school and was an elite swimmer. Has a degree in Law Enforcement from a private college. Drives a truck because he has 2 children and can triple his income as opposed to being a policeman. He will make 6 figures this year and loves his job. Other son went to public highschool, private college and.just finished PGY1 as a FM resident. Equal opportunity, different outcomes. College is not a requirement to make a good living.

 

[Stagg737]

People who obtain college degrees on average earn more money in their lifetime, and I do think that's a causal relationship. It's not a perfect 1:1 relationship, there are of course people who get college degrees and then have jobs that don't pay particularly well. But the average lifetime earning potential of someone with a college degree is higher than someone without a college degree because their college degree is causing them to obtain, on average, higher paying jobs. I do think most of the bolded points (contributing more via taxes, donate more to charity, less reliant on government subsidies) are a direct consequence of their higher paying job and higher earning potential, thanks to their degree. The bulleted points I listed are all beneficial to society as a whole.

You side-stepped the question unless you're saying that the college degree itself and NOT those traits which allowed the individual to obtain that degree is what led to the higher income. In which case I strongly disagree.

For shiggles let's say you're right that it's the degree itself though, for many of those jobs a college degree is completely unnecessary and is "required" because college education has become so watered down and common that jobs can demand a person have a college degree to do something anyone with a high school degree or even less could do (see my previous post about being asked if I had a college degree when I applied to be a delivery driver). Providing free education to all and doing away with debt only serves to further water down that education and inflate the requirements for entry level jobs. Explain how that helps the US as a whole when it only delays the amount of time until someone begins working (thus decreasing total working years) while forcing those who are earning money to pay for their education through higher taxes.

Let's take another scenario and say that the other bullet points are true because of that last point that those with college degrees earn more overall. So assuming the argument is that those with college degrees earn more and thus contribute more to society, do you think that if one did not need a college degree to make the same amount of money (like if they entered one of the many high-paying trade fields) that they would still volunteer more, donate more, and be less reliant on government programs? If yes, then why is pushing more people into college instead of these professions so important? If no, then why are people who are making as much as college graduates not benefiting society more when your argument is college grads do so because they're more financially well-off.

 

[Lawpy]

I haven't followed this thread closely but i think we're speculating on various hypothetical scenarios. We don't know if Sanders is going to win the Democratic nomination, and if he does, we don't know if he's going to win the election. Suppose if he does win the presidency, there will likely be a lot of roadblocks for his proposals to take place and even then i'm not sure if he'll be successful in delivering these promises.

So it feels like we're discussing and debating something that we don't know if it'll even happen in the first place. And given the constraints and the current situation, I'd say the scenario outlined is highly unlikely. Just consider for a moment the roadblocks and constraints imposed by Congress, courts, states etc. as well as from private sector and lobbying groups. We need to be realistic here

 

[Cheeni17]

If he wins I’m totally gonna get a degree in lesbian dance theory at the most expensive school possible

 

[GoSpursGo]

This thread started off as a reasonable topic for allo, but has quickly veered firmly into politics. Thus it's being closed.