SaltyDog

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From personal experience, holding your breath while at maximum breath is harder and hurts, I think it has to do something with chest wall stretch receptors.

To an extent that’s true. Competitive free divers actively train and stretch their lungs/chest walls to accept higher volumes. They use their oropharyngeal muscles to “pack” extra air into their lungs over and above what they can inhale before long dives.
 
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BloodySurgeon

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Anyone ever compare saturations? Why are all the other 35 year olds at work 99 or 100% and my saturation is only 97-98%, never 100%? It does go up to 100% with oxygen though. Early predictor of lung disease? Is my Hgb messed up?!?!

Use an incentive spirometer at home and call it a day. Out of curiosity do you wear an N95 all day or less active since covid?
 

sidefx

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I've never done dynamic. I've hit 3 minutes a few times. Never felt wise to push mush beyond that as the world is usually getting a little cloudy at that point. I'm intrigued though about this dynamic breath hold training.

I'm also curious now about doing this with a pulse-ox to see where I land.

I actually did this in the OR while bored at work the other day just out of curiosity. Hooked up the pulse ox, baseline sat on room air was 97-98%. Held a vital capacity breath as long as I could... could not physically hold it any longer and sat never dropped below 95%. It was my understanding the irresistible urge to breathe is driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia during breath hold (at least for a healthy person with standard physiology), so this seems to make sense.
 
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anbuitachi

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I actually did this in the OR while bored at work the other day just out of curiosity. Hooked up the pulse ox, baseline sat on room air was 97-98%. Held a vital capacity breath as long as I could... could not physically hold it any longer and sat never dropped below 95%. It was my understanding the irresistible urge to breathe is driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia during breath hold (at least for a healthy person with standard physiology), so this seems to make sense.

are you middle age too
 

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I actually did this in the OR while bored at work the other day just out of curiosity. Hooked up the pulse ox, baseline sat on room air was 97-98%. Held a vital capacity breath as long as I could... could not physically hold it any longer and sat never dropped below 95%. It was my understanding the irresistible urge to breathe is driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia during breath hold (at least for a healthy person with standard physiology), so this seems to make sense.

Hyperventilate first and you can definitely get yourself to desat
 
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pjl

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A full tidal exhale expedites the process too.
Or you can just hook up to the circuit and let the CO2 absorb. You start feeling the panic with a very low sat. My mind starts to think it is a bad idea to do this far before my body starts freaking out.

Med students get to do this on rotation.
 

SaltyDog

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Or you can just hook up to the circuit and let the CO2 absorb. You start feeling the panic with a very low sat. My mind starts to think it is a bad idea to do this far before my body starts freaking out.

Med students get to do this on rotation.

I’m not following you here. What exactly are you having them do?
 

SaltyDog

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I actually did this in the OR while bored at work the other day just out of curiosity. Hooked up the pulse ox, baseline sat on room air was 97-98%. Held a vital capacity breath as long as I could... could not physically hold it any longer and sat never dropped below 95%. It was my understanding the irresistible urge to breathe is driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia during breath hold (at least for a healthy person with standard physiology), so this seems to make sense.

Holding my breath on the pulse ox has really taught me 3 things:

1) I have a sh**ty breath hold

2) Just how much hypoventilation has occurred by the time we see patients start to desat. This is even more striking considering we have patients on supplemental O2.

3) The incredible amount of lag on the pulse ox. Often times it's not until you start breathing again after maxing out your breath hold that you will see much of any desat at all.
 
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woopedazz

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I actually did this in the OR while bored at work the other day just out of curiosity. Hooked up the pulse ox, baseline sat on room air was 97-98%. Held a vital capacity breath as long as I could... could not physically hold it any longer and sat never dropped below 95%. It was my understanding the irresistible urge to breathe is driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia during breath hold (at least for a healthy person with standard physiology), so this seems to make sense.
Can't remember the exact anatomy/physiology, but there's some sort of wind-up/positive feedback loop that promotes the irresistable urge to breath once CO2 is above a certain level. It has a negative-feedback loop with stretch receptors in the lungs. So the mere act of inhalation actually relieves the urge to breath very quickly. Even if you're in a 100% CO2 atmosphere, the irresistable urge to breath is attenuated. Helps explain the different experience suffered by near-drowning victims vs plastic bag over the head.
 
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abolt18

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Holding my breath on the pulse ox has really taught me 3 things:

1) I have a sh**ty breath hold

2) Just how much hypoventilation has occurred by the time we see patients start to desat. This is even more striking considering we have patients on supplemental O2.

3) The incredible amount of lag on the pulse ox. Often times it's not until you start breathing again after maxing out your breath hold that you will see much of any desat at all.
Finally did some breath holding while walking around (not fast, not slow) and it was miserably short, barely breaking 30 seconds each time. Going to try to do some of these ladders while walking around.
 

SaltyDog

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Finally did some breath holding while walking around (not fast, not slow) and it was miserably short, barely breaking 30 seconds each time. Going to try to do some of these ladders while walking around.

The tables are typically done static. Start with CO2. O2 tables are more for the advanced guys that can power through the diaphragm contractions.
 

abolt18

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The tables are typically done static. Start with CO2. O2 tables are more for the advanced guys that can power through the diaphragm contractions.
Where do you learn these things? I just always liked the challenge of holding my breath longer and longer. Had no idea that you should start with CO2 tables. Also have no idea how to reasonably adapt those tables to make them more challenging (i.e. make the breath hold longer vs the breathing time shorter).
 

anbuitachi

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Why aren’t you active? Just curious. Are you one of those naturally skinny people?
too tired to be active. climbing stairs tires me out. running a block and i get chest pains. but yea im not fat. my body probably burns thousands of calories just to stay alive. not efficient at all
 

chocomorsel

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too tired to be active. climbing stairs tires me out. running a block and i get chest pains. but yea im not fat. my body probably burns thousands of calories just to stay alive. not efficient at all
Checked your thyroid?
Also, maybe you are tired because you don’t have the conditioning.
But if you are still in residency you may be exhausted because you work all the time.
 
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MirrorTodd

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Where do you learn these things? I just always liked the challenge of holding my breath longer and longer. Had no idea that you should start with CO2 tables. Also have no idea how to reasonably adapt those tables to make them more challenging (i.e. make the breath hold longer vs the breathing time shorter).
If you do really want to learn here are some books that I've read that are pretty good. Caveat is that they aren't written by physicians so not all of the information about physiology is 100% correct.
Freediving: the essentials for reaching 65 feet in just two days -Oskar Varg (He has a simpler book too: How to hold your breath for over five minutes with only two days practice)
Manual of Freediving -Umberto Pelizzari
The books are fairly good instruction manuals and coaching tools to help you in breath control and knowing what to expect your body to do while holding your breath.

DANGER: I've got to put a disclaimer that while the chance of dying while holding your breath on land is very small, it isn't nonzero. I would recommend having a practice partner with you or someone nearby who can check on you if they hear a thump, at the very least tell the surgeon to look over the drapes if they don't see you standing there anymore.
Furthermore, your chances of dying go up dramatically if attempting to do breath holds in water...especially by yourself. Shallow water blackout can happen in any depth of water really, so don't practice alone. I've read alot of stories over the years of divers who have gone missing or friends who saw their buddy surface and then watched them slip back under.
 
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teacher2md

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too tired to be active. climbing stairs tires me out. running a block and i get chest pains.

I think your intolerance to any amount of exertion is way more concerning than resting sp02 of 97%...
 
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IMGASMD

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If you do really want to learn here are some books that I've read that are pretty good. Caveat is that they aren't written by physicians so not all of the information about physiology is 100% correct.
Freediving: the essentials for reaching 65 feet in just two days -Oskar Varg (He has a simpler book too: How to hold your breath for over five minutes with only two days practice)
Manual of Freediving -Umberto Pelizzari
The books are fairly good instruction manuals and coaching tools to help you in breath control and knowing what to expect your body to do while holding your breath.

DANGER: I've got to put a disclaimer that while the chance of dying while holding your breath on land is very small, it isn't nonzero. I would recommend having a practice partner with you or someone nearby who can check on you if they hear a thump, at the very least tell the surgeon to look over the drapes if they don't see you standing there anymore.
Furthermore, your chances of dying go up dramatically if attempting to do breath holds in water...especially by yourself. Shallow water blackout can happen in any depth of water really, so don't practice alone. I've read alot of stories over the years of divers who have gone missing or friends who saw their buddy surface and then watched them slip back under.

I can learn black magic in 2 days?!
What do I need to do to gain that power....?

Buy the book, I suppose.
 
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MirrorTodd

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I can learn black magic in 2 days?!
What do I need to do to gain that power....?

Buy the book, I suppose.
I'm sure you can find the information for free with a little Google research. The gist is find a nice quiet dark spot. Lay down and relax your body. Slow breathing for a couple minutes. Take a deep inhale with your diaphragm and hold it. Then ignore the pain of the diaphragm attempting to contract until five minutes are up.
 

ZzzPlz

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I’m getting some really kinky vibes from this thread and I don’t hate it
 
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abolt18

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As long as you’re doing statics on dry land, feel free to push as hard as you want. Worst case scenario you pass out on the couch and wake a few mins later. Any apnea training in water needs to be with a buddy that KNOWS how to save you if things go awry.

You can start with CO2 tables then move to O2 tables. A million ways to do dynamics from just walking while breath holding to doing interval breath holds on an exercise bike.

Go over to spearboard and search for posts by growingupninja. I’m pretty sure that dude has gills. Or better yet, sign up for an FII freediving course.

And for some entertainment, check out YouTube vids by Guillame Nery.
Nothing to do on this overnight shift. Finally decided to hook up to a pulse-ox while I held my breath. Did 2min, 45sec. (Sitting upright isn't as easy as lying down). SpO2 dropped to 87%. It was 90% when I started breathing again but with the delay... 87 nadir. I am pretty surprised by that!

Also, 100% on room air (since that was the original topic of this thread).
 
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anbuitachi

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Nothing to do on this overnight shift. Finally decided to hook up to a pulse-ox while I held my breath. Did 2min, 45sec. (Sitting upright isn't as easy as lying down). SpO2 dropped to 87%. It was 90% when I started breathing again but with the delay... 87 nadir. I am pretty surprised by that!

Also, 100% on room air (since that was the original topic of this thread).

thats very impressive.. 2 min 45 seconds. that sounds wayyyy above average for someone who doesnt practice breath holding
 

abolt18

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thats very impressive.. 2 min 45 seconds. that sounds wayyyy above average for someone who doesnt practice breath holding
I wouldn't say I don't practice, but definitely not regimented. Always just enjoyed seeing how long I could hold my breath. I've always been able to hold my breath longer than the average person though.
 

sidefx

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Nothing to do on this overnight shift. Finally decided to hook up to a pulse-ox while I held my breath. Did 2min, 45sec. (Sitting upright isn't as easy as lying down). SpO2 dropped to 87%. It was 90% when I started breathing again but with the delay... 87 nadir. I am pretty surprised by that!

Also, 100% on room air (since that was the original topic of this thread).

Interesting. I wonder if the fact you "practice" breath holding has increased your tolerance for hypercarbia? My SpO2 never dipped below 95% before I was forced to start breathing again, which seems much more likely to be a stimulus driven by hypercarbia rather than hypoxia. Yours dropping to 87% looks more in line with being hypoxia-driven, given that carotid body signalling increases dramatically below a PaO2 of 60 which is approximately equal to a saturation of 88-90%, consistent with right around where you were at on SpO2 reading.
 
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