School Cost Choice

Started by CD1989
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CD1989

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How big of a difference maker would it be if one school was about 17k more than another (about 80k total over the 4 years), but it was a school you would choose 9/10 times? People are always advocating taking the cheaper option, but at what point is the debt reasonable to take on? Also, these are 2 mid-lower tier schools so prestige isn't a factor.
 
I think your happiness is the most important consideration. Money might get stressful at times, but ultimately will work out.

Just to help you make an more informed decision, that additional $80K will be likely to double in interest by the time you pay everything off, but that's in the course of many, many years.
 
red doctober said:
I think your happiness is the most important consideration. Money might get stressful at times, but ultimately will work out.

Just to help you make an more informed decision, that additional $80K will be likely to double in interest by the time you pay everything off, but that's in the course of many, many years.
Click to expand...

Happiness should be the determining factor in THE LONG RUN. Do you really want to pay $1000 a month, every month, for ten years, starting in residency, or 12-1500 a month every month for ten years starting as an attending on top of what you will already owe?

No. Suck it up. Go to the cheaper school. It means a better retirement, nice house, more money to donate to charity, more/better vacations. Seriously, think about what you could an with $1,500 extra a month EVERY MONTH for an ENTIRE DECADE. That's half of your mortgage. That's a trip to Europe several times a year. That's a life changing donation to charity. That's somewhere on the order of 1-2 million in retirement savings after compounding interest.

It's easy to get lulled into complacency in our society, but debt is a huge deal.

Do what you want. But don't take advice from people who's insight into debt is "you should be happy." If short term happiness was the main determinant in my expenditures, I wouldn't have money in savings, I wouldn't have kept my student loans low, I would be driving a new car. But I'm not. I've been fiscally responsible while many of my classmates have not. They may think I lived in a crap-hole during med school (which I did), but jokes on them, I'll probably have my student loans paid off before I graduate fellowship (worst case scenario, 1 year into being an attending).

Make the smart choice.
 
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Every $10,000 worth of debt at 7% interest repaid over 10 years will cost you about $116 per month.

If you're earning about $200K per year pre-tax, one or two of these $10K increments won't have much impact on your lifestyle (cable bill), but four or five will be noticed (think driving a junker vs. a great new car); 10 or 20 will be a total lifestyle changer (apartment vs. nice house).

Don't go somewhere that will make you miserable. But weight the difference between 'good enough' and 'like better' pretty carefully. You will be paying for it...
 
FSU2013 said:
Happiness should be the determining factor in THE LONG RUN. Do you really want to pay $1000 a month, every month, for ten years, starting in residency, or 12-1500 a month every month for ten years starting as an attending on top of what you will already owe?

No. Suck it up. Go to the cheaper school. It means a better retirement, nice house, more money to donate to charity, more/better vacations. Seriously, think about what you could an with $1,500 extra a month EVERY MONTH for an ENTIRE DECADE. That's half of your mortgage. That's a trip to Europe several times a year. That's a life changing donation to charity. That's somewhere on the order of 1-2 million in retirement savings after compounding interest.

It's easy to get lulled into complacency in our society, but debt is a huge deal.

Do what you want. But don't take advice from people who's insight into debt is "you should be happy." If short term happiness was the main determinant in my expenditures, I wouldn't have money in savings, I wouldn't have kept my student loans low, I would be driving a new car. But I'm not. I've been fiscally responsible while many of my classmates have not. They may think I lived in a crap-hole during med school (which I did), but jokes on them, I'll probably have my student loans paid off before I graduate fellowship (worst case scenario, 1 year into being an attending).

Make the smart choice.
Click to expand...

Obviously our priorities are quite different, no need to be so militant about it.
 
FSU2013 said:
Happiness should be the determining factor in THE LONG RUN. Do you really want to pay $1000 a month, every month, for ten years, starting in residency, or 12-1500 a month every month for ten years starting as an attending on top of what you will already owe?

No. Suck it up. Go to the cheaper school. It means a better retirement, nice house, more money to donate to charity, more/better vacations. Seriously, think about what you could an with $1,500 extra a month EVERY MONTH for an ENTIRE DECADE. That's half of your mortgage. That's a trip to Europe several times a year. That's a life changing donation to charity. That's somewhere on the order of 1-2 million in retirement savings after compounding interest.

It's easy to get lulled into complacency in our society, but debt is a huge deal.

Do what you want. But don't take advice from people who's insight into debt is "you should be happy." If short term happiness was the main determinant in my expenditures, I wouldn't have money in savings, I wouldn't have kept my student loans low, I would be driving a new car. But I'm not. I've been fiscally responsible while many of my classmates have not. They may think I lived in a crap-hole during med school (which I did), but jokes on them, I'll probably have my student loans paid off before I graduate fellowship (worst case scenario, 1 year into being an attending).

Make the smart choice.
Click to expand...

Future cheapskate husband in the making right here.

Come at him ladies. :naughty:
 
CD1989 said:
How big of a difference maker would it be if one school was about 17k more than another (about 80k total over the 4 years), but it was a school you would choose 9/10 times? People are always advocating taking the cheaper option, but at what point is the debt reasonable to take on? Also, these are 2 mid-lower tier schools so prestige isn't a factor.
Click to expand...

People yammer on about "happiness" in this process, under the assumption that you can accurately gauge future happiness at one school versus another. Guess what: you can't. There are too many variables and too many unknowns. The reason people harp on cost is because the $$$ are about the only truly concrete thing in this decision. You know with grim certainty how much more debt you will carry and what impact it will have on your career.

The good news is that nature seems to have equipped us all with little mood thermostats that adjust to circumstances. This means your happiness level will probably be about the same a year from now no matter which school you choose.

In either school you will have talented classmates, make some good friends, study hard, see amazing things, have some great times and some not-so great times. About 45 short months after you matriculate you will receive your diploma and head on to the next, more important phase in your life. If happiness is ever the byproduct of those months then good for you, but it should not be a goal unto itself.
 
red doctober said:
Obviously our priorities are quite different, no need to be so militant about it.
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Being "militant" wasn't my intent. It's just frustrating seeing 100 threads asking "Well, my state school only costs $20k a year and XYZ Private/Ivy/Out-of-state schools costs $50k a year, but I REEEEEAAALLLY like it and I don't think I would be happy at my state school. Plus, I mean, it is XYZ school and I could have better research opportunities and famous LOR writers."

People just don't get it. Sure, you may LOVE the 4 years you spend at U of Whatever COM, but then you have to move to BFE to get a salary high enough to pay off your loans, or you have to take a job as a hospitals for 3 years to pay off your loans and never end up going to fellowship because by then you have a wife and kids, or you end up being 40 still driving a busted car and being upside down in your mortgage with no savings for retirement, or you have to tell your wife you just can't afford the house she loves or the vacation she wants to go on, or you're going to have to go into private practice when you really want to go into academics because you are paying 4k a month in loans.

As a profession, we do an extremely poor job with financial education and fiscal responsibility. Plus, we see how our attendings and parents live and think we should live like that now. The more debt we, as a profession, take on, the less autonomy we have and the more we are indentured to the loan companies and subsequently the gov't. We're giving up our professional autonomy by having so many graduating doctors with 300k in debt.

Loveless said:
Future cheapskate husband in the making right here.

Come at him ladies. :naughty:
Click to expand...

Feel free to judge, but clearly you don't get it. I lived like a pauper when I was single so that I can provide well for my wife. The sooner we are out of debt, the better life we can afford. I lived at home for one year and a crappy house (where I literally paid my rent with sweat equity) for two years of med school before I was married, because it's easy to do that when you're a single male. I went to a school where my cumulative cost of tuition over 4 years was only about 80k before any scholarships exactly so that I CAN provide my wife a great lifestyle in the future. The way I see it, the more debt you take on as a single man, the more money you're taking away from your future family. It an awful idea to spend an extra 100-200k when you're in your 20's. In a few years, if my wife says "honey, I think that range rover is cute" - it's hers; if she says "Lets go back to Europe," we can go that weekend; if we decide we want to send our kids to an expensive private school, we won't have to think twice about it. Thats something you just can't do when you're paying off 300k in debt.

In the words of Clark Howard, "Live like no one else now so you can live like no one else later."
 
Gut Shot said:
People yammer on about "happiness" in this process, under the assumption that you can accurately gauge future happiness at one school versus another. Guess what: you can't. There are too many variables and too many unknowns. The reason people harp on cost is because the $$$ are about the only truly concrete thing in this decision. You know with grim certainty how much more debt you will carry and what impact it will have on your career.

The good news is that nature seems to have equipped us all with little mood thermostats that adjust to circumstances. This means your happiness level will probably be about the same a year from now no matter which school you choose.

In either school you will have talented classmates, make some good friends, study hard, see amazing things, have some great times and some not-so great times. About 45 short months after you matriculate you will receive your diploma and head on to the next, more important phase in your life. If happiness is ever the byproduct of those months then good for you, but it should not be a goal unto itself.
Click to expand...
This really resonated with me. Good advice, thank you!
 
My main concern would be limiting your residency options. There are some really cool dual residency programs out there. And any residency 5+ years may be out of reach for you if you have an extra 100+K in debt after interest.

Can your parents pay any of the extra 17K? A few extra thousand a year could make a significant difference.

Why is the location of the other school so desirable to you?
 
red doctober said:
Obviously our priorities are quite different, no need to be so militant about it.
Click to expand...

Everyone has their own priorities, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but it is insanely difficult to judge "happiness" when choosing a school, which is what FSU and Gut are getting at. How on earth do you know that you're going to be "happy" at a school after spending at most 72 hours total on or near the campus? Most of the interactions you have with the school are either artificial to some degree (interview day and second look) and/or are with people whom you won't even spend that much time with (admissions officers, people in other classes). That's why it's incredibly naive to think that you'll be happier as a student at one place over another. Those guesses are based on things that are mostly meaningless to your actual experience.

There are definitely things about a school that I think can make a person happy: being near family, being in a city you want to live in, being with or near a SO, etc.. I think those things are absolutely worth considering in the "happiness" criterion. But trying to choose a school based on how you perceive your experience will be as student - especially if that choice is going to put you in WAY more debt - is extremely unwise.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
FSU2013 said:
Feel free to judge, but clearly you don't get it. I lived like a pauper when I was single so that I can provide well for my wife. The sooner we are out of debt, the better life we can afford. I lived at home for one year and a crappy house (where I literally paid my rent with sweat equity) for two years of med school before I was married, because it's easy to do that when you're a single male. I went to a school where my cumulative cost of tuition over 4 years was only about 80k before any scholarships exactly so that I CAN provide my wife a great lifestyle in the future. The way I see it, the more debt you take on as a single man, the more money you're taking away from your future family. It an awful idea to spend an extra 100-200k when you're in your 20's. In a few years, if my wife says "honey, I think that range rover is cute" - it's hers; if she says "Lets go back to Europe," we can go that weekend; if we decide we want to send our kids to an expensive private school, we won't have to think twice about it. Thats something you just can't do when you're paying off 300k in debt.

In the words of Clark Howard, "Live like no one else now so you can live like no one else later."
Click to expand...

Thank you for this response. People should really look up what the Marshmallow Effect is.

As a side note, I remember reading somewhere that (as long as you go to a US school) it doesn't really matter where you went if you do well in classes and your steps, and in the end your patients aren't really going to care where you came from but the bank will still want their money.
 
I am curious then. What is an allowable difference in tuition?

Obviously if school A is 25K/yr and school B is 50K/yr, go to school A, the cheaper school.

But what if one schools is 35K/yr and another is 39K/yr? At what difference in cost would you say the future debt and interest become noticeable?
 
FSU2013 said:
Being "militant" wasn't my intent. It's just frustrating seeing 100 threads asking "Well, my state school only costs $20k a year and XYZ Private/Ivy/Out-of-state schools costs $50k a year, but I REEEEEAAALLLY like it and I don't think I would be happy at my state school. Plus, I mean, it is XYZ school and I could have better research opportunities and famous LOR writers."

People just don't get it. Sure, you may LOVE the 4 years you spend at U of Whatever COM, but then you have to move to BFE to get a salary high enough to pay off your loans, or you have to take a job as a hospitals for 3 years to pay off your loans and never end up going to fellowship because by then you have a wife and kids, or you end up being 40 still driving a busted car and being upside down in your mortgage with no savings for retirement, or you have to tell your wife you just can't afford the house she loves or the vacation she wants to go on, or you're going to have to go into private practice when you really want to go into academics because you are paying 4k a month in loans.

As a profession, we do an extremely poor job with financial education and fiscal responsibility. Plus, we see how our attendings and parents live and think we should live like that now. The more debt we, as a profession, take on, the less autonomy we have and the more we are indentured to the loan companies and subsequently the gov't. We're giving up our professional autonomy by having so many graduating doctors with 300k in debt.



Feel free to judge, but clearly you don't get it. I lived like a pauper when I was single so that I can provide well for my wife. The sooner we are out of debt, the better life we can afford. I lived at home for one year and a crappy house (where I literally paid my rent with sweat equity) for two years of med school before I was married, because it's easy to do that when you're a single male. I went to a school where my cumulative cost of tuition over 4 years was only about 80k before any scholarships exactly so that I CAN provide my wife a great lifestyle in the future. The way I see it, the more debt you take on as a single man, the more money you're taking away from your future family. It an awful idea to spend an extra 100-200k when you're in your 20's. In a few years, if my wife says "honey, I think that range rover is cute" - it's hers; if she says "Lets go back to Europe," we can go that weekend; if we decide we want to send our kids to an expensive private school, we won't have to think twice about it. Thats something you just can't do when you're paying off 300k in debt.

In the words of Clark Howard, "Live like no one else now so you can live like no one else later."
Click to expand...

👍

It's nice to get some perspective on this issue. Happiness is very much a long term issue which pre-meds sometimes don't have a grasp on. It's always nice to get 4th years and residents/attending a perspective (those with a little more wisdom). Thanks for the input!
 
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zeppelinpage4 said:
I am curious then. What is an allowable difference in tuition?

Obviously if school A is 25K/yr and school B is 50K/yr, go to school A, the cheaper school.

But what if one schools is 35K/yr and another is 39K/yr? At what difference in cost would you say the future debt and interest become noticeable?
Click to expand...

That is still a pretty large difference ($20k in principal, more with interest) but it ultimately comes down to what is important. I'm currently at a place that costs me $20k more over four years compared to my state school, but it was worth it for me since I have almost zero undergrad debt and will still have relatively little debt when everything is said and done. If you're leaving undergrad already six figures in the hole, IMO you should be working to save as much money as possible.

It's a hard question to answer because it depends on each person's priorities. I don't think there's a wrong answer; you just need to be EDUCATED about your decision and know what you're getting yourself into. I think that's where a lot of pre-meds falter; they have unrealistic assumptions or simply don't understand how debt works and how it will directly and tangibly impact your life for a long time in the future. If you are aware of those things, then it all comes down to what is important to YOU.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Sodium22 said:
Thank you for this response. People should really look up what the Marshmallow Effect is.

As a side note, I remember reading somewhere that (as long as you go to a US school) it doesn't really matter where you went if you do well in classes and your steps, and in the end your patients aren't really going to care where you came from but the bank will still want their money.
Click to expand...

The marshmallow study counters that post. Taking on more debt means you are waiting longer for the reward, I.e. house, range rover, etc... Because its taking you longer to pay off the loan.
 
zeppelinpage4 said:
I am curious then. What is an allowable difference in tuition?

Obviously if school A is 25K/yr and school B is 50K/yr, go to school A, the cheaper school.

But what if one schools is 35K/yr and another is 39K/yr? At what difference in cost would you say the future debt and interest become noticeable?
Click to expand...

Based on DoktorMoms math earlier, its probably like an extra 75 bucks (rounded) a month for ten years which turns your 4K difference to 9K. It's really up to how much you think that's worth to you.
 
pre med 2014 said:
The marshmallow study counters that post. Taking on more debt means you are waiting longer for the reward, I.e. house, range rover, etc... Because its taking you longer to pay off the loan.
Click to expand...

I was coming from the point that you would delay "happiness" temporarily and go to a cheaper school to have more debt free "happiness" later on.
 
zeppelinpage4 said:
I am curious then. What is an allowable difference in tuition?

Obviously if school A is 25K/yr and school B is 50K/yr, go to school A, the cheaper school.

But what if one schools is 35K/yr and another is 39K/yr? At what difference in cost would you say the future debt and interest become noticeable?
Click to expand...

There's no set amount. It depends on the person, the options, family situation, future family situation, future income potential, length of residency/fellowship, etc. Anything more than a couple thousand a year would be more than a nominal amount and would give me pause.
 
pre med 2014 said:
The marshmallow study counters that post. Taking on more debt means you are waiting longer for the reward, I.e. house, range rover, etc... Because its taking you longer to pay off the loan.
Click to expand...

No, it means you are taking the marshmallow now. There's no reasonable person who would say that borrowing money for an expensive good is "delayed gratification." By definition, you are taking something now instead of taking twice that in the future. That's exactly what the study was about.


NickNaylor said:
That is still a pretty large difference ($20k in principal, more with interest) but it ultimately comes down to what is important. I'm currently at a place that costs me $20k more over four years compared to my state school, but it was worth it for me since I have almost zero undergrad debt and will still have relatively little debt when everything is said and done. If you're leaving undergrad already six figures in the hole, IMO you should be working to save as much money as possible.

It's a hard question to answer because it depends on each person's priorities. I don't think there's a wrong answer; you just need to be EDUCATED about your decision and know what you're getting yourself into. I think that's where a lot of pre-meds falter; they have unrealistic assumptions or simply don't understand how debt works and how it will directly and tangibly impact your life for a long time in the future. If you are aware of those things, then it all comes down to what is important to YOU.

Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...

This. Like Nick says, a lot of people simple see a big number and say "it will be fine because I'll be making a lot of money" and don't understand that there will be a tangible effect. They don't realize that your 250k/year goes to 200k after taxes and med mal (extremely conservatively, much higher if you live in certain states), 160k after saving for retirement, 140k after health/disability/life/home owners/car insurance, 120k if you tithe, 105k after car payment/gas/maintenance. All of a sudden that "unspendably large" income leaves you with about 8k a month. Put 3k towards student loans and you're now looking at having less than 5k/month to spend on housing, food, entertainment, home maintenance, stuff for your kids +/- tuition, entertainment, etc. You can easily end up being paid 250k a year but only having 2k a month to spend on renting a crappy apartment or owning a home that looks like your on a resident's budget.
 
NickNaylor said:
There are definitely things about a school that I think can make a person happy: being near family, being in a city you want to live in, being with or near a SO, etc.. I think those things are absolutely worth considering in the "happiness" criterion.
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I was sort of assuming, perhaps erroneously, this situation especially the family aspect because I had to make a very similar choice recently. I get being financially responsible and not digging yourself into a insurmountable hole, but for me and my family growing up money wasn't ever the most important aspect of life. I feel like I would be perfectly happy not having a huge house with a Mercedes in the garage, trips to Europe, or retirement by 60, but I suppose I've never been in the position to be able to, so who knows.

To be honest, I approached this thread knowing that the responses would overwhelmingly be toward the cheaper option. I just wanted to perhaps offer a reason for the opposite. Maybe I came on too strong by saying "most important consideration." Had I been placed with the same situation, I would have not immediately taken the more expensive option due to short-term happiness. I would crunch the numbers the get a realistic idea of what the difference actually will mean in the long-run and then make my decision, but to just blindly say "always take the cheaper option" seems a little rash.
 
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solesurprise said:
Idk, he's the one talking about trips to Europe multiple times a year . . .
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Only once this year :-( Did spend a week in the Caribbean though. May try to make it back to France before residency starts.

There really is something to be said for doing undergrad where you have a full ride, working and saving money all throughout undergrad, going to the cheapest med school you can, buying a used car cash and driving it until the wheels fall off, not having credit cards, keeping a part time job, being willing to suck up your pride and live with your folks, staying on couches for residency interviews, doing home improvements yourself, refinishing old furniture instead of buying new, marrying a fiscally responsible woman (most important), etc. (Man, i gotta work on my run-ons).
 
DokterMom said:
Every $10,000 worth of debt at 7% interest repaid over 10 years will cost you about $116 per month.

If you're earning about $200K per year pre-tax, one or two of these $10K increments won't have much impact on your lifestyle (cable bill), but four or five will be noticed (think driving a junker vs. a great new car); 10 or 20 will be a total lifestyle changer (apartment vs. nice house).

Don't go somewhere that will make you miserable. But weight the difference between 'good enough' and 'like better' pretty carefully. You will be paying for it...
Click to expand...

Could you please elaborate on this? Is this assuming 10 years starting from residency? Because interest now grows during med schools.

Or is that 112/month STARTING 4 years after loan is taken?

I calculated a total repayment of 295K for a 220K loan, which is hardly the 440K that would be calculated on SDN using the 'interest doubles your loan' commonly held belief on the Internet.

would it actually be about 320K total if you assume about ~25K of interest accrues in med school? Or still the 295K?

Thanks
 
pre med 2014 said:
Could you please elaborate on this? Is this assuming 10 years starting from residency? Because interest now grows during med schools.

Or is that 112/month STARTING 4 years after loan is taken?

I calculated a total repayment of 295K for a 220K loan, which is hardly the 440K that would be calculated on SDN using the 'interest doubles your loan' commonly held belief on the Internet.

would it actually be about 320K total if you assume about ~25K of interest accrues in med school? Or still the 295K?

Thanks
Click to expand...

No. That is owing 10k at the time repayment begins, whenever that is. That means that you are borrowing less, significantly less if you don't pay during residency.

Just as an example:
If you borrow 50k (so, only 25k for tuition and 25k for living) a year for 4 years of med school, you will owe $236.4k at graduation. If you do 3 years of residency without making payments, you're at $288k. If you do another 3 years of fellowship without paying, you're at $350.8k. If you pay that off over 10 years, that's over $4k a month. I don't care how much you make, that's a boatload of money.

To put that in perspective, that's 10 years of mortgage payment on a 15y mortgage after 20% down of a home costing $700,000 at today's interest rates.

Obviously, not everyone does 6 years of residency/fellowship and some people pay something during residency/fellowship. Also, people will shout "what about PSLF" - I wouldn't bet my future home on it being around in >10y, our country is broke and people aren't going to be crying about "rich" doctors not getting help on their student loans.

Just think, these numbers are appx the tuition of a state school in a relatively average cost-of-living city with no undergrad loans. That's about what tuition runs at my school, the cheapest school in the state and about 10k/year less than allotted in the cost-of-attendence estimated by my school. Think what happens to those numbers if you go private/out-of-state for med school and pay 45-60k/y, rack up 100k in undergrad debt, max out on your living expenses or live in a place like NYC, Boston, SF, etc.

I know this isn't news for most people, but for anyone who hasn't ever actually seen the numbers or really thought about it, they are staggering.
 
you won't only be paying tuition but also living expenses. interest may be 6.8% for the first 40k or so but anything above that is grad plus which comes at 7.9%. if you do a fellowship or a long residency like neurosurgery, you'll be poor for a long time. it's easy to put numbers into a calculator or an excel spreadsheet but money that should be going to your loans may be diverted elsewhere. real life isn't as tidy as you might imagine.
 
FSU2013 said:
No. That is owing 10k at the time repayment begins, whenever that is. That means that you are borrowing less, significantly less if you don't pay during residency.

Just as an example:
If you borrow 50k (so, only 25k for tuition and 25k for living) a year for 4 years of med school, you will owe $236.4k at graduation. If you do 3 years of residency without making payments, you're at $288k. If you do another 3 years of fellowship without paying, you're at $350.8k. If you pay that off over 10 years, that's over $4k a month. I don't care how much you make, that's a boatload of money.

To put that in perspective, that's 10 years of mortgage payment on a 15y mortgage after 20% down of a home costing $700,000 at today's interest rates.

Obviously, not everyone does 6 years of residency/fellowship and some people pay something during residency/fellowship. Also, people will shout "what about PSLF" - I wouldn't bet my future home on it being around in >10y, our country is broke and people aren't going to be crying about "rich" doctors not getting help on their student loans.

Just think, these numbers are appx the tuition of a state school in a relatively average cost-of-living city with no undergrad loans. That's about what tuition runs at my school, the cheapest school in the state and about 10k/year less than allotted in the cost-of-attendence estimated by my school. Think what happens to those numbers if you go private/out-of-state for med school and pay 45-60k/y, rack up 100k in undergrad debt, max out on your living expenses or live in a place like NYC, Boston, SF, etc.

I know this isn't news for most people, but for anyone who hasn't ever actually seen the numbers or really thought about it, they are staggering.
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I'm not taking out a loan for living expenses, only tuition. And I you can make payments during residency. And you probably don't have to do a fellowship right after residency. All these things add up.

I bet I could pay 280K in the 3 years following med school+residency as an attending. And probably less even since I could pay 12k minimum per year during residency. That's 36K off just by living frugally as a resident assuming a 3 year residency.
 
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pre med 2014 said:
I'm not taking out a loan for living expenses, only tuition. And I you can make payments during residency. And you probably don't have to do a fellowship right after residency. All these things add up.

I bet I could pay 280K in the 3 years following med school+residency as an attending. And probably less even since I could pay 12k minimum per year during residency. That's 36K off just by living frugally as a resident assuming a 3 year residency.
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280k over 3 years is roughly $8k/mo in student loans. That is an insane amount that would be extremely difficult to make consistently unless 1) you're single (ie, no wife to impress and no kids to care for), 2) you're in a high paying position, and 3) your standard of living is garbage.

I will be extremely impressed if you pay off $280k on loans in three years. It's not impossible (well, actually it is for a lot situations), but that has to be your sole priority. It's also very easy to say these things before you have even begun medical school. You will be 29 at the youngest when you finish residency. You probably won't want to share an apartment with some "bros" or be eating ramen at that point in your life.

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pre med 2014 said:
I'm not taking out a loan for living expenses, only tuition. And I you can make payments during residency. And you probably don't have to do a fellowship right after residency. All these things add up.

I bet I could pay 280K in the 3 years following med school+residency as an attending. And probably less even since I could pay 12k minimum per year during residency. That's 36K off just by living frugally as a resident assuming a 3 year residency.
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That's fine. And all that is certainly possible, but a lot of it is unlikely.

First off, paying $1,000 a month in residency is going to be no small task. I'll be taking home $3,150 a month next year after taxes. You're talking about living off of $2,150 a month for health insurance, housing, utilities, food, car, gas, insurance, cell, entertainment, incidentals, etc. that's a really tall order. God forbid you live in an expensive city. Further, that $1k a month wouldn't even cover your interest - it would be a break even proposition at best.

Second, the same goes for paying 100k a year towards student loans as a new attending.
Your interest alone will be in the tens of thousands a year. You will be in an extremely high tax bracket, have other significant expenses (insurance/malpractice/etc) and you will surely be tired of living as a pauper. It's possible, but life happens. You'll eventually need to buy a new car/have a kid/get married/whatever.

Lastly, that was kinda my point about fellowship. It would be highly uncommon for someone to go back to fellowship after being an attending for 3 years. First, it's a $200k/y pay cut. You also would be having a huge jump in work hours. By that point, you may have a wife and kids who don't love the idea of you working an extra 20-30h a week and an enormous pay cut, not the mention the possibility of having to move. You may have a house that you may not be able to sell easily, you have a group of friends, etc. Again, it if possible. I know 1 attending who did fellowship after a few years, but I know 4 IM MDs who took a "temporary job" until they paid off their loans/finished their military commitment and, yada yada yada, they're in the 40s-50s.

I'm just saying you need to think about your future, especially if youve been bit by the "prestige bug.". How would you like to have a shot of doing residency at MGH but turn it town because it would cost $2k/mo for rent? Have a shot at doing fellowship at Hopkins, but you have to give it up to work as a hospitality? Want to do a 5 year residency but actually give up your chosen career because you have insurmountable debt? Fall in love with academics and research but have to go PP because the pay.
Or even worse, go to med school for a couple years, realize you hate medicine but have 2-300k in debt. Good luck finding a non-medical job to pay that off.

If you're young, you'll be best served in the long run by fiscal responsibility and delayed gratification. Period.
 
pre med 2014 said:
Agreed. But if you only get into a 50K school it's not unmanageable.
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Agreed. If it's 50k tuition or not going to med school, you take the debt. You just have to live as frugally as possible, try to find a residency in a cheap place with robust moonlighting and you do everything you can to get scholarship/help from family/part-time work. The cost of losing a year's income as an attending (and the possibility of not getting in again at all) is certainly more than the difference in tuition over 4y. If it's state school and 20k or another school for 50k, you're making a life-altering financial mistake with decades of repercussions.
 
NickNaylor said:
280k over 3 years is roughly $8k/mo in student loans. That is an insane amount that would be extremely difficult to make consistently unless 1) you're single (ie, no wife to impress and no kids to care for), 2) you're in a high paying position, and 3) your standard of living is garbage.

I will be extremely impressed if you pay off $280k on loans in three years. It's not impossible (well, actually it is for a lot situations), but that has to be your sole priority. It's also very easy to say these things before you have even begun medical school. You will be 29 at the youngest when you finish residency. You probably won't want to share an apartment with some "bros" or be eating ramen at that point in your life.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717
Click to expand...

I think I can do it. I'm on track to pay off 20K off undergrad loans in one year of work on about a 30K salary. (I'm at 10K paid over last 6 months, gonna be doing another 10k over the next 6 months). But I live at my parents house that saves me 8K a year in rent. And I eat their food.

If my employment post undergrad is an indication I think I can pay 66% of my income towards loans as attending as well. Thats 100K per year on 150K take home, and 66% of 150K is easier than 66% of 30K. Hopefully I still won't be single but how much can a girlfriend cost anyways? Dinner here and there, maybe a present for a birthday.

50K is the median income in your average county and you could live on it. I have no desire to buy a house but I guess that could change in 5+ years. Otherwise I am intending on hammering out loan payments as fast as possible I hate interest.
 
pre med 2014 said:
i think i can do it. I'm on track to pay off 20k off undergrad loans in one year of work on about a 30k salary. (i'm at 10k paid over last 6 months, gonna be doing another 10k over the next 6 months). But i live at my parents house that saves me 8k a year in rent. And i eat their food.

If my employment post undergrad is an indication i think i can pay 66% of my income towards loans as attending as well. Thats 100k per year on 150k take home, and 66% of 150k is easier than 66% of 30k. hopefully i still won't be single but how much can a girlfriend cost anyways? Dinner here and there, maybe a present for a birthday.

50k is the median income in your average county and you could live on it. I have no desire to buy a house but i guess that could change in 5+ years. Otherwise i am intending on hammering out loan payments as fast as possible i hate interest.
Click to expand...

hahahaha
 
pre med 2014 said:
I guess this thread is more about 55K vs 40K.

20 vs 50 is a no brainer
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Thats still an extra 60 grand.

And if you wanted to pay that pack IMMEDIATELY after school within 10 years, its about an extra $700 a month. This is not taking into account accruing interest during residency. This is also assuming 7% interest per year.
 
The guy who taught my MCAT class went to Harvard for medical school. He told us the only difference between his education and any other physician's education was that he paid significantly more money. He was on the adcom for 3 different schools and was an advocate for picking a cheap school. That being said you need to consider what you want your career to be like. If you want to cure cancer you will probably have to go to a top 25, expensive, private school.
 
premed071291 said:
The guy who taught my MCAT class went to Harvard for medical school. He told us the only difference between his education and any other physician's education was that he paid significantly more money. He was on the adcom for 3 different schools and was an advocate for picking a cheap school. That being said you need to consider what you want your career to be like. If you want to cure cancer you will probably have to go to a top 25, expensive, private school.
Click to expand...

Obviously. God only blesses top 25 school med students with beautiful minds.
 
Last edited:
NickNaylor said:
Just watch out - it requires Introduction to Saving the World 100 as a pre-req.

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But hey if you pass those, you'll be able to take: The Path to Becoming a Triple Nobel Laureate While Maintaining Your Career as Surgeon General
 
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