School Ranking vs Attending Salary

[EdgeTrimmer]

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LOL, I only used Harvard because it had been in the post....No affiliation. I never thought that the Ivys were the top of the food chain, but I believe you would still get good training, maybe not the best, and the name will probably open some doors.

Ivies opens the doors but does not fill the wallet 🙂 If you paid full price for Ivy you don't need to carry the wallet for long time.

 

[KnightDoc]

True, but that same "Harvard-trained clinician "will have more opportunities when finishing up residency, which will likely lead to higher salaries in a prominent practice.

If you say so. All of the actual med students and practicing clinicians say otherwise. An orthopedist is an orthopedist. There is a high demand, they all have no problem finding work, and, at least starting out, they are all paid the same in a given area. It's not like law or business, where if you don't come out of a big name program it's tough getting hired.

The parents who think coming from a T10 means having an easier time finding work, at a higher salary, act as though it's not easy for everyone, no matter what name is on their piece of paper, to find work, particularly in the competitive specialties, and as though salaries are not pretty high for everyone, with zero economic incentive to pay more for a prominent pedigree that just doesn't translate to higher billing rates..

Prominent practices don't get reimbursed at a higher rate than less prominent ones. If they were to pay Harvard trained clinicians at a higher rate, that differential would be coming right out of their owners' pockets. And, people who know what they are talking about say that just doesn't happen.

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

Prominent practices don't get reimbursed at a higher rate than less prominent ones. If they were to pay Harvard trained clinicians at a higher rate, that differential would be coming right out of their owners' pockets. And, people who know what they are talking about say that just doesn't happen.

Who said they did, It was delving into successful practices that translates into more money, not about whether the medicare reimbursement rate is the same. I forgot, this is SDN, as a pre-med, I'm sure you have all the insight...SMH.

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

The parents who think coming from a T10 means having an easier time finding work, at a higher salary, act as though it's not easy for everyone, no matter what name is on their piece of paper, to find work, particularly in the competitive specialties, and as though salaries are not pretty high for everyone, with zero economic incentive to pay more for a prominent pedigree that just doesn't translate to higher billing rates..

Again, who are these so-called parents you are referring to or is it that you are assuming what you wrote? So, are you saying that coming from a t-10, doesn't help?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Who said they did, It was delving into a successful practices that translates into more money, not about whether the medicare reimbursement rate is the same. I forgot, this is SDN, as a pre-med, I'm sure you have all the insight...SMH.

Actually, bigger groups have the power to negotiate for higher rates from insurance companies and that's oen reason smaller groups are folding.

 

[proudofmykids]

Even then, who pays a premium based on where someone trained? Which insurance company, employer or patient?

All we actually have are proud parents conjuring up hypothetical scenarios where their T10 kids earn significant, performance based bonuses out of the box because they will have months' long waiting lists to be seen as soon as they are hired, based on NOTHING more than their pedigree, while their DO and unranked MD colleagues in the same specialty are twiddling their thumbs waiting to be dismissed due to their inability to attract business as picky patients consult US News before making appointments or accepting referrals from their primary physicians.

Even then, who pays a premium based on where someone trained? Which insurance company, employer or patient?

All we actually have are proud parents conjuring up hypothetical scenarios where their T10 kids earn significant, performance based bonuses out of the box because they will have months' long waiting lists to be seen as soon as they are hired, based on NOTHING more than their pedigree, while their DO and unranked MD colleagues in the same specialty are twiddling their thumbs waiting to be dismissed due to their inability to attract business as picky patients consult US News before making appointments or accepting referrals from their primary physicians.

The time frame of higher compensation I have only referenced, are the first few years until a practice is built and physician is filling their time with higher RVU patient visits and procedures.
While growing a practice when early in a new career, all you have is no reputation and a webpage with your photo and credentials to attract new patients!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You really know how to place unspoken words and thoughts in other peoples mouth. Maybe that’s all you do since applying isn’t something you actually do?

The time frame of higher compensation I have only referenced, are the first few years until a practice is built and physician is filling their time with higher RVU patient visits and procedures.

Discussing a topic includes listening, and none of your responses indicate you can stay on topic with respect to my comments about growing a practice and production based compensation when early in a new career, all you have is no reputation and a webpage with your photo and credentials to attract new patients! No insurance payment premiums expected, mentioned, nor relevant to my posts discussing the first few years and growth rate.

The vast majority of physicians are not in an eat what you kill model directly out of training. Even in private practice or community set ups you will be salaried for at least a few years before you are transitioned to production based.

Even if they were, the tier of school (or even residency really) doesn't matter at all.

 

[proudofmykids]

The vast majority of physicians are not in an eat what you kill model directly out of training. Even in private practice or community set ups you will be salaried for at least a few years before you are transitioned to production based.

Even if they were, the tier of school (or even residency really) doesn't matter at all.

And even salaried physicians, whether private practice or hospital based are eligible for bonuses, most of which are based on how well they are growing their practice and productivity.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And even salaried physicians, whether private practice or hospital based are eligible for bonuses, most of which are based on how well they are growing their practice and productivity.

It’s like you are intentionally missing the point.....

What you are describing has absolutely nothing to do with prestige.

 

[KnightDoc]

It’s like you are intentionally missing the point.....

What you are describing has absolutely nothing to do with prestige.

Her point is that patients are going to flock to the newbies with the fancy names on their web profiles, and that's going to lead to big bonuses as compared to their similarly situated colleagues from non T10 schools, because lay people are all intimately familiar with the nuances of which school has the most highly ranked residency programs in all the hot specialties, and they're going to wait as long as it takes to get an appointment with these newbies instead of taking one with whichever newbie has an opening.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The vast majority of physicians are not in an eat what you kill model directly out of training. Even in private practice or community set ups you will be salaried for at least a few years before you are transitioned to production based.

Even if they were, the tier of school (or even residency really) doesn't matter at all.

^^^^^^^^^This.... If a private group hires a newbie , it is almost always with at least 1 probation year, usually 2 to 3 years. This allows you to "Buy" in to the accounts receivable, i.e.... The Practice.. I joined a private group as a boarded fellowship trained individual with several years experience and my buy in to the group took 5 years.

 

[KnightDoc]

Just curious, are you a pre-med, med student, resident...? It appears by your responses you are the "man of knowledge" It is sad that you THINK you know all the answers because you have visited SDN a million times. News alert, you actually come off with no credibility. I'm not trying to bash you, but preview your posts before hitting that button. A person should be able to post without you coming off like you have all the answers, rather if you are going to dispute what someone says, prove your argument.

If anyone does not believe this post, just read some of KnighDoc's posts.

I will not respond to you because I have wasted enough of my time. Best of luck to you.

You're right, I am only a pre-med, but I'm also a man of knowledge. I'm a patient, I have family members who are MDs, I have family friends who are MDs, and, I've visited SDN a million times. EVERY practicing physician who has commented on this thread has agreed with the general points I am making, so exactly why do I have no credibility?

 

[Goro]

Just curious, are you a pre-med, med student, resident...? It appears by your responses you are the "man of knowledge" It is sad that you THINK you know all the answers because you have visited SDN a million times. News alert, you actually come off with no credibility. I'm not trying to bash you, but preview your posts before hitting that button. A person should be able to post without you coming off like you have all the answers, rather if you are going to dispute what someone says, prove your argument.

If anyone does not believe this post, just read some of KnighDoc's posts.

I will not respond to you because I have wasted enough of my time. Best of luck to you.

There's a reason the Ignore function is given to us! Insufferable, know-it-all premeds of all stripes can be dispatched readily. If that doesn't work, report them

 

[proudofmykids]

It’s like you are intentionally missing the point.....

What you are describing has absolutely nothing to do with prestige.

It does! Brand new physicians for the first few years with no reputation built, have little more than a webpage and credentials to build their production. I keep saying it, assuming two in-network doctors at in the same hospital department or practice, new patients will likely pick the better credentialed physician since the senior physician schedules are full. This faster ramping of productivity will be reflected by better bonuses in the early years, and potentially faster track to making partner if a private practice.

I keep agreeing that later when schedules are full, there will be no difference in compensation assuming both have identical RVU / procedures and are on the same insurance contracts for reimbursement.(Assuming no implicit biases against gender/ race etc.)

 

[proudofmykids]

Her point is that patients are going to flock to the newbies with the fancy names on their web profiles, and that's going to lead to big bonuses as compared to their similarly situated colleagues from non T10 schools, because lay people are all intimately familiar with the nuances of which school has the most highly ranked residency programs in all the hot specialties, and they're going to wait as long as it takes to get an appointment with these newbies instead of taking one with whichever newbie has an opening.

All of the bolded above are not my words, nor do I agree. I keep indicating all else being the same, including availability.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

does! Brand new physicians for the first few years with no reputation built, have little more than a webpage and credentials to build their production. I keep saying it, assuming two in-network doctors at in the same hospital department or practice, new patients will likely pick the better credentialed physician since the senior physician schedules are full. This faster ramping of productivity will be reflected by better bonuses in the early years, and potentially faster track to making partner if a private practice.

You are wrong. It’s that simple. This isn’t how real life plays out.

 

[proudofmykids]

^^^^^^^^^This.... If a private group hires a newbie , it is almost always with at least 1 probation year, usually 2 to 3 years. This allows you to "Buy" in to the accounts receivable, i.e.... The Practice.. I joined a private group as a boarded fellowship trained individual with several years experience and my buy in to the group took 5 years.

While at the same time, I am aware of multiple physician groups that give moderate bonuses even to the new salaried physicians based on how well they are growing the productivity. Bonuses will vary if two new physicians have different growth trajectories.

 

[proudofmykids]

You are wrong. It’s that simple. This isn’t how real life plays out.

You will see you are wrong. I am not sure how many actual physicians you know and have seen compensation for as they left their training and entered the workplace. I would say I have observed two dozen actual transitions, plus multiple other specialties where I know the Managing Partner or Department Director.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You will see you are wrong. I am not sure how many actual physicians you know and have seen compensation for as they left their training and entered the workplace. I would say I have observed two dozen actual transitions, plus multiple other specialties where I know the Managing Partner or Department Director.

I know dozens of doctors who trained in a variety of settings, in a variety of specialties...

I’m not wrong.

 

[proudofmykids]

I know dozens of doctors who trained in a variety of settings, in a variety of specialties...

I’m not wrong.

And you know and have discussed wtih those dozens of doctors their specific compensation (not just salary), especially compared to others in their groups with similar experience and contrasted better training? Usually, peers don't discuss variables with each other in the same practice. Yet the Managing Partner and Department Director's I have had many conversations with are able to compare and contrast (anonymous names) actual details.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You will see you are wrong. I am not sure how many actual physicians you know and have seen compensation for as they left their training and entered the workplace. I would say I have observed two dozen actual transitions, plus multiple other specialties where I know the Managing Partner or Department Director.

There are certainly regional differences with respect to employment contracts, especially with hospital based docs. In our region, the Northeast, there is no lack of pedigree or ego. In private groups, contract equality is a real thing. Unlike pyramid arrangements in law or financial groups, most private medical groups base compensation on production, not on pedigree. With the increase of lady doctors graduating, many contracts differ due to the request for more flexible schedules. If you wish to be a full partner, you will have to prove your worth to the group and that diploma doesn't bring dollar/rvu 1. Anyone who chooses a doctor because of their diploma is, let's just say misguided.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And you know and have discussed wtih those dozens of doctors their specific compensation (not just salary), especially compared to others in their groups with similar experience and contrasted better training? Usually, peers don't discuss variables with each other in the same practice. Yet the Managing Partner and Department Director's I have had many conversations with are able to compare and contrast (anonymous names) actual details.

Good luck in your not-wrong first few years of production after training.

I am not a premed. I will be just fine when I finish my training in a few short years. If I make less than an Ivy trained colleague then I’ll let you know.

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

There's a reason the Ignore function is given to us! Insufferable, know-it-all premeds of all stripes can be dispatched readily. If that doesn't work, report them

Valid point.

 

[Goro]

It does! Brand new physicians for the first few years with no reputation built, have little more than a webpage and credentials to build their production. I keep saying it, assuming two in-network doctors at in the same hospital department or practice, new patients will likely pick the better credentialed physician since the senior physician schedules are full. This faster ramping of productivity will be reflected by better bonuses in the early years, and potentially faster track to making partner if a private practice.

How, pray tell, do patients do this if the med schools attended were NOT Yale or Harvard?

Do you really think patients are savvy to the point that they could tell the difference in reputation of Drexel vs U Penn? Most of them won't know what states they're in, including the latter school!

Of the 140+ MD schools in the US, you actually expect patients to know something of the reputations of these schools? And please don't mention USN&WR.

 

[deleted1025488]

all the prestige threads, both on the level of undergrad, medical school, residency, etc. that are posted on premed subsection just make my eyes bleed and ultimately all reach literally the same conclusion after 50 messages lmao

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

all the prestige threads, both on the level of undergrad, medical school, residency, etc. that are posted on premed subsection just make my eyes bleed and ultimately all reach literally the same conclusion after 50 messages lmao

And expect to see same topic every few days

 

[proudofmykids]

How, pray tell, do patients do this if the med schools attended were NOT Yale or Harvard?

Do you really think patients are savvy to the point that they could tell the difference in reputation of Drexel vs U Penn? Most of them won't know what states they're in, including the latter school!

Of the 140+ MD schools in the US, you actually expect patients to know something of the reputations of these schools? And please don't mention USN&WR.

I don’t expect them to know USNWR, but have general familiarity with better educational institutions from which they’ll likely extrapolate quality of doctor.

 

[TehTeddy]

How, pray tell, do patients do this if the med schools attended were NOT Yale or Harvard?

Do you really think patients are savvy to the point that they could tell the difference in reputation of Drexel vs U Penn? Most of them won't know what states they're in, including the latter school!

Of the 140+ MD schools in the US, you actually expect patients to know something of the reputations of these schools? And please don't mention USN&WR.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who said they'd definitely choose an ivy-league trained doctor over a state school doc. I said:
"Ok then, where did your doctor go to med school?"
"......"
You can try it with your friends too; they likely have no idea. Most people I know choose doctors like they choose hair stylists. Someone they trust went and recommended them.

As an aside, I notice a recurring concern on the allo boards and r/residency deals with patients seeing NPs thinking they're doctors, and the ensuing complications. If this phenomenon is pervasive enough, where many patients are unaware of the NP vs MD distinction when receiving care (or the degree to which the rigor differs), what are the odds they scrutinize ones educational credentials to the extent implied in this thread?

 

[Goro]

I don’t expect them to know USNWR, but have general familiarity with better educational institutions from which they’ll likely extrapolate quality of doctor.

Please do not indulge in the sin of solipsism.

Ask a random ten friends of yours who have no involvement with the field of Medicine, if they've ever heard of WashU, Case Western, NYU or U Pitt SOMs. As a control, ask them if they'd have a doctor who went to Princeton or Wellesley SOMs. If they answer yes, then they're either not as savvy as you presume people to be, or they're BSing you.

 

[proudofmykids]

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who said they'd definitely choose an ivy-league trained doctor over a state school doc. I said:
"Ok then, where did your doctor go to med school?"
"......"
You can try it with your friends too; they likely have no idea. Most people I know choose doctors like they choose hair stylists. Someone they trust went and recommended them.

As an aside, I notice a recurring concern on the allo boards and r/residency deals with patients seeing NPs thinking they're doctors, and the ensuing complications. If this phenomenon is pervasive enough, where many patients are unaware of the NP vs MD distinction when receiving care (or the degree to which the rigor differs), what are the odds they scrutinize ones educational credentials to the extent implied in this thread?

I 100% agree with all this.
My posts were very specific to those patients needing to select between two in-network, same department/practice newly ‘graduated’ doctors with no reputation yet to research.

 

[KnightDoc]

I 100% agree with all this.
My posts were very specific to those patients needing to select between two in-network, same department/practice newly ‘graduated’ doctors with no reputation yet to research.

And the people actually in the business, who actually know what they are talking about, have been consistently saying from the very beginning of this tread that people like all of us on SDN (including you! 🙂) are outliers, and, in all of their years of collective experience, most patients really don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC, or UPenn and Penn State, so the person with no reputation but a fancy degree has no advantage in the real world with real patients. No amount of posting that that can't possibly be true is going to change that, so what's the point of continuing this thread? In a few years, you'll see for yourself, one way or the other.

 

[proudofmykids]

Please do not indulge in the sin of solipsism.

Ask a random ten friends of yours who have no involvement with the field of Medicine, if they've ever heard of WashU, Case Western, NYU or U Pitt SOMs. As a control, ask them if they'd have a doctor who went to Princeton or Wellesley SOMs. If they answer yes, then they're either not as savvy as you presume people to be, or they're BSing you.

Living in the Midwest, your list won't serve as a good test list 🙂)

And the people actually in the business, who actually know what they are talking about, have been consistently saying from the very beginning of this tread that people like all of us on SDN (including you! 🙂) are outliers, and, in all of their years of collective experience, most patients really don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC, or UPenn and Penn State, so the person with no reputation but a fancy degree has no advantage in the real world with real patients. No amount of posting that that can't possibly be true is going to change that, so what's the point of continuing this thread? In a few years, you'll see for yourself, one way or the other.

99% of those posting here are not done with their training yet, or used the twisted scenario you changed it to, not thr one where I specifically called out the first few years when it could make the difference, all else equal (same in-network contracts, specialty, hospital Dept/practice etc).

I guess my data points from years of discussions with physicians who run 70, and 115 physician medical groups, or whomever head regional ER Physician groups that staff hospitals, Directors of ED, Cardio, Pediatrics, Oncology, and Urology departments don't carry as much weight as those that havent left their training yet. And for those here that have spoken to physicians, how many of those references had a comparative view or understanding of their peer's income (total compensation) ?

 

[spottedcory]

I don’t expect them to know USNWR, but have general familiarity with better educational institutions from which they’ll likely extrapolate quality of doctor.

I mean by this logic, I'd go Caribbean over DO since most non medicine affiliated adults in my life think that Caribbean MDs come from higher ranked schools than DOs. Heck they think Caribbean sounds fancier than Ohio State lmao

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

And the people actually in the business, who actually know what they are talking about, have been consistently saying from the very beginning of this tread that people like all of us on SDN (including you! 🙂) are outliers, and, in all of their years of collective experience, most patients really don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC, or UPenn and Penn State, so the person with no reputation but a fancy degree has no advantage in the real world with real patients. No amount of posting that that can't possibly be true is going to change that, so what's the point of continuing this thread? In a few years, you'll see for yourself, one way or the other.

I would beg to differ that "most people" don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC or UPenn and Penn State. Your obsession with thinking that someone is more worried about a "fancy degree" as opposed to the quality of training is misplaced. Are you telling me that in the examples you noted above, you honestly believe that there is no difference between the programs?

 

[HuskyMD Emeritus]

OK, I will weigh in on this. I don’t think prestige of the program matters much to vast majority of patients. Patients choose doctors based on whether the doctor is in their insurance network, and/or recommendation from family or friends. The new doctor in a large group may be preferred to some patients because it’s easier to schedule an appointment as the older established doctor already has a large panel of patients. Some patients have the opinion the recently trained doctor is more up to date in the new treatments and procedures. When I was the chief of the department (for 18 years, and I hired almost everyone in my department), my decision on which person to hire was based on personally talking to the LOR writers and interviewing the candidates; where he or she graduated from had no influence. My colleagues are all highly regarded by the patients and the medical centers (we cover 2 hospital ICUs).

In the inpatient setting, it matters even less. When a patient rolls into the ED, do they chose the ED doctor based on where he or she graduated from? A patient with an acute STEMI being taken to the cath lab is going to pick and choose the cardiologist? He will take whoever is on call. A patient in septic shock or acute respiratory failure will worry about where the intensivist on call graduated from? In the inpatient setting, there is no choice, it’s whoever is on call.

Where one graduated from has no bearing on pay in the community because Medicare and insurance companies don’t make the distinction. Within medical groups, if you have people with the same level of experience paid differently for doing the same work, you will have resentment, loss of collaboration and risk for discrimination lawsuits.

 

[KnightDoc]

I mean by this logic, I'd go Caribbean over DO since most non medicine affiliated adults in my life think that Caribbean MDs come from higher ranked schools than DOs. Heck they think Caribbean sounds fancier than Ohio State lmao

You might be joking, but plenty ot people choose a Caribbean MD over a US DO for this very reason.

 

[KnightDoc]

I would beg to differ that "most people" don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC or UPenn and Penn State. Your obsession with thinking that someone is more worried about a "fancy degree" as opposed to the quality of training is misplaced. Are you telling me that in the examples you noted above, you honestly believe that there is no difference between the programs?

Not at all. Going back to the very beginning of the thread, the question was whether school rank would impact attending salary, and the resounding response from EVERYONE in a position to know was a big fat NO. That does not mean that Penn=Drexel, or that NYU =NYMC, with respect to quality of program, opportunities for research and ability to make connections, etc.!!! All it means is that after training is done, starting compensation is the same for everyone in a given geography practicing in a given specialty. The Drexel orthopedist will make more than the Penn pediatrician, but the Penn neurosurgeon will make exactly the same as the one from Drexel, assuming they are both attendings in the Penn Health System.

The "better" schools will give you "better" opportunities to match to "better" residencies, but, at the end of the day, the superstars will reveal themselves, wherever they go to school. What I honestly believe is that all newly hired physicians are busy, lay people really don't know that NYU is a T10 program, or the difference between Penn and Penn State, insurance companies and patients don't pay premiums for high ranked programs, so neither do employers, and the rare patient who actually cares about these things probably won't allow any newbie to touch them, no matter where they trained.

Just this week, in another thread, a current applicant (or their parent) had no idea that Cornell was in NYC and not Ithaca, so be very careful before making assumptions regarding the level of knowledge of "most people"! "Most people" are not med students, doctors, or highly engaged parents whose kids are aspiring physicians. So, no, while common sense might dictate to you and a few other posters that high ranked programs should translate to increased compensation, right out of the box, that has never been cited by people who know what they are talking about as a reason to chase such programs, so I'm going with that.

For the record, some of the very same people strenuously arguing for this value gap also proved themselves unwilling to pay a premium for T10 degrees for their children, or for one T10 degree over another. They were shocked and upset that the schools refused to engage in bidding wars for the honor of educating their children, and ultimately ended up choosing the program that was not the highest ranked, but was the least expensive.

Why wouldn't employers do the same, and hire the less expensive newbie??? THIS, plus the fact that insurance companies and patients don't pay at a higher rate, is why graduates from top ranked programs don't command compensation premiums. They wouldn't get them, and they'd be forced to accept whatever everyone else competing for the same jobs receive, which is exactly what happens!!! 🙂

Maybe some employers are impressed with top programs, but many just don't care, and there is plenty of work for everyone, so nobody pays premiums for some schools as compared to others. In a world where it's easy for every well qualified physician to find work, what is the value of some people maybe having it be a little bit easier, when starting compensation is the same for everyone? Ultimately, THAT is the economic premium attached to the difference between the programs. Zero.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I would beg to differ that "most people" don't know the difference between NYU and NYMC or UPenn and Penn State. Your obsession with thinking that someone is more worried about a "fancy degree" as opposed to the quality of training is misplaced. Are you telling me that in the examples you noted above, you honestly believe that there is no difference between the programs?

The average person has zero clue. A lot of people would probably think NYU and NYMC are the same thing...

As to the topic I know it hurts some peoples pride, but that shiny degree doesn’t make anyone more money.

 

[Goro]

The average person has zero clue. A lot of people would probably think NYU and NYMC are the same thing...

As to the topic I know it hurts some peoples pride, but that shiny degree doesn’t make anyone more money.

For some SDNers, getting into a Top School and/or a Top Residency seems more important than actually being a doctor.

 

[deleted1064759]

I've been in contact with a handful of surgeons performing a novel, highly-controversial, and dangerous operation in their field; one of them is a DO and the rest are MDs trained at Sinai/Hopkins/Harvard/HSS/other top institutions. I've explicitly asked those that have trained at these prestigious institutions if it made a difference in acquiring new patients/increasing RVUs for their practice and the answer was unanimously yes. I've also looked into survey data for patients interested in this operation and it seemed to support these biases in physician impressions.

I was a bit surprised at this since I am one of those people who doesn't really care at all about prestige and am still mostly using COA to make my decision for the school I'll be heading to this Fall, but this really opened my eyes because [one of] my goal(s) is to match the same specialty and offer the same procedure to my patients one day.

My realization is that for most people (probably 95%+ cases), it does not matter at all the prestige of the institution, outside of academia. This is just a very niche area of medicine I am thinking about. The patients who choose to undergo this procedure are also much more knowledgeable and self-motivated than the general population.

To those referring about previous renditions of this type of thread, I did my research and wasn't able to find anything that comes close to my OP (ranking vs salary), so this thread was definitely necessary. I also realize that this hypothetical I've drawn up -- matching this specialty and doing a fellowship with one of these surgeons -- is very much subject to change, but I always like to keep my rolodex occupied.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I've been in contact with a handful of surgeons performing a novel, highly-controversial, and dangerous operation in their field; one of them is a DO and the rest are MDs trained at Sinai/Hopkins/Harvard/HSS/other top institutions. I've explicitly asked those that have trained at these prestigious institutions if it made a difference in acquiring new patients/increasing RVUs for their practice and the answer was unanimously yes. I've also looked into survey data for patients interested in this operation and it seemed to support these biases in physician impressions.

I was a bit surprised at this since I am one of those people who doesn't really care at all about prestige and am still mostly using COA to make my decision for the school I'll be heading to this Fall, but this really opened my eyes because [one of] my goal(s) is to match the same specialty and offer the same procedure to my patients one day.

My realization is that for most people (probably 95%+ cases), it does not matter at all the prestige of the institution, outside of academia. This is just a very niche area of medicine I am thinking about. The patients who choose to undergo this procedure are also much more knowledgeable and self-motivated than the general population.

To those referring about previous renditions of this type of thread, I did my research and wasn't able to find anything that comes close to my OP (ranking vs salary), so this thread was definitely necessary. I also realize that this hypothetical I've drawn up -- matching this specialty and doing a fellowship with one of these surgeons -- is very much subject to change, but I always like to keep my rolodex occupied.

This response is rather different from your OP. You have intrigued me with this " highly controversial and dangerous procedure". Can you name this dangerous procedure? In your OP, you were asking in general if the school you graduated from, or residency mattered in attending salary. Going from the general question to a dangerous niche surgery is quite a leap. Now we are in niche categories. I'm pretty sure U Penn can't teach.me how to remove a gallbladder better than U Toledo. ( sorry to pick on Toledo, but it just sounds less prestigious than " The Brigham".) To answer your OP question, the answer is no.

 

[KnightDoc]

I've been in contact with a handful of surgeons performing a novel, highly-controversial, and dangerous operation in their field; one of them is a DO and the rest are MDs trained at Sinai/Hopkins/Harvard/HSS/other top institutions. I've explicitly asked those that have trained at these prestigious institutions if it made a difference in acquiring new patients/increasing RVUs for their practice and the answer was unanimously yes. I've also looked into survey data for patients interested in this operation and it seemed to support these biases in physician impressions.

I was a bit surprised at this since I am one of those people who doesn't really care at all about prestige and am still mostly using COA to make my decision for the school I'll be heading to this Fall, but this really opened my eyes because [one of] my goal(s) is to match the same specialty and offer the same procedure to my patients one day.

My realization is that for most people (probably 95%+ cases), it does not matter at all the prestige of the institution, outside of academia. This is just a very niche area of medicine I am thinking about. The patients who choose to undergo this procedure are also much more knowledgeable and self-motivated than the general population.

To those referring about previous renditions of this type of thread, I did my research and wasn't able to find anything that comes close to my OP (ranking vs salary), so this thread was definitely necessary. I also realize that this hypothetical I've drawn up -- matching this specialty and doing a fellowship with one of these surgeons -- is very much subject to change, but I always like to keep my rolodex occupied.

Very interesting!!! Personally, I have zero doubt that what you have researched is valid and true, but as you said, it is so niche that it doesn't apply to 95%+ of us, so there is no way that the back and forth on this thread would be relevant to what you are looking at. That said, I can only speak for myself in saying I still found the thread valuable in reaffirming what I was pretty sure I already knew.

While some accuse us of chasing prestige for its own sake, I disagree and think there is value to keeping as many doors open as possible, as long as you can justify differences in COA, if any, and even if you in end up in the 95%+ where you can't monetize it in the future. JMHO as someone one year behind you who would absolutely spend more to have a better chance to match into a niche I was interested in, even if it ended up not working out. Good luck!!!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This response is rather different from your OP. You have intrigued me with this " highly controversial and dangerous procedure". Can you name this dangerous procedure? In your OP, you were asking in general if the school you graduated from, or residency mattered in attending salary. Going from the general question to a dangerous niche surgery is quite a leap. Now we are in niche categories. I'm pretty sure U Penn can't teach.me how to remove a gallbladder better than U Toledo. ( sorry to pick on Toledo, but it just sounds less prestigious than " The Brigham".) To answer your OP question, the answer is no.

Yeah I was going to say, the situation just described is completely different. Niche procedures that require patients to seek out the rare doctors that do them don't really apply to the OP.

 

[LaughingGas10]

For some SDNers, getting into a Top School and/or a Top Residency seems more important than actually being a doctor.

This is a statement which is being repeated several times in SDN. It depends on what your motivation to be a "doctor" is.

If your intention is to be one of the majority of practising physicians (>80% of physicians fit this description), being in private practice or being employed in a hospital system, most medical schools would do just fine.

If you want to be a translational physician, pioneering surgeon, or a lead academician, who is at the top of the field, changing the lives of patients across the globe you have never met, or advancing the health care policies of countless generations, then YES, there is nothing wrong in aspiring to be at a relevant top school (johns hopkins or emory to have access to NIH/ CDC respectively, Harvard medical school/ UCSF if you want to do translational research, Cleveland Clinic/ Mayo Clinic if you want to pioneer novel surgical modalities). can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked MD school or a DO school, maybe, but it is extremely tough. can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked residency, maybe, but it gets to be highly unlikely.

I am not sure, why students who post about wanting to go to one of the premier institutions in medicine, get slammed around in SDN. There is nothing wrong in reaching for the moonshot if that is what you want to do in life. We NEED these "doctors" too, to prevent the stagnation of the field, and discover medical advances.

 

[KnightDoc]

This is a statement which is being repeated several times in SDN. It depends on what your motivation to be a "doctor" is.

If your intention is to be one of the majority of practising physicians (>80% of physicians fit this description), being in private practice or being employed in a hospital system, most medical schools would do just fine.

If you want to be a translational physician, pioneering surgeon, or a lead academician, who is at the top of the field, changing the lives of patients across the globe you have never met, or advancing the health care policies of countless generations, then YES, there is nothing wrong in aspiring to be at a relevant top school (johns hopkins or emory to have access to NIH/ CDC respectively, Harvard medical school/ UCSF if you want to do translational research, Cleveland Clinic/ Mayo Clinic if you want to pioneer novel surgical modalities). can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked MD school or a DO school, maybe, but it is extremely tough. can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked residency, maybe, but it gets to be highly unlikely.

I am not sure, why students who post about wanting to go to one of the premier institutions in medicine, get slammed around in SDN. There is nothing wrong in reaching for the moonshot if that is what you want to do in life. We NEED these "doctors" too, to prevent the stagnation of the field, and discover medical advances.

Very extremely well said, but keep in mind that the OP, and the ensuing thread, was about whether the endocrinologist in clinical practice with a Hopkins diploma would make more than one from UMD, not whether top schools provided opportunities to do other things that would be more difficult or impossible at lower ranked schools.

 

[Goro]

This is a statement which is being repeated several times in SDN. It depends on what your motivation to be a "doctor" is.

If your intention is to be one of the majority of practising physicians (>80% of physicians fit this description), being in private practice or being employed in a hospital system, most medical schools would do just fine.

If you want to be a translational physician, pioneering surgeon, or a lead academician, who is at the top of the field, changing the lives of patients across the globe you have never met, or advancing the health care policies of countless generations, then YES, there is nothing wrong in aspiring to be at a relevant top school (johns hopkins or emory to have access to NIH/ CDC respectively, Harvard medical school/ UCSF if you want to do translational research, Cleveland Clinic/ Mayo Clinic if you want to pioneer novel surgical modalities). can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked MD school or a DO school, maybe, but it is extremely tough. can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked residency, maybe, but it gets to be highly unlikely.

I am not sure, why students who post about wanting to go to one of the premier institutions in medicine, get slammed around in SDN. There is nothing wrong in reaching for the moonshot if that is what you want to do in life. We NEED these "doctors" too, to prevent the stagnation of the field, and discover medical advances.

There is nothing wrong with Aiming High.

But not all SDNers want to be leaders in medicine, and in fact not everybody can.

We come down on those who have the arrogance to think that they are Harvard/Stanford class candidates, and think that all other medical schools are actually beneath them. Either that or those who are too clueless to recognize that even though they have nice median stats, they're not going to be competitive for the really top schools.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This is a statement which is being repeated several times in SDN. It depends on what your motivation to be a "doctor" is.

If your intention is to be one of the majority of practising physicians (>80% of physicians fit this description), being in private practice or being employed in a hospital system, most medical schools would do just fine.

If you want to be a translational physician, pioneering surgeon, or a lead academician, who is at the top of the field, changing the lives of patients across the globe you have never met, or advancing the health care policies of countless generations, then YES, there is nothing wrong in aspiring to be at a relevant top school (johns hopkins or emory to have access to NIH/ CDC respectively, Harvard medical school/ UCSF if you want to do translational research, Cleveland Clinic/ Mayo Clinic if you want to pioneer novel surgical modalities). can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked MD school or a DO school, maybe, but it is extremely tough. can you achieve this by going to a lower ranked residency, maybe, but it gets to be highly unlikely.

I am not sure, why students who post about wanting to go to one of the premier institutions in medicine, get slammed around in SDN. There is nothing wrong in reaching for the moonshot if that is what you want to do in life. We NEED these "doctors" too, to prevent the stagnation of the field, and discover medical advances.

Well said, it’s sad to see even some adcoms saying that repeatedly and base recommendations on their own biased metrics like age and service to underserved.

 

[proudofmykids]

I've been in contact with a handful of surgeons performing a novel, highly-controversial, and dangerous operation in their field; one of them is a DO and the rest are MDs trained at Sinai/Hopkins/Harvard/HSS/other top institutions. I've explicitly asked those that have trained at these prestigious institutions if it made a difference in acquiring new patients/increasing RVUs for their practice and the answer was unanimously yes. I've also looked into survey data for patients interested in this operation and it seemed to support these biases in physician impressions.

I was a bit surprised at this since I am one of those people who doesn't really care at all about prestige and am still mostly using COA to make my decision for the school I'll be heading to this Fall, but this really opened my eyes because [one of] my goal(s) is to match the same specialty and offer the same procedure to my patients one day.

My realization is that for most people (probably 95%+ cases), it does not matter at all the prestige of the institution, outside of academia. This is just a very niche area of medicine I am thinking about. The patients who choose to undergo this procedure are also much more knowledgeable and self-motivated than the general population.

To those referring about previous renditions of this type of thread, I did my research and wasn't able to find anything that comes close to my OP (ranking vs salary), so this thread was definitely necessary. I also realize that this hypothetical I've drawn up -- matching this specialty and doing a fellowship with one of these surgeons -- is very much subject to change, but I always like to keep my rolodex occupied.

I believe many fields have this type of 'exception' and can be either procedural based or knowledge based diagnoses. For this reason, the hospital / department / group reputation attracts patients trumping training pedigree.

If senior physicians schedules are not available, and there are two newly graduation physicians that joint the group / Dept / practice, barring sex / ethnicity/age/ schedule availability etc, what is the next criteria that will be used? Pedigree?

 

[ChiDO]

The amount of mental pontification on trying to justify why a top MD program is better and pays more is astonishing.

I'm a DO and will be making 99%ile+++ in my surgical subspecialty because my group practice has a strong ancillary opportunitites and I'm becoming busier as I build my practice.

During my interviews with private practice groups across the country, not one time was my DO degree nor residency mentioned. 🤷

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

The amount of mental pontification on trying to justify why a top MD program is better and pays more is astonishing.

I'm a DO and will be making 99%ile+++ in my surgical subspecialty because my group practice has a strong ancillary opportunitites and I'm becoming busier as I build my practice.

During my interviews with private practice groups across the country, not one time was my DO degree nor residency mentioned. 🤷

I literally read the 1st page of this thread, felt the need to skip to the 3rd page, and I just want to say, “I love you for saying this”. That’s encouraging for us pre-meds who are down with either DO or MD schools, given the opportunity.

Besides, there’s so many other factors that could make you successful besides where you went to school. A large part of it is where you plan to practice or use what you’ve learned, your motivations for doing so & if you can convince people your experience is valuable. Where you are & where you’re looking (geography), rather than the name of your previous institution is the springboard. And I wouldn’t think to dismiss that some private practices would rather consider graduates who are local or regional that know what types of conditions/issues the patient populations they serve are likely to encounter. Plus, there’s a sense of comfortability in knowing where someone is coming from or has similar values, that I’m sure matters in that scenario.