Schools need to require more veterinary hours

[Armymutt25A]

---

Members do not see this ad.

This is going to be a rant - fair warning. We just had our second classmate quit because "I don't think I want to be a vet anymore". Seriously? Seems to me that you probably should have come to this decision prior to accepting a place in the school - and taking it away from someone else. I don't know what it is about school that would change your mind on a career, considering we aren't doing much that you will do in practice. All we are doing is laying the foundation knowledge. This happens in every career. One of my classmates from undergrad quit 3 weeks into vet school because it was hard. I was more than a little pissed - I was an alternate and didn't get in.

To those of you who are applying or thinking about applying, please remove all your emotions from the decision-making process with regard to a veterinary career. Do you really have the drive and energy to do what you have to do to make it? If not, don't take a slot from someone else, even it's just to test the waters. This is precisely why schools should require a lot more vet hours - so that you have plenty of time to know if you want this career or not.

 

[heylodeb]

This is going to be a rant - fair warning. We just had our second classmate quit because "I don't think I want to be a vet anymore". Seriously? Seems to me that you probably should have come to this decision prior to accepting a place in the school - and taking it away from someone else. I don't know what it is about school that would change your mind on a career, considering we aren't doing much that you will do in practice. All we are doing is laying the foundation knowledge. This happens in every career. One of my classmates from undergrad quit 3 weeks into vet school because it was hard. I was more than a little pissed - I was an alternate and didn't get in.

That really is too bad. I don't think anyone has left our class yet, but I will admit that I can be slightly oblivious when it comes to noticing these types of things.

I don't know ANYTHING about how NCSU chooses their applicants - do they weigh GPA higher than other schools or have a smaller experience hours requirement?

I agree with the need for applicants to get as MANY experience hours as possible. I only had 1200 or something like that but it is enough that I am able to think back and remember why I'm putting all this hard work in: I want to be back out in practice one day! If I only had the 200 that I racked up for my first application, I think I would be starting to wonder why I'm really here and if it is all really worth it...

 

[Wycolo]

I had quite an argument about this in another thread and don't want to bring that up again.

All I'll say ArmyMutt is Amen

 

[shortnsweet]

While I agree every applicant should have as many hours and experiences as possible to make sure this is really what they want to do, I can understand some people having to leave part way through. It happens in every program(from medicine, to law, to clinical psych to whatever). There are also people on this very forum who have decided part way through that it wasn't for them anymore. People change, and I don't think it is fair to fault them because they realize that.

Are you positive that was the *only* reason they left though? My guess is it was not an easy decision, and probably multi-factorial. The decision to attend vet school should never be taken lightly, but if going down another path is what will make them happy, then so be it.

 

[Raimes]

That really is too bad. I don't think anyone has left our class yet, but I will admit that I can be slightly oblivious when it comes to noticing these types of things.

I don't know ANYTHING about how NCSU chooses their applicants - do they weigh GPA higher than other schools or have a smaller experience hours requirement?

I agree with the need for applicants to get as MANY experience hours as possible. I only had 1200 or something like that but it is enough that I am able to think back and remember why I'm putting all this hard work in: I want to be back out in practice one day! If I only had the 200 that I racked up for my first application, I think I would be starting to wonder why I'm really here and if it is all really worth it...

NCSU seems to ONLY base their decision on GPA. For out of state they pick top 100 GPA applicants and choose from that selection.

 

[Trilt]

NCSU requires over 400 hours of experience or your application is tossed. I think this is one of the highest requirements out there? And in any case, their average accepted student has hours into the 1000s, with experience in several different areas of vet med. I don't think just requiring students to accumulate more and more vet hours is the answer to drop-outs.

However, just to echo shortnsweet - a lot of things could have happened in that person's life. If something personal had happened to me and I had to leave, I doubt I would tell anyone who asked what the problem was, and "I don't want to be a vet any more" is a nice, easy reason.

NCSU seems to ONLY base their decision on GPA. For out of state they pick top 100 GPA applicants and choose from that selection.

Maybe for out of state (although cutting to the top 100 for 18 spots even points out that it is not only based on GPA), but for in-state applicants I know people who got in over others with significantly higher GPAs. But we're talking a 4.0 vs. a 3.7, so they are in the high range to begin with.

 

[Pelagia]

This is going to be a rant - fair warning. We just had our second classmate quit because "I don't think I want to be a vet anymore". Seriously? Seems to me that you probably should have come to this decision prior to accepting a place in the school - and taking it away from someone else.

Armymutt, you know this classmate was a very close friend of mine, and I want to point out that her email did not reveal all of her reasons for deciding to leave. She had personal issues going on, and she felt they affected her ability to assess what she truly wanted out of her school experience, and her career in general. It's true that she did not have much clinical experience, and I do absolutely agree with you that lots of clinical experience will *generally* help people determine if this is the right career for them, but it's not the only determining factor. Leaving vet school has got to be an incredibly hard decision to make, and it does seem crazy to leave something you've spent your whole life working towards, especially when so many people want to get in, but we have to remember that it's a highly personal decision no one takes lightly. Reign in some of that frustration...there's more to her decision than she revealed. I'm happy for people who figure out what they really want out of life.

 

[Armymutt25A]

I understand that there are a variety of reasons, and I think she is a wonderful person. It's just another straw on the pile of those that I've seen. Like I said, the most massive disappointment is the friend from undergrad. Seems that too many people undertake this career too lightly. If there is any current issue that might possibly prevent you from completing the program, a more responsible course of action is to allow someone else to take your slot while you sort out your issues. I made a bunch of calculations and did a lot of course of action planning prior to applying. It's hard to reign in frustration over someone who throws away a resource that someone else might be able to put to good use, especially when that resource is as limited as a vet school slot.

 

[Bill59]

Most classes have a few students that drop out and I'm not sure dropping out correlates to lack of experience. Each situation is unique and no matter how prepared you think you are, you don't REALLY know until you start doing it. And feces happens.

The overall drop out rate for vet school is really low though, so the schools must be doing something right.

.

 

[pooter]

NCSU requires over 400 hours of experience or your application is tossed. I think this is one of the highest requirements out there?

I think Cornell requires 500. Or maybe it was just that no one got in without at least 500? Don't remember exactly.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I understand that there are a variety of reasons, and I think she is a wonderful person. It's just another straw on the pile of those that I've seen. Like I said, the most massive disappointment is the friend from undergrad. Seems that too many people undertake this career too lightly. If there is any current issue that might possibly prevent you from completing the program, a more responsible course of action is to allow someone else to take your slot while you sort out your issues. I made a bunch of calculations and did a lot of course of action planning prior to applying. It's hard to reign in frustration over someone who throws away a resource that someone else might be able to put to good use, especially when that resource is as limited as a vet school slot.

Not saying I know the answer to the question one way or another, but consider this...

Is the problem that the person didn't have enough experience in vet med? Meaning that more experience would lead to lower drop-out rates..

Or (as I would suspect) the person was unaware of how truly difficult it would be to survive vet school... in which case 1million hours wouldn't help.

I would say it is only when you get to vet school that you can really feel the sacrifices, and difficulties you will encounter that you can weigh whether you are willing to make those sacrifices.

Again, I would think that people need to understand what they are getting into EDUCATIONALLY and EMOTIONALLY more so than the profession, and be sure they are willing to put up with those issues.

If you feel that the number of hours is a measure of commitment to the profession, and that would mean people are less likely to throw in the towel, then I see your point. I don't think that is the case personally. I think that commitment is demonstrated in a lot of ways, and people with a lot of vet hours may have no clue of what they are getting themselves into.

Anyway... that is my point.

 

[Armymutt25A]

people with a lot of vet hours may have no clue of what they are getting themselves into.

How would you not know what you are getting into? Seems to me that witnessing first hand everything a vet does should tell you what you are getting into. Either that, or you aren't paying attention. If you mean they aren't grasping the school house side of matters, then they failed to ask simple questions. Much of my vet experience is what I termed "professional discussion" - sitting around and asking questions about everything, to include school related factors. I had a pretty good idea of what was expected when I walked through the door. It's probably why I'm neurotic about details and hate it when someone tells me that what I asked about isn't important.

 

[shortnsweet]

How would you not know what you are getting into? Seems to me that witnessing first hand everything a vet does should tell you what you are getting into. Either that, or you aren't paying attention. If you mean they aren't grasping the school house side of matters, then they failed to ask simple questions. Much of my vet experience is what I termed "professional discussion" - sitting around and asking questions about everything, to include school related factors. I had a pretty good idea of what was expected when I walked through the door. It's probably why I'm neurotic about details and hate it when someone tells me that what I asked about isn't important.

Disagree. Working as a tech, or volunteering hours is not the same as vet school or a career as a vet. I asked hundreds of questions, but I agree with SOV, you don't REALLY know until you dive in and start living it.

I'm rather confused as to why this bothers you so much Armymutt. Correct me if i'm wrong (sometimes forget who has done what on here) , but didn't you change career paths? How is that different? Aren't we all just looking for a bit of happiness in what we do?

 

[Maddiegirl]

I get how frustrating it is to watch someone throw away an opportunity, but I tend to agree with SOV too.

You can only plan and prepare up to a certain point. It's impossible to ever be fully prepared for a situation because there are always going to be variables.

This person may have different coping mechanisms than you do. I think it's unfair to judge people for dropping out when you haven't walked a mile in their shoes. Everybody has their own burdens to carry and their own journey to take. It's not for others to decide what's right and wrong for anybody else but themselves.

Yes, it is seems unfair that they took a spot away from somebody else that could have potentially gotten in if they hadn't, but that's just life. It's not always fair and no amount of rule changing or regulations will ever make it fair for everybody.

 

[LetItSnow]

To those of you who are applying or thinking about applying, please remove all your emotions from the decision-making process with regard to a veterinary career. Do you really have the drive and energy to do what you have to do to make it? If not, don't take a slot from someone else, even it's just to test the waters. This is precisely why schools should require a lot more vet hours - so that you have plenty of time to know if you want this career or not.

Your logic doesn't follow. First you assert that school isn't anything like what we're going to be doing, then you assert that people should get more vet experience before deciding to do school. What you're basically saying is: "Get more experience doing one thing so that you know whether you'll survive something related but unlike it." How does that follow?

The problem isn't (necessarily) not having enough vet experience. It's that people get into school and *vet school* isn't at all what they expected and suddenly the idea of four years of this stuff seems overwhelming. Or life just gets in their way.

You could require 10,000 hours of vet experience as a tech, shadowing, research, volunteering, or whatever. Some people will still drop out when they're confronted with the actual process of having to get the degree, either because the academic side is more than they can handle or because any of a number of life issues happen.

I thought you were more pragmatic than this particular rant. Not criticizing ... just ... surprised.

 

[bunnity]

How would you not know what you are getting into? Seems to me that witnessing first hand everything a vet does should tell you what you are getting into. Either that, or you aren't paying attention. If you mean they aren't grasping the school house side of matters, then they failed to ask simple questions. Much of my vet experience is what I termed "professional discussion" - sitting around and asking questions about everything, to include school related factors. I had a pretty good idea of what was expected when I walked through the door. It's probably why I'm neurotic about details and hate it when someone tells me that what I asked about isn't important.

There is a big difference between enjoying being a vet and enjoying being a vet student. I hate vet school but none of the things I hate about it are things I will have to deal with as a vet. It's not like when you're getting vet experience, you are shadowing vet students, so how would you know what it is like being one? Before you tell me I should have talked to vet students first, I was an SDN reader for years before vet school, and the transition was still awful for me. The students I met at interview/tour were super chipper and gave no warning of what this would be like for me (and maybe it isn't bad for them, I don't know). I had to think long and hard whether being a vet was worth being a vet student for four years (I've written a lot in the past about this).

Pretty much every 6 year old wants to be a vet. Most of them don't end up vets. So many people at some point realize that they want to change their path. There is nothing wrong with that. You yourself have changed your path, IIRC. I've read threads on VIN about people that are already vets deciding to leave the profession. It's not like it's a big moral decision to change your career or your school plans.

Sure, schools could require more experience. Let's talk about another school though. Penn tends to be into applicants with high gpa/gre and less strict about experience. Of the people that have dropped from MY class (or into my class), all were either medical or academic. Not because they didn't want to be vets anymore. So why would Penn requiring more experience help their attrition rate?

Or would it make more sense to say that we can't make a statement about 30+ vet schools based on the (partly unknown) motivations of one year student that dropped out?

 

[Emiloo4]

This person may have different coping mechanisms than you do. I think it's unfair to judge people for dropping out when you haven't walked a mile in their shoes. Everybody has their own burdens to carry and their own journey to take. It's not for others to decide what's right and wrong for anybody else but themselves.

.

I don't think Armymutt is really judding this person. I think he is just frustrated knowing there are people, just like him, and me, and everyone else, who would KILL for a spot, and it almost feels like our rejections are in vain. However, I do understand that things happen and sometimes life gets in the way. Personally, I know that any sacrifice is worth going to vet school, but that's only a decisions I can make. Adcoms do their best to chose the people they think will make it through, but if the person was great at selling themselves, the adcoms only have so much to go on. There are some people who barely have ANY hours and still make it through and are fantastic vets. I am also frustrated about this issue, but I'm not sure there is a way to prevent it.

 

[Maddiegirl]

I disagree. I think by coming onto the forum to rant about the person dropping out there had to be a fair amount of judgement there; however, it's irrelevant because the point my post wasn't to slam Armymutt for it. My point, which I failed to make, was that there is no guarantee that anyone of the people that would have killed for the drop out's available spot would have actually gotten in anyway. Life is unpredictable.

Like other's have said people grow and change their minds and sometimes it's just circumstances that get in the way. It happens. There's no amount of preparation for vet school that is going to completely eliminate drop outs.

 

[Armymutt25A]

Disagree. Working as a tech, or volunteering hours is not the same as vet school or a career as a vet. I asked hundreds of questions, but I agree with SOV, you don't REALLY know until you dive in and start living it.

I'm rather confused as to why this bothers you so much Armymutt. Correct me if i'm wrong (sometimes forget who has done what on here) , but didn't you change career paths? How is that different? Aren't we all just looking for a bit of happiness in what we do?

I don't believe I said anything about working as a tech. You can get a fairly accurate picture of a career as a vet by spending time with one and asking good questions. How do you think I have a pretty accurate picture of the career of an Army veterinarian? I did change careers, but I did not take a position that someone else wanted - in fact, there were 2 slots available from my OCS selection. No one was competing for my last job either. I did not however change what I wanted to do in life. I merely took a job in a different field and waited for the right time to re-apply. As it turns out, I'm actually saving someone's job by resigning.

Your logic doesn't follow. First you assert that school isn't anything like what we're going to be doing, then you assert that people should get more vet experience before deciding to do school. What you're basically saying is: "Get more experience doing one thing so that you know whether you'll survive something related but unlike it." How does that follow?

The problem isn't (necessarily) not having enough vet experience. It's that people get into school and *vet school* isn't at all what they expected and suddenly the idea of four years of this stuff seems overwhelming. Or life just gets in their way.

You could require 10,000 hours of vet experience as a tech, shadowing, research, volunteering, or whatever. Some people will still drop out when they're confronted with the actual process of having to get the degree, either because the academic side is more than they can handle or because any of a number of life issues happen.

I thought you were more pragmatic than this particular rant. Not criticizing ... just ... surprised.

When someone drops because "I don't want to be a vet", that's offensive. If you try and fail, I have no issues with it. What I'm saying is that you should know that you want to be a vet before applying, not knowing that you might want to be a vet - understand the difference? If you truly want something, you won't let life get in the way, unless it explicitly involves you - i.e. illness or injury. I made it clear to my wife that just as I gave her space so she can complete her school, I will expect the same. They will have to kick me out of school if I'm to leave before completing the program. My position on experience is meant to remove the excuse. It is a modest proposal.

 

[Armymutt25A]

I disagree. I think by coming onto the forum to rant about the person dropping out there had to be a fair amount of judgement there; however, it's irrelevant because the point my post wasn't to slam Armymutt for it. My point, which I failed to make, was that there is no guarantee that anyone of the people that would have killed for the drop out's available spot would have actually gotten in anyway. Life is unpredictable.

Like other's have said people grow and change their minds and sometimes it's just circumstances that get in the way. It happens. There's no amount of preparation for vet school that is going to completely eliminate drop outs.

You're wrong. My remarks are about everyone who just decides school isn't for them. It's very inconsiderate to take a slot when you haven't fully committed yourself.

 

[LetItSnow]

When someone drops because "I don't want to be a vet", that's offensive. If you try and fail, I have no issues with it. What I'm saying is that you should know that you want to be a vet before applying, not knowing that you might want to be a vet - understand the difference?

Yes, I understand the difference. I can't imagine why it would be personally offensive to you. Is that person's withdrawal personally impacting to you? Personally directed at you? I can see you being frustrated by it, but offended? That's ... making something personal that clearly has nothing to do with you.

Anyway, I still disagree. In multiple ways.

First, I don't have any problem with something "trying" something out. We don't all have the same level of certainty about every aspect of life that you appear to have. Some of us need to try things before we know how well it fits us. It's the way we're wired.

Second, you're making an assumption that someone leaving school is giving you the full story when they say "I don't want to be a vet anymore." Perhaps this person did poorly academically and was embarrassed and didn't want to admit it. Perhaps they had other life issues that were highly personal that they didn't want to share. Perhaps both of those things. Perhaps all of that AND they decided the occupation wasn't for them. You don't know.

 

[Wubbles]

I understand the frustration of an empty spot that could have been for somebody else who would make it the whole 4 years but realistically, this is going to happen and I don't think more experience would have stopped it.
Was this person the same class year as you? If so, how would more experience prepared her for this year of rigorous material? Since most of your time is spent in a class, I'm not sure more vet experience would make any difference.
I'm sure it wasn't a spontaneous decision and it wasn't one taken lightly - we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the person. Yeah it sucks, but it happens and schools know this. No matter what requirements a program has, there are going to people who realize it isn't for them. Better now than somebody being a miserable vet.

 

[Armymutt25A]

Yes, I understand the difference. I can't imagine why it would be personally offensive to you. Is that person's withdrawal personally impacting to you? Personally directed at you? I can see you being frustrated by it, but offended? That's ... making something personal that clearly has nothing to do with you.

Anyway, I still disagree. In multiple ways.

First, I don't have any problem with something "trying" something out. We don't all have the same level of certainty about every aspect of life that you appear to have. Some of us need to try things before we know how well it fits us. It's the way we're wired.

Second, you're making an assumption that someone leaving school is giving you the full story when they say "I don't want to be a vet anymore." Perhaps this person did poorly academically and was embarrassed and didn't want to admit it. Perhaps they had other life issues that were highly personal that they didn't want to share. Perhaps both of those things. Perhaps all of that AND they decided the occupation wasn't for them. You don't know.

It's offensive because I've been on the alternate list, which means I didn't have the opportunity that someone who drops out threw away.

I'm making an assumption based on a statement from the person, which is the basis for most human interactions. It would be better not to offer an excuse. By the time you apply for such a competitive program, you probably should know that the job is for you. If you were starving and someone threw away $40K worth of food because they decided they didn't like that they would have to cook it, wouldn't you be offended? Even if you were satiated and someone did the same, would it not offend you? This is my social justice sticking point.

 

[Lissarae06]

I don't believe I said anything about working as a tech. You can get a fairly accurate picture of a career as a vet by spending time with one and asking good questions. How do you think I have a pretty accurate picture of the career of an Army veterinarian? I did change careers, but I did not take a position that someone else wanted - in fact, there were 2 slots available from my OCS selection. No one was competing for my last job either. I did not however change what I wanted to do in life. I merely took a job in a different field and waited for the right time to re-apply. As it turns out, I'm actually saving someone's job by resigning.

I agree you can get a fairly accurate picture of a vet's career, but not vet school. I have had vets tell me that vet school was the best time of their life, and others have told me that it sucks out your soul and doesn't give it back. Talking to someone about their vet school experience may give you an idea about what school is like, but you won't really know until you experience it yourself because everyone experiences life differently. While I applaud you and your wife for handling your schooling the way you are, every marriage is different. A different couple might not be able to handle it the way you guys do. For me personally, if it came down to it, I would choose my husband over vet school every time. I don't think it would ever come to that but that's the way it is for us.

 

[shortnsweet]

I don't believe I said anything about working as a tech. You can get a fairly accurate picture of a career as a vet by spending time with one and asking good questions. How do you think I have a pretty accurate picture of the career of an Army veterinarian? I did change careers, but I did not take a position that someone else wanted - in fact, there were 2 slots available from my OCS selection. No one was competing for my last job either. I did not however change what I wanted to do in life. I merely took a job in a different field and waited for the right time to re-apply. As it turns out, I'm actually saving someone's job by resigning.

I merely said "tech" because this thread was about getting veterinary experience hours...no? Isn't that how a lot of pre-vets get those hours? By working in clinics for years as a tech/pet nurse/whatever the term is nowadays alongside vets?

Maybe I am viewing this differently than you because I go to school in the UK, with people of all ages, and we typically lose 2-3 a year, and more drop back to the class below. It's normal, and it's a personal choice, and everyone has different reasons. I'm not gonna hold it against anyone if they decide during school rather than halfway through the career it's just not working. Technically they are "saving someone's job by resigning" as you put it.

And Armymutt, maybe you should actually talk to this girl about her decision instead of posting about her on a public forum. I think the general point to many of the posts on this thread are that it feels like you aren't considering life getting in the way for some people. If I ever had to leave school, I would be sad one of my classmates thought I just quit for no reason, and ranted about it to others rather than asking me why. I get what you meant about people not going into this 100% and "taking" other people's spots, and i've already agreed experience is important, but give this girl a break.

 

[Maddiegirl]

You're wrong. My remarks are about everyone who just decides school isn't for them. It's very inconsiderate to take a slot when you haven't fully committed yourself.

Just because a person has "fully committed" themselves doesn't mean that their circumstances will never change in a way that causes them to make the decision to drop out.

Just sayin'

 

[LetItSnow]

This is my social justice sticking point.

Fair enough. I still believe you are making something personal that isn't, and I'm willing to allow that people will change their minds and that's ok in my world view, because I understand that people change as things go on. But I get that you see it differently.

 

[Armymutt25A]

And Armymutt, maybe you should actually talk to this girl about her decision instead of posting about her on a public forum. I think the general point to many of the posts on this thread are that it feels like you aren't considering life getting in the way for some people. If I ever had to leave school, I would be sad one of my classmates thought I just quit for no reason, and ranted about it to others rather than asking me why. I get what you meant about people not going into this 100% and "taking" other people's spots, and i've already agreed experience is important, but give this girl a break.

You seem to miss that this isn't just about 1 person. She's (I didn't even mention gender initially) just the most recent person I'm aware of. I can count at least 4 that I know of personally.

For the person above, my wife would chose my education over her happiness, just as I did for her. We both realize that school is temporary.

 

[vetme]

I have to agree partially with armymutt and partially with SOV. I was a little mad at someone in my class( in my lab group even) that basically gave up after the first exam of the first semester. She kept saying, "Man this is nothing like undergrad!" She would never come in and study the slides for micro or the cadaver for gross. During lab she would not participate. She just flat gave up because it wasn't like undergrad. Everytime she said that(and it was almost everyday) I wanted to yell at her, "Well, DUH it is a DOCTORATE program!" But I didn't. The rest of our group tried very hard to try to help her and get her involved, but in the end it was her responsbility to learn the material. So, I am a little ticked off that she took a slot from someone who would have WORKED their butt off to succeed, instead of moping around that the curriculum wasn't like undergrad😡 I don't think that lack of veterinary experience had anything to do with her situation, She had plenty of that working as a tech. She just did not have the drive for this demanding program.

 

[shortnsweet]

You seem to miss that this isn't just about 1 person. She's (I didn't even mention gender initially) just the most recent person I'm aware of. I can count at least 4 that I know of personally.

For the person above, my wife would chose my education over her happiness, just as I did for her. We both realize that school is temporary.

Eh...it's vet school in 2012 in the states-- I assumed gender was female.

 

[squirrelsrule]

I think the main reason that people drop vet school is because they can't handle it academically. Obviously sometimes people have health issues, family issues, etc. but that isn't something that is known before deciding. The ones that are getting to you are the ones that start not knowing what they're getting into.

So, I think more vet experience is only gonna help the situation a little. You'd know more of what you're working towards, but would that help you get through it? Maybe, maybe not.

I think that admissions is pretty good now, if anything higher academic standards might help. I have NOT started vet school, but will be starting in August 😀 and I will complete vet school! I think my academic preparation has readied me for the rigors of vet school. In undergrad I completed 20-23 semester hours per semester and had a 3.99 GPA. In addition I volunteered at a wildlife center. I think it that was more the norm of vet school students, there would be even less drop out. However, I do NOT think that SHOULD be the standard because I think we all agree that things happen, people do stupid things as freshman and mess up their GPA forever, or just struggle in school in general, but will still be awesome vets. So, I think that both academics and experience are important and finding that balance isn't easy and the low dropout rate I think shows that vet schools do a pretty good job of deciding who will make it. There's always gonna be those few people that drop out.

 

[goldnretrivrgrl]

Things change. I don't think that's any reason to get offended. Vet school is not what I thought it would be and if I didn't have the support system that I do have, I might have left too before things had a chance to get better. It's a shame that the spot couldn't go to someone who was guaranteed to make it through the program but that's life.

 

[Minnerbelle]

This thread makes me really sad. I'm sure anyone who drops out of vet school has had to have gone through a ton of heartache to come to that decision. I doubt the decision is ever made lightly. I really don't see the need to be judgmental about their choice.

I don't think it's just about having enough experience to know this is what you want to do as a career. We're talking in many cases about people in their early twenties. How are they to know for sure how they want to live their life for the rest of eternity. I don't think anyone of any age can know for sure, and esp so at an age where most people are making a transition from being sheltered by parents and colleges and whatnot, to becoming an autonomous adult with many huge choices to make. For heaven's sake, at 22 I was sure I wanted to spend the rest of my life with the guy I'd been dating for over 6 years. Once you move into a different stage of your life, a lot of things can change. And entering vet school IS entering a different stage of your life regardless of what age you are. Perspectives change and reality changes no matter how sure you were of it just a year ago.

You also have to remember that vet school/vet career doesn't JUST affect the person going to school. It affects everyone around them. A future vet student can try as hard as they might to prepare those around them, but you can't predict how others will respond once reality hits. I know many many people who had to weigh the importance of relationships (family, friends SO) to vet school. In many cases the relationships suffer. In some cases, vet school gets axed. I don't think it's up to anyone else to say what is more important to someone's life. Vet school or a career in vet med isn't always the MOST important thing for someone, and I think that's something we should all respect. I don't think it's realistic to ask everyone to not apply unless vet med was their top top top priority in life. If that were true, I think we'd have a pretty sad profession IMO.

 

[deleted387118]

I'm probably going to get hate mail for this but I think it needs to be said by someone.

I know nothing of this person or their specifics but this is how I look at every person that drops out.

Look on the bright side of things: That means:
One less person you will be competing against for jobs (in a very saturated market right now)
One less person that will take up clinicians time/wet lab time so that you can get a better experience
One less person who wasn't cut out for the career and who may not have made the best veterinarian.
One person who was brave enough to walk away from something that they may have always wanted
Depending on why the drop out, one person who was brave enough to say this wasn't for them, that the debt wasn't worth it, or perhaps didn't have the maturity or drive to handle it. Before they got too deep in.

Its human nature to want everyone to succeed at whatever they think they want to do but life isn't that way. Not everyone is cut out for this. At least they are the ones brave enough to step out sooner rather than after 5 or 10 or 15 years into their career. Or at least they are doing what's right for them and taking time to deal with issues in their life. If I've learned anything in vet school its that life is not just being a veterinarian.

 

[bunnity]

I'm probably going to get hate mail for this but I think it needs to be said by someone.

I know nothing of this person or their specifics but this is how I look at every person that drops out.

Look on the bright side of things: That means:
One less person you will be competing against for jobs (in a very saturated market right now)
One less person that will take up clinicians time/wet lab time so that you can get a better experience
One less person who wasn't cut out for the career and who may not have made the best veterinarian.
One person who was brave enough to walk away from something that they may have always wanted
Depending on why the drop out, one person who was brave enough to say this wasn't for them, that the debt wasn't worth it, or perhaps didn't have the maturity or drive to handle it. Before they got too deep in.

Its human nature to want everyone to succeed at whatever they think they want to do but life isn't that way. Not everyone is cut out for this. At least they are the ones brave enough to step out sooner rather than after 5 or 10 or 15 years into their career. Or at least they are doing what's right for them and taking time to deal with issues in their life. If I've learned anything in vet school its that life is not just being a veterinarian.

excellent post - especially the last sentence.

 

[Bisbee]

People and life are not perfect. We can only do as well as we know at the time. No one has set out to take away a spot to hurt someone else. This student probably had every good intention of becoming a vet and was as thrilled (and scared) to get into vet school as anyone else. We also have no idea how many hours of experience she had compared to the average student. Intention is everything. That is why the law is set up in such a way that if you accidentally harm someone, you are not punished in the same way as if it was premeditated.

 

[LetItSnow]

This thread makes me really sad.

👍

But it also makes me grateful to the people around me - friends and family (and the vet school that accepted me, I 'spose!) - who have been incredibly forgiving of some less-than-stellar life choices I've made in the past when they instead could have chosen to be offended at my negative impact to their lives.

 

[jalyndani]

I think I understand what Armymutt is trying to say....

It's one thing to drop out for academic reasons, personal injury, family catastrophes, marital problems, life changes, etc. I can fully comprehend how any of these situations can cause someone to re-evaluate their decision to be in such a rigorous, demanding program, regardless of any prior experience.

It's entirely another matter to drop out with the reasoning of "I didn't realize this is what vet medicine was like" or saying "I don't WANT to be a vet anymore". I wholeheartedly believe that in these situations, more experience in the field would have been more beneficial and definitely more enlightening. And by experience, I mean actually witnessing what a veterinarian in your desired field (i.e. small, large, zoo, mixed, research, etc.) experiences day in and day out, 365 days a year. A few hours shadowing at one clinic for a few random days doesn't give you the slightest idea of what that vet does for a living. Do you see the tears, the hair-pulling, the frustration, the self-doubt? Do you know about the anger with clients that take advantage of your good heart and desire to truly help an animal? Are you aware of the type of clientele you could have and the wide variety of mentalities they have regarding pet care? Do you know how to cope with a patient (and their owner) that you've poured all your knowledge and energy into that dies anyway? Are you prepared to tell a client, "I honestly don't know why" ?

No, none of that is taught in vet school. Vet school is, as someone stated above, simply laying the foundation knowledge for your career as a vet. But I think some veterinarians make their job look really fun and awesome and easy to the kiddos that come shadow with stars in their eyes. There's not just air between those vets' ears; that information had to be taught- and learned- at some point. Yeah, every kid on the planet who's ever owned a puppy thinks they want to be a vet. But I know from my many many hours of working side by side with my boss for the past four years that veterinary medicine is hard. You have to know, basically, a lot information about a lot of different animals (especially if you're a mixed practice vet). But I also know that I can't imagine doing anything else for the rest of my life. I know what I'm about to get myself into, and perhaps if other potential vet students spent more time actually interacting with veterinarians, they wouldn't be so blind-sided when they're suddenly immersed in this new way of life.

Obviously there are individuals on this board who have coped just fine with the rigors of vet school without a multitude of experience hours. That's awesome and I wish you all the best. This is just a blanket statement/observation in an effort to (hopefully) clarify Armymutt's position.

Carry on.

 

[kakurubird]

One person who was brave enough to walk away from something that they may have always wanted
Depending on why the drop out, one person who was brave enough to say this wasn't for them, that the debt wasn't worth it, or perhaps didn't have the maturity or drive to handle it. Before they got too deep in.

I really love that you brought this up. Only knowing what is posted here (which is obviously far from everything for this girl's situation), my first thought was that "I don't want to be a vet anymore" was then followed, at least in her mind and for everyone else who has had to make such a decision, by x, y, and z reasons that include sacrifices and other life situations that may have only recently come up or complicated matters. But the bravery to send an email to the class or to tell many people that you are choosing a different route to life is something I really applaud because I know that, were I in a situation where I would be unable to complete school, I would be very chicken about going out there and admitting what was going to happen. I, at least, would need to be completely sure of my decision and confident that this was what was best for me and those in my life--and I imagine that 99% of those who do drop out spend many, many nights agonizing over such a decision.

That said, I know that working as a tech and talking with the vets I work with certainly won't prepare me all the way and I'm completely ready to feel fully blind-sided by both vet school and actually working as a vet. I think it's one thing to see vets working and talk to them about it, but (and again, at least for me, though I'm sure it's not just me), actually doing something myself is completely different from seeing it/hearing about it. Every vet in the world could tell me that seeing their first client in private practice was terrifying and very nerve-wracking but that won't keep me from feeling like that, no matter how prepared I am for it, when I'm in that situation.

 

[vetme]

I think I understand what Armymutt is trying to say....

It's one thing to drop out for academic reasons, personal injury, family catastrophes, marital problems, life changes, etc. I can fully comprehend how any of these situations can cause someone to re-evaluate their decision to be in such a rigorous, demanding program, regardless of any prior experience.

It's entirely another matter to drop out with the reasoning of "I didn't realize this is what vet medicine was like" or saying "I don't WANT to be a vet anymore". I wholeheartedly believe that in these situations, more experience in the field would have been more beneficial and definitely more enlightening. And by experience, I mean actually witnessing what a veterinarian in your desired field (i.e. small, large, zoo, mixed, research, etc.) experiences day in and day out, 365 days a year. A few hours shadowing at one clinic for a few random days doesn't give you the slightest idea of what that vet does for a living. Do you see the tears, the hair-pulling, the frustration, the self-doubt? Do you know about the anger with clients that take advantage of your good heart and desire to truly help an animal? Are you aware of the type of clientele you could have and the wide variety of mentalities they have regarding pet care? Do you know how to cope with a patient (and their owner) that you've poured all your knowledge and energy into that dies anyway? Are you prepared to tell a client, "I honestly don't know why" ?

No, none of that is taught in vet school. Vet school is, as someone stated above, simply laying the foundation knowledge for your career as a vet. But I think some veterinarians make their job look really fun and awesome and easy to the kiddos that come shadow with stars in their eyes. There's not just air between those vets' ears; that information had to be taught- and learned- at some point. Yeah, every kid on the planet who's ever owned a puppy thinks they want to be a vet. But I know from my many many hours of working side by side with my boss for the past four years that veterinary medicine is hard. You have to know, basically, a lot information about a lot of different animals (especially if you're a mixed practice vet). But I also know that I can't imagine doing anything else for the rest of my life. I know what I'm about to get myself into, and perhaps if other potential vet students spent more time actually interacting with veterinarians, they wouldn't be so blind-sided when they're suddenly immersed in this new way of life.

Obviously there are individuals on this board who have coped just fine with the rigors of vet school without a multitude of experience hours. That's awesome and I wish you all the best. This is just a blanket statement/observation in an effort to (hopefully) clarify Armymutt's position.

Carry on.

Very nice and well written I bet your personal statement rocked everyones socks off. BUT I think if one just gives up because it is too hard, they did not deserve the spot in the first place. It may be better that they are now gone, but they did take a chance away from someone. And I also understand where armymutt is coming from because I was also on a waiting list and know the extra anxiety of wondering if someone will change their minds before starting!

 

[breenie]

Most of the people who have left my class because they have been FAILED out, not because they left. NONE of those people wanted to go.

So vet school wasn't for them. I'm not about to get butthurt about it and trash them on the internet because I'm still bitter from a rejection from years ago.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It's entirely another matter to drop out with the reasoning of "I didn't realize this is what vet medicine was like" or saying "I don't WANT to be a vet anymore". I wholeheartedly believe that in these situations, more experience in the field would have been more beneficial and definitely more enlightening. And by experience, I mean actually witnessing what a veterinarian in your desired field (i.e. small, large, zoo, mixed, research, etc.) experiences day in and day out, 365 days a year. A few hours shadowing at one clinic for a few random days doesn't give you the slightest idea of what that vet does for a living. Do you see the tears, the hair-pulling, the frustration, the self-doubt? Do you know about the anger with clients that take advantage of your good heart and desire to truly help an animal? Are you aware of the type of clientele you could have and the wide variety of mentalities they have regarding pet care? Do you know how to cope with a patient (and their owner) that you've poured all your knowledge and energy into that dies anyway? Are you prepared to tell a client, "I honestly don't know why" ?

I dunno what kind of image you have conjuring up in your head, but I highly doubt that the reason why people drop out is simply because they realized the things you brought up above. It's not like any part of first year would really make you realize that in most vet schools anyway. I don't doubt that there are people who go in and not realizethose things, and end up unhappy further in their careers... but I have a very hard time believing that is why a significant portion of first-year drop outs leave. In fact, I've never heard of a student leaving for that reason. I don't disagree at all that people need to have enough experience to have a realistic understanding of the profession, but I don't think this has much to do with why students drop out.

At least with the few people I've personally known who've left or contemplated leaving, it was more the mentality of "you know what, I don't need this to be happy with my life. it's not worth everything else I'm sacrificing," which gets expressed as "this is not what I WANT anymore." And really, there was no way for them to have known how profound these sacrifices were going to be before taking the plunge. It had nothing to do with all of the sudden having an epiphany about how hard a vet's job is.

 

[BubbleheadVet]

I just want to chime in here and express something...I don't have a ton of hours...roughly 300-400 vet hours and another 100 volunteering and I plan to apply next cycle...Yet I am fully aware of what it means to sacrifice in the name of achieving your goals...I was deployed several times with the Navy and without my family during those periods...I understood the sacrifice I was making and put my nose to the grindstone and did it...and occassionally enjoyed it but I'm not sure if anyone can ever really enjoy not seeing civilization or sunlight for months on end...I also grew up in a household where my father was in anesthesia school and doing clinical rotations for 3 1/2 years while myseld, my brother, and my mom were living over 100 miles away...I think the problem here isn't really "having enough hours"...It's just about whether or not you are willing to make sacrifices, plain and simple...

 

[bunnity]

I dunno what kind of image you have conjuring up in your head, but I highly doubt that the reason why people drop out is simply because they realized the things you brought up above. It's not like any part of first year would really make you realize that in most vet schools anyway. I don't doubt that there are people who go in and not realizethose things, and end up unhappy further in their careers... but I have a very hard time believing that is why a significant portion of first-year drop outs leave. In fact, I've never heard of a student leaving for that reason. I don't disagree at all that people need to have enough experience to have a realistic understanding of the profession, but I don't think this has much to do with why students drop out.

At least with the few people I've personally known who've left or contemplated leaving, it was more the mentality of "you know what, I don't need this to be happy with my life. it's not worth everything else I'm sacrificing," which gets expressed as "this is not what I WANT anymore." And really, there was no way for them to have known how profound these sacrifices were going to be before taking the plunge. It had nothing to do with all of the sudden having an epiphany about how hard a vet's job is.

Exactly.
I had zero contact with clients first year of vet school. I had zero contact with the vet hospital, other than through my perpetually sick dog. First year vet school has nothing to do with the daily life of being a vet.

 

[skittles12]

At least with the few people I've personally known who've left or contemplated leaving, it was more the mentality of "you know what, I don't need this to be happy with my life. it's not worth everything else I'm sacrificing," which gets expressed as "this is not what I WANT anymore." And really, there was no way for them to have known how profound these sacrifices were going to be before taking the plunge. It had nothing to do with all of the sudden having an epiphany about how hard a vet's job is.

I completely agree with this. I don't think that extra veterinary experience really prepares you for vet school itself. Sure, you realize it's going to be a challenge and you'll have to give up some things, but I don't think you really understand the extent of that until you are in it. Furthermore, I fully believe that one's priorities can change while in vet school--mine certainly have.You can be prepared to make sacrifices, but suppose something happens that you didn't plan for? What if it was highly personal--would you want to explain your feelings to everyone? If someone realizes that they aren't happy with what they are doing and with the sacrifices they are making, then it doesn't offend me at all if they change their plans. In my opinion, better to do it now than to waste more time.

I had a really tough time dealing with the sacrifices for vet school this past semester. If the pressure of that had ended up being too much, I really hope that my classmates wouldn't judge me for it. Just because someone says, "I don't want to do this anymore" doesn't mean that there aren't other factors affecting their decision.

 

[lostbunny]

nvm..

 

[StartingoverVet]

...I think the problem here isn't really "having enough hours"...It's just about whether or not you are willing to make sacrifices, plain and simple...

I think you nailed it!

I believe ultimately armymutt is ticked off because people are entering vet school without willing to ultimately make the sacrifices required, sacrifices that armymutt himself was well aware of, and is clearly making.

The problem is requiring more hours is not going to get people to ask the questions that armymutt clearly did. This is not about learning about the profession (which vet hours are supposed to accomplish), but learning about the difficulty of actually getting through school.

If everyone had to spend a month in vet school before attending vet school, PERHAPS they would get a better idea of what they were getting into, or if they were in the military they would learn about the concept of sacrifice and be mature about what they were getting into. But let's be honest, these are not serious proposals.

Hey, I asked the vets I shadowed with for 3 years plenty of questions about vet school, and honestly they didn't nearly prepare me for the difficulty I encountered. And I question the sacrifices required, and still am not sure they are worth it. Not everyone has the same value system, and you can only make those decisions when you are fully informed, and that just doesn't happen until you experience it.

 

[jradjsb]

I agree with SOV that shadowing/volunteering/working as a tech doesn't mean that you know what your going into. Nor does asking a lot of questions, even if they are the right ones. I have 2 years documented hours at 1 clinic that didn't let me do anything but watch. I asked questions, but still didn't know anything. I have 3 more years experience at a clinic that actually put me to work. They taught me sutures and how to neuter a cat, and really let be be involved hands on in everything. Prior to this I worked at an equine breeding farm where I personally collected semen, inseminated mares, administered meds. I have a lot of experience, but still if I sit down and try to have conversation about veterinary med. with one of the vets I quickly realize that I don't know s***. Everyone should try it and you will quickly realize the same and this should tell you how much there is to learn in 4 years. So I don't know that experience is the answer to the droppout issue. Also one tidbit that a new vet told me is that one semester at vet school is like an entire year of undergrad crammed into 4 months.

 

[jtom]

I think it is how much drive and determination you have as an individual that will determine whether you succeed in vet school. While I do think applicants should have 500 or more hours in the field just to see what everyday vet life is like, I will not say it prepares you for vet school. Having lots of experience will makes some things easier for you, like already being decent at pulling blood/placing catheter or how to deal with agressive animals etc but obviously working as a tech will not prepare you for studying all the time with little sleep. The only thing I am not in favor of is schools admitting applicants with very few hours (less than 200) becasue their academics are so good.

 

[flyhi]

I think you nailed it!

Drop out in da house 😀

👍 SOV and Minnerbelle has also eloquently stated a lot of what I believe to be true.

I can speak from experience that each student's reason(s) for dropping is not only completely personal and something that no one other than that person can fully relate to, because guess what...it's their completely unique life, but each person's reason is different even though it may sound similar to someone else's.

Not wanting to deal with the 'sacrifice' is the best summation, in my opinion, because it covers those who simply cannot handle the academics, have personal relationship issues, medical issues, family matters, financial, realize it is different than being a vet-tech, etc. The list goes on and on and on. Honestly, it shouldn't really matter the reason. Everyone is on their own journey and have epiphanies at different times. For some of us, that occurs after we have gone through the painstaking process of applying, getting accepted, re-arranging our lives and matriculating into vet school.

Many of you know my story - I left purely for financial reasons. I did not believe in the investment anymore, given MY circumstances. Many would argue that I knew this going into it, had I done my research. But, you see, I DID plenty of research and even deferred a year because I got cold feet. I spoke with current vets and I talked extensively with my two mentors (one who is a Wharton grad, former employer, Finance guy and immensely successful and the other an extremely successful entrepreneur) and both encouraged me to go for it. When you are emotionally invested in something that may not be the best financial (or other) decision, it's a risk just like many things in life. Taking risks is a part of life and sometimes they pay off hundredfold and other times it becomes an epic fail. For me, actually being in the thick of things at vet school and worrying even more about the outcome of my chosen profession because of the immersion, and physically writing large checks to vet school (not just looking at my budget laid out on a spreadsheet), made it all click. I realized that what I once *thought* I was willing to sacrifice, I was not. I had my epiphany while in vet school and frankly, am thankful it happened when it did. I will never have to live with 'what if' because I KNOW I made the right decision.

Dropping out is NOT an easy decision and one that comes with many consequences. So many people support you along the way and it is hard letting them down, but we are the only ones truly responsible for our own decisions. I personally don't feel like I 'took'' someone else's spot. I worked hard and I earned that spot. It was mine to do with what I wanted. I can assure you that there have been student's left on a waitlist one year, accepted the next and ended up dropping out. So, please don't be so judgemental...this is all part of life and if anything, those that drop out need your support and encouragement now more than ever.

Nuff said.