Schools where it's easier to get a good GPA?

[EntireTree]

As the title says. I was previously planning on applying to BU, but upon hearing the horror stories of grade deflation there, I decided not to go. I'd rather work to get a good GPA in a higher ranking school than put in extra effort to get a good GPA in a lower ranking school.

I'm fully aware of the difficulties of med programs and do plan on putting in the effort, but it's inevitable that the difficulty of premed programs differ slightly between schools. You can accuse me of trying to be lazy, however, my biggest fear is to regret going into a school that's difficult compared to the easier one down the street.

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[cantankerous]

lmao the moral justice "earn what you learn" people will jump down your throat

I would say trying a small private liberal arts college? Not one that's really well known for academic rigor, obviously. Otherwise, I would choose a state school and save money. If you have good enough stats, there's possibility for a free ride.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Brown is your best bet - if you can get in

Schools notorious for grade deflation are MIT, Princeton, Cornell, Berkeley, UCLA, Hopkins, WashU, Chicago. Avoid those and you'll be fine. Or go to one of them, do well, and own the world. Up to you.

 

[Flashfan]

Sadly, many LACs will make you work for your grades as well. The most important factor may be your major.

 

[GrapesofRath]

As the title says. I was previously planning on applying to BU, but upon hearing the horror stories of grade deflation there, I decided not to go. I'd rather work to get a good GPA in a higher ranking school than put in extra effort to get a good GPA in a lower ranking school.

I'm fully aware of the difficulties of med programs and do plan on putting in the effort, but it's inevitable that the difficulty of premed programs differ slightly between schools. You can accuse me of trying to be lazy, however, my biggest fear is to regret going into a school that's difficult compared to the easier one down the street.

Honestly the best way to alleviate this fear is to just go ahead and go to that easiest school you can find and not have to worry if there are significantly easier ones out there. Not saying that's the best approach or what you should do by any means, but if your goal is to truly avoid a school where you'll constantly be thinking there has to be an easier one, that means going to one of the least competitive ones you can find. And by these types of schools, we're not talking about Harvard or Brown or some school with a 2200+ SAT average and half the class being a valedictorian. No, think more State U type schools with sub 1700 SAT averages. That's a type of school with a type of environment where you can do the best to alleviate what you described as your biggest fear. Because the thing is if you are always going to be worried about their being an easier school down the street, these private schools with big average stats just aren't going to fill what you seek. Because guess what, even those schools everybody on here loves to whine about having grade inflation like Harvard, the median for those grades in pre-reqs will still be B's. And you'll be up against truly the absolute best of the best for those grades; even beating out half the class to get that B will seem like a real accomplishment.

 

[goldy490]

While there are many LACs that are challenging, it is a much more supportive atmosphere to be challenged in. A grade deflated pre-med sweatshop full of research professors and hypergunners is a miserable way to spend four years. Also, many small LACs make it very easy to build up ECs and get involved on campus.

 

[md-2020]

Grade inflation:

1. Brown
2. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. Duke

Good luck.

 

[625233]

Grade inflation:

1. Brown
2. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. Duke

Good luck.

Stanford, lol?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Grade inflation:

1. Brown
2. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. Duke

Good luck.

Duke?

 

[md-2020]

Stanford, lol?

http://www.gradeinflation.com/Stanford.html
10 years ago, the average GPA at Stanford was a 3.55. For context, that's still considered inflationary today. I've heard from friends that it's in the 3.65-3.7 range nowadays

Duke?

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2015/01/combating-grade-inflation-problem

Yes, Duke also. 3.44 in 2007 (nowadays considered average/slightly inflated), probably 3.55-3.6 in '15.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Follow these steps:

1. Go to any school.
2. Pick the easiest major.
3. Take the easiest professors in that major.
4. Profit.



(Of course, you will still have to take hard science classes, but if you are solely concerned about having the highest GPA possible, this is a good formula to follow.)

 

[WedgeDawg]

http://www.gradeinflation.com/Stanford.html
10 years ago, the average GPA at Stanford was a 3.55. For context, that's still considered inflationary today. I've heard from friends that's it's in the 3.65-3.7 range nowadays


http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2015/01/combating-grade-inflation-problem

Yes, Duke also. 3.44 in 2007 (nowadays considered average/slightly inflated), probably 3.55-3.6 in '15.

I just checked my undergrad's jump from 2007 to 2015, and I would guess if the Duke followed a similar inflation paradigm, the 3.55-3.6 median might be accurate. My undergrad jumped from like 3.25-3.4ish (approximate numbers) in those years.

Of course, this doesn't mean anything for premeds if the science (read: prereq) courses are still brutal. Even Brown has a killer organic weedout class.

Inflation happens much more slowly in the sciences than in the humanities (you know this - this is for the sake of others reading).

 

[WedgeDawg]

Honestly, OP, if you're a smart dude/gal, the easiest way to get a high GPA is to go to one of your state schools (not even necessarily the flagship) and destroy the competition. If you're not good enough to do that, you probably will end up in the middle (or worse) at these high powered "inflationary" schools, and a 3.4 from Duke or Brown won't impress anyone.

 

[BurghMed]

Follow these steps:

1. Go to any school.
2. Pick the easiest major.
3. Take the easiest professors in that major.
4. Profit.



(Of course, you will still have to take hard science classes, but if you are solely concerned about having the highest GPA possible, this is a good formula to follow.)

I cannot agree more with this advice. If your ultimate goal is medical school, go to the easiest school (and cheapest) possible and crush everyone. Pedigree isn't nearly as important as people believe in the medical admissions process. And if you insist on going to a fantastic school to impress family/friends, at least pick an easy major.

 

[Gauss44]

There may be non-subjective data about this somewhere. For example, I was thinking that percentages of students who get A's in a given class, or percentages of student demographics that make the Dean's List, might be kept track of somewhere.

To assume that Ivy league schools have the most deflation, or that deflation is strictly correlated with the difficulty level of the admissions process, to me, is a flawed assumption. Of course, spreading rumors that one's own school has deflation, or that, "My grade of C is equal to your A," is going to happen in any discussion like this.

 

[wagonwheel23]

Threads like this make me sad.

Find a school where the professors care about their students, where your classmates are thoughtful and bright, and where you feel you can grow and thrive. You will spend 4+ important years there, and making your choice based on GPA potential may lead you to make the wrong choice.

But, if your priority is taking the easiest classes for the highest GPA, then go for it. Ultimately though, you will cheat yourself out of a great college experience.

 

[md-2020]

Threads like this make me sad.
....
But, if you're priority is taking the easiest classes for the highest GPA, then go for it. Ultimately though, you will cheat yourself out of a great college experience.

There is nothing wrong with this, common misconception.

The last sentence is just blatantly false; do mind-numbingly deflated courses correlate positively with collegiate "happiness," especially when said deflation is possibly ****ting on your future? I think not.

 

[wagonwheel23]

If you choose a school because you think you'll get a higher GPA, you will likely miss out on a school that was a better fit for you academically. No, there is no value in a boring grade deflated course. But there is significant value in rigorous and challenging science classes that will encourage intellectual growth.

 

[BurghMed]

If you choose a school because you think you'll get a higher GPA, you will likely miss out on a school that was a better fit for you academically. No, there is no value in a boring grade deflated course. But there is significant value in rigorous and challenging science classes that will encourage intellectual growth.

Tell that to the premed students at Cornell or a school with severe grade deflation who after busting their butts switch career paths due to brutal grades, despite being incredibly bright and hard working.

 

[WedgeDawg]

There may be non-subjective data about this somewhere. For example, I was thinking that percentages of students who get A's in a given class, or percentages of student demographics that make the Dean's List, might be kept track of somewhere.

To assume that Ivy league schools have the most deflation, or that deflation is strictly correlated with the difficulty level of the admissions process, to me, is a flawed assumption.

You can look up latin honor cutoffs for schools (if by percentile), which will tell you top x% cutoffs. Here are a few I've found:

Yale: top 5% is 3.96, top 15% is 3.88, top 30% is 3.80 (http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2013/09/10/latin-honor-cutoffs-inch-toward/) (2012)

Penn does it by raw number, not percentile.

Dartmouth: top 5% is 3.91, top 15% is 3.81, top 35% is 3.66 (http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com...dergraduate-Study/Honors/General-Honors)(2015)

Stanford doesn't give latin honors.

MIT doesn't give latin honors.

Duke: top 5% is 3.93, top 10% is ~3.88, top 15% is 3.82-3.85, top 25% is 3.72-3.79 (http://registrar.duke.edu/student-records/academic-recognition-and-honors) (2015)

Harvard: top 20% is 3.77, top 50% is 3.53 (http://www.gov.harvard.edu/undergra...rrent/chapter2/honors_requirements.html)(2015)

UChicago gives honors to anyone with above a 3.25 GPA

Couldn't find anything for Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Cornell.

Of course, this isn't end-all-be-all and there are a lot of variables unaccounted for, but it's a start.

 

[Vandalia]

Medical schools are also very aware of the grading patterns at different undergraduate schools.

Back when I was on an admissions committee, we were provided with a document that included the grading breakdown for every conceivable undergraduate institution. It was created to help members compare an "A" at school x with a "B" at school y. I believe it was compiled by the AAMC, but I could be wrong.

If you attend an institution known for giving "easy A's" keep in mind the med schools know that and will adjust accordingly. The same the other way around.

 

[md-2020]

Back when I was on an admissions committee, we were provided with a document that included the grading breakdown for every conceivable undergraduate institution. It was created to help members compare an "A" at school x with a "B" at school y. I believe it was compiled by the AAMC, but I could be wrong.

If you attend an institution known for giving "easy A's" keep in mind the med schools know that and will adjust accordingly. The same the other way around.

I have trouble believing this.

@gyngyn @Goro @mimelim any insight?

 

[gyngyn]

I have trouble believing this.

@gyngyn @Goro @mimelim any insight?

I've never seen anything like this.
We are aware of the variability in rigor of grading at various schools, though.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Medical schools are also very aware of the grading patterns at different undergraduate schools.

Back when I was on an admissions committee, we were provided with a document that included the grading breakdown for every conceivable undergraduate institution. It was created to help members compare an "A" at school x with a "B" at school y. I believe it was compiled by the AAMC, but I could be wrong.

If you attend an institution known for giving "easy A's" keep in mind the med schools know that and will adjust accordingly. The same the other way around.

Well at least here's at least something different in terms of insight and fodder for a discussion/thread that comes out every single week on here. Interested to hear, how exactly this system worked in terms of how much grades were exactly "adjusted" and how they were compared across institutions.

 

[navigator]

The public schools in TX definitely make you work for your grades....

Except Tech, maybe

 

[efle]

You can look up latin honor cutoffs for schools (if by percentile), which will tell you top x% cutoffs. Here are a few I've found:

Yale: top 5% is 3.96, top 15% is 3.88, top 30% is 3.80 (http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2013/09/10/latin-honor-cutoffs-inch-toward/) (2012)

Penn does it by raw number, not percentile.

Dartmouth: top 5% is 3.91, top 15% is 3.81, top 35% is 3.66 (http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com...dergraduate-Study/Honors/General-Honors)(2015)

Stanford doesn't give latin honors.

MIT doesn't give latin honors.

Duke: top 5% is 3.93, top 10% is ~3.88, top 15% is 3.82-3.85, top 25% is 3.72-3.79 (http://registrar.duke.edu/student-records/academic-recognition-and-honors) (2015)

Harvard: top 20% is 3.77, top 50% is 3.53 (http://www.gov.harvard.edu/undergra...rrent/chapter2/honors_requirements.html)(2015)

UChicago gives honors to anyone with above a 3.25 GPA

Couldn't find anything for Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Cornell.

Of course, this isn't end-all-be-all and there are a lot of variables unaccounted for, but it's a start.

But we know for a fact that the median for Harvard isn't a 3.53

I would say +1 to LACs. My sibling is at one such school where the most common majors are Visual/performing Arts, Psych, Sociology and Business. Their ACT range is pretty solid (I think like 26-31?) but her science classes as a premed are easier than what we had in our public high school. Now obviously this doesn't apply to all small colleges (some are notoriously nasty for those that know of them like Harvey Mudd) but I'd bet among the top 50 the majority would be a very good premed experience.

 

[WedgeDawg]

But we know for a fact that the median for Harvard isn't a 3.53

How do we know that for a fact. What I just pulled was straight from their website.

 

[efle]

A good number of adcom members (docs and med students) have said they don't track undergrad differences at all so I'm sure this varies

How do we know that for a fact. What I just pulled was straight from their website.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/

 

[GrapesofRath]

The median grade equaling an A- at a school doesn't mean that the median GPA at school is a 3.7. Not even close.

Top 50% 3.53 for Harvard sounds about right with other numbers I've heard about the school. I believe Yale's is somewhat higher if I'm not mistaken. Same with Brown.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Gotta say, while I'm all for reasonable challenges, I appreciate the OP's honesty.

Anyway, OP, if you do in fact choose an "easier" program, make sure they have a good track record of sending their students to med school.

 

[ZedsDed]

I don't want to go track down a bunch of individual studies, but here is a nice overview with some citations for anyone who is curious. If you want an intelligent counterpoint, see Wedge's signature.

 

[ZedsDed]

At least for once we're not derailing someone else's thread haha.

 

[WedgeDawg]

A good number of adcom members (docs and med students) have said they don't track undergrad differences at all so I'm sure this varies


http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/

As grapes pointed out, just because the grade most given out is an A, and the median grade given out is an A-, it doesn't mean that the median GPA is necessarily a 3.7.

Median doesn't account for skew like mean would. I think the actual numerical GPA given in my link is more reliable for median GPA (rather than median grade awarded).

 

[Spinach Dip]

I don't want to go track down a bunch of individual studies, but here is a nice overview with some citations for anyone who is curious. If you want an intelligent counterpoint, see Wedge's signature.

"At Harvard, the median is an A- and the mode is an A."

Wow. I'm so glad all my professors curved to a C+ (B- for the nice ones).

 

[ZedsDed]

As grapes pointed out, just because the grade most given out is an A, and the median grade given out is an A-, it doesn't mean that the median GPA is necessarily a 3.7.

How is that possible if "half of all awarded grades were in the A-range?" Ditto for Yale (62%.)

 

[WedgeDawg]

How is that possible if "half of all awarded grades were in the A-range?" Ditto for Yale (62%.)

Students don't take all classes equally. Some students will be taking more science or engineering classes (where the median isn't going to be an A-) whereas others are going to be taking more humanities classes (which will have more A and A- grades).

 

[Goro]

Even if admissions dean's have this type of info, it doesn't nessarily get to Adcom members.

I have trouble believing this.

@gyngyn @Goro @mimelim any insight?

 

[efle]

The median grade equaling an A- at a school doesn't mean that the median GPA at school is a 3.7

Fair enough, I was assuming consistency per person such that your 3.0 is composed of a bunch of B's etc. If there's a big number of people with a sprinkling of C/D/F among a bunch of A's then you could have a low skewed median (gradepoint) average.

Still surprisingly low for a 3.7 median grade 4.0 mode

 

[virtuos locust]

Brown is your best bet - if you can get in

Schools notorious for grade deflation are MIT, Princeton, Cornell, Berkeley, UCLA, Hopkins, WashU, Chicago. Avoid those and you'll be fine. Or go to one of them, do well, and own the world. Up to you.

Do you mind posting some data to back this up? Thanks.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Do you mind posting some data to back this up? Thanks.

http://www.career.ucla.edu/Portals/...2013 Medical School Admissions Statistics.pdf

That's all I have. Maybe other posters have more for UCLA.

 

[ZedsDed]

Do you mind posting some data to back this up? Thanks.

I went there, I can tell you that most of the premed classes at UCLA have the following breakdown:
17% A+/A/A-
33% B+/B/B-
33% C+/C/C-,
17% for anything less than a C-
Physics tends to be a tad worse, maxing out at around 10% for A's.

Please don't make me go digging around for data.

 

[mimelim]

I have trouble believing this.

@gyngyn @Goro @mimelim any insight?

I've never heard of or seen something like this.

 

[Spinach Dip]

I've never heard of or seen something like this.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1 person's side project.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Just to add on about UCLA It's not that this distribution is that unusual. Many state schools have this distribution and honestly many less than half the class gets an A/B. A professor at my state program which while good isnt at UCLAs level actually got put on probation for giving 25% of a ochem class A-s or higher which was deemed way too high

It's the competition that makes this so bad. Most State Us you'll have your 1700-1800 SAT average maybe 2-5% of your pre med class being a valedictorian. In UCLA try something like a 2150 SAT average and more like 30% of your class being a Val/sal in high school.

 

[md-2020]

Yo Grapes, random Q but what stage in the process are you? I see you give good advice alot and I have trouble believing you're still in UG/pre-med....?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Yo Grapes, random Q but what stage in the process are you? I see you give good advice alot and I have trouble believing you're still in UG/pre-med....?

I graduated in the spring. Applying next cycle.

 

[Gem91]

Grade inflation:

1. Brown
2. Harvard
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. Duke

Good luck.

Brown? Can you provide a link? I'd enjoy reading about it.

 

[cloudmurder1]

Threads like this make me sad.

Find a school where the professors care about their students, where your classmates are thoughtful and bright, and where you feel you can grow and thrive. You will spend 4+ important years there, and making your choice based on GPA potential may lead you to make the wrong choice.

But, if your priority is taking the easiest classes for the highest GPA, then go for it. Ultimately though, you will cheat yourself out of a great college experience.

Lol you won't cheat yourself out of ****e. You'll have more time to grow as a person outside the classroom, which is a very important facet college provides.

 

[md-2020]

Brown? Can you provide a link? I'd enjoy reading about it.

Brown is widely regarded as one of, if not the most, inflated major university in the US. A quick Google search should yield abundant results (I won't insult your intelligence by doing that for you bud). I believe the '14 average GPA in their college was 3.7-3.75, and this doesn't even factor in the fact that their don't have an official GPA, have P/F galore, no graduation requirements, and ungraded seminar.

I'm sure Orgo is still hard (I've heard it is ) but the rest of the school is super chill.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Brown is widely regarded as one of, if not the most, inflated major university in the US. A quick Google search should yield abundant results (I won't insult your intelligence by doing that for you bud). I believe the '14 average GPA in their college was 3.7-3.75, and this doesn't even factor in the fact that their don't have an official GPA, have P/F galore, no graduation requirements, and ungraded seminar.

I'm sure Orgo is still hard (I've heard it is ) but the rest of the school is super chill.

Can anybody confirm/deny whether or not Brown still has the policy that failing courses don't end up on your transcript? I'm not nearly as big on the whole "some top schools are way easier than others" narrative as others on here, but if this is still true Brown is clearly in a league of their own. Also, any truth to the rumor that Brown has far later add/drop periods meaning people bombing classes can simply drop it without repercussion instead of taking a W?

As a side note I know several people at Brown who've said people there are notorious for taking Ochem there either a) over the summer when it's known to be easier b) at another university thinking whatever minor damage might be done in how its perceived is not nearly outweighed by the fact that they don't have a poor grade in Ochem.

Anecdotally perhaps the best way you can tell a school is grade inflated is when the students themselves won't deny such a claim about their school. People I know who go/went to Brown have never openly denied this claim when I ask them about it.