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anyone know where i can find a link for med schools that have AOA? are the requirements for AOA the same at all schools? thanks
Schools with AOA
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I don't think that AOA is even an absolute requirement for applying to competitive specialties.
Anecdotally, I talked to the head of our derm dept (not because I'm gunning for derm, but because he did a lot of international work 🙂) and he mentioned that he doesn't need to see AOA to accept someone into their program. He likes to see high board scores, clinical grades, and publications.
Anecdotally, I talked to the head of our derm dept (not because I'm gunning for derm, but because he did a lot of international work 🙂) and he mentioned that he doesn't need to see AOA to accept someone into their program. He likes to see high board scores, clinical grades, and publications.
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I think i do my best work when i have something really difficult to aim for. It's more for self-motivational purposes, i guess.
learning all the med school material doesn't present enough of a challenge for you?
Just learning the material and getting "ok" grade is defiantly not enough for me lol. Always have something high to aim for.
"high board scores, clinical grades, and publications."
That probably means you are in AOA anyways lol
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You say this now, but what you fail to realize is that once you get to medical school, you will no longer be special in any way what so ever. Every one did just as well as you did in UG and was just as much of a gunner as you were. It's not that people aim for okay grades, it's just that it's literally almost impossible to get great grades. Everyone gets a 90% on the exams and only the people who get the 95%'s constantly, will get AOA. Remember, if you go to a school with an mcat average of 35 and a gpa of 3.9, half of the students in your class will be below average in medical school. Your so called "ok" grade that is not enough for you will not be an "ok" grade among undergrad students, but will be an "ok" grade among medical students who rocked their mcat just like you and had a 4.00 gpa just like you.
Doesnt matter, you can still have a high goal to shoot for. I told everyone that I was going to score a 40 on MCAT and I got a 39, while i didnt exactly it my goal it was close (I am realizing the goal of getting 4.0 in college though). It is like saying that I should not try to get a 40 because there actual chance is less than 0.5%. Just by having a goal I will be better off than where I am without it. I know the quality of people in medical school (I dont fail to realize this at all) and I am looking forward to do my absolute best.
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It's not bad to aim for AOA, but the chances of you getting it are very unlikely. A lot of it comes down to luck and just natural ability to memorize large amounts of information in short amounts of time (neither the mcat nor your gpa has tested for this). Assuming you go to a top school, everyone in your class will have the same mcat and gpa as you. These people will have worked just as hard as you in undergrad and will have accomplished just as much. Why are you so much more special that you think you will get AOA over the other people who scored a 39 on their mcat and had a 4.00 just like you?
The analogy I like to make is with players in the NFL. There are very few players in the NFL who make the pro bowl because they are special (Peyton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Etc.) Most people who make the pro bowl do so out of luck.....i.e... they have a great team around them that makes them look better, somehow their system works for them better than it works for other players, they're in an easy division, etc., etc. Just like in the NFL, medical school students have been weeded out so much that the difference between the top students and bottom students isn't that large. Every player in the NFL was the star in college. Every medical student was the star in college. Every NFL player runs a 4.4 40. Every medical student has similar stats.
If you keep weeding down the group, eventually you will just be average (unless of course you actually are that number 1 student). The medical school group has already been weeded down tremendously. I mean imagine if there was an honor society for the AOA students. Would you realistically say that you would make this?
Shoot for it by all means, but don't assume you will get it.
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Wait until you actually start medical school. This will change... you're not the only pre-med who has had this attitude you know.
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I should also add that at some schools AOA is not purely a numbers game. There is a subjective factor as well. While the criteria are well laid out (i.e. leadership, community service, etc), it often doesn't end up that way and why people are chosen over others is anyone's guess.
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If you dont at least tell youself you do have a good chance of getting it you are not making your goal high enough. It is like I want a 40 but I dont think I will. That is pretty self defeating and a dream rather than a goal. And I think alot of people should have this goal, and there is nothing wrong with it.
And of course i know about weeding process, I was in a special school in china where half of the class get selected out every year (they dont go to this school anymore).
From I what i am reading AOA allow up to 1/6 of the class to be members. Which is not horrible. Put it into perspective 39/4.0 is at top 5% in almost all medical school. Not saying stats is everything, and some people can improve more than others and catch up. However I am going to give myself the benefit of doubt and thinking that I have a realistic chance of achieving that.
And of course i know about weeding process, I was in a special school in china where half of the class get selected out every year (they dont go to this school anymore).
From I what i am reading AOA allow up to 1/6 of the class to be members. Which is not horrible. Put it into perspective 39/4.0 is at top 5% in almost all medical school. Not saying stats is everything, and some people can improve more than others and catch up. However I am going to give myself the benefit of doubt and thinking that I have a realistic chance of achieving that.
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Your undergrad stats are not a predictor of your med school performance.
"Not saying stats is everything, and some people can improve more than others and catch up. "
I already addressed that, plus someone brought up the MCAT/GPA argument. To argue purely from stats and % it isnt that bad.
"if you go to a school with an mcat average of 35 and a gpa of 3.9, half of the students in your class will be below average in medical school. Your so called "ok" grade that is not enough for you will not be an "ok" grade among undergrad students, but will be an "ok" grade among medical students who rocked their mcat just like you and had a 4.00 gpa just like you."
I am just saying that the chance is not as ridiculous abysmal as some make it out to be. It is NOT out of our hand and NOT something that that people should think they dont have a good chance. I think it should be many people's goal and within that they should think they have a ok chance.
What happened to "dream big, work hard, achieve everything" American Motto? None of you think you have a legit shot a AOA or something?
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I'm not saying you shouldn't do your best. I just think that you can't bet on AOA before having started med school. All of us would love to be AOA, but you'll see what is possible studying-wise and what's not.
This is not undergrad where you have a surplus of time and just need to dial up the studying. Most people are working hard just to pass. To get AOA, that might mean that you spend every waking hour studying. To some people, that sacrifice is not worth it.
Once you get in and see what your first test grades are, you'll have a better idea if 3rd year AOA is even possibility for you. You need to rock everything.
This says nothing of clinical performance which is a more important factor in determination of who gets AOA.
This is not undergrad where you have a surplus of time and just need to dial up the studying. Most people are working hard just to pass. To get AOA, that might mean that you spend every waking hour studying. To some people, that sacrifice is not worth it.
Once you get in and see what your first test grades are, you'll have a better idea if 3rd year AOA is even possibility for you. You need to rock everything.
This says nothing of clinical performance which is a more important factor in determination of who gets AOA.
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OP, you are being ridiculous. Knowing you can beat people in undergrad says nothing about you can beat people in med school. Remember, 39 is a 5% score, but that's among all who take the test. My med school has an average MCAT of 38, that means probably 10-20% people did the same or better than you.
and that means you won't AOA if you just looking at numbers. AOA is usually top 10%
and that means you won't AOA if you just looking at numbers. AOA is usually top 10%
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Ehh, there are some people I know who will be clearly smarter than everyone else in whatever medical school their end up going to. True geniuses, you know?
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How come MSAR shows a median of 36 for Columbia?
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Whatever floats your boat.
If you want AOA, and that's your goal, then pursue it.
If you don't want to make that commitment, then don't.
Personally, I like my top choice because they are P/F and they also don't have AOA.
I don't need four more years of this gunnerish crap.
But that's me.
We're all special in our own special way. 😉
If you want AOA, and that's your goal, then pursue it.
If you don't want to make that commitment, then don't.
Personally, I like my top choice because they are P/F and they also don't have AOA.
I don't need four more years of this gunnerish crap.
But that's me.
We're all special in our own special way. 😉
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While I applaud your intentions, you're delusional if you think you're free of competition in medical school. Sure, your first two years may be P/F with a "we're all in this together" attitude, but all bets are off come 3rd year. Not everyone can honor every clerkship and you'll definitely be dealing with some underhanded individuals, especially when 3rd year grades are a HUGE factor in residency applications.
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The basic sciences are not about "smarts," but rather how many random facts you can cram into your head. There is no reasoning involved.
The only thing that will allow you to excel without a lot of effort is a photographic memory.
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bad memory, 36 is correct.
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I am going to get AOA 
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such a discouraging thread, but a good reality check I guess.
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this definitely isn't your father's America. In the old days americans admired ambition and confidence; nowadays that sort of thing is frowned upon. No wonder we are slowly becoming a third world country. oh boy
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You can think what you want, but all the med students in this thread have already seen what goes on in med school and are telling you from real experience that AOA is difficult to get into. Sometimes, extra hard work isn't enough. It's not something that you can will into happening.
This isn't indicative of a paradigm shift in American values.
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Haha, that's still like.. the second highest median in all US med schools.
It is top 0.5% among all that takes MCAT and will place you into the top 5% in the matriculate pool of any medical school (Except a handful, Harvard, washing and maybe a few more).
But that doesnt matter I am just trying to correct the fact. Again not saying that Good MCAT=AOA or anything
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Then why even mention your score in the first place? This isn't the place to masturbate to your ego, go try one of those "what are my chances" threads.
The fact is that you don't know what medical school is like at all. It is nothing like undergrad and the board exams are nothing like the MCAT. It's your decision to continue ignoring the advice of those who've experienced it first hand, but you will be greatly humbled.
You got some sort of inferiority complex or something? I mentioned it because SOME ONE ELSE brought it up as part of THEIR ARGUMENT. "The fact" is that not everyone who got a great score and mention it on SDN is here to do "mental masturbation". So stop attacking other people because of that. It is an online forum for crying out loud. Stop judging others as if you know their original intent.
The whole time I am just saying that people should believe in their themself and have a high goal. Nothing wrong with that. Of course many are going to fail trying but it is still better than not trying. Of course I am "counting" on anything. I am encouraging others, so I dont know where you got the bragging part from. wtf...
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Same here. I think 90% of my list is H/P/F or P/F. I've already decided that I don't want to worry about trying to keep super awesome top scores any longer. It's an exercise in diminishing returns. At some point, you have to choose whether focusing all your time on being the best is worth it anymore. Lately, I've really been feeling like studying for certain grades neglects studying for understanding and balancing with life.
Isn't the MCAT the most significant predictor of USMLE success, probably partially because they're both made by the AAMC?
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thing is, if you get AOA you're probably going to get a great USMLE step 1 score and also a great residency... seems like something worth fighting for. AOA here i come !!!
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No AOA chapter here=I get to check the No AOA box on residency apps. Wewt.
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as i get older, learning to have lower standards in life has become just as important as working hard. no joke. you guys gotta chill - aim high but understand that things will work out in the end
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No, it just makes it so we have one less hoop to (try) to jump through.
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if all things on 2 apps are equal and the only difference is AOA, AOA wins.
plus some of the uber competitive residency programs like derm prescreen using AOA.
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Yes, but if you look at the numbers closely, it's a pretty weak correlation.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I thought someone gave a hypothetical situation with example numbers, and then you just went out and dropped those numbers of yours trying to impress people with you being a shoe-in for AOA.
WAIT A MINUTE... that's exactly what happened!!
Now, I'm no 39 MCAT and 4.0 here... but hey, you must be good at verbal reasoning to be getting those numbers!!! So try reading this again:
Now leave me alone unless you have something useful to say.
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On a related note, the only schools without AOA are Harvard, Stanford, UC San Diego, and UConn (please correct me if there are more). All of these schools are well-regarded and their students will have no trouble matching.
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yeah, in the good old day when hierachy still exist you lowly premed isn't even suppose to address us med students like this. You'll be put back into your place real fast, boy.
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Meh, AOA is cool, but it's definitely not necessary for any residency. Those residencies prefer to see great LOR's, a great performance during third year, a great Step 1 score, and research experience than proof that you know your biochem (oooooooh...oh wait, you'll never use it again, that's right). If you're going to be gunning for something, and it sounds like you want to be better than your peers in any way possible, gun for the best research mentor. Getting a 98 on your anatomy midterm is going to be a waste of time.
You have to consider the fact that med school is hard enough on its own that passing requires a lot of work. Getting an 80 requires at few hours a day of hard work with very productive weekends. But you CAN have a life- you can go out to eat, and work out, and sleep 8 hours. For MOST people, going from say an 85 to a 95 EXPONENTIALLY increases the amount of work. That means you're getting those random 10 points that no one in the class got cause the questions were asking for such nitpicky detail that people barely read about that stuff knowing it would be super low-yield. To memorize all of that stuff requires way more hours of work, and you'll have way less of a chance to still have some sort of life.
Incidentally, it'll leave you less time to focus on the other stuff that ACTUALLY matters, like the research experience, or finding a preceptorship in a field you really like so you can start making contacts. You want to be smart and get a good residency? Focus on that, not on getting a 100 on every test.
You have to consider the fact that med school is hard enough on its own that passing requires a lot of work. Getting an 80 requires at few hours a day of hard work with very productive weekends. But you CAN have a life- you can go out to eat, and work out, and sleep 8 hours. For MOST people, going from say an 85 to a 95 EXPONENTIALLY increases the amount of work. That means you're getting those random 10 points that no one in the class got cause the questions were asking for such nitpicky detail that people barely read about that stuff knowing it would be super low-yield. To memorize all of that stuff requires way more hours of work, and you'll have way less of a chance to still have some sort of life.
Incidentally, it'll leave you less time to focus on the other stuff that ACTUALLY matters, like the research experience, or finding a preceptorship in a field you really like so you can start making contacts. You want to be smart and get a good residency? Focus on that, not on getting a 100 on every test.
Your ability to take things out of context is amazing. Thank you for leaving my main point out when you qoute me. Despite how narrow minded you are in your thought process, it was not my intention.
So unless YOU have something to say LEAVE ME alone. YOU are the one using every opportunity to attack me personally. I never responded to any of your post until you attack me personally so again get the facts straight.
I am pretty tired of this and will not continue this conversation longer. However, it is my guess that you wont be able to resist the temptation to continue the personal attacks. Because clearly you already made up your mind with your prejudice assumptions. I guess whatever keeps you asleep at night.
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