Schools with reputation for accepting high MCAT, lower GPA?

[jjrao55531]

Hopefully this post will benefit others, I've seen similar questions in the past but no recent ones with responses giving an actual list of schools.

Which schools (ideally research-oriented) have the reputation of forgiving a lower GPA due to a higher MCAT?

MCAT (took for the first time this May) of 524, GPA is 3.6. I was in college for 7 yrs (community college, then UC Berkeley). Some F's and C's in my first year, but averaged ~3.8 for the remaining 6 years. Same for science GPA. Most of my upper-div coursework was biology/chemistry. I've been working full-time at a UCSF genomics lab for a year. Before that I had 3 years undergrad reserach (2 papers, 3rd author & 7th author, they were pretty minor papers though, plus a book chapter). I have no clinical experience except the ~44 h of shadowing I've crammed in this past month. Tbh, the biggest weakness of my application is probably the fact that I'm applying now (mid-to-late July, I expect to submit 7/19/22). I still don't have my school list figured out 😬. Wanting to go to med school was something I only realized this year. I'm 27 now and don't want to wait till next year. My statement is mostly about my non-traditional personal journey and my years of work in activism and working with the LGBTQ community in SF, and how this connects to medicine (it was hard to explain the connection but I did my best)

I can't figure out from MSAR which schools make sense, since many have much higher GPA but much lower MCAT. I also need to apply to schools that are more research-focused, since I have research experience but all my clinical is from the last month. My job is demanding, I can't afford to apply to 40 schools and won't have the time for that many secondaries I think. So I want to generate the optimal list that's not too long.

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[Doctoscope]

Lol dude you don't have a "low" GPA. It's on the lower side in terms of matriculants, but you can apply to any school in the country and be competitive. You'll be fine.

But, you you have ANY clinical experience? If you don't, then you could be quite unsuccessful this cycle. You can get into med school without research, but you can't get in without any clinical hours.

 

[jjrao55531]

Lol dude you don't have a "low" GPA. It's on the lower side in terms of matriculants, but you can apply to any school in the country and be competitive. You'll be fine.

But, you you have ANY clinical experience? If you don't, then you could be quite unsuccessful this cycle. You can get into med school without research, but you can't get in without any clinical hours.

I will have about 44 hours when I submit, but it was all in the past month so I think that looks a little suspicious

 

[Doctoscope]

I will have about 44 hours when I submit, but it was all in the past month so I think that looks a little suspicious

I think if you only have 44 hours over a month, you should delay until next cycle. Get a gap year job as a scribe or something, get some community service hours, and you'll have a great shot at almost all schools that like high stats (a lot of the higher ranked ones). Also, shadowing is not clinical hours. So, technically you have 0.

As of right now, you don't really have anything experience-wise to back up your claim of wanting to be a physician. If you submit this cycle, you'll most likely have to reapply, which is just wasted $, effort, and sanity. Your issue right now isn't your GPA at all. It's that you don't really have a narrative for "why medicine."

It'll look like you love research, and applying to medical schools on a whim.

 

[jjrao55531]

I think if you only have 44 hours over a month, you should delay until next cycle. Get a gap year job as a scribe or something, get some community service hours, and you'll have a great shot at almost all schools that like high stats (a lot of the higher ranked ones). Also, shadowing is not clinical hours. So, technically you have 0.

As of right now, you don't really have anything experience-wise to back up your claim of wanting to be a physician. If you submit this cycle, you'll most likely have to reapply, which is just wasted $, effort, and sanity. Your issue right now isn't your GPA at all. It's that you don't really have a narrative for "why medicine."

It'll look like you love research, and applying to medical schools on a whim.

Thanks, and I hear you with the $/effort/sanity. Beyond that, do you think there is a significant re-application disadvantage? I have heard mixed things about that. I can't figure out whether re-applying next year will look worse than applying for the first time next year, especially if the only change is just adding a lot of clinical hours.

 

[LeeSin]

Thanks, and I hear you with the $/effort/sanity. Beyond that, do you think there is a significant re-application disadvantage? I have heard mixed things about that. I can't figure out whether re-applying next year will look worse than applying for the first time next year, especially if the only change is just adding a lot of clinical hours.

dude, you're gonna shoot yourself in the foot. 44 hours crammed in the last month? How do you write a personal statement saying you want to be a doctor/go to med school without clinical experience? It's not just the clinical experience, it's how you will write other parts of your applications where it will show. SO many secondaries are gonna ask you questions that you won't be able to answer.

beyond that, a lot of schools are going to screen you out for having no hours. Your logic is completely flawed and you're just rationalizing a bad decision. Do. Not. Apply. (yet)

 

[Goro]

I will have about 44 hours when I submit, but it was all in the past month so I think that looks a little suspicious

44 hrs I'm shadowing, and 0 hours of clinical exposure??? only? My student interviewers would eat you alive!
You're going to need a Gap year and bulk up on your extracurriculars in terms of clinical exposure whether it's paid or volunteer.

You need to demonstrate to admissions committees that you know what you're getting into, and that you really want to be a doctor for the next 30 to 40 years.

 

[Neuroscifan]

Thanks, and I hear you with the $/effort/sanity. Beyond that, do you think there is a significant re-application disadvantage? I have heard mixed things about that. I can't figure out whether re-applying next year will look worse than applying for the first time next year, especially if the only change is just adding a lot of clinical hours.

I applied with virtually the same amount of hours in shadowing, and with less than 50 hours of clinical experience and was entirely unsuccessful my first attempt. I had a 526 mcat, which goes to show that the mcat is just a door opener. Experiences get you through the door. I reapplied this year and was very successful with several interviews, multiple WL, and a handful of A’s. Reapplying is a lot more stressful, as you don’t only have the normal expectations for a successful applicant, but you also have to write additional essays on what you’ve done to improve, and have a higher standard to prove that you learned from an unsuccessful application cycle. Most people take a gap year, and many of them focus solely on one weak aspect of their application. It demonstrates maturity and sound decision making when they see you decided not to apply, and gain more experience.

 

[jjrao55531]

Thank you everyone for your honest replies. I can see the consensus is that I should not apply due to my lack of clinical experience. Clearly I have a decision to make. Idk if this affects anything but I should have mentioned, I also have over 1000 hours non-clinical volunteering and worked full-time or part-time through most of school, all of which was related to political activism and serving marginalized communities, idk if this changes anything. (e.g. I led the student faction of the movement that made City College of SF tuition-free.) Re gap years: If I can get in this round I'll be 28 when I start, if I wait I'll be 29. I realize people are older now in med school but that's still pretty old, this is my main reason for wanting to at least try this time. FWIW I feel certainty about wanting to become a doctor, but it took me a while to arrive at this decision (which is pretty much what my statement is about), but I hearing y'all that adcoms won't believe it.

 

[jjrao55531]

I applied with virtually the same amount of hours in shadowing, and with less than 50 hours of clinical experience and was entirely unsuccessful my first attempt. I had a 526 mcat, which goes to show that the mcat is just a door opener. Experiences get you through the door. I reapplied this year and was very successful with several interviews, multiple WL, and a handful of A’s. Reapplying is a lot more stressful, as you don’t only have the normal expectations for a successful applicant, but you also have to write additional essays on what you’ve done to improve, and have a higher standard to prove that you learned from an unsuccessful application cycle. Most people take a gap year, and many of them focus solely on one weak aspect of their application. It demonstrates maturity and sound decision making when they see you decided not to apply, and gain more experience.

I'm curious, in addition to those additional essays, did you also entirely rewrite your personal statement? Or did you keep a lot of it?

 

[deleted1139339]

Hey! I’m also a Cal alum. I have a 521 mcat and 3.35 gpa. Last cycle I applied and was unsuccessful. It was because of my lack of clinical experience. This is direct feedback from adcoms. So I’d advise you to hold off on applying till next cycle.

 

[Goro]

Thank you everyone for your honest replies. I can see the consensus is that I should not apply due to my lack of clinical experience. Clearly I have a decision to make. Idk if this affects anything but I should have mentioned, I also have over 1000 hours non-clinical volunteering and worked full-time or part-time through most of school, all of which was related to political activism and serving marginalized communities, idk if this changes anything. (e.g. I led the student faction of the movement that made City College of SF tuition-free.) Re gap years: If I can get in this round I'll be 28 when I start, if I wait I'll be 29. I realize people are older now in med school but that's still pretty old, this is my main reason for wanting to at least try this time. FWIW I feel certainty about wanting to become a doctor, but it took me a while to arrive at this decision (which is pretty much what my statement is about), but I hearing y'all that adcoms won't believe it.

Wow, you're not listening.

Pay attention. Applying without clinical experience is lethal.

As an fyi, people get dismissed from residences for being unteachable

 

[candbgirl]

Thank you everyone for your honest replies. I can see the consensus is that I should not apply due to my lack of clinical experience. Clearly I have a decision to make. Idk if this affects anything but I should have mentioned, I also have over 1000 hours non-clinical volunteering and worked full-time or part-time through most of school, all of which was related to political activism and serving marginalized communities, idk if this changes anything. (e.g. I led the student faction of the movement that made City College of SF tuition-free.) Re gap years: If I can get in this round I'll be 28 when I start, if I wait I'll be 29. I realize people are older now in med school but that's still pretty old, this is my main reason for wanting to at least try this time. FWIW I feel certainty about wanting to become a doctor, but it took me a while to arrive at this decision (which is pretty much what my statement is about), but I hearing y'all that adcoms won't believe it.

Obviously you are going to do what you want despite advice from actual ADCOMS. All of the additional information you provided(activism, work experience, student leadership etc.) really won’t help your situation. You still don’t have any clinical experience. And that’s a huge issue. I know this isn’t what you wanted to hear but you came here to get advice and this is what you ended up with. Now you can use the years of experience that has been offered or you can ignore it. It’s entirely up to you.

You came to medicine late. You can’t expect to just fast track your application to an acceptance. Are you aware that each cycle less than 40% of all applicants are accepted to med school? And of that 40% about half are accepted to one school. That means around 60% of all applicants are outright rejected each cycle, including applicants with stellar applications. You really only want to apply one time with the best possible application. So do it right the first time.

 

[Doctoscope]

Thank you everyone for your honest replies. I can see the consensus is that I should not apply due to my lack of clinical experience. Clearly I have a decision to make. Idk if this affects anything but I should have mentioned, I also have over 1000 hours non-clinical volunteering and worked full-time or part-time through most of school, all of which was related to political activism and serving marginalized communities, idk if this changes anything. (e.g. I led the student faction of the movement that made City College of SF tuition-free.) Re gap years: If I can get in this round I'll be 28 when I start, if I wait I'll be 29. I realize people are older now in med school but that's still pretty old, this is my main reason for wanting to at least try this time. FWIW I feel certainty about wanting to become a doctor, but it took me a while to arrive at this decision (which is pretty much what my statement is about), but I hearing y'all that adcoms won't believe it.

We (including adcoms at medical schools) are telling you to save yourself the money and having to be a re-applicant because you will be rejected from all the schools you apply to this cycle, because of your complete lack of clinical experience. Why do that when you can delay your applications by just 1 year and be a completely different, highly competitive applicant next year? Starting medical school at 28 vs. 29 literally makes ZERO difference lol. It's just your own feelings of feeling behind.

I believe you that your motivations for pursuing medicine are real, but you do not have ANY experience to back up that claim to adcoms. Working with marginalized communities is important and impressive, but that doesn't tell schools why MEDICINE. You can work with marginalized communities at a number of different jobs. What evidence do you have that you're committed to medicine specifically (in your case at the moment, none). There are 7000+ applicants for ~100-150 spots. While your stats are impressive, there are also many other students with a 3.6/520+ who will have clinical experience and a clear narrative for "why medicine." They have no reason to accept you over them at the moment. Seriously, you will be a completely different applicant who is highly competitive for the top schools in the country if you're just patient for a year and get some clinical hours.

 

[LunaOri]

Hopefully this post will benefit others, I've seen similar questions in the past but no recent ones with responses giving an actual list of schools.

Which schools (ideally research-oriented) have the reputation of forgiving a lower GPA due to a higher MCAT?

MCAT (took for the first time this May) of 524, GPA is 3.6. I was in college for 7 yrs (community college, then UC Berkeley). Some F's and C's in my first year, but averaged ~3.8 for the remaining 6 years. Same for science GPA. Most of my upper-div coursework was biology/chemistry. I've been working full-time at a UCSF genomics lab for a year. Before that I had 3 years undergrad reserach (2 papers, 3rd author & 7th author, they were pretty minor papers though, plus a book chapter). I have no clinical experience except the ~44 h of shadowing I've crammed in this past month. Tbh, the biggest weakness of my application is probably the fact that I'm applying now (mid-to-late July, I expect to submit 7/19/22). I still don't have my school list figured out 😬. Wanting to go to med school was something I only realized this year. I'm 27 now and don't want to wait till next year. My statement is mostly about my non-traditional personal journey and my years of work in activism and working with the LGBTQ community in SF, and how this connects to medicine (it was hard to explain the connection but I did my best)

I can't figure out from MSAR which schools make sense, since many have much higher GPA but much lower MCAT. I also need to apply to schools that are more research-focused, since I have research experience but all my clinical is from the last month. My job is demanding, I can't afford to apply to 40 schools and won't have the time for that many secondaries I think. So I want to generate the optimal list that's not too long.

It’s not your GPA you need to worry about, it’s your lack of clinical experience.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

TL/DR: what every adcom said.

 

[Med Ed]

If I can get in this round I'll be 28 when I start, if I wait I'll be 29. I realize people are older now in med school but that's still pretty old,

What I wouldn't give to be 29 again.

 

[DonutDonut]

Definitely apply to UCSF. I know a guy with a very similar story to yours and got in there.

 

[Doctoscope]

What I wouldn't give to be 29 again.

Curious, since I'm around the same age and the idea of studying and training for 7+ years is hitting me as I apply... would you give up pursuing a medical career to go back to being 29 again?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Unfortunately, the med school admissions in this country care a lot more about fluff than real intelligence. Do your time and apply next year. Your stats are fine.

 

[senecca]

Unfortunately, the med school admissions in this country care a lot more about fluff than real intelligence. Do your time and apply next year. Your stats are fine.

Couldn’t have said it better. People are better off having mediocre stats , AOs will be desperate to find reasons to accept you. If you have very high stats, they will nitpick and find ways to reject you . They glorify this process by calling it holistic. One guy with 4.0/528 couldn’t get into even one medical school last cycle.

 

[Goro]

Couldn’t have said it better. People are better off having mediocre stats , AOs will be desperate to find reasons to accept you. If you have very high stats, they will nitpick and find ways to reject you . They glorify this process by calling it holistic. One guy with 4.0/528 couldn’t get into even one medical school last cycle.

That's because stats only get you to the door. A good app and ECs get you through the door.

Getting accepted isn't a reward for being a good student or having good grades. 4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen

 

[chssoccer7]

Couldn’t have said it better. People are better off having mediocre stats , AOs will be desperate to find reasons to accept you. If you have very high stats, they will nitpick and find ways to reject you . They glorify this process by calling it holistic. One guy with 4.0/528 couldn’t get into even one medical school last cycle.

I mean I am just a premed, like yourself I assume, but isn't this like...the whole point? They aren't looking only to see if we are smart enough. They are looking to see that we are smart enough AND at least look like we have the makeup of a caring and empathetic physician. Getting a 4.0 in college is not incredibly difficult, getting a good MCAT is pretty difficult, but doing the clinical hours and volunteering requires 0 intelligence and minimal effort. Anyone willing to let that keep them out of medical school probably wouldn't have made a great physician which seems to me is the whole point.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I mean I am just a premed, like yourself I assume, but isn't this like...the whole point? They aren't looking only to see if we are smart enough. They are looking to see that we are smart enough AND at least look like we have the makeup of a caring and empathetic physician. Getting a 4.0 in college is not incredibly difficult, getting a good MCAT is pretty difficult, but doing the clinical hours and volunteering requires 0 intelligence and minimal effort. Anyone willing to let that keep them out of medical school probably wouldn't have made a great physician which seems to me is the whole point.

lol. seriously, you think you really need hundreds of hours to ascertain that you want to be a doctor? It's just all the padding you need to apply. Once you are in, no one gives a flying f. about what you did before med school. I think the most important attribute of a good doctor is intelligence... sorry I don't want anyone who can't understand basic medical stuff to touch any of my patient no matter how empathetic they are. However, in order to study medicine, you probably only need a 3.5/510 to be competent...

 

[senecca]

I mean I am just a premed, like yourself I assume, but isn't this like...the whole point? They aren't looking only to see if we are smart enough. They are looking to see that we are smart enough AND at least look like we have the makeup of a caring and empathetic physician. Getting a 4.0 in college is not incredibly difficult, getting a good MCAT is pretty difficult, but doing the clinical hours and volunteering requires 0 intelligence and minimal effort. Anyone willing to let that keep them out of medical school probably wouldn't have made a great physician which seems to me is the whole point.

That person’s entire application is available on YouTube. I don’t find anything wrong with his application or him as a person. A great kid indeed !!!
moderator note: portions of this comment removed due to member reports.

But one person with 3.6/500 got into a MD school. She says she had minimal shadowing experience and no research at all.

But, this is the beauty of the secretive , subjective admission process . Isn’t it? We can defend any decision because none of us have access to the applications and essays of the accepted or rejected applicants, so no one can compare and contrast different applicants.

 

[senecca]

That's because stats only get you to the door. A good app and ECs get you through the door.

Getting accepted isn't a reward for being a good student or having good grades. 4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen

Thank you sir for your response. I see you spend many hours of your personal time every day in helping hundreds and thousands of students with their applications along with other AOs like Faha , Smiley12 etc. you don’t get anything out of it in return, you still do it for personal satisfaction. Thank you very much for the social service.

But I beg to differ sir. I believe that we have to bring more objectivity, openness and predictability into the admission process. The current process puts so much stress and anxiety on the applicants and it turns away a lot of smart, passionate and hard working kids away from the medicine at the time of undergrad admissions time itself. I personally witnessed many of them. I believe it is important for the medical field to attract them , instead of repelling them. The “unpredictable” nature drives those kids away and the exorbitant tuition (undergrad +med school) drives them away at a very young age. It is not good I believe and something has to be done by people like you. The status quo is not good for the future. Thank you sir.

 

[Med Ed]

What's that old saying about opinions?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Too many things to comment on, but I'll refrain from all but this topic:

... The current process puts so much stress and anxiety on the applicants and it turns away a lot of smart, passionate and hard working kids away from the medicine at the time of undergrad admissions time itself. I personally witnessed many of them. I believe it is important for the medical field to attract them , instead of repelling them. The “unpredictable” nature drives those kids away and the exorbitant tuition (undergrad +med school) drives them away at a very young age. It is not good I believe and something has to be done by people like you. The status quo is not good for the future. Thank you sir.

I don't know where you see this. There are a lot of reasons why undergraduate application numbers are decreasing, usually because there are fewer teenagers that want to go to college because of tuition and student debt at THAT level (so I agree there). But I am not getting the connection. You aren't seeing this happening with many other health professions' admissions processes. Pharmacy, optometry, veterinary med, etc. have seen decreasing application pools so I don't think smart, passionate kids are turning away from medicine to pursue other fields in healthcare. I also don't think getting a management degree is more "predictable". Look at law school applications. If anything the medical school application process is still bucking all of those trends with increases in pool size over the more recent years in comparison.

Yes, our current adolescents are under a lot more stress. Social media, gun violence, addiction, ... there is a real mental health crisis, and "Hidden in Plain Sight" on PBS shows this. But I don't see that guaranteed undergrad to med school tracks are suffering from a lack of applicants. And undergrad tuition increases aren't helping either. So stop watching so many influencers' posts on TikTok, Instagram, or other SM platforms to get your affirmations!

Yes, I agree there should be more transparency whenever possible, but unfortunately "making things predictable" would be a suggestion to eliminating human decision-making altogether and letting an algorithm choose who should be in healthcare; I'm certainly open for suggestions as I have made quite a number over my time. As for the "something that has to be done", we already changed the MCAT in 2015, introduced PREview this year, and we'll likely stay with virtual MMI interviews for the foreseeable future as an integral part of our application review process. A lot of people in our community (advisors/admissions/adcoms) are already worried that we're focusing too much on "the data" and putting a higher burden on applicants, instead of subjectively looking at "the person."

 

[LunaOri]

I agree that there is a lot of pressure on applicants to present an application which is excellent in all aspects, and that can be stressful. It makes sense for many applicants to take one or more gap years to explore the clinical side of medicine and gain experience in community service. THIS IS A GOOD THING! If we eliminate these expectations and subjective evaluations and focus only on high stats, we will create little robot docs. I do not want robots for my students, trainees, colleagues, or personal physicians.

 

[wysdoc]

Please keep the comments on this thread respectful and helpful to the original question. Thank you

 

[Goro]

Hopefully this post will benefit others, I've seen similar questions in the past but no recent ones with responses giving an actual list of schools.

Which schools (ideally research-oriented) have the reputation of forgiving a lower GPA due to a higher MCAT?

MCAT (took for the first time this May) of 524, GPA is 3.6. I was in college for 7 yrs (community college, then UC Berkeley). Some F's and C's in my first year, but averaged ~3.8 for the remaining 6 years. Same for science GPA. Most of my upper-div coursework was biology/chemistry. I've been working full-time at a UCSF genomics lab for a year. Before that I had 3 years undergrad reserach (2 papers, 3rd author & 7th author, they were pretty minor papers though, plus a book chapter). I have no clinical experience except the ~44 h of shadowing I've crammed in this past month. Tbh, the biggest weakness of my application is probably the fact that I'm applying now (mid-to-late July, I expect to submit 7/19/22). I still don't have my school list figured out 😬. Wanting to go to med school was something I only realized this year. I'm 27 now and don't want to wait till next year. My statement is mostly about my non-traditional personal journey and my years of work in activism and working with the LGBTQ community in SF, and how this connects to medicine (it was hard to explain the connection but I did my best)

I can't figure out from MSAR which schools make sense, since many have much higher GPA but much lower MCAT. I also need to apply to schools that are more research-focused, since I have research experience but all my clinical is from the last month. My job is demanding, I can't afford to apply to 40 schools and won't have the time for that many secondaries I think. So I want to generate the optimal list that's not too long.

Getting back to the OP, Here are the schools that I recommend ONCE YOU GET IN YOUR CLINICAL EXPOSURE.
Remove any schools where your GPAs are below their 25th %iles. The higher up the pole you want to climb, the more slippery it gets.


Vanderbilt
Columbia
Mayo
Case
Stanford
Duke
Sinai
U VA
BU
Baylor
UCSF
Pitt
USC/Keck
UCLA
U MI
Rochester
Hofstra
Ohio State
U Cincy
Dartmouth
Western MI
USF Morsani
SUNY-SB
Brown
U MA
U IA
Albert Einstein
Emory
Tufts
NYU-LI
Jefferson
Miami
SLU
U WI
U CO
U VM
Georgetown
Wake
Miami
Tulane
Your state school

So it’s good to have an element of randomness and uncertainty?

ALL human endeavors have this. The application and decision making process for admission is subjective. This drives the people who believe that admissions should be stats-based only up the wall. They don't realize that there are a gazillion high applicants out there. BUT, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, not good students.

 

[mudfud26]

Re age: I’m starting at the age of 28, and most of my classmates are 23-25. If anything being between 27-30 is a huge advantage in medical school. You know how to cope with the stress of being an adult (moving, bills, finding friends) and are more established as a person. It is better to start when your whole package is ready than to have to reapply.

As an applicant with a low GPA (3.4), I took 5 gap years before applying after retaking classes and getting a high MCAT score (515+). You have to be able to explain how you have overcome the circumstances that led to those low grades and how you will prevent low grades from happening in medical school. For me, this was learning time management and study strategies in my gap years that were instrumental in my grades in my class retakes and MCAT.

For schools, I applied to those in which I was above the 25th percentile of GPA and well above average MCAT.