Scope of Practice Question

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Ok, but is bipolar disorder best managed by a "generalist?" Does the one month clerkship + behavioral science class the nephrologist had say 10 years ago in med school qualify him to act as a psychiatrist? Let's imagine that the bipolar patient commits suicide and the family decides to sue--will that nephrologist not be sued for practicing outside his area of expertise and for mismanaging the patient? Should he not have referred the patient? I would imagine the psychiatrists would disagree with you here.

I'm not saying it isn't wise...it isn't. But that doesn't change the fact that legally and professionally they ARE allowed to prescribe those drugs based upon the nature of their training and podiatrists aren't...unless they can produce a legitimate foot/ankle-related medical purpose along with their script.

As far as the Ambien thing goes, I understand where you are coming and I more or less agree, but I do think a short course would be appropriate post-op if the pt. is having trouble sleeping; anything beyond that needs a referral.

I disagree. A line needs to be drawn. I would draw it at pain meds. Using that logic, who's to say a podiatrist can't change the dosing regimen on a patient's long-acting Lantus insulin because the steroids they prescribed caused a spike in their blood glucose? It's a slippery slope and a line DOES need to be drawn somewhere. Sure, it's objective, even arbitrary...but it's a necessity.

Of course, I don't even work in retail...so you don't have to fear this mean PharmD rejecting your script...

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
You are a young Padawan learner. You will be humbled over your upcoming years of pharmacy practice.

Also, it's hard to take you seriously with that picture. It would look more appropriate if activate your extensor pollicis longus to form an "L".
 
Members don't see this ad :)
But you can't prescribe one?

I do it every day, actually. Just today I selected and dosed a bunch of antibiotics based upon an order from a physician to do such.

Take your prescription pad jealousy to another thread and stop trolling.

Keep slinging ad hominems and straw men at me...digging yourself a deeper hole. I'm also not trolling...I'm informing. I'm telling you what's what...how I, as another healthcare worker, would handle the situation. You chose to take the opportunity to hear our concerns and interpretation of state/federal law as used in common practice as the other people in the equation and insult me. And that's fine. But, really, who's trolling?
 
Last edited:
Firstly, I am well aware of my scope of practice, and I didn't say that podiatrists have an unlimited scope. Podiatrists have an unlimited license to prescribe drugs. You need to read more carefully.

Limited scope of practice = limited prescribing authority. It is that simple. You can justify prescribing a SSRI for neuropathy but let's see you justify prescribing oral contraceptive for a foot condition.
 
Limited scope of practice = limited prescribing authority. It is that simple. You can justify prescribing a SSRI for neuropathy but let's see you justify prescribing oral contraceptive for a foot condition.

No, Limited Scope of Practice does not equal Limited Prescribing Authority. That's the point I've been trying to get across to the "freaking drug expert". Limited SOP means that your SOP is limited to treating conditions that affect the foot and ankle. DPMs have an unlimited license to prescribe drugs, since the legislature realizes that many drugs are written off label and as long as a drug has been deemed safe by the FDA, in can be used off label for another indication prior to it being deemed efficacious (in FDA trials).

Therefore, if there were a foot condition was discovered that oral contraceptives treated (even off label), it would be in a DPMs authority and license to Rx them. Our DEA gives us that authority without requiring a drug be FDA indicated.

I am also the principle investigator on several drug trials including an FDA Phase II trial of a new antibiotic for MRSA diabetic foot infections. I understand these nuances and have attempted to impart this knowledge on our friend above.

But he seems to think in terms of labeling and generalizations.
 
Limited scope of practice = limited prescribing authority. It is that simple. You can justify prescribing a SSRI for neuropathy but let's see you justify prescribing oral contraceptive for a foot condition.

I don't understand why everyone is so caught up on birth control. Anyway, point being is that if there was a proven off label use for birth control for a foot/ankle disorder it could be done, right? If there is a legitimate reason for it, there's a valid script, and if there's a valid script, the pharmacist should fill it. I don't understand what the big issue is here.
 
For the podiatry students out there who are debating that specialized MD can not prescribe out of scope, they can. Podiatrists and dentists cannot. Its pretty much true in NY and every other state that I know of. Its not a matter that we dont respect you guys, we do. However the law is the law. Debating it over with a bunch of pharmacists who all agree on the same issue is pointless.

I dont know why you guys are debating on something that is pretty much stated out. Pharmacy is the most legal intensive healthcare profession out there. We are out there everyday making sure that everybody's "ass" is covered and everything is in compliance. Just because you guys dont see us doing it in the background does not mean it does not happen.

From a business aspect, every script that we take goes into our bonus. Every script that we reject is 10 minutes of our precious time explaining and arguing with the patient.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Limited SOP means that your SOP is limited to treating conditions that affect the foot and ankle.

Only drugs for the foot and ankle. Just remember not to prescribe Yazmin for your wife or BenzaClin for your kids' acne.
 
I don't understand what the big issue is here.
Everyone's issue is with diabeticfootdr claiming that if he simply thinks something is relevant to foot and ankle pathology he is allowed to prescribe it. While generally true, no pharmacist is going to fill a phenytoin script from a DPM. So while he's being smug thinking he's the only one who understands the difference between SOP and RxP, we all know that one effectively limits the other.

No, Limited Scope of Practice does not equal Limited Prescribing Authority. That's the point I've been trying to get across to the "freaking drug expert". Limited SOP means that your SOP is limited to treating conditions that affect the foot and ankle. DPMs have an unlimited license to prescribe drugs, since the legislature realizes that many drugs are written off label and as long as a drug has been deemed safe by the FDA, in can be used off label for another indication prior to it being deemed efficacious (in FDA trials).
 
Limited scope of practice = limited prescribing authority. It is that simple. You can justify prescribing a SSRI for neuropathy but let's see you justify prescribing oral contraceptive for a foot condition.

And, I just thought of a reason. As part of these drug studies, if a woman is of childbearing age I have to ensure 2 methods of contraception to enroll them in the trial. I haven't had to Rx OCs for this yet, since none of the diabetics with foot ulcers or infections have been of childbearing age in my trials. But not only in this case would I be justified doing it, I am legally obligated as the PI on an FDA trial.

Number 2, I haven't the foggiest idea how to Rx OCs. So if I had to, I would call a pharmacist or their PCP and ask.
 
Everyone's issue is with diabeticfootdr claiming that if he simply thinks something is relevant to foot and ankle pathology he is allowed to prescribe it. While generally true, no pharmacist is going to fill a phenytoin script from a DPM. So while he's being smug thinking he's the only one who understands the difference between SOP and RxP, we all know that one effectively limits the other.

Phenytoin has not only been studied for painful diabetic neuropathy, it has been used topically on diabetic foot ulcers.

There are numerous examples, and I'm sure we can find many which there are no lower extremity indication, but my point has been just because you think there aren't any LE indications, doesn't mean that there aren't. You should ask the treating doctor.
 
No, Limited Scope of Practice does not equal Limited Prescribing Authority. That's the point I've been trying to get across to the "freaking drug expert". Limited SOP means that your SOP is limited to treating conditions that affect the foot and ankle. DPMs have an unlimited license to prescribe drugs, since the legislature realizes that many drugs are written off label and as long as a drug has been deemed safe by the FDA, in can be used off label for another indication prior to it being deemed efficacious (in FDA trials).

Therefore, if there were a foot condition was discovered that oral contraceptives treated (even off label), it would be in a DPMs authority and license to Rx them. Our DEA gives us that authority without requiring a drug be FDA indicated.

I am also the principle investigator on several drug trials including an FDA Phase II trial of a new antibiotic for MRSA diabetic foot infections. I understand these nuances and have attempted to impart this knowledge on our friend above.

But he seems to think in terms of labeling and generalizations.

None of us are disputing that a podiatrist can use a medication off label to treat a condition of the foot and ankle. If Yasmin was found to cure toenail fungus, none of us would have a problem filling your Yasmin scripts all day long. This disagreement is NOT about off label use of pharmaceuticals. We all dispense things off label, all the time.

What I think WVU is disputing is that a 30-day supply of Ambien is being prescribed to treat a legitimate foot/ankle pathology. I haven't yet seen anyone explain precisely WHAT foot condition that could be for.
 
I don't understand why everyone is so caught up on birth control. Anyway, point being is that if there was a proven off label use for birth control for a foot/ankle disorder it could be done, right? If there is a legitimate reason for it, there's a valid script, and if there's a valid script, the pharmacist should fill it. I don't understand what the big issue is here.

No. Thats the issue. You will learn later that in the field of healthcare, just because sometimes even if it can be explained via slippery slope arguement, in this case Ambien for post op surg x 30 days, it cannot. The insurance wont take it and next thing you know, they will be pulling out all scripts written by that provider. Not only do we not get paid for all the expensive drugs that we dispensed and fined, but several times, it gets send to regulatory boards.

Once in regulatory boards, just because its a long case scenario does not mean they will accept it. It gets both of us in trouble. The arguement that the script is legal does not hold because anyone can stole a RX pad and write legal scripts or a runnaway doctor can be selling pain medications, or a prescriber is an addict himself, etc. Pharmacists are in place to cover everybody's ass including prescriber and to ensure to their best of ability everybody is compliant. The question is begging, why risk your hard earned license for such nonsense. Would you really write BCP for your friends and family when you practice?
 
No, Limited Scope of Practice does not equal Limited Prescribing Authority. That's the point I've been trying to get across to the "freaking drug expert". Limited SOP means that your SOP is limited to treating conditions that affect the foot and ankle. DPMs have an unlimited license to prescribe drugs, since the legislature realizes that many drugs are written off label and as long as a drug has been deemed safe by the FDA, in can be used off label for another indication prior to it being deemed efficacious (in FDA trials).

....
more typing...

And AT THAT POINT the drug is used for a legitimate medical purpose because there is an accepted use for it in literature. Until then, you can't prescribe it. This is my entire point and why I say you CAN'T prescribe 30 days of Ambien. And, also, your "DEA" is our DEA...and they have no authority over contraceptive agents, anyway. That's the realm of the board of pharmacy. Seriously, if you are going to try to debate this with me, at least know what you are talking about.

Again - if the drug has a legit use within the realm of etiologies stemming from podiatry, a podiatrist can prescribe. We are not debating or challenging this. We don't want to. However - anything else, sorry, I'm LEGALLY obligated to refuse to fill it. That's how it is. Call any board of pharmacy and ask them what they think...and they'll tell you the same thing.

Your use of an appeal to authority fallacy implying that your alleged experience helps you become an authority in this case makes me chuckle, too. :laugh: Any amount of credentials you throw out doesn't change facts or common pharmacy practice...
 
And, I just thought of a reason. As part of these drug studies, if a woman is of childbearing age I have to ensure 2 methods of contraception to enroll them in the trial.

Here's another reason: you dont wan't your subjects to get pregnant and have to drop out of your studies so you must prescribe a oral contraception and just pray to God that they don't get pregnant.

That's like a dentist saying he must prescribe lithium to treat bipolar because he does not want his bipolar patient to go crazy and eat a whole bunch of candies and therefore, destroying his teeth.
 
None of us are disputing that a podiatrist can use a medication off label to treat a condition of the foot and ankle. If Yasmin was found to cure toenail fungus, none of us would have a problem filling your Yasmin scripts all day long. This disagreement is NOT about off label use of pharmaceuticals. We all dispense things off label, all the time.

What I think WVU is disputing is that a 30-day supply of Ambien is being prescribed to treat a legitimate foot/ankle pathology. I haven't yet seen anyone explain precisely WHAT foot condition that could be for.

I actually have patients on Ambien for RLS. Completely within my scope.
 
Here's another reason: you dont wan't your subjects to get pregnant and have to drop out of your studies so you must prescribe a oral contraception and just pray to God that they don't get pregnant.

That's like a dentist saying he must prescribe lithium to treat bipolar because he does not want his bipolar patient to go crazy and eat a whole bunch of candies and therefore, destroying his teeth.

No, you don't want the patients to get pregnant to avoid birth defects from an experimental drug used in a F&A condition. Slightly more serious.
 
Why not prescribe folic acid while you are at it.
 
I remember this dentist who got caught massaging his patient's breasts while she was out and justified it by saying that by massaging her breasts, it would reduce her dental pain.
 
I actually have patients on Ambien for RLS. Completely within my scope.



Reasonable enough explanation. Do you think the zolpidem is in some way treating the cause of the RLS or it is intended to simply help the patient fall asleep and sleep through the symptoms?
 
Another thing to keep in mind also depending on state is that even if you are a specialized MD prescribing out of scope, even though it is legit, there is also the questions of regulations requiring the prescriber itself to document everything including tests and pmh.
 
I remember this dentist who got caught massaging his patient's breasts while she was out and justified it by saying that by massaging her breasts, it would reduce our dental pain.

I heard about that as well. I also heard of a DPM doing pelvic exams claiming it was part of his "complete" H&P. I'm not sure how that one turned out in the courts. It was brought up by a patient on sexual assault claims.
 
I actually have patients on Ambien for RLS. Completely within my scope.

Laughable. No it isn't. The etiology of RLS DOES NOT stem from the foot or ankle, it stems from neurological dysfunction. It is not something that should be treated by a podiatrist. That's like a dentist prescribing drugs to treat a patient's epilepsy because they might harm their teeth in a tonic-clonic seizure.

And who uses Ambien for that, anyway? I don't believe that you actually are treating people with Ambien. I hope not at least...there are so many superior options...specifically some of the selective dopaminergic agonists. And if you are going to use a drug that agonizes the BZD receptor...why Ambien? Why not something like, I don't know...a real BZD? You are REALLY reaching with that one....seriously...
 
Reasonable enough explanation. Do you think the zolpidem is in some way treating the cause of the RLS or it is intended to simply help the patient fall asleep and sleep through the symptoms?

I think it might do both. What's funny about one particular case I remember is where the patient's wife told me that his RLS was better since she didn't get bruises on her legs any longer from him kicking her!
 
Are you going to perform the pap smear?

Hell no! I was considering OBGYN but after shadowing at my mother's practice I said no way Jose. I'll stick to Maggot Debridement Therapy :laugh:
 
I think it might do both. What's funny about one particular case I remember is where the patient's wife told me that his RLS was better since she didn't get bruises on her legs any longer from him kicking her!

Wrong. Ambien can be used to help a patient with RLS to sleep but it does not treat RLS since Ambien has nothing to do with dopamine. This is exactly why you shouldn't practice out of your scope of practice.
 
It is not something that should be treated by a podiatrist.

And who uses Ambien for that, anyway?

1. You have no authority administrate this. It is your opinion, and not one based on any evidence. You do not sit on a podiatry state board which governs the practice of podiatry.

2. Try a pubmed search on Ambien and RLS. I'm not here to do your research for you.
 
For the podiatry students out there who are debating that specialized MD can not prescribe out of scope, they can. Podiatrists and dentists cannot. Its pretty much true in NY and every other state that I know of. Its not a matter that we dont respect you guys, we do. However the law is the law. Debating it over with a bunch of pharmacists who all agree on the same issue is pointless.

I dont know why you guys are debating on something that is pretty much stated out. Pharmacy is the most legal intensive healthcare profession out there. We are out there everyday making sure that everybody's "ass" is covered and everything is in compliance. Just because you guys dont see us doing it in the background does not mean it does not happen.

From a business aspect, every script that we take goes into our bonus. Every script that we reject is 10 minutes of our precious time explaining and arguing with the patient.

First of all, I never said they couldnt. :rolleyes:

The point is that they should not prescribe out of their scope of practice. Again, my cousin, the cardiologist will not prescribe meds if its not related to his scope of practice.

lol


P.S. I used to work as a Pharm Tech ;)
 
1. You have no authority administrate this. It is your opinion, and not one based on any evidence. You do not sit on a podiatry state board which governs the practice of podiatry.

2. Try a pubmed search on Ambien and RLS. I'm not here to do your research for you.


Does your scope of practice in Iowa include the entire lower extremity? In Kentucky, the scope is foot/ankle only, but I know other states have expanded privs. Could a DPM in Kentucky treat RLS, under those restrictions?
 
Does your scope of practice in Iowa include the entire lower extremity? In Kentucky, the scope is foot/ankle only, but I know other states have expanded privs. Could a DPM in Kentucky treat RLS, under those restrictions?

The scope in Iowa is fairly vague and open to interpretation by the state board. The exact language states that a podiatric physician may treat the foot and ankle by any means, medical, surgical, and physical. The definition of ankle has been debated in court since the law doesn't read "ankle joint". Therefore, ankle has been defined as the lower leg below the knee in previous case law.

In KY, I would think it depends on the previous board rulings. Perhaps no case specifically on RLS has come up (which would be rare if it did). Some state laws specify the osseous structures of the ankle and soft tissue of the leg.

I don't have any personal experience in KY, but I know some doctors who run a residency program in Louisville. If you want to ask specific questions I can direct you to him.
 
First of all, I never said they couldnt. :rolleyes:

The point is that they should not prescribe out of their scope of practice. Again, my cousin, the cardiologist will not prescribe meds if its not related to his scope of practice.

lol


P.S. I used to work as a Pharm Tech ;)

nor does my mother, an OBGYN (just called and asked) although she does have the legal right to, but she assumes the liability ;)

I ALSO worked as a pharm tech - 6yrs! unfortunately it made me hate pharmacy practice, but love pharmacists (most of 'em) and love the study of pharm - verrrrry interesting!)
 
First of all, I never said they couldnt. :rolleyes:

The point is that they should not prescribe out of their scope of practice. Again, my cousin, the cardiologist will not prescribe meds if its not related to his scope of practice.

lol


P.S. I used to work as a Pharm Tech ;)

I think so much its not a good idea for the cardiologist to prescribe meds not related to his scope of practice because in order for him to prescribe something, he should have documentation. For example, if you need an hypertensive medication, he has to have the labs/tests for it in order for him to do it. Thats another issue. However should he choose to, he can always order anything that is needed, and give it out. (I am oversimplfying things)

A MD/DO can prescribe for family/friends legally provided things are documented.
 
A MD/DO can prescribe for family/friends legally provided things are documented.

So can a DPM. I have Rx'd Lasix for my mom. I've even Rx'd for myself - Augmentin and Naprosyn. Keeping an accurate log is a must. There is no special privilege of an MD/DO to Rx for family/friends or self.

Where are you in NY? I did my residency at the B/Q Saint Vincent's System (which is no more - I heard!).
 
The other question I have about zolpidem for RLS is whether you consider that first-line therapy or if patients have tried and failed on other more conventional therapies for RLS? We have a ton of RLS patients at my VAMC, but most of them are being treated with ropinerole and iron. In fact, if I saw Ambien on the profile of an RLS patient, I am not sure I would have connected the dots. Particularly if the patient had another diagnosis that was related to insomnia (which most of our patients do).
 
I've even Rx'd for myself - Augmentin and Naprosyn.

Someone bit your foot? An animal or an irate patient?? :p

And yeah, I agree that anyone with RXP can RX for themselves or family, provided the right documentation is maintained. I've filled many antibiotics for docs and their family members. Most of the time, it's not a big deal. I would only be concerned if I saw problematic patterns. But most prescribers don't make a habit of stuff like this. It's more of an occasional thing.
 
The other question I have about zolpidem for RLS is whether you consider that first-line therapy or if patients have tried and failed on other more conventional therapies for RLS? We have a ton of RLS patients at my VAMC, but most of them are being treated with ropinerole and iron. In fact, if I saw Ambien on the profile of an RLS patient, I am not sure I would have connected the dots. Particularly if the patient had another diagnosis that was related to insomnia (which most of our patients do).


I have used Ambien 1st line a few times when the main complaint is the leg jerking waking them up. Perhaps their legs still jerk but it doesn't interfere with sleep???? I have used Mirapex if there is severe jerking or when the partner complains too. In the 6-7 patients I've treated with RLS, they improved on their respective treatments. I did find the abstract of this review below.

Trenkwalder C et al. Treatment of restless legs syndrome: An evidence-based review and implications for clinical practice. Mov Disord. 2008 Oct 16.

Only in the last three decades, the restless legs syndrome (RLS) has been examined in randomized controlled trials. The Movement Disorder Society (MDS) commissioned a task force to perform an evidence-based review of the medical literature on treatment modalities used to manage patients with RLS. The task force performed a search of the published literature using electronic databases. The therapeutic efficacy of each drug was classified as being either efficacious, likely efficacious, investigational, nonefficacious, or lacking sufficient evidence to classify. Implications for clinical practice were generated based on the levels of evidence and particular features of each modality, such as adverse events. All studies were classed according to three levels of evidence. All Level-I trials were included in the efficacy tables; if no Level-I trials were available then Level-II trials were included or, in the absence of Level-II trials, Level-III studies or case series were included. Only studies published in print or online before December 31, 2006 were included. All studies published after 1996, which attempted to assess RLS augmentation, were reviewed in a separate section. The following drugs are considered efficacious for the treatment of RLS: levodopa, ropinirole, pramipexole, cabergoline, pergolide, and gabapentin. Drugs considered likely efficacious are rotigotine, bromocriptine, oxycodone, carbamazepine, valproic acid, and clonidine. Drugs that are considered investigational are dihydroergocriptine, lisuride, methadone, tramadol, clonazepam, zolpidem, amantadine, and topiramate. Magnesium, folic acid, and exercise are also considered to be investigational. Sumanirole is nonefficacious. Intravenous iron dextran is likely efficacious for the treatment of RLS secondary to end-stage renal disease and investigational in RLS subjects with normal renal function. The efficacy of oral iron is considered investigational; however, its efficacy appears to depend on the iron status of subjects. Cabergoline and pergolide (and possibly lisuride) require special monitoring due to fibrotic complications including cardiac valvulopathy. Special monitoring is required for several other medications based on clinical concerns: opioids (including, but not limited to, oxycodone, methadone and tramadol), due to possible addiction and respiratory depression, and some anticonvulsants (particularly, carbamazepine and valproic acid), due to systemic toxicities. (c) 2008 Movement Disorder Society.
 
Someone bit your foot?

Our new cat.

I just finished my life insurance physical and was approved for my new policy at Tier 1, which my insurance agent said he only had 2 people in Des Moines over the past year qualify for that. I considered myself seemingly healthy.

Then, I got my wife a kitten for her birthday. Allergies!!!! Wow!!! Within 1 week I was on 7 medications. Augmentin and tramadol for an ankle bite, 2 eye drops for a scratch to the eye, fluticazone and albuterol inhalers, and Zyrtec.

Luckily, they've really calmed down and now I just use the albuterol or Zyrtec occasionally.

Good think I secured my policy prior to that!
 
Cat bites are nasty. When I was working at Kroger (several years ago) I had a patient come in with a script for Augmentin for a cat bite. He had no insurance, was low on cash and it was going to be expensive, over $100. His hand was swollen and turning black...I tried to impress upon him that it wasn't an optional kinda situation. I ended up calling the ER doc and got it switched to doxycycline (much cheaper).
 
Of all the friends I know that are either MD/DO/DPM and even pharmacists (including family members), I had to jump in here for a few reasons. First of all, bashing each other is quite petty and juvenile. No one here is a member of a state licensing board nor the FINAL authoritative voice on ANYONE prescribing or treating ANY pathology. If ANY doc wants to step out of his scope, it is up to his superiors (i.e. medical/podiatric/pharmacy,ec. board) to decide and justly discipline him/her.

Those of you arguing that so and so's scope/script/uniform/fondling procedures, etc. are out of line with said board, need to take a chill pill of your own. I've been damn long surrounded with medical acquaintances/experiences and have never seen such ridiculous bs as this thread has become. I hope a mod closes it, because it is a pissing/ego contest and way off the real discussion. Who gives a crap what a DPM or doc scribes? If a pharmacist has a prob with it, report the doc through channels not come on here touting your medical/healthcare "vigilante skills". I'm done preaching too. This post has me so extremely annoyed, to even bother following up on some of the asanine remarks by supposed members of the overal healthcare team.

Some of you need to realize that if you're in or through a professional school, I hope your peers read your comments and shun you on a professional level for complete lack of maturity or tact. Wow, what a wakeup call to the degree of class some people lack -- even after busting their butts to get in or through hard programs. You can be as learned as you want or think you are, but still be a jackass in reality and daily living.

Ok, I'm out of here unless some decides to berate me with more childish behavior of their own already dominant throughout this thread of ugly, condescending banter. :rolleyes:

Diabeticfootdr: This is not intended toward you at all, as it seems you may be the most legit here, yet dealing with this bizarre attempt of some others to start a flame war for the sake of controversy. None of the posts challenging you even remotely seem to be able to stay on track. Rather they attempt to denigrate a profession, or even worse, attack you personally (a gross violation of TOS by the way mods, yes?) in not so subtle ways. Mods, please close this for good. Thanks.
 
I'm not a big fan of your (diabeticfootdr) condescending attitude towards pharmacists. We are not mindless lackeys who fill anything and everything that comes into our pharmacy because Dr. so and so said so. Remember, all pharmacists for the past 18 years or so receive doctoral degrees as well. When it comes to pharmacotherapy, WE are the terminal authoritarians and experts.

Pharmacy is the most highly regulated profession in the United States. More than medicine, more than the airline industry, more than podiatry, more than anything. Pharmacists are the only health care professionals required to take law and ethics courses, and sit for a law exam. When it comes to the legal ramifications involving the prescribing and dispensing of medications, we are the experts, not you. Hate to break it you.

Due to the extreme regulation of pharmacy, our license is always on the line. That means if a pharmacist fills a prescription for a controlled substance from a prescriber who is prescribing out of their scope of practice, that pharmacist is violating the law and, if audited by the DEA and/or Board of Pharmacy, can have their license revoked. Drugs prescribed for off label usage by a prescriber out of scope of practice have better have SUBSTANTIAL evidence in the literature. A couple of studies randomly found by googling, or pulling some 50 person RCT out of Pubmed is not considered SUBSTANTIAL evidence in the eyes of the Board of Pharmacy.

The Board is not going to ever revoke the license of a pharmacist who denied a potentially questionable script for a sleep aid from a DPM whose feelings/ego got hurt. If you think us as pharmacists give a damn about your professional ego, get a clue. At the end of the day, our license is vastly more important to us. I'd refuse the script too for that reason.
 
Yeah...but the difference is that if an MD or DO specializing in some random specialty that isn't OBGYN wrote a script for birth control, I'd still fill it. If a podiatrist wrote a script for birth control, I'd chuckle and void the prescription.

Of course I am a clinical pharmacist, so I don't deal with prescriptions as much, anyway...meh.


Here's the thing, what gives you the right to make decisions on which med is appropriate on that pt. or condition specific to that pt., without a history of that pt.,etc.? A DPM (or whatever specialty it is writing it) is the one responsible for the script NOT you. You can advise a doc but you don't have final authority. If you question the script, then question it above the prescribing doc if you feel the need. You can't just arbitrarily deem a script useless and toss it out. Wtf? How did you get a license to practice meds while in pharm school? Or am I missing something WVU in WV allows their pharm students to do? You'd have to drink moonshine in the WV hills, to believe you're in the right to make a call to void a script with no further questions asked. :confused:
 
I'm not a big fan of your (diabeticfootdr) condescending attitude towards pharmacists. We are not mindless lackeys who fill anything and everything that comes into our pharmacy because Dr. so and so said so. Remember, all pharmacists for the past 18 years or so receive doctoral degrees as well. When it comes to pharmacotherapy, WE are the terminal authoritarians and experts.

Pharmacy is the most highly regulated profession in the United States. More than medicine, more than the airline industry, more than podiatry, more than anything. Pharmacists are the only health care professionals required to take law and ethics courses, and sit for a law exam. When it comes to the legal ramifications involving the prescribing and dispensing of medications, we are the experts, not you. Hate to break it you.

Due to the extreme regulation of pharmacy, our license is always on the line. That means if a pharmacist fills a prescription for a controlled substance from a prescriber who is prescribing out of their scope of practice, that pharmacist is violating the law and, if audited by the DEA and/or Board of Pharmacy, can have their license revoked. Drugs prescribed for off label usage by a prescriber out of scope of practice have better have SUBSTANTIAL evidence in the literature. A couple of studies randomly found by googling, or pulling some 50 person RCT out of Pubmed is not considered SUBSTANTIAL evidence in the eyes of the Board of Pharmacy.

The Board is not going to ever revoke the license of a pharmacist who denied a potentially questionable script for a sleep aid from a DPM whose feelings/ego got hurt. If you think us as pharmacists give a damn about your professional ego, get a clue. At the end of the day, our license is vastly more important to us. I'd refuse the script too for that reason.
You're not a judge and jury, you're a licensed healthcare professional. If you think a script is wrong then address it above yourself, not make final decisions yourself. If pharmacists make final calls on meds prescribed than why to hell do we need DOCTORS? Why not you just have a pt. call you and ask what YOU would suggest they take. How about a drive-thru pharmacy, where Harold and Millie come in and just ask your opinion on what's best for their self diagnosis -- arrived at from searching google themselves? Seems logical, no?

If a doc writes a script and sends a pt. home with it, he assumes liability and -- assumes it WILL be filled according to HIS specs. If you change it or toss it, then when the pt. croaks, will YOU assume liability for deciding it WASN'T warranted? I think not. If so, damn, a doc can just send pt's to you and bill them for their visit and his time. No need to even eval the pt. -- let the pharmacist at Walmart handle it. :laugh::laugh:
 
Last edited:
Top