SCOTUS will increase to 11 or 13 Justices

[VA Hopeful Dr]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Yeah I guess I kind of understand your reasoning here- that people who pay taxes and own part of the land being governed might have in some sense more “skin in the game” and might be expected to vote more responsibly than people that can vote themselves what appear to be increasing benefits in the short term not realizing that in the long term their quality of life is getting squeezed out by the burden of a bureaucracy that does not itself drive the economic engine at all but is simultaneously beholden to global capitalist interests that compete in the same marketplace where they might otherwise be able to get a manufacturing job or something and then be able to purchase land themselves?

But really that’s VERY backwards in 2020. I disagree whole-heartedly and I’m leaving sdn if you guys keep up these kinds of arguments

That was sarcasm

 

[deleted941637]

Buddy, you were the one who started the “dumb people aren’t fit to vote” train. Perhaps you didn’t realize the consequences of your ignorant statement?

The consequences of a basic literacy test would be to throw out entire states’ electoral college votes?

 

[Ezekiel2517]

AZ: Biden +11,635
GA: Biden +14,148
MI: Biden +148,645
NV: Biden +36,870
PA: Biden +53,898
WI: Biden +20,546

And counting. Biggest recount margin change in American history: -667.

Biden has surpassed the % of the popular vote won by Ronald Reagan in 1980. He has the biggest margin of victory over an incumbent president since FDR beat Hoover in 1932.

 

[vector2]

The consequences of a basic literacy test would be to throw out entire states’ electoral college votes?

Lol you meant *literally* a third grade education? Other than being a tremendous waste of time, they have quite the racist history and are extremely unconstitutional.

 

[deleted941637]

Lol you meant *literally* a third grade education? Other than being a tremendous waste of time, they have quite the racist history and are extremely unconstitutional.

Yeah I meant it literally, have you been talking figuratively?

Do you think education is important in a democracy?

<3 your new internet pal,
GWS

 

[vector2]

AZ: Biden +11,635
GA: Biden +14,148
MI: Biden +148,645
NV: Biden +36,870
PA: Biden +53,898
WI: Biden +20,546

And counting. Biggest recount margin change in American history: -667.

Biden has surpassed the % of the popular vote won by Ronald Reagan in 1980. He has the biggest margin of victory over an incumbent president since FDR beat Hoover in 1932.

Stop with all the stats and facts, please. Everyone keeps telling me it was very close and Joe Biden should just hire Republicans and enact Republican policy and do whatever Mitch says because we are exactly a 50/50 split country and bipartisanship with people who don’t care about norms is great.

Yeah I meant it literally, have you been talking figuratively?

Do you think education is important in a democracy?

<3 your new internet pal,
GWS

Sure, but not disenfranchising people based on their level of educational attainment is more important. Also, your slice of America who literally haven’t completed third grade but who still vote regularly is so incredibly small that it’s laughable to even waste time thinking about a potential “problem” there. Consider for a moment that 90% of adults age 25 and over have completed high school.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Top republican election lawyer:

 

[deleted941637]

Stop with all the stats and facts, please. Everyone keeps telling me it was very close and Joe Biden should just hire Republicans and enact Republican policy and do whatever Mitch says because we are exactly a 50/50 split country and bipartisanship with people who don’t care about norms is great.



Sure, but not disenfranchising people based on their level of educational attainment is more important. Also, your slice of America who literally haven’t completed third grade but who still vote regularly is so incredibly small that’s it laughable to even waste time thinking about a potential “problem” there.

The cut off is: can they currently read at a third grade level. NOT did they finish third grade. I don’t care if they have a PhD in molecular physics they have to read a paragraph about a dog and a fire hydrant or whatever and answer a question about what happened in the story. They can pick the language for all I care

My other option is they have to give first and last names of the President and VP candidates from each of the major two parties (barring a significant change in 2-party system by next round).

Who do you think I’m trying to disenfranchise?

 

[vector2]

The cut off is: can they currently read at a third grade level. NOT did they finish third grade. I don’t care if they have a PhD in molecular physics they have to read a paragraph about a dog and a fire hydrant or whatever and answer a question about what happened in the story. They can pick the language for all I care

My other option is they have to give first and last names of the President and VP candidates from each of the major two parties (barring a significant change in 2-party system by next round).

Who do you think I’m trying to disenfranchise?

Sorry, waste of time and unconstitutional. Next.

 

[deleted941637]

Sorry, waste of time and unconstitutional. Next.

So you wouldn’t support a constitutional amendment for this, to ensure that a minimally educated electorate is voting for our leaders? Even though you think education is important for democracy?

And don’t you think this would help the Dems? That’s why I don’t get the disenfranchise argument. Unless there’s some assumption you have I’m missing?

 

[deleted171991]

I am 100% against voter disenfranchisement.

However... I think mail-in ballots are the IQ test we need to filter out the truly dumb ones. Fill out a form for an absentee ballot, send it in (there are a ton of websites with instructions for that). Complete the ballot, put it in inner envelope, sign envelope, put it in outer envelope, mail it or drop it off at the polling station. Anybody who cannot follow these simple written instructions correctly, does not deserve to have their vote counted, I'm sorry. (If I make a mistake, I'll be happy to give up my vote, too.) That's not voter disenfranchisement; even the military refuses to enlist these people.

The Georgia method, of contacting voters whose absentee ballots were incorrectly filled in, is RIDICULOUS.

 

[vector2]

So you wouldn’t support a constitutional amendment for this, to ensure that a minimally educated electorate is voting for our leaders? Even though you think education is important for democracy?

And don’t you think this would help the Dems? That’s why I don’t get the disenfranchise argument. Unless there’s some assumption you have I’m missing?

Nope. There are plenty of people who deserve a voice and enfranchisement regardless of educational attainment. Liberty means allowing people to make choices even if you don’t always agree with their choice or the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind their choice. People who don’t understand this are usually people who have not spent any time reading US history or learning about the various mechanisms from our founding to now which were used to prevent non-landowners, non-white males, non-males, poorly literate, those unable to afford poll taxes, those without transportation, those without ID, and on and on from voting.

 

[deleted941637]

Nope. There are plenty of people who deserve a voice and enfranchisement regardless of educational attainment. Liberty means allowing people to make choices even if you don’t always disagree with their choice or the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind their choice. People who don’t understand this are usually people who have not spent any time reading US history or learning about the various mechanisms from our founding to now which were used to prevent non-landowners, non-white males, non-males, poorly literate, those unable to afford poll taxes, those without transportation, those without ID, and on and on from voting.

Yeah but since Trump voters are the dumb ones... my plan only hurts them right? And there’s no such thing as “disenfranchising” a white male. People who don’t understand this usually haven’t read Ibram X. Kendi

 

[deleted171991]

Nope. There are plenty of people who deserve a voice and enfranchisement regardless of educational attainment. Liberty means allowing people to make choices even if you don’t always agree with their choice or the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind their choice. People who don’t understand this are usually people who have not spent any time reading US history or learning about the various mechanisms from our founding to now which were used to prevent non-landowners, non-white males, non-males, poorly literate, those unable to afford poll taxes, those without transportation, those without ID, and on and on from voting.

I have definitely spent more time on US history than the average native citizen, and still I am absolutely 100% for drawing a line.

If even the US military thinks a person is too dumb even for cannon fodder (IQ<81), why would I let him decide my future?

Create a voting system that requires following instructions at an IQ level of 82. If ballot correctly filled out (and sent), it counts. If not, it doesn't. Helping somebody else to fill in/send a ballot is a felony. Simple.

Just because a system has been historically misused doesn't mean that it's bad per se. That's like almost every medication we use; it could kill in the wrong dose given to the wrong person.

P.S. I also think that our citizenship test is a JOKE. These are all invented to recruit as many dummies as possible, that the politicians can easily maneuver. Where do you think a lot of the Trump/AOC bases come from, NASA?

 

[Matty44]

The IRS didn't preferentially target conservatives, that was Faux News BS:

FACT CHECK: Did the IRS 'Fast Track' Tax-Exempt Status for 'After School Satan' Clubs?

The Internal Revenue Service granted nonprofit status in 2014 to an organization that now sponsors "After School Satan" clubs, two years before they were created.

www.snopes.com

Wiretapping never occurred, period, and there is zero proof of same:

Fact check: viral Facebook post says Obama wiretapped Trump Tower

A widespread Facebook post is recycling the false claim that President Barack Obama wiretapped then-candidate Donald Trump -- and comparing that unsubstantiated allegation to the scandal that brought down President Richard Nixon. The post has been re-circulating as Trump accuses Obama of an...

www.wral.com

There were and remain legitimate concerns about Kavanaugh's past and personal integrity.

As to the Steele dossier, the veracity of the claims made was unknown at that time, but FBI officials thought there was plenty of merit

Uhhh, I don’t think I said anything about satan clubs.

But the IRS absolutely did target conservatives. And they admitted it and settled lawsuits with many of them.

“In a legal settlement that still awaits a federal judge's approval, the IRS "expresses its sincere apology" for mistreating a conservative organization called Linchpins of Liberty — along with 40 other conservative groups — in their applications for tax-exempt status.”

“The consent order says the IRS admits it wrongly used "heightened scrutiny and inordinate delays" and demanded unnecessary information as it reviewed applications for tax-exempt status. The order says, "For such treatment, the IRS expresses its sincere apology."

IRS Apologizes For Aggressive Scrutiny Of Conservative Groups

Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced settlements in two long-running cases against the IRS, saying, "There's no excuse" for the agency's treatment of the groups, which sought tax-exempt status.

www.npr.org

And yes, wiretapping occurred. You post a “fact check” about a specific FB post about Trump Tower specifically being wiretapped. Congrats.

“US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe.

The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump.”

Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman

US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN.

www.google.com

The Kavanaugh hearings were a disgrace and the man was accused of being a gang rapist with ZERO credible evidence and some of his accusers admitted they just straight made up the accusations.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

On the dossier....

“On Sunday, Comey claimed that the FBI did not intentionally commit wrongdoing, but described the FBI's failures as "real sloppiness." He said the Horowitz report "did not find misconduct by any FBI people," rather just "mistakes and negligence."

Wallace was quick to remind Comey that attorney Kevin Clinesmith was referred for criminal investigation for the doctored email. Comey said "that's not been resolved." He did say it was "fair" to say that the FBI provided false information to the FISA court.

Comey said that "in general" he was unaware of "the particulars of the investigation" when it was going on, but said that as the person at the head of the FBI at the time, it still falls on him.

"I was responsible for this."”

Comey admits ‘I was wrong’ on FISA conduct, remains defiant on dossier in tense interview | Fox News

Comey admits ‘I was wrong’ on FISA conduct, remains defiant on dossier in tense interview

www.foxnews.com

 

[vector2]

Yeah but since Trump voters are the dumb ones... my plan only hurts them right? And there’s no such thing as “disenfranchising” a white male. People who don’t understand this usually haven’t read Ibram X. Kendi

My showing you the states with the least education attainment (and them happening to be all red states) was a rhetorical device meant to show you how silly your premise is/was since presumably you're right-leaning given your right-leaning take on voting. Unlike you I think every American citizen should have the opportunity to vote.

 

[LimpSpatula]

I have definitely spent more time on US history than the average native citizen, and still I am absolutely 100% for drawing a line.

If even the US military thinks a person is too dumb even for cannon fodder (IQ<81), why would I let him decide my future?

Create a voting system that requires following instructions at an IQ level of 82. If ballot correctly filled out (and sent), it counts. If not, it doesn't. Helping somebody else to fill in/send a ballot is a felony. Simple.

Just because a system has been historically misused doesn't mean that it's bad per se. That's like almost every medication we use; it could kill in the wrong dose given to the wrong person.

P.S. I also think that our citizenship test is a JOKE. These are all invented to recruit as many dummies as possible, that the politicians can easily maneuver. Where do you think a lot of the Trump/AOC bases come from, NASA?

What about the elephant in the room?Millions of Trump voters believe the election was rigged and that Trump was sent by God to help the working class and save children from Hollywood pedophiles. These people already decide your future and I’m pretty sure most of them can read and have an IQ >82.

 

[vector2]

I have definitely spent more time on US history than the average native citizen, and still I am absolutely 100% for drawing a line.

If even the US military thinks a person is too dumb even for cannon fodder (IQ<81), why would I let him decide my future?

Create a voting system that requires following instructions at an IQ level of 82. If ballot correctly filled out (and sent), it counts. If not, it doesn't. Helping somebody else to fill in/send a ballot is a felony. Simple.

Just because a system has been historically misused doesn't mean that it's bad per se. That's like almost every medication we use; it could kill in the wrong dose given to the wrong person.

P.S. I also think that our citizenship test is a JOKE. These are all invented to recruit as many dummies as possible, that the politicians can easily maneuver. Where do you think a lot of the Trump/AOC bases come from, NASA?

I filled out an absentee ballot this year (for the first time) and I read the enclosed instructions 2.5 times just to make sure I followed the steps correctly to ensure it wasn't unnecessarily invalidated. And my guess is my IQ is a bit higher than average populace. I wouldn't fault someone for soliciting or receiving assistance to make sure their ballot was filled out correctly because going through bureaucratic minutiae to make sure the signatures are in the right place or that the penciled-in bubbles are within the lines is more of an OCD test, not an intelligence test imo.

I think a more educated populace being the bulk of the electorate is a "good" thing. However, I am not in favor of the government deciding who is "educated" enough, regardless of whether they are dem or GOP. Both dumb red state and blue staters should have a right to vote.

 

[vector2]

I wasn't talking about the current system.

I was talking about designing an easier one, at IQ 81+ level.

IQ is not the end-all-be-all of intelligence, as you well know. And even if it was, I do not support a litmus test to be able to vote. There are some incredibly dumb, low-IQ people who still pay taxes, or who still could be imprisoned for a crime, or who are affected by myriad laws which legislators make. They still deserve the right to vote .

 

[deleted171991]

What about the elephant in the room?Millions of Trump voters believe the election was rigged and that Trump was sent by God to help the working class and save children from Hollywood pedophiles. These people already decide your future and I’m pretty sure most of them can read and have an IQ >82.

Of course 82 means nothing. But we need a line, as a society, otherwise we'll just keep repeating the mistakes of the past.

50% of the population is under 100. Do you know how friggin' STUPID is 100?

 

[Mad Jack]

Uhhh, I don’t think I said anything about satan clubs.

But the IRS absolutely did target conservatives. And they admitted it and settled lawsuits with many of them.

“In a legal settlement that still awaits a federal judge's approval, the IRS "expresses its sincere apology" for mistreating a conservative organization called Linchpins of Liberty — along with 40 other conservative groups — in their applications for tax-exempt status.”

“The consent order says the IRS admits it wrongly used "heightened scrutiny and inordinate delays" and demanded unnecessary information as it reviewed applications for tax-exempt status. The order says, "For such treatment, the IRS expresses its sincere apology."

IRS Apologizes For Aggressive Scrutiny Of Conservative Groups

Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced settlements in two long-running cases against the IRS, saying, "There's no excuse" for the agency's treatment of the groups, which sought tax-exempt status.

www.npr.org

And yes, wiretapping occurred. You post a “fact check” about a specific FB post about Trump Tower specifically being wiretapped. Congrats.

“US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe.

The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump.”

Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman

US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN.

www.google.com

The Kavanaugh hearings were a disgrace and the man was accused of being a gang rapist with ZERO credible evidence and some of his accusers admitted they just straight made up the accusations.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

On the dossier....

“On Sunday, Comey claimed that the FBI did not intentionally commit wrongdoing, but described the FBI's failures as "real sloppiness." He said the Horowitz report "did not find misconduct by any FBI people," rather just "mistakes and negligence."

Wallace was quick to remind Comey that attorney Kevin Clinesmith was referred for criminal investigation for the doctored email. Comey said "that's not been resolved." He did say it was "fair" to say that the FBI provided false information to the FISA court.

Comey said that "in general" he was unaware of "the particulars of the investigation" when it was going on, but said that as the person at the head of the FBI at the time, it still falls on him.

"I was responsible for this."”

Comey admits ‘I was wrong’ on FISA conduct, remains defiant on dossier in tense interview | Fox News

Comey admits ‘I was wrong’ on FISA conduct, remains defiant on dossier in tense interview

www.foxnews.com

Ppsted the wrong IRS fact check link lol. The actual fact check is behind a paywall but here's Fox News breaking it down.

Fact check rips IRS official over Tea Party targeting claims

A detailed fact-check published Monday tore into an IRS official's claim that the agency's scrutiny of conservative groups started in response to an influx of nonprofit applications, showing the practice started well before the forms started flooding in.

www.foxnews.com

Here is the actual report on the issue:

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201710054fr.pdf

I'm too busy with real life and not your GOP fantasy land, but the gist of the wiretapping is that it was done under a legal court order and in the course of a legal investigation. Saying Obama specifically wiretapped someone is ignorant hogwash.

 

[Mad Jack]

Of course 82 is nothing.

50% of the population is under 100. Do you know how friggin' STUPID is 100?

Dare I say that intelligence doesn't qualify one to vote, as intelligence and decision making capacity have little relation to one another beyond a certain low threshold

 

[Neopolymath]

The framing is wrong IMO. We are worried about mouth-breathing neanderthals speaking for us (and in our juries) but making rules to exclude them is such a kneejerk reaction. How about we work extra hard to improve education and exterminate this culture of anti-intellectualism sweeping the USA? It's going to be incredibly, incredibly hard given the current climate only exacerbated by Trump but I think it's the only answer. It also MUST happen for democracy to work correctly. I don't think that's a partisan statement.

 

[deleted171991]

Dare I say that intelligence doesn't qualify one to vote, as intelligence and decision making capacity have little relation to one another beyond a certain low threshold

Agree. The threshold is not that low though. Voting is a complex decision, not 2+2, and requires pretty good association/inference power (beyond life experience and political education).

Of course I am just playing with utopic arguments. No democracy will ever draw a line based on IQ/education etc.

One thing is clear: the politicians running the show like their electorate to be dumb, hence brainwashable.

 

[vector2]

Lost track of the number of trump staffers and trump-adjacent people who have caught COVID a long time ago. And yet they're the ones who we're supposed to believe have a plan?




This is not just testing. Hospitalizations and deaths are on the way up as well.

 

[pgg]

Yeah I guess I kind of understand your reasoning here- that people who pay taxes and own part of the land being governed might have in some sense more “skin in the game” and might be expected to vote more responsibly than people that can vote themselves what appear to be increasing benefits in the short term not realizing that in the long term their quality of life is getting squeezed out by the burden of a bureaucracy that does not itself drive the economic engine at all but is simultaneously beholden to global capitalist interests that compete in the same marketplace where they might otherwise be able to get a manufacturing job or something and then be able to purchase land themselves?

But really that’s VERY backwards in 2020. I disagree whole-heartedly and I’m leaving sdn if you guys keep up these kinds of arguments

WHOOOOoooosh

 

[Mad Jack]

The framing is wrong IMO. We are worried about mouth-breathing neanderthals speaking for us (and in our juries) but making rules to exclude them is such a kneejerk reaction. How about we work extra hard to improve education and exterminate this culture of anti-intellectualism sweeping the USA? It's going to be incredibly, incredibly hard given the current climate only exacerbated by Trump but I think it's the only answer. It also MUST happen for democracy to work correctly. I don't think that's a partisan statement.

I also think there is a serious problem with conflating intelligence with good judgment. They are entirely separate entities, and one does not necessarily correlate with the other. A more apt way of evaluating voters would be a basic civics test demonstrating unferstanding of the underlying institution and a test to evaluate basic logical decisionmaking. This sort of thing could easily be gamed by either party, however, and would be dangerous to implement for that reason

 

[DocMcCoy]

AZ: Biden +11,635
GA: Biden +14,148
MI: Biden +148,645
NV: Biden +36,870
PA: Biden +53,898
WI: Biden +20,546

Winning margin of votes:

AZ BIDEN +0.4%
GA BIDEN +0.3%
MI BIDEN +2.7%
NV BIDEN +2.7%
PA BIDEN +0.8%
WI BIDEN +0.5%


That’s close.

“If you torture the numbers enough, they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear.”

 

[Twiggidy]

So you wouldn’t support a constitutional amendment for this, to ensure that a minimally educated electorate is voting for our leaders? Even though you think education is important for democracy?

And don’t you think this would help the Dems? That’s why I don’t get the disenfranchise argument. Unless there’s some assumption you have I’m missing?

No. Because then people would start defining “minimal education”. Let’s assume you say “high school degree”. So now the senior in HS who is 18 in Sept can’t vote, when based on current laws they should be allowed. Plus we know based on history the people who would come up with the rules would create them to preferentially give their party the advantage, ie the history of the term “grandfather’d in”

 

[vector2]

Winning margin of votes:

AZ BIDEN +0.4%
GA BIDEN +0.3%
MI BIDEN +2.7%
NV BIDEN +2.7%
PA BIDEN +0.8%
WI BIDEN +0.5%


That’s close.

“If you torture the numbers enough, they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear.”

Every state on that list except GA and WI is out of recount territory margin. AZ is automatic recount for 0.1% margins or smaller. The margin is big enough in GA and WI that Biden would easily survive a recount, but even without GA and WI Biden is still over 270.

 

[BLADEMDA]

My comn

No election in history has shifted by that many votes due to recounts or fraud. It is delusional to think that multiple states would have fraud on an unprecedented scale

my comment about a few thousand votes was a National one. That means all the fraud combined in all the states may equal 1500-2500 votes. I did not mean to imply 3,000 fraudulent votes in any one state

despite the fact that fraud is rare it does exist. Mail in voting needs to be looked at by each state for fraud prevention. When even a few dozen dead people cast their ballots it undermines the integrity of the election.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Every state on that list except GA and WI is out of recount territory margin. AZ is automatic recount for 0.1% margins or smaller. The margin is big enough in GA and WI that Biden would easily survive a recount, but even without GA and WI Biden is still over 270.

You might be missing my point. Clearly Biden is president. The way the game is played, the election was decided by less than 1% of voters in a handful of states.

That is close. You can twist the numbers but that is close.

 

[Mad Jack]

Winning margin of votes:

AZ BIDEN +0.4%
GA BIDEN +0.3%
MI BIDEN +2.7%
NV BIDEN +2.7%
PA BIDEN +0.8%
WI BIDEN +0.5%


That’s close.

“If you torture the numbers enough, they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear.”

Close was the 500 votes that decided 2000. This is a big nothing pile of nonsense.

 

[Mad Jack]

My comn


my comment about a few thousand votes was a National one. That means all the fraud combined in all the states may equal 1500-2500 votes. I did not mean to imply 3,000 fraudulent votes in any one state

Ah, that's fair. I would be shocked if there were even a thousand, and that most of those were people that were confused about their eligibility rather than true intentional fraud

 

[Mad Jack]

Civil war brewing inside Proud Boys as the top leader says he's done pretending he isn't a Nazi

www.rawstory.com

Well at least they're done pretending to be anything but a hate group, for the five people out there that didn't realize they're just dogwhistling Nazis

 

[DocMcCoy]

Close was the 500 votes that decided 2000. This is a big nothing pile of nonsense.

Ugh. Man I’m not defending, at all, what Trump is doing. More so regarding VEC’s comment that we aren’t a country split down the middle. We clearly are.

 

[vector2]

You might be missing my point. Clearly Biden is president. The way the game is played, the election was decided by less than 1% of voters in a handful of states.

That is close. You can twist the numbers but that is close.

Ugh. Man I’m not defending, at all, what Trump is doing. More so regarding VEC’s comment that we aren’t a country split down the middle. We clearly are.

You’re saying “the country” is a certain way and but then in your first post you were sure to qualify “the way the game is played” aka the electoral college. You can say the electoral college makes things *appear* to be split down the middle, but it’s clearly not the way the country is split when you consider that Biden has the largest popular vote margin in 20 yrs and is the first challenger to unseat an incumbent in a two-man race since 1932.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You’re saying “the country” is a certain way and but then in your first post you were sure to qualify “the way the game is played” aka the electoral college. You can say the electoral college makes things *appear* to be split down the middle, but it’s clearly not the way the country is split when you consider that Biden has the largest popular vote margin in 20 yrs and is the first challenger to unseat an incumbent in a two-man race since 1932.

Because Trump sucks.

I would say the House is a better barometer for the country as a whole. The fact that it goes back and forth so often likely points to a combination of enough swing voters to shift things and voter engagement from year to year (hence why in recent years midterms go against the President's party).

 

[Mad Jack]

Ugh. Man I’m not defending, at all, what Trump is doing. More so regarding VEC’s comment that we aren’t a country split down the middle. We clearly are.

Oh that's certainly true, sorry I missed the context. The country is shockingly divided, I was astounded at the level of support Trump received

 

[Matty44]

Ppsted the wrong IRS fact check link lol. The actual fact check is behind a paywall but here's Fox News breaking it down.

Fact check rips IRS official over Tea Party targeting claims

A detailed fact-check published Monday tore into an IRS official's claim that the agency's scrutiny of conservative groups started in response to an influx of nonprofit applications, showing the practice started well before the forms started flooding in.

www.foxnews.com

Here is the actual report on the issue:

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201710054fr.pdf

I'm too busy with real life and not your GOP fantasy land, but the gist of the wiretapping is that it was done under a legal court order and in the course of a legal investigation. Saying Obama specifically wiretapped someone is ignorant hogwash.

I didn’t say “Obama specifically” and I sighted CNN and NPR. Are those the news organizations that fuel my GOP fantasyland? Gotta love it. You know someone has no leg to stand on when they slink to name calling. Something y’all do a lot on here.

 

[vector2]

Because Trump sucks.

I would say the House is a better barometer for the country as a whole. The fact that it goes back and forth so often likely points to a combination of enough swing voters to shift things and voter engagement from year to year (hence why in recent years midterms go against the President's party).

I disagree that the House is a better barometer. There is no better barometer for true nationwide political split than the “one man one vote” data that one gets from a popular vote in a two-party system. This is especially true when the House is totally gerrymandered and each rep represents >700,000 people.

 

[DocMcCoy]

You’re saying “the country” is a certain way and but then in your first post you were sure to qualify “the way the game is played” aka the electoral college. You can say the electoral college makes things *appear* to be split down the middle, but it’s clearly not the way the country is split when you consider that Biden has the largest popular vote margin in 20 yrs and is the first challenger to unseat an incumbent in a two-man race since 1932.

Even using the popular vote. 5% of the entire electorate would have made the difference between winner and loser You are trying to paint one side as the bas guy and make another side somehow superior. and my point is there just aren’t any numbers to back that up. My point is both sides can spin the numbers to make their argument sound good and nobody should be using them that way it’s a losing strategy for both sides.

 

[Mad Jack]

I didn’t say “Obama specifically” and I sighted CNN and NPR. Are those the news organizations that fuel my GOP fantasyland? Gotta love it. You know someone has no leg to stand on when they slink to name calling. Something y’all do a lot on here.

You like to think that your side has some kind of moral high ground when it comes to political integrity, and that’s just laughable. Just in the very recent past we have the disgusting Kavanaugh hearings, the Steele dossier (which was literally the Clinton campaign using fake foreign intelligence (which the FBI knew was unreliable) to try and take down Trump), you got Obama using the IRS to target conservatives, and Obama’s administration surveilled and wiretapped members of Trump’s campaign. Not to mention the ridiculous polls in swing states right up until Election Day that I’d argue are way more impactful in suppressing votes than long lines at the polls are.

So gimme a break. Salty is correct that both sides suck.

And I don’t recall the source at this moment, but it went from something like 50% of dems believed that this election would be legitimate before Nov 3rd, and now it’s up at 90 something %. So again, Salty is correct that when it goes in one sides favor, they believe it’s valid. When it doesn’t, they don’t. #notmypresident

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I disagree that the House is a better barometer. There is no better barometer for true nationwide political split than the “one man one vote” data that one gets from a popular vote in a two-party system. This is especially true when the House is totally gerrymandered and each rep represents >700,000 people.

Except given the EC setup lots of people (no clue the exact numbers) probably don't vote for President or are more likely to vote 3rd party if they know their vote for President doesn't matter because their state is not a swing one.

Besides, if gerrymandering was a huge problem wouldn't we not see the huge swings that we do in the House every couple of years?

 

[Matty44]

You said “saying Obama specifically wiretapped someone.” That’s what I was disagreeing with, cause I never said that. It was under his administration that it was done, as was the IRS shenanigans.

 

[LimpSpatula]

Even using the popular vote. 5% of the entire electorate would have made the difference between winner and loser You are trying to paint one side as the bas guy and make another side somehow superior. and my point is there just aren’t any numbers to back that up. My point is both sides can spin the numbers to make their argument sound good and nobody should be using them that way it’s a losing strategy for both sides.

Objectively you could say Trump undermines democracy and what he’s doing is of detriment to the country. The fact that his supporters don’t realize that doesn’t make it less true. The numbers are binary in who a voter supported, not whether or not someone is bad or superior.

 

[Mad Jack]

You said “saying Obama specifically wiretapped someone.” That’s what I was disagreeing with, cause I never said that. It was under his administration that it was done, as was the IRS shenanigans.

The FBI does not operate under the Executive branch you absolute dunce at civics

 

[Mad Jack]

I didn’t say “Obama specifically” and I sighted CNN and NPR. Are those the news organizations that fuel my GOP fantasyland? Gotta love it. You know someone has no leg to stand on when they slink to name calling. Something y’all do a lot on here.

I cited a fact check and the governmenr report upon which it was based, which found no such discrimination to have occurred.

 

[Matty44]

The FBI does not operate under the Executive branch you absolute dunce at civics

I never said the FBI was part of the executive branch. The FBI is part of the DOJ and they report to the attorney general. The head of the FBI at the time was appointed by the Obama and the attorney general was also appointed by the president, hence my statement about it happening under Obama’s administration.

But continue with the childish name calling if it makes you feel better.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Take it to PM if either of you insists on continuing. Thanks.