Scotus 2023

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BLADEMDA

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I am pleased with the rulings from Scotus this year. I think they followed the law as written and made the correct decisions:

1. Student Loan Forgiveness- Correct decision. HEROES Act was never intended to be used for all students.

2. Affirmative Action- The US constitution forbids discrimination based on race. We can't allow our schools, colleges and businesses to use race as a factor in hiring, promotions or admissions. Now, "the content of our character" becomes law.

3. Religion- We should allow religious accommodations whenever possible.

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Dems should have expanded the court when they had the chance.
 
I am pleased with the rulings from Scotus this year. I think they followed the law as written and made the correct decisions:

1. Student Loan Forgiveness- Correct decision. HEROES Act was never intended to be used for all students.

2. Affirmative Action- The US constitution forbids discrimination based on race. We can't allow our schools, colleges and businesses to use race as a factor in hiring, promotions or admissions. Now, "the content of our character" becomes law.

3. Religion- We should allow religious accommodations whenever possible.

Just going to attack one of these having just finished reading the opinion.

The SCOTUS opinion on student loan forgiveness is the most brazenly political action the court has taken in my lifetime.

The Court completely ignores long established rules of standing to arrive at its conclusion.

The issue at hand is that Missouri claims it has the right to sue the Biden administration for damages due to the idea that MOHELA (a state created corporation which manages student loan debt) will be suffering damages due to the Biden forgiveness plan.

The problems with this scheme are listed well by Kagan in her dissent, but I'll summarize:
MOHELA is not a part of the Missouri government. As a corporation, its debts are its own, and Missouri is not responsible for them AT ALL. The majority opinion doesn't even try to argue against this. They just assert it is a "government instrumentality" and ignore its separate corporate identity, its financial independence, and its distinct legal rights. MOHELA didn't even join their suit and actively fought against the AG of Missouri throughout this case.

Why is this important? Because under this framework, it essentially means third parties can sue for damages. It's as if Ben loaned Terry $5, then Terry lost his job at Starbucks, and now Ben can sue Starbucks for lost income.

Regardless of how you feel about Student Loan Forgiveness (I have mixed feelings on it) everyone should recognize this SCOTUS action for what it truly is: brazenly politically motivated with little pretext for judicial restraint or precedent.

Addendum:
 
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lmao what a sh1t country
 
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I just find it bizarre that someone can merely think about starting a website business, conjure up some insane scenario with a fake client, and then dress it up into some legal case that makes it all the way to the SCOTUS.

The court has lost a lot of credibility this term, not just with their rulings, but especially when it comes to corruption and ethics.

 
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400 billion dollars. Congress didn’t authorize that spending but by executive decree Biden thinks he can add to our huge debt. Like it or not, 400 billion requires Congress to pass legislation and the President to sign it. The idea that any President can spend 1/2 trillion dollars on a domestic program without the vote of Congress is totally outrageous and makes Biden more of a King than a President. No President should ever have that much power regardless of party.

The intent of the Heroes act was to reward students who joined the military. It was never intended for every student loan borrower. SCOTUS made the right decision and if Biden wants to wipe away 1/2 trillion in student loans get Congress to agree.
 
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400 billion dollars. Congress didn’t authorize that spending but by executive decree Biden thinks he can add to our huge debt. Like it or not, 400 billion requires Congress to pass legislation and the President to sign it. The idea that any President can spend 1/2 trillion dollars on a domestic program without the vote of Congress is totally outrageous and makes Biden more of a King than a President. No President should ever have that much power regardless of party.

I mean if you want to just abandon the pretense of maintaining a legal tradition, by all means, that's pretty "kingly" too.

"Ends justify the means" for SCOTUS, always have always will, but this decision is beyond the pale.

Edit: Congress did authorize that spending through the HEROES Act, Congress should be the place to tell Biden he's overstepping in this case.
 
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I just find it bizarre that someone can merely think about starting a website business, conjure up some insane scenario with a fake client, and then dress it up into some legal case that makes it all the way to the SCOTUS.

The court has lost a lot of credibility this term, not just with their rulings, but especially when it comes to corruption and ethics.

SCOTUS is restoring credibility to the Courts and showing restraint when it comes to personal religion, liberty and govt over-reach. Nobody was actually harmed by SCOTUS decisions this week;instead govt intrusions are put in their place.
 
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SCOTUS is restoring credibility to the Courts and showing restraint when it comes to personal religion, liberty and govt over-reach. Nobody was actually harmed by SCOTUS decisions this week;instead govt intrusions are put in their place.

How is credibility restored when basic rules of standing are ignored for political expediency?

It was government overreach to you, which is a perfectly acceptable political position to have. But you HAVE to agree that disregarding standing here is an overtly political decision by the majority that is a travesty of judicial restraint.
 
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I need to start joining some religions so I can pretend I can’t work on random arbitrary days of the week.
 
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In 2007 Bush 43 signed the mortgage and forgiveness act (basically if you walked away or short sold ur home from 100k debt) the banks would have forgiven u. No problem

The problem was the 1099-c cancellation of debt the IRS would go after you. So if u walked away from 100k debt. IRS wants 33k back from u. Congress pass the law absorbing this debt


Congress passed the law people.

If Biden wants loan forgiveness. Have congress pass the student loan forgiveness act by both house and senate and sign the law.

He was trying to circumvent it by being a dictator /Putin making his own executive decision with spending govt money.
 
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I am pleased with the rulings from Scotus this year. I think they followed the law as written and made the correct decisions:

1. Student Loan Forgiveness- Correct decision. HEROES Act was never intended to be used for all students.

2. Affirmative Action- The US constitution forbids discrimination based on race. We can't allow our schools, colleges and businesses to use race as a factor in hiring, promotions or admissions. Now, "the content of our character" becomes law.

3. Religion- We should allow religious accommodations whenever possible.

But we can discriminate as long as we think our religion supports it though right?
 
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I am pleased with the rulings from Scotus this year. I think they followed the law as written and made the correct decisions:

1. Student Loan Forgiveness- Correct decision. HEROES Act was never intended to be used for all students.

It's the obviously correct decision. This level of spending clearly ought to be at the direction of the legislature, and the scope of the act used to justify it is clearly reviewable by the courts.

I do have reservations about the standing issue that permitted the challenge at SCOTUS in the first place though. I'm not enough of an internet lawyer to pretend to understand all of the wrinkles of who can and can't bring a suit. The path to this getting to SCOTUS looks sketchy, even though I personally think it deserved to be reviewed and halted.

If Biden wants to forgive a bunch of student loans, he should ask Congress to appropriate the funds. If Congress won't do it, the remedy for Biden is to get re-elected in 2024 and convince voters to elect Senators and Representatives that'll do so.

2. Affirmative Action- The US constitution forbids discrimination based on race. We can't allow our schools, colleges and businesses to use race as a factor in hiring, promotions or admissions. Now, "the content of our character" becomes law.

Correct decision.

It doesn't really have to change any of the admissions results very much - universities can tilt their admissions to socioeconomic status or essays ranked in order of hardships encountered or other fuzzy "life challenges" they've overcome.

But - it's interesting to me that California, which ended AA in the 90s, has had limited success doing that. NPR ran an article about it today that noted that diversity in the UC system decreased since prop 209 passed in 1996, despite trying very hard, and at great expense, to find other reasons to admit those students.

TFA said:
Starting in the early 2000s, the UC system implemented a couple of initiatives to increase diversity: The top-performing students graduating most high schools in the state were guaranteed admission to most of the eight UC undergraduate campuses. It also introduced a comprehensive review process to "evaluate students' academic achievements in light of the opportunities available to them" – using an array of criteria including a student's special skills and achievements, special circumstances and location of high school.

So - there's the blueprint for admitting some of the same people AA helped. But probably many fewer of them, because impoverished white people and immigrant Asian people now have equally compelling stories to write essays about. I don't think that's a bad thing.

Yet despite its extensive efforts, UC struggles to enroll a student body that is sufficiently racially diverse to attain the educational benefits of diversity.

It's never been entirely clear to me what the "educational benefits" of diversity actually are. It's one of those things that's stated as if it's a self-evident fact.

I understand of course, the personal benefit to the individuals who were admitted despite lower grades and test scores. That's obvious. Less obvious to me is how valuable it was for the rest of us. When I was memorizing biochem pathways or studying for the MCAT, the life experiences of my classmates weren't really helpful. Even in the art and literature classes that rounded out my education, I can't really point to any of my classmates whose diverse backgrounds helped me understand those works.

The cynic in me has to acknowledge that my undergrad gpa on my med school app was higher because of the students who wouldn't have been admitted to my UC campus if not for AA, because on the aggregate they held down the opposite tail of the curve. But I don't think that's what they mean by "educational benefits of diversity."

There may well be societal benefits to AA, in that some members of marginalized groups were given a boost at the expense of people who were probably going to be successful anyway. But that's a separate issue. Maybe that benefit even justifies AA in its entirety. But AA has always been sold to us as equal parts "fairness" and by touting the "educational benefits of diversity" and I do find it somewhat ironic those bits of ... let's just call them misdirection, because "lie" is maybe too strong a word ... those bits of misdirection turned out to be the reason SCOTUS finally killed it.

If they'd just argued that marginalized groups deserved some level of compensation to help them catch up, that might've withstood strict scrutiny better.

3. Religion- We should allow religious accommodations whenever possible.

Meh. Whatever. So long as tax-exempt churches are overtly engaging in political activities, which is pretty much every single evangelical Christian congregation between Mexico and Canada, I'm relatively unsympathetic to their claims of "oppression" ...

But regardless, the question at hand shouldn't be a religious one. It should be: is a person discriminating against a person in a protected class?

The reason shouldn't matter. If you refuse service to a _____ person because that person is _____, and _____ is a legally protected class, it shouldn't matter if you're doing so because of religious beliefs or because you're just a jerk. Fill in the blank with any protected class: black, female, Christian, gay ... you know the list.
 
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The foolish ones think so, but most Dems don't hate winning elections that much.

It's a good thing for your side that cooler heads have prevailed.
Life’s not all about winning elections. I prefer people doing the right thing (my side).


Again, let’s be adults in that we can argue and disagree but really what’s up with the spite… “foolish?”

“The Supreme Court is a cesspool of corruption devastating our communities. Because of the decisions made by an unethical and illegitimate majority, my constituents are unable to access abortion care, have weaker labor protections, are more vulnerable to voter suppression, and are subjected to a racist legal system,” said Representative Bush. “As lawmakers, we have a mandate to ensure our rights are not stripped away by bought-and-paid-for judges trying to implement a fascist agenda. I’m proud to lead on the reintroduction of the Judiciary Act, which would expand the Court and help us reclaim our democracy once and for all.”

Here’s to all the “fools”

A new coalition called Just Majority, with nearly 40 partner organizations, is supporting expansion to restore a fair and ethical Court. Just Majority’s partners include: All* Above All Action Fund; Alliance for Justice; America's Voice; American Atheists; American Constitution Society; American Humanist Association; Black Voters Matter; Center for Popular Democracy Action; Color of Change; Community Justice Action Fund; Demand Justice; Demos; End Citizens United // Let America Vote Action Fund; Freedom From Religion Foundation; Greenpeace USA; Guns Down America; Indivisible; Justice Democrats; Latino Victory Project; League of Conservation Voters; March for Our Lives Action Fund; MoveOn; NARAL Pro-Choice America; National Asian Pacific American Women's Forum; Newtown Action Alliance; People for the American Way; People's Parity Project; Public Justice; Reproaction; Rise; Stand Up America; Take Back the Court Action Fund; Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence; This Is Our Lane; Ultraviolet Action; Voto Latino; We Testify; and Women's March. Additionally, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Public Citizen and the Sunrise Movement support the Judiciary Act of 2023.
 
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I am pleased with the rulings from Scotus this year. I think they followed the law as written and made the correct decisions:

1. Student Loan Forgiveness- Correct decision. HEROES Act was never intended to be used for all students.

2. Affirmative Action- The US constitution forbids discrimination based on race. We can't allow our schools, colleges and businesses to use race as a factor in hiring, promotions or admissions. Now, "the content of our character" becomes law.

3. Religion- We should allow religious accommodations whenever possible.
So are the religious accommodations in your opinion for all religions? or just those that you like?
I mean since you are such a religious rights advocate you must agree that Muslims should be allowed to take 5 break for their 5 prayers everyday?
And they should have a pork free menu at the cafeteria and be allowed to observe their religious holidays? I am sure that wouldn't bother you would it?
 
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Life’s not all about winning elections. I prefer people doing the right thing (my side).

You can't do anything at all if you lose elections.

Again, let’s be adults in that we can argue and disagree but really what’s up with the spite… “foolish?”

No spite, I just think it would be an objectively counterproductive thing to do, i.e. foolish.

Speaking of spite ...

“The Supreme Court is a cesspool of corruption devastating our communities. Because of the decisions made by an unethical and illegitimate majority, my constituents are unable to access abortion care, have weaker labor protections, are more vulnerable to voter suppression, and are subjected to a racist legal system,” said Representative Bush. “As lawmakers, we have a mandate to ensure our rights are not stripped away by bought-and-paid-for judges trying to implement a fascist agenda. I’m proud to lead on the reintroduction of the Judiciary Act, which would expand the Court and help us reclaim our democracy once and for all.”

... yeah, good luck with that foolishness.

Here’s to all the “fools”

A new coalition called Just Majority, with nearly 40 partner organizations, is supporting expansion to restore a fair and ethical Court. Just Majority’s partners include: All* Above All Action Fund; Alliance for Justice; America's Voice; American Atheists; American Constitution Society; American Humanist Association; Black Voters Matter; Center for Popular Democracy Action; Color of Change; Community Justice Action Fund; Demand Justice; Demos; End Citizens United // Let America Vote Action Fund; Freedom From Religion Foundation; Greenpeace USA; Guns Down America; Indivisible; Justice Democrats; Latino Victory Project; League of Conservation Voters; March for Our Lives Action Fund; MoveOn; NARAL Pro-Choice America; National Asian Pacific American Women's Forum; Newtown Action Alliance; People for the American Way; People's Parity Project; Public Justice; Reproaction; Rise; Stand Up America; Take Back the Court Action Fund; Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence; This Is Our Lane; Ultraviolet Action; Voto Latino; We Testify; and Women's March. Additionally, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Public Citizen and the Sunrise Movement support the Judiciary Act of 2023.

I'm actually sympathetic to some of those organizations.

Many I don't recognize at all, even as a rather interested and politically engaged person, so I'll leave that as a weight on the scale of whether their endorsement of this act matters.

Some I do recognize and regard as both idiots and fools.

At least one has a name that suggest I'd wholeheartedly support them (End Citizens United).

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate by pasting a list of partisan organizations that thought it was worthwhile to publicly agree with this idea. That a really big chunk of the left can't help but behave in counterproductive, foolish ways?

Don't forget that the guy in the Oval Office right now didn't get there by endorsing this kind of foolishness. (Can you imagine if Biden rattled off that passage by Rep Bush as part of his re-election campaign?) In 2020 you could've run Bernie or one of a few more ideologically pure people who care more about doing the "right thing" than winning elections, and Trump would be halfway through his second term and the seat held by Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson would have someone the Federalist Society approves of. Careful what you wish for.
 
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Courts hitting Biden at multiple levels today. Almost a theme, like you have to use the system, and can’t just force an agenda on the people through arbitrary rules and executive orders.

IMG_4199.jpeg
 
So are the religious accommodations in your opinion for all religions? or just those that you like?
I mean since you are such a religious rights advocate you must agree that Muslims should be allowed to take 5 break for their 5 prayers everyday?
And they should have a pork free menu at the cafeteria and be allowed to observe their religious holidays? I am sure that wouldn't bother you would it?
Muslims are allowed to pray at work

But there is a “reasonable accommodation” that can be made and certain occupations are exempt if they cannot provide reasonable accommodation and still be within the law.

Healthcare is one of those exempt depending on specific needs. An anesthesiologist with high acuity case and only doc on call is exempt from the reasonable accommodation rules. So requires to work and miss their daily prayer.

And it’s not just Muslims. The 7th day Adventist aren’t suppose to work either on Saturday. Yet healthcare is exempt from their religion in terms of work as well. I was sorta of joking with 7th day Adventist when I worked in California as he booked 5 urology cases. He said they were urgent cases and he’s exempt. So able to work. So I told him the benjamains trump any religious rules.
 
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Most of these decisions by SCOTUS are absolutely the correct ones. Just because some liberals are dismayed and saying this is “immoral” doesn’t make it so.

1. AA - a clear rubuke of reverse racism. As Roberts noted in his majority decision, being black in the fourth lowest academic decile (ie worse grades/scores than 60% of all students applying) gave you a better chance of admission to Harvard than being Asian in the top decile (top 10% grades/scores of applicants). Think about that for a moment.

2. Loan forgiveness -Biden’s plan was a clear overstep of separation of powers, not to mention a terrible idea. A new half trillion dollars taxpayer liability (not to mention income redistribution) needs CLEAR and express approval by congress.

3. Offering creative services to anyone - this one is more nuanced and a bit contrived. I agree the way it made it to SCOTUS was suspect. There is a spectrum of possible discrimination within business transactions. Clearly you can’t deny selling a burrito to someone because they are gay/lesbian, obese or asian. On the other hand, a 1 person business that specializes in baking cakes for catholic weddings or designing church websites shouldn’t be forced to do a LGBT-themed one if they don’t want to. I do think they should have to advertise what they do/ don’t do - so that prospective customers know who to approach and not.

4. Abortion rights- I don’t feel too strongly either way about this one. Overall, I would have rather had them let roe vs wade stand though.
 
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You can't do anything at all if you lose elections.



No spite, I just think it would be an objectively counterproductive thing to do, i.e. foolish.

Speaking of spite ...



... yeah, good luck with that foolishness.



I'm actually sympathetic to some of those organizations.

Many I don't recognize at all, even as a rather interested and politically engaged person, so I'll leave that as a weight on the scale of whether their endorsement of this act matters.

Some I do recognize and regard as both idiots and fools.

At least one has a name that suggest I'd wholeheartedly support them (End Citizens United).

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate by pasting a list of partisan organizations that thought it was worthwhile to publicly agree with this idea. That a really big chunk of the left can't help but behave in counterproductive, foolish ways?

Don't forget that the guy in the Oval Office right now didn't get there by endorsing this kind of foolishness. (Can you imagine if Biden rattled off that passage by Rep Bush as part of his re-election campaign?) In 2020 you could've run Bernie or one of a few more ideologically pure people who care more about doing the "right thing" than winning elections, and Trump would be halfway through his second term and the seat held by Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson would have someone the Federalist Society approves of. Careful what you wish for.
I honestly appreciate your response.

I voted more against Trump then for Biden because he was the better option but not the best. Maybe I was a fool for believing the Dems would do more with the house, senate and presidency then they did and now we’re seeing the consequences of inaction.

If that means they continue winning elections with laws that go against the majority of the people they represent, I’m not sure it’s worth having “won” in my opinion.
 
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I honestly appreciate your response.

I voted more against Trump then for Biden because he was the better option but not the best. Maybe I was a fool for believing the Dems would do more with the house, senate and presidency then they did and now we’re seeing the consequences of inaction.

If that means they continue winning elections with laws that go against the majority of the people they represent, I’m not sure it’s worth it in my opinion.

That’s the thing. Someone who wholeheartedly endorsed these ideas and campaigned on them can’t win the nomination much less the general. Most Americans don’t agree with using race in admissions or loan forgiveness Bernie-style. And a democrat who campaigns on those things won’t win- which is why we ended up with Biden.
 
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Dems should have expanded the court when they had the chance.

This is exactly why the Republican traitors allowed a traitor to be elected… they probably knew he would be a one term pres but he cemented 40 years of anti-women, anti-minority, anti-LGBT, anti-worker legacies
 
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Courts hitting Biden at multiple levels today. Almost a theme, like you have to use the system, and can’t just force an agenda on the people through arbitrary rules and executive orders.

View attachment 373706

Tell that to the Republicans and all the PPP loans they forgave…. MANY of them held by Republicans

Its easy to say use the system, when its DESIGNED to favour one segment over others
 
So are the religious accommodations in your opinion for all religions? or just those that you like?
I mean since you are such a religious rights advocate you must agree that Muslims should be allowed to take 5 break for their 5 prayers everyday?
And they should have a pork free menu at the cafeteria and be allowed to observe their religious holidays? I am sure that wouldn't bother you would it?

I think all loan holders are gay & therefore I am allowed to discriminate against them, and not do business with them… hence will not pay them 🤔
 
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2. Loan forgiveness -Biden’s plan was a clear overstep of separation of powers, not to mention a terrible idea. A new half trillion dollars taxpayer liability (not to mention income redistribution) needs CLEAR and express approval by congress.

Here's a question for you. Should it be alright for the Supreme Court to abandon judicial precedent surrounding issues of standing in order to correct what they perceive to be an "overstep of the separation of powers"?

If you accept that SCOTUS is just as political a branch as the other two, then you're just cheering on your preferred policy positions. Which is fine. But I hope we can agree that as a country we need to abandon the idea that the Supreme Court just "calls balls and strikes" as John Roberts put it.
 
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Here's a question for you. Should it be alright for the Supreme Court to abandon judicial precedent surrounding issues of standing in order to correct what they perceive to be an "overstep of the separation of powers"?

If you accept that SCOTUS is just as political a branch as the other two, then you're just cheering on your preferred policy positions. Which is fine. But I hope we can agree that as a country we need to abandon the idea that the Supreme Court just "calls balls and strikes" as John Roberts put it.

I’m certainly not a legal scholar or lawyer so please explain which precedent and issue of standing relates to loan forgiveness. I would think precedent is not absolute and nuance would dictate how it’s applied to the current case considered.

I don’t think scotus is purely political. Obviously, each justice’s interpretation of the law is colored by their political beliefs (and clearly the court has shifted to more conservative views) but they aren’t just bending totally to fit a political party like most of congress. Case in point they decided against the right-wing independent legislative doctrine case. Shot down trump multiple times in his own legal appeals to scotus etc.
 
I’m certainly not a legal scholar or lawyer so please explain which precedent and issue of standing relates to loan forgiveness. I would think precedent is not absolute and nuance would dictate how it’s applied to the current case considered.

I don’t think scotus is purely political. Obviously, each justice’s interpretation of the law is colored by their political beliefs (and clearly the court has shifted to more conservative views) but they aren’t just bending totally to fit a political party like most of congress. Case in point they decided against the right-wing independent legislative doctrine case. Shot down trump multiple times in his own legal appeals to scotus etc.

You can see my previous posts above. Or read Kagan's dissent here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/22-506_nmip.pdf

The majority opinion opines on the issue of standing on page 2 but doesn't seriously contend with any of Kagan's points made in her dissent starting on page 48.

To briefly summarize again:
Missouri is the plaintiff in this case. The plaintiff in this case has not suffered a material injury. MOHELA, an organization created by the State of Missouri (which Missouri's own Supreme Court has recognized as a legally separate entity from Missouri) has suffered a potential injury through the loan forgiveness program. This injury won't impact the State of Missouri at all because the finances of MOHELA are completely separate from the State of Missouri - they are a completely separate corporate entity, which is the purpose of corporations - to reduce financial liability.

If we grant that Missouri and MOHELA are two separate legal entities, then longstanding precedent prevents courts from allowing Missouri to be the plaintiff here because the only party that would actually have standing would be MOHELA (assuming they actually suffered damages).

This is the court ignoring their own long established precedent to achieve a political end.

To address your other points:
I would argue that the Court's political ends don't evenly line up with ALL other conservative political ends. You speculate that the Court must be somewhat apolitical if they ruled against the Trump administration and Independent State Legislature theory. I would argue that both ISL and Trump are somewhat outside of mainstream establishment Conservative circles and political goals so it isn't crazy to think their ends wouldn't perfectly align. The Never-Trump movement within the Republican party is mostly establishment Republicans, the exact kind of people who sit on SCOTUS today.

Shutting down student loan forgiveness is a much more solidly establishment Republican political end. As is shutting down affirmative action. As is gutting the voting rights act. As is limiting the scope of the Violence Against Women Act. As is striking down abortion rights. As is ruling it's ok to discriminate against LGBT people, etc...

To play devil's advocate though, this Court did put out Obergefell. It is rather ominous though that Obergefell was not mentioned ONCE by the majority in the recent case permitting discrimination of LGBT people despite being the most recent foray the court made into discussions of those protected classes. The pessimist in me reads that as hinting that Obergefell (despite being less than a decade old) may not be as safe as we had hoped. There's a very real chance it will be chipped away by this court.
 
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I’m certainly not a legal scholar or lawyer so please explain which precedent and issue of standing relates to loan forgiveness. I would think precedent is not absolute and nuance would dictate how it’s applied to the current case considered.

I don’t think scotus is purely political. Obviously, each justice’s interpretation of the law is colored by their political beliefs (and clearly the court has shifted to more conservative views) but they aren’t just bending totally to fit a political party like most of congress. Case in point they decided against the right-wing independent legislative doctrine case. Shot down trump multiple times in his own legal appeals to scotus etc.


Just because they didn’t toe the party line for a few of the most egregious issues does not mean they are not totally in cahoots.

Kavanaugh had 200K CC loan and an expensive club membership paid off
Thomas just got outed for all the **** he did but he IS the “house N” as MLK called them so….
Barrett is in a seat that was denied to Garland by McConnell only to then appoint her after millions had already cast their votes for POTUS

As always, the Republican are the epitome of hypocrisy, bending and usually straight up breaking laws, denying people as many of their rights as they can… but as long as they keep their (mostly) White base happy (and continue to obstruct voting rights) they will continue to “win”
 
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You can see my previous posts above. Or read Kagan's dissent here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/22-506_nmip.pdf

The majority opinion opines on the issue of standing on page 2 but doesn't seriously contend with any of Kagan's points made in her dissent starting on page 48.

To briefly summarize again:
Missouri is the plaintiff in this case. The plaintiff in this case has not suffered a material injury. MOHELA, an organization created by the State of Missouri (which Missouri's own Supreme Court has recognized as a legally separate entity from Missouri) has suffered a potential injury through the loan forgiveness program. This injury won't impact the State of Missouri at all because the finances of MOHELA are completely separate from the State of Missouri - they are a completely separate corporate entity, which is the purpose of corporations - to reduce financial liability.

If we grant that Missouri and MOHELA are two separate legal entities, then longstanding precedent prevents courts from allowing Missouri to be the plaintiff here because the only party that would actually have standing would be MOHELA (assuming they actually suffered damages).

This is the court ignoring their own long established precedent to achieve a political end.

To address your other points:
I would argue that the Court's political ends don't evenly line up with ALL other conservative political ends. You speculate that the Court must be somewhat apolitical if they ruled against the Trump administration and Independent State Legislature theory. I would argue that both ISL and Trump are somewhat outside of mainstream establishment Conservative circles and political goals so it isn't crazy to think their ends wouldn't perfectly align. The Never-Trump movement within the Republican party is mostly establishment Republicans, the exact kind of people who sit on SCOTUS today.

Shutting down student loan forgiveness is a much more solidly establishment Republican political end. As is shutting down affirmative action. As is gutting the voting rights act. As is limiting the scope of the Violence Against Women Act. As is striking down abortion rights. As is ruling it's ok to discriminate against LGBT people, etc...

To play devil's advocate though, this Court did put out Obergefell. It is rather ominous though that Obergefell was not mentioned ONCE in the recent case permitting discrimination of LGBT people despite being the most recent foray the court made into discussions of those protected classes. The pessimist in me reads that as hinting that Obergefell (despite being less than a decade old) may not be as safe as we had hoped. There's a very real chance it will be chipped away by this court.

This is why the “Bernie or bust” movement was so harmful…

RBG should have retired during Obama but her ego and anti-Hillary stupidity to the point of not voting (or worse voting for Trump) got us in this mess.
 

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This is why the “Bernie or bust” movement was so harmful…

RBG should have retired during Obama but her ego and anti-Hillary stupidity to the point of not voting (or worse voting for Trump) got us in this mess.

Stephen Breyer learned from her mistake at least, and now we have the best Justice since Thurgood Marshall in KBJ.
 
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To briefly summarize again:
Missouri is the plaintiff in this case. The plaintiff in this case has not suffered a material injury. MOHELA, an organization created by the State of Missouri (which Missouri's own Supreme Court has recognized as a legally separate entity from Missouri) has suffered a potential injury through the loan forgiveness program. This injury won't impact the State of Missouri at all because the finances of MOHELA are completely separate from the State of Missouri - they are a completely separate corporate entity, which is the purpose of corporations - to reduce financial liability.

If we grant that Missouri and MOHELA are two separate legal entities, then longstanding precedent prevents courts from allowing Missouri to be the plaintiff here because the only party that would actually have standing would be MOHELA (assuming they actually suffered damages).

This is the court ignoring their own long established precedent to achieve a political end.

Seems like you know more about the legal technicalities than I do so perhaps this is right? Since I don’t think like a lawyer though, why would they bring the case this particular way then if it’s as clearcut as you say (I assume they have smart legal minds working on this)?

Clearly there are injured parties in the issue at hand - ie all the taxpayers that need to foot the bill for the loans forgiven, those that worked and paid their loans and don’t get the benefit of forgiveness etc.
 
Seems like you know more about the legal technicalities than I do so perhaps this is right? Since I don’t think like a lawyer though, why would they bring the case this particular way then if it’s as clearcut as you say (I assume they have smart legal minds working on this)?

Clearly there are injured parties in the issue at hand - ie all the taxpayers that need to foot the bill for the loans forgiven, those that worked and paid their loans and don’t get the benefit of forgiveness etc.

Ok. That is a GREAT question. Part of the problem is that the Biden administration ITSELF is partially responsible because they ASKED SCOTUS to take up the case at such an early date. This article is dated Nov 2022: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/18/politics/student-debt-relief-supreme-court/index.html

Presumably, those in the Biden administration didn't think SCOTUS would go this far. The issue at the time was that the 5th circuit had issued a nationwide injunction against the program (themselves ignoring standing issues IMO) and the Biden administration believed SCOTUS would see through this idiocy and side with long established precedent. This is probably the biggest reason Biden today described the Court as "not a normal court", the harshest criticism he has levelled yet lol.

To address your last point:
The standing precedent makes sense and it's a mistake to ignore it. If all taxpayers could be considered injured parties simply by virtue of being taxpayers... I think you could see why that would be bad policy if you just thought about it a little more.
 
I noticed blade was notably silent about these :

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Glad to see that a conservative SCOTUS was at least able to prevent overtly racist deep South redistricting efforts from proceeding.
 
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Tell that to the Republicans and all the PPP loans they forgave…. MANY of them held by Republicans

Its easy to say use the system, when its DESIGNED to favour one segment over others
Settng aside the issue of whether the PPP loans or their forgiveness were good ideas -

I know you're not oblivious to the simple fact that Congress specifically passed an act authorizing both the PPP loans and their forgiveness, in contrast to the student loan forgiveness plan. So your efforts to paint the two as the same is, as usual, more of your deliberate misrepresentation and misdirection.
 
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Ok. That is a GREAT question. Part of the problem is that the Biden administration ITSELF is partially responsible because they ASKED SCOTUS to take up the case at such an early date. This article is dated Nov 2022: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/18/politics/student-debt-relief-supreme-court/index.html

Presumably, those in the Biden administration didn't think SCOTUS would go this far. The issue at the time was that the 5th circuit had issued a nationwide injunction against the program (themselves ignoring standing issues IMO) and the Biden administration believed SCOTUS would see through this idiocy and side with long established precedent. This is probably the biggest reason Biden today described the Court as "not a normal court", the harshest criticism he has levelled yet lol.

To address your last point:
The standing precedent makes sense and it's a mistake to ignore it. If all taxpayers could be considered injured parties simply by virtue of being taxpayers... I think you could see why that would be bad policy if you just thought about it a little more.

Sure -the general taxpayer as the injured party is a problem I realize.

How about a random dude who worked 10 years and decided to suddenly spend his life savings to pay all his loans off as a lump sum right before the executive directive went into effect? I’m sure the republicans could find a few of these “injured parties.” Even more creative would be a hypothetical guy who decided to go to the military expressly in order to have loans forgiven but was killed in action after not being included in the group for immediate forgiveness.

It just seems to me as a layman the issue is a technicality at best, and as you said- incompetence by the plaintiff at worst. Something that doesn’t change the main issue of separation of powers.
 
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Sure -the taxpayer as the injured party is a problem I realize.

How about a random dude who worked 10 years and decided to suddenly spend his life savings to pay all his loans off as a lump sum right before the executive directive went into effect? I’m sure the republicans could find a few of these “injured parties.” Even more creative would be a guy who decided to go to the military expressly in order to have loans forgiven but was killed in action.
So we should never ever make any changes to the law since it may impact certain people? Is that what you’re saying?

I can see children of former slave owners pissed off that they can’t have access to free workers.
 
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Sure -the taxpayer as the injured party is a problem I realize.

How about a random dude who worked 10 years and decided to suddenly spend his life savings to pay all his loans off as a lump sum right before the executive directive went into effect? I’m sure the republicans could find a few of these “injured parties.” Even more creative would be a guy who decided to go to the military expressly in order to have loans forgiven but was killed in action.
There's a long list of injured parties, including people like me, who avoided loans by agreeing to military service, and who paid cash for their kids' tuition instead of having them take loans with the hope of forgiveness.

And every parent who saved money for their kid's college bills, instead of funding their own 401(k). Vacations foregone to save. Students who chose work study over loans. Students who chose cheaper/lesser schools or even community colleges instead of taking out loans.

People who didn't go to college at all, to avoid loans, and therefore ended up in careers with lower lifetime earnings.

And let's not forget that there is no actual student loan crisis - it could be solved easily with two simple and fair steps:
1) reduce interest rates to something near the federal rate
2) make the debt dischargeable in bankruptcy


Anyway - the standing issue glossed over by the majority opinion bothers me, but for this specific case, I'm in total agreement that the nation is chock full of injured parties who deserved to have this case heard by SCOTUS and decided this way.
 
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So we should never ever make any changes to the law since it may impact certain people? Is that what you’re saying?

I can see children of former slave owners pissed off that they can’t have access to free workers.
I don't see you you can possibly miss the point so completely.

The entire issue here is that the law WASN'T changed - this was unilateral executive action and clear overreach.

If Congress had passed a law forgiving this debt I'd have opposed it, and possibly altered my future votes, but I wouldn't object to it being illegal. And SCOTUS wouldn't have struck it down.
 
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Gotta keep your donors who fund your expensive vacations happy, right ??
 
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I don't see you you can possibly miss the point so completely.

The entire issue here is that the law WASN'T changed - this was unilateral executive action and clear overreach.

If Congress had passed a law forgiving this debt I'd have opposed it, and possibly altered my future votes, but I wouldn't object to it being illegal. And SCOTUS wouldn't have struck it down.
All that you’re saying is that you agree with the current judges. If Biden had a less conservative Supreme Court, this could have easily passed. Let’s not pretend the Supreme Court is unbiased and non-political.
 
Sure -the general taxpayer as the injured party is a problem I realize.

How about a random dude who worked 10 years and decided to suddenly spend his life savings to pay all his loans off as a lump sum right before the executive directive went into effect? I’m sure the republicans could find a few of these “injured parties.” Even more creative would be a hypothetical guy who decided to go to the military expressly in order to have loans forgiven but was killed in action after not being included in the group for immediate forgiveness.

It just seems to me as a layman the issue is a technicality at best, and as you said- incompetence by the plaintiff at worst. Something that doesn’t change the main issue of separation of powers.

Those are all perfectly fine political arguments you can use and will help us guide our decisions in choosing our elected representatives.

Courts, ideally, shouldn't be in the business of doing politics or making political arguments.

Courts, ideally, should follow precedent and established rules of law as far as they will allow.

Rules of standing are pretty bed rock foundational principles of the rule of law. The precedent here is VERY clear and IMO there is very little room for interpretation that Missouri should not have been granted standing.

Courts, ideally, should be VERY interested in following technicalities shouldn't they? If we want our judicial system to be as apolitical as possible, then equal application of the law should be a no brainer.

To simplify the problem at hand of allowing third parties equal status to the plaintiff:%

It's as if I loaned you $5, then you lost your job and were unable to pay me, so I sue your former employer for lost income. In this case, I'm the third party. Normally I wouldn't have standing in this scenario to sue, but this Supreme Court decision is an exception to that.

I hope that makes my position clear and why rules of standing are important.

To quote Kagan: "a plaintiff cannot ride on someone else's injury"
 
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There's a long list of injured parties, including people like me, who avoided loans by agreeing to military service, and who paid cash for their kids' tuition instead of having them take loans with the hope of forgiveness.

And every parent who saved money for their kid's college bills, instead of funding their own 401(k). Vacationed foregone to save. Students who chose work study over loans. Students who chose cheaper/lesser schools or even community colleges instead of taking out loans.

People who didn't go to college at all, to avoid loans, and therefore ended up in careers with lower lifetime earnings.

These are aggrieved parties. They are not injured parties.

You have not been injured by the student loan forgiveness plan. You have a political grievance. You, and everyone else you listed, would not have been made one cent poorer by the student loan forgiveness plan.

This is why the standing issue is so important, and I'm glad that it bothers you at least.

I can't sue the government over their decision to buy Raytheon missiles because I think it's a poor use of taxpayer money. Now if a Raytheon missile hit my house or a bus I was in, I just might have a colorable claim. Not sure with this court though... /s
 
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You can see my previous posts above. Or read Kagan's dissent here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/22-506_nmip.pdf

The majority opinion opines on the issue of standing on page 2 but doesn't seriously contend with any of Kagan's points made in her dissent starting on page 48.

To briefly summarize again:
Missouri is the plaintiff in this case. The plaintiff in this case has not suffered a material injury. MOHELA, an organization created by the State of Missouri (which Missouri's own Supreme Court has recognized as a legally separate entity from Missouri) has suffered a potential injury through the loan forgiveness program. This injury won't impact the State of Missouri at all because the finances of MOHELA are completely separate from the State of Missouri - they are a completely separate corporate entity, which is the purpose of corporations - to reduce financial liability.

If we grant that Missouri and MOHELA are two separate legal entities, then longstanding precedent prevents courts from allowing Missouri to be the plaintiff here because the only party that would actually have standing would be MOHELA (assuming they actually suffered damages).
This is the court ignoring their own long established precedent to achieve a political end.
I don't think it can be overemphasized how perverse the standing issue is. At the end of the day I don't care tremendously about the student loan decision one way or another, but I find the weaselly way in which Missouri got standing to be horrendous and probably the most newsworthy aspect of the whole case. It really does speak to the degree of just how activist the current court is despite their claims to the contrary.


To play devil's advocate though, this Court did put out Obergefell. It is rather ominous though that Obergefell was not mentioned ONCE by the majority in the recent case permitting discrimination of LGBT people despite being the most recent foray the court made into discussions of those protected classes. The pessimist in me reads that as hinting that Obergefell (despite being less than a decade old) may not be as safe as we had hoped. There's a very real chance it will be chipped away by this court.

-Precedent agrees with my pre-existing beliefs? I respect stare decisis


-Precedent conflicts with my pre-existing beliefs? The original decision was wrong and I have an obligation to correct it
 
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I don't think it can be overemphasized how perverse the standing issue is. At the end of the day I don't care tremendously about the student loan decision one way or another, but I find the weaselly way in which Missouri got standing to be horrendous and probably the most newsworthy aspect of the whole case. It really does speak to the degree of just how activist the current court is despite their claims to the contrary.




-Precedent agrees with my pre-existing beliefs? I respect stare decisis


-Precedent conflicts with my pre-existing beliefs? The original decision was wrong and I have an obligation to correct it

Haha, the thing is, there can be good reasons that can be used when you do actually want to overturn precedent! (Which this court claims it's not doing in this case.)

I can't remember which case(s) spelled them out, but they essentially are:

Workability - how easily can lower courts follow the precedent as intended

Changing facts

Quality of Reasoning - was the precedent dumb

Inconsistency with related decisions - have we gradually chipped away at a precedent long enough so that we can finally get rid of it altogether

And the big one - Reliance interests.

If the general public relies heavily on an existing precedent, then often the court will let bad precedent stand because it serves a broader public interest.

Each justice believes in stare decisis to varying degrees. Thomas barely acknowledges it as a coherent concept.

For example, Alito addressed each of these in his Dobbs decision overturning Casey and Roe. I think his arguments on Workability there were relatively strong, but his reliance arguments were pretty weak.
 
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All that you’re saying is that you agree with the current judges. If Biden had a less conservative Supreme Court, this could have easily passed. Let’s not pretend the Supreme Court is unbiased and non-political.
Again, probably not a great plan, and obviously glaringly wrong to have your entire political agenda hinge on the judgement of the Supreme Court to begin with.
 
Regardless of your views on AA, I think the bigger issue is classism.

Vast majority of the people who get accepted into Ivey league colleges or medical schools in general come from affluent background (either children of doctors or other highly educated parents). These people were trained for these roles from the day they walked.

How often do you see first generation students marching into competitive specialties? When I read profile of derm/ ortho residents, feels like half of them have done volunteering in 10 different countries or something equally impressive. But you don’t need to be Einstein to realize this can only be done with $$ help from parents.

Compare that to students who grew up in the household making minimum wage and one can easily realize how Ivey league is simply not on their radar.

Point is classism will continue. Students from affluent families will continue to go into most desirable colleges/ specialties because they received early training, had role-models to follow and had financial resources to take a time off and do things to make themselves more competitive.
 
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I presume you will have no complaint if trump is acquitted in his latest indictment on a technicality?

There's a lot of gray area in what a "technicality" could be in this case, so I'm not going to say I would 100% agree. There is plenty of room for valid legal interpretation wrt many of the things Trump is accused of. Could you give me an example to work with?

I think the issue of standing in Biden v Nebraska is a far cry from being a "technicality". Kagan devoted half of her dissent to addressing it.

If you think I'm being obtuse, then you should have no problem actually defending the majority's decision here as a coherent legal precedent going forward.
 
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Regardless of your views on AA, I think the bigger issue is classism.

Vast majority of the people who get accepted into Ivey league colleges or medical schools in general come from affluent background (either children of doctors or other highly educated parents). These people were trained for these roles from the day they walked.

How often do you see first generation students marching into competitive specialties? When I read profile of derm/ ortho residents, feels like half of them have done volunteering in 10 different countries or something equally impressive. But you don’t need to be Einstein to realize this can only be done with $$ help from parents.

Compare that to students who grew up in the household making minimum wage and one can easily realize how Ivey league is simply not on their radar.

Point is classism will continue. Students from affluent families will continue to go into most desirable colleges/ specialties because they received early training, had role-models to follow and had financial resources to take a time off and do things to make themselves more competitive.
Well if you want to propose and defend a plan to give persons of low socioeconomic status help, at the expense of persons of higher socioeconomic status who'll still be fairly successful anyway, that's a policy debate we can have. I might even support it, to some degree.

But that's not what AA was, or how admissions preferences based on race were justified.
 
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