SCOTUS will increase to 11 or 13 Justices

[deleted171991]

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Read the whole letter, especially the last paragraph that vanderwerff wrote before making the claim that she was chomping at the bit to push him out over a signature

View attachment 323105

Totally passive-aggressive.

If that paragraph was sincere, why even write a letter to the editors? Why not just tell Yglesias, like a grown-up, possibly in public? Again, victim mentality from a snowflake. There was nothing wrong with Yglesias's letter, and nothing about trans people like her, just about free speech and cancellations. But, hey, a world in which the snowflakes cannot freely censor anybody who they don't like is "unsafe".

And then these people are surprised when they are told that THEY are the ones responsible for having Trump as president, and almost losing these elections, too. The right hears a story like this almost every day, beyond Trump's complaints about being censored.

 

[thinkorswim]

Biden at 306, on his way to a 6-7 million popular vote win. How Trump characterized the 2016 election in which he earned the same number of electoral votes Biden did, while losing the popular vote by 3 million to Hilary:View attachment 323104

The fact that Trump won in 2016 with 306 and 3 million fewer votes, and now Biden wins in 2020 also with 306 but 6 million more votes is just proof of how stupid our system of electing a President really is.

 

[vector2]

Totally passive-aggressive.

If that paragraph was sincere, why even write a letter to the editors? Again, victim mentality from a snowflake. There was nothing wrong with Yglesias's letter, and nothing about trans people.

I’m just sharing the letter which explicitly says her intention is exactly the opposite of what you were implying. Of course you can call her a liar and snowflake and you can read into the words whatever you want to read into them and believe whatever you want to believe. Can’t stop ya.

 

[deleted171991]

I’m just sharing the letter which explicitly says her intention is exactly the opposite of what you were implying. Of course you can call her a liar and snowflake and you can read into the words whatever you want to read into them and believe whatever you want to believe. Can’t stop ya.

Don't watch what people say, watch what they do.

It's like me sending a letter to your managers saying that I feel persecuted by your free speech, as an immigrant, but I don't want them to do anything about it, and I have no intention of harming your career. In America. Of course she's sincere, yeah, sure... 🙄

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Speaking of Vox,

The crisis isn’t Trump. It’s the Republican Party.

Anne Applebaum wrote the book on why people choose to collaborate with authoritarian regimes. So what does she think of the GOP?

www.vox.com

 

[Mad Jack]

And TOLERANCE. I have rarely seen a group of more intolerant people than the woke.

The left and the right are both intolerant of entirely different things. The right is just upset that public opinion has shifted in favor of what the left finds intolerable.

 

[deleted171991]

Speaking of Vox,

The crisis isn’t Trump. It’s the Republican Party.

Anne Applebaum wrote the book on why people choose to collaborate with authoritarian regimes. So what does she think of the GOP?

www.vox.com

I stopped reading it months ago. It used to be one of my favorite websites, then it went woke.

 

[deleted171991]

The left and the right are both intolerant of entirely different things. The right is just upset that public opinion has shifted in favor of what the left finds intolerable.

It hasn't, if you mean the radical stuff. See the elections.

The left doesn't have a monopoly on human decency and common sense. Neither side is made up only of "deplorables".

 

[vector2]

Don't watch what people say, watch what they do.

It's like me sending a letter to your managers saying that I feel persecuted by your free speech, as an immigrant, but I don't them to do anything about it, and I have no intention of harming your career. Yeah, sure.

There is actually a much longer story behind the whole melodrama. Nobody got fired or forced out. And ultimately Yglesias left of his own accord.

Vox feud erupts after editor signed letter decrying 'cancel culture'

Vox's Matthew Yglesias was among 150 journalists, academics and celebrated authors who added their names to the letter calling to defend free speech amid rampant 'cancel culture'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[deleted171991]

There is actually a much longer story behind the whole melodrama. Nobody got fired or forced out. And ultimately Yglesias left of his own accord.

Vox feud erupts after editor signed letter decrying 'cancel culture'

Vox's Matthew Yglesias was among 150 journalists, academics and celebrated authors who added their names to the letter calling to defend free speech amid rampant 'cancel culture'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I'm sure co-founders like him and Glenn Greenwald just leave, despite all the kindness surrounding them.

He got persecuted because he signed a letter also signed by JK Rowling and others the woke don't like. So what?

 

[vector2]

I'm sure co-founders like him and Glenn Greenwald just leave, despite all the kindness surrounding them.

Lol Greenwald is your example? I loved reading his writing in 2008-2014, but that guy went *way* off the rails years ago with his denialism of Russian interference in the election and his subsequent Russian sympathizing. And he left the Intercept because they refused to publish the unverifiable nonsense he wanted to write about Hunter Biden’s emails. The editors wanting journalistic verification and integrity is not an example of cancel culture, sorry.

 

[deleted171991]

Lol Greenwald is your example? I loved reading his writing in 2008-2014, but that guy went *way* off the rails years ago with his denialism of Russian interference in the election and his subsequent Russian sympathizing. And he left the Intercept because they refused to publish the unverifiable nonsense he wanted to write about Hunter Biden’s emails. The editors wanting journalistic verification and integrity is not an example of cancel culture, sorry.

I strongly doubt it's as simple as that. I have more reasons to trust his journalistic integrity than his editors'.

The man was literally censored by the organization he founded and which will mean absolutely nothing without him.

And Greenwald was just another example. I don't keep a list of them, but they keep popping up regularly. The same way the editor who made the NYT great again was forced out when he defended free speech. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[vector2]

I strongly doubt it's as simple as that. I have more reasons to trust his journalistic integrity than his editors'.

The man was literally censored by the organization he founded and which will mean absolutely nothing without him.

FFP when Yglesias leaves of his own accord: “It’s as clear as day! Vanderwerff wrote the later and then a co-founder of the publication was gone the next day! Simple as that!”

FFP when notable Russian sympathizer Greenwald is rebuked for wanting to publish Hunter Biden propaganda: “It must be more complicated! Give me the nuance!”



And if you say the organization will mean absolutely nothing without him then I am all the more convinced they had good reason to withhold its publication.

 

[deleted171991]

FFP when Yglesias leaves of his own accord: “It’s as clear as day! Vanderwerff wrote the later and then a co-founder of the publication was gone the next day! Simple as that!”

FFP when notable Russian sympathizer Greenwald is rebuked for wanting to publish Hunter Biden propaganda: “It must be more complicated! Give me the nuance!”

FFP when dealing with a troll: Ignore.

Done. I just can't take your **** on this forum anymore. You can rationalize it anyway you want. I took you off once; I doubt I will make the same mistake again, regardless how brilliant a medical professional you are.

This is not ad hominem, by the way. This is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. I can't take being lectured by obviously intolerant people about tolerance. Especially when I feel that I am dealing with somebody who thinks like a party activist.

 

[vector2]

FFP when dealing with a troll: Ignore.

Done. I just can't take your **** on this forum anymore. You can rationalize it anyway you want. I took you off once; I doubt I will make the same mistake again, regardless how brilliant a medical professional you are.

This is not ad hominem, by the way. This is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. I can't take being lectured by intolerant people about tolerance.

Intolerant is putting good faith interlocutors on ignore instead of continuing the discussion. Good luck to you.

 

[deleted171991]

Intolerant is putting good faith interlocutors on ignore instead of continuing the discussion. Good luck to you.

There is no discussion with you. It's just a veiled monologue. You're like a toddler, who keeps asking Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?. You always have to be right and have the last word. Like a troll. Enjoy playing alone, or with whoever still enjoys playing with you. I don't. Not worth it.

You can feel proud because this is the second time you convinced me to take a long break from the forum, because it's just not worth it anymore. You're not the cause I'm taking a break; you're just the tipping point, the last drop, the symptom that confirms the disease SDN shares with the country (it's not Covid-19). More and more, one can talk only in an echo chamber or in an adversarial fashion; there is less and less bipartisan mode, less and less tolerance for different thinking. Two parallel monologues that rarely intersect.

I stayed much longer than I had intended, anyway.

 

[vector2]

There is no discussion with you. It's just a veiled monologue. You're like a toddler, who keeps asking Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?. You always have to be right and have the last word. Enjoy playing alone, or with whoever still enjoys playing with you. I don't. Not worth it.

You can feel proud because this is the second time you convinced me to take a long break from the forum, because it's just not worth it anymore.

You’re not connected with reality, man. You know what “discussion” with you is like nowadays? It’s like responding to someone who is haphazardly filling out a Mad Libs with anti-leftist catchphrases. Everything is now “woke this, cancel culture that” and wild comparisons to Marxists, Maoists, Stalinists, illiberalism and on and on. I mean, good god, just earlier you were comparing people who think white privilege might be a thing with “... the Nazis and the Marxist-Communists [who] used to equal group identity with imagined evil individual behavior (see the Nazi propaganda about Jews, or the Communist one about the bourgeoisie).”

I sincerely do hope you return, but get a grip first, please.

 

[doctalaughs]

You’re asking me personally if I’ve worked in a corporation or academia? If so, you’re asking for my *** anecdote ***

But since we’re talking about feelings and perceptions and anecdotes with our buddies and not actual evidence. Yep, I sure have worked in academia. I did fellowship in nyc in 2016- I’ll never forget this big fat dude who was an ICU charge RN who had no compunction at all, in Manhattan, *during rounds*, about sharing with the group how sick he was that Hillary was gonna win (worked out well for him). Currently I work in academics in a blue city in a red state. My colleagues personally have shared every kind of liberal, libertarian, and conservative view cause at the end of the day we’re all friends. My wife told me one of her friends who is an ICU nurse manager (dem) was absolutely fatigued by the sheer number of ICU rn’s going on about how they’re voting for trump. No one’s getting canceled here.

All the cancel culture stuff? Yes, there are outlandish examples which exist. But mostly the people I see ceaselessly complaining about it are angry even whenever someone is justifiably fired for some outright bigoted behavior.

So you are denying that many large companies and organizations now require “anti-racist diversity” training now even when a good proportion of the population doesn’t believe in the premise/theory behind these teachings?

Are you denying that many professors and others in academia have been pushed out (or denied advancement) if they espouse certain views and the “woke mob” gets wind of it? That certain right wing speakers are violently prevented from free speech on campuses because people disagree with their views?

 

[deleted171991]

You’re not connected with reality, man. You know what “discussion” with you is like nowadays? It’s like responding to someone who is haphazardly filling out a Mad Libs with anti-leftist catchphrases. Everything is now “woke this, cancel culture that” and wild comparisons to Marxists, Maoists, Stalinists, illiberalism and on and on. I mean, good god, just earlier you were comparing people who think white privilege might be a thing with “... the Nazis and the Marxist-Communists [who] used to equal group identity with imagined evil individual behavior (see the Nazi propaganda about Jews, or the Communist one about the bourgeoisie).”

I sincerely do hope you return, but get a grip first, please.

Thank you for taking words out of context and putting them into whatever context is convenient for you, to paint me into some crazy white person. Yes, that's the explanation, I'm nuts; if one is not on the left, and not a deplorable, one must be crazy.

Also, thank you for your passive-aggressive superior concern. It really shows you care.

You absolutely rub me the wrong way, but my best wishes to you for the future.

@doctalaughs, of course he's denying, because he's in denial. He and many others, who worship wokeness but refuse to see all the damage it has been doing to liberal democracy.

 

[Mad Jack]

It hasn't, if you mean the radical stuff. See the elections.

The left doesn't have a monopoly on human decency and common sense. Neither side is made up only of "deplorables".

My point about public opinion is that generally people can and will be fired for things with nary a boycott or concern on the Left, be it a misstep with words or actual actions. The Right was historically not better, and are the very reason many antidiscrimination laws exist. If public opinion were to swing back their way, you can damn well bet they'd be the ones firing people for being gay, getting pregnant, or any other number of things. That's just how the pendulum works, each side will push to get away with what they can

 

[Leon'sMom]

 

[vector2]

So you are denying that many large companies and organizations now require “anti-racist diversity” training now even when a good proportion of the population doesn’t believe in the premise/theory behind these teachings?

What’s your source for “good proportion of the population doesn’t believe in the premise”? I think the evidence of how well diversity or implicit bias training works is certainly arguable, but I’m not aware of any study or poll showing that a large number of people are against the very premise of trying. Indeed, it seems incongruent that 80% of people would be in favor of racial bias training for police but be totally against it when it comes to the workplace where peoples’ livelihoods are on the line. Furthermore, my speculation is that literally all the Fortune 500 companies have such training because beyond being the right thing to do, it’s likely that it helps reduce legal problems, harassment, etc.

Are you denying that many professors and others in academia have been pushed out (or denied advancement) if they espouse certain views and the “woke mob” gets wind of it? That certain right wing speakers are violently prevented from free speech on campuses because people disagree with their views?

Nope, in my previous post I certainly said there are outlandish examples to be found, and I agree with you that professors getting reprimanded for purely academic discussions is reprehensible, but of course the particular details and circumstances matter. As for guest speakers on a campus, the details matter too. Standard Johnny Q. Republican is no problem. When it’s someone like alt right Milo who regularly solicits neo-nazi material and sings karaoke while Richard Spencer sieg heils.....he can go f himself.

 

[vector2]

Thank you for taking words out of context and putting them into whatever context is convenient for you, to paint me into some crazy white person. Yes, that's the explanation, I'm nuts; if one is not on the left, and not a deplorable, one must be crazy.

Also, thank you for your passive-aggressive superior concern. It really shows you care.

You absolutely rub me the wrong way, but my best wishes to you for the future.

@doctalaughs, of course he's denying, because he's in denial. He and many others, who worship wokeness but refuse to see all the damage it has been doing to liberal democracy.

No, it most certainly was not out of context (just like how you absurdly calling me a Marxist wasn’t some gaffe or out of context moment for you either). Those were your words verbatim when talking about all the perceived attacks and associations you think white people received in the wake of Lebron’s tweet about Arbery. My point is even if you think white people as a class received or are receiving undue criticism of their privilege or are receiving undue blame because of what those two racist rednecks did to Arbery, *that is still not in the same universe let alone the same league as how the Nazis treated Jews as a class or how the Communists treated the bourgeoisie* , and not only does it make you sound crazy when you make analogies suggesting otherwise but it’s also pretty insulting.

 

[vector2]

In case you were wondering if the glaring disconnect in America is real

 

[Lawpy]

Court packing unlikely to happen

 

[doctalaughs]

What’s your source for “good proportion of the population doesn’t believe in the premise”? I think the evidence of how well diversity or implicit bias training works is certainly arguable, but I’m not aware of any study or poll showing that a large number of people are against the very premise of trying. Indeed, it seems incongruent that 80% of people would be in favor of racial bias training for police but be totally against it when it comes to the workplace where peoples’ livelihoods are on the line. Furthermore, my speculation is that literally all the Fortune 500 companies have such training because beyond being the right thing to do, it’s likely that it helps reduce legal problems, harassment, etc.



Nope, in my previous post I certainly said there are outlandish examples to be found, and I agree with you that professors getting reprimanded for purely academic discussions is reprehensible, but of course the particular details and circumstances matter. As for guest speakers on a campus, the details matter too. Standard Johnny Q. Republican is no problem. When it’s someone like alt right Milo who regularly solicits neo-nazi material and sings karaoke while Richard Spencer sieg heils.....he can go f himself.

I can find polls if you really want - but the bottom line is that no one is against “diversity” training if it’s simply to reinforce the laws that you cannot discriminate in hiring and the workplace. However, BOTH large companies and the federal government have bent that “diversity training” in include critical race theory, “anti racist” propaganda etc.

Read an excerpt from WSJ article below and open your eyes how intolerant this BS is.

Redirect Notice

The examples are instructive. At a series of eventsat the Treasury Department and federal financial agencies, diversity trainer Howard Rosstaughtemployees that America was “built on the backs of people who were enslaved” and that all white Americans are complicit in a system of white supremacy “by automatic response to the ways we’re taught.”

In accompanying documents, Mr. Ross argues that whites share an inborn oppressive streak. “Whiteness,” employees are told, “includes white privilege and white supremacy.” Consequently, whites “struggle to own their racism.” He instructs managers to conduct “listening sessions” in which black employees can speak about their experience and be “seen in their pain,” while white employees are instructed to “sit in the discomfort” and not “fill the silence with your own thoughts and feelings.” Members of “the group you’re allying with,” Mr. Ross says, are not “obligated to like you, thank you, feel sorry for you, or forgive you.” For training like this, Mr. Ross and his firm have been paid $5 million over 15 years, according to federal disclosures

 

[DarkHorizon]

I can find polls if you really want - but the bottom line is that no one is against “diversity” training if it’s simply to reinforce the laws that you cannot discriminate in hiring and the workplace. However, BOTH large companies and the federal government have bent that “diversity training” in include critical race theory, “anti racist” propaganda etc.

Read an excerpt from WSJ article below and open your eyes how intolerant this BS is.

Redirect Notice

The examples are instructive. At a series of eventsat the Treasury Department and federal financial agencies, diversity trainer Howard Rosstaughtemployees that America was “built on the backs of people who were enslaved” and that all white Americans are complicit in a system of white supremacy “by automatic response to the ways we’re taught.”

In accompanying documents, Mr. Ross argues that whites share an inborn oppressive streak. “Whiteness,” employees are told, “includes white privilege and white supremacy.” Consequently, whites “struggle to own their racism.” He instructs managers to conduct “listening sessions” in which black employees can speak about their experience and be “seen in their pain,” while white employees are instructed to “sit in the discomfort” and not “fill the silence with your own thoughts and feelings.” Members of “the group you’re allying with,” Mr. Ross says, are not “obligated to like you, thank you, feel sorry for you, or forgive you.” For training like this, Mr. Ross and his firm have been paid $5 million over 15 years, according to federal disclosures

That’s too much wokeness for me, even as a brown guy. Sounds like mental illness.

 

[doctalaughs]

That’s too much wokeness for me, even as a brown guy. Sounds like mental illness.

I’m brown too. If this stuff is literally being mandated in federal agencies then no one can say it’s not been pushed way too far.

Maybe this is why the left is having a seizure trying to explain why Trump* actually increased his black/brown voter proportion from 2016?

* disclaimer I voted against him for other reasons, but if he actually was well spoken against this BS without showing himself be a total liar and d-bag, he’d actually be right.

 

[vector2]

I can find polls if you really want

Please.

Read an excerpt from WSJ article below and open your eyes how intolerant this BS is.

Redirect Notice

The examples are instructive. At a series of eventsat the Treasury Department and federal financial agencies, diversity trainer Howard Rosstaughtemployees that America was “built on the backs of people who were enslaved” and that all white Americans are complicit in a system of white supremacy “by automatic response to the ways we’re taught.”

In accompanying documents, Mr. Ross argues that whites share an inborn oppressive streak. “Whiteness,” employees are told, “includes white privilege and white supremacy.” Consequently, whites “struggle to own their racism.” He instructs managers to conduct “listening sessions” in which black employees can speak about their experience and be “seen in their pain,” while white employees are instructed to “sit in the discomfort” and not “fill the silence with your own thoughts and feelings.” Members of “the group you’re allying with,” Mr. Ross says, are not “obligated to like you, thank you, feel sorry for you, or forgive you.” For training like this, Mr. Ross and his firm have been paid $5 million over 15 years, according to federal disclosures

I read the article, and the “leaked” training documents linked in the article, and a really long fact check of the training mentioned in the article and the circumstances surrounding how the author of the wsj article got trump to bring up the treasury dept training in the debate.

Did Trump Halt Federal Diversity and Anti-Racism Training?

Trump's rhetoric on race has earned him scathing criticism, but his directive on diversity training is vague.

www.snopes.com

First of all, the most important fact to note is that the Ross event was optional
—-
“ Ross described the session as being livestreamed in a town hall format, in the wake of nationwide protests sparked by the police killing of Floyd in Minneapolis.

“They [the Office of Minority and Women Inclusion] were specifically concerned that the white folks in the organization didn’t know how to talk to people about race,” Ross told us. “There was a lot of pain and anger among folks of color, and the whole focus was around allyship and helping people learn to talk to each other.”

Although it was voluntary, an estimated 9,000 employees of federal fiscal agencies participated in the event.
“
—-

Secondly, Rufo is trying to assign a false scandalousness to the whole affair by pretending someone at Treasury had to leak him documents when, in fact, it appears everything this guy has done for the govt is out in the open. And indeed by virtue of the FOIA it would pretty much have to be.

—-
“ Ross was not personally paid $5 million by the federal government — he is the founder of the consulting firm Cook Ross. Ross told us that Cook Ross has contracted with “virtually every major department” in the federal government for diversity and inclusion workplace training and has done so for decades, going back to at least the Clinton administration. Although Rufo characterized his stories as being sourced from “whistleblowers,” Ross told us all this work has been open to the public.

“If anything, I try and steer people away from the kind of work that demonizes white people, because I know what the mindset is,” Ross told us. “If you demonize people when 90% of what they do is unconscious, you shut them down.””
—-

Third, notice the number of randomly broken up short phrases in quotations that Rufo uses throughout his WSJ article? He’s doing it because it’s easier to make things sound much worse out of context. Don’t get me wrong, some of the stuff is absolutely bonkers and I’m sure you’d disagree with all of it before you even open the thing, but much of it is either a reference to a third party for further reading or are ideas that make way way more sense in context.


Lastly, Ross disputes the notion that what he teaches even is critical race theory

—-
“
Ross, who sold the company in 2018, said for the vast majority of government-contracted work Cook Ross performed, it was the government that sought his firm out, because Cook Ross has a reputation for being balanced, and not pursuing a political agenda.

Ross pointed us to a talk he gave in 2014 to Google employees about unconscious bias for an example of what he teaches, and said that he doesn’t teach critical race theory.

“If people want to give a terrible review of my book, I’m a big boy, it’s reasonable to hold me accountable for what I’ve done,” Ross told us. “But the frustrating thing is that I’m being targeted for stuff I didn’t even do.”
“
—-



E: and while only tangentially related to the meat of the article, the following does give me an idea of how fairly Rufo is inclined to present evidence on the matter and what kind of reality he lives in

 

[vector2]

he’d actually be right.

I’d sure like to hear you reconcile how you think trump, if he weren’t a liar, could give an educated take on anti-racism or even race relations in general...with my post here

“ For those suffering from the dissonance, it simply doesn’t matter that people have written epic 50 yr histories of every instance of his racism. Doesn’t matter that trump invented the racist phenomenon of Obama birtherism. Doesn’t matter that he just perpetuated birtherism against Harris. Doesn’t matter that he endorsed Steve King. Doesn’t matter that white supremacist Stephen Miller is still working in the WH. Doesn’t matter that he said Judge Curiel couldn’t do his job because he was of Mexican heritage. Doesn’t matter that he called African countries ****holes. Doesn’t matter that he prefers immigrants who look like Norwegians. Doesn’t matter that he tells US citizen congresswomen of color to go back to where they came from. Doesn’t matter that he’s willing to hold up the military budget so that bases can keep the names of racist traitors. Doesn’t matter that he proudly calls COVID-19 “Kung Flu.” Doesn’t matter that the KKK and literally every single other white supremacist or neo-nazi organization fervently endorses him. ”


From the totality of his statements he is 100% a racist by any reasonable measure, and his supporters either fall into a camp of supporting it, euphemizing it, or living in outright denial of it.

 

[doctalaughs]

“ Ross was not personally paid $5 million by the federal government — he is the founder of the consulting firm Cook Ross. Ross told us that Cook Ross has contracted with “virtually every major department” in the federal government for diversity and inclusion workplace training and has done so for decades, going back to at least the Clinton administration. Although Rufo characterized his stories as being sourced from “whistleblowers,” Ross told us all this work has been open to the public.

I don’t doubt it was out in the open, because this stuff is accepted in a lot of places. Even worse that this guy and his firm has contracted with “virtually every major department.”

And in a previous life I saw the same stuff you call “bonkers” in large corporate America. There’s diversity trainings all start with the premise that you have to accept systemic racism is the root of disparity in America, and that certain skin tones make you racist. If you speak up or don’t agree with that premise, you are going to be browbeaten (and possibly lose your job). Most remain very, very quiet.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I’d sure like to hear you reconcile how you think trump, if he weren’t a liar, could give an educated take on anti-racism or even race relations in general...with my post here

“ For those suffering from the dissonance, it simply doesn’t matter that people have written epic 50 yr histories of every instance of his racism. Doesn’t matter that trump invented the racist phenomenon of Obama birtherism. Doesn’t matter that he just perpetuated birtherism against Harris. Doesn’t matter that he endorsed Steve King. Doesn’t matter that white supremacist Stephen Miller is still working in the WH. Doesn’t matter that he said Judge Curiel couldn’t do his job because he was of Mexican heritage. Doesn’t matter that he called African countries ****holes. Doesn’t matter that he prefers immigrants who look like Norwegians. Doesn’t matter that he tells US citizen congresswomen of color to go back to where they came from. Doesn’t matter that he’s willing to hold up the military budget so that bases can keep the names of racist traitors. Doesn’t matter that he proudly calls COVID-19 “Kung Flu.” Doesn’t matter that the KKK and literally every single other white supremacist or neo-nazi organization fervently endorses him. ”


From the totality of his statements he is 100% a racist by any reasonable measure, and his supporters either fall into a camp of supporting it, euphemizing it, or living in outright denial of it.

Come on man, we know Trump’s racism runs deep. But that doesn’t mean every white person is inherently a white supremacist. It’s just not true. Floating ideas like that are inherently divisive and not good for the society. Humans are tribal by nature, you’re never going to completely eliminate bias. US is one of the least racist societies in the world. This is a fact.

 

[deleted171991]

No, it most certainly was not out of context (just like how you absurdly calling me a Marxist wasn’t some gaffe or out of context moment for you either). Those were your words verbatim when talking about all the perceived attacks and associations you think white people received in the wake of Lebron’s tweet about Arbery. My point is even if you think white people as a class received or are receiving undue criticism of their privilege or are receiving undue blame because of what those two racist rednecks did to Arbery, *that is still not in the same universe let alone the same league as how the Nazis treated Jews as a class or how the Communists treated the bourgeoisie* , and not only does it make you sound crazy when you make analogies suggesting otherwise but it’s also pretty insulting.

I normally wouldn't care about your post at this point, but you keep putting together disparate ideas from separate posts, just to present me like an arse, while I am not the one in this case.

So let me draw the stuff that I really care about, for you (and @Ezekiel2517, who liked your post, hence probably agrees with your paranoid image of me):

1. The way the Nazis talked about the Jews or the Communists about the bourgeoisie is similar to the way Critical Race Theory and the radical left talks about whites, like it or not (see @doctalaughs's excellent post above). I was not comparing neither the Jewish nor the Red Holocaust to the present (I still hope we can avoid that), just the ideologies that led to them.

Us vs them - check. Victim vs oppressor - check. Undeserved privilege - check. Evil oppressor - check. Only do good deeds out of self interest - check. Should just keep their mouth shut and get educated about their lowlifeness - check. Despicable/inferior oppressor - check. Wealth redistribution for equity reasons - check. Hate towards "privileged" oppressor - check. Et cetera. The similarity of the pattern is blinding., except the whites are the new Jews, and it's only about 1933 yet. We'll see what happens in 50-100 years, when whites become a minority.

2. LBJ, Naomi Osaka and other celebrities have made some really exaggerated and destabilizing comments, which would have been utterly unacceptable had the races been reversed. When some white people do disgusting things and a black celebrity suggests that most white people do them (one doesn't get to "hunted" "every time" and "genocide" otherwise), that sounds like racism, like it or not. I totally understand feeling revolted about injustice, but a celebrity's words have serious consequences, hence what they did was irresponsible.

3. And I've seen Marxism first hand, so I can smell it like a trained dog can smell traces of illegal drugs. Anybody who feels insulted should think twice about the ideas they keep promoting: equity, hating the rich, wealth redistribution, privileged classes and class warfare, critical race theory etc.

4. I have never discriminated against people or patients based on skin color or sexual orientation/gender identity etc. I dislike individual stupidity and bad character in an equal opportunity fashion. The president I would love to meet is Obama (I have kept a certain letter signed by him 😉); the one l'd rather never is Trump.

Back to our regularly scheduled troll programming.

 

[doctalaughs]

From the totality of his statements he is 100% a racist by any reasonable measure, and his supporters either fall into a camp of supporting it, euphemizing it, or living in outright denial of it.

Oh I agree with you on that one- Trump says racist and bigoted stuff. I’m not defending him on that — you can classify him as a racist if you want and I wouldn’t argue. And he’s an idiot- which is why I ended up voting for Biden.

Still doesn’t make everyone who despises the policies/culture he mocked a racist too.

If instead a president said .... “I don’t agree America’s problems in the minority communities are mostly caused by systemic racism. Americans today are 99% fair and just. We need to call out those 1% who are truly racist while building a true meritocracy and enforcing the laws that mandate equal treatment for all.”

He/she could then dismantle that sort of ridiculous “training,” enforce illegal immigration (in a humane manner), push to abolish affirmative action and NOT sound like a racist (idiot) bigot.

 

[vector2]

Come on man, we know Trump’s racism runs deep. But that doesn’t mean every white person is inherently a white supremacist. It’s just not true. Floating ideas like that are inherently divisive and not good for the society. Humans are tribal by nature, you’re never going to completely eliminate bias. US is one of the least racist societies in the world. This is a fact.

I didn't say trump's racism had anything to do with that. @doctalaughs made a statement that if trump weren't a liar then perhaps he would be agreeing with trump's views on CRT etc. To me it's an absurd notion that anyone would be in concurrence with trump about anything race-related, liar or not.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Come on man, we know Trump’s racism runs deep. But that doesn’t mean every white person is inherently a white supremacist. It’s just not true. Floating ideas like that are inherently divisive and not good for the society. Humans are tribal by nature, you’re never going to completely eliminate bias. US is one of the least racist societies in the world. This is a fact.

Why are you making up words he didn't write? Where did he say every white person is a white supremacist? When it comes down to it, no, a person supporting Trump doesn't automatically mean they're a white supremacist. But it does mean that it certainly isn't a deal-breaker for you. It also means you are ok with supporting it as a political platform.

 

[vector2]

I don’t doubt it was out in the open, because this stuff is accepted in a lot of places. Even worse that this guy and his firm has contracted with “virtually every major department.”

And in a previous life I saw the same stuff you call “bonkers” in large corporate America. There’s diversity trainings all start with the premise that you have to accept systemic racism is the root of disparity in America, and that certain skin tones make you racist. If you speak up or don’t agree with that premise, you are going to be browbeaten (and possibly lose your job). Most remain very, very quiet.

Like before, we are coming at the issue with fundamentally different viewpoints and are not really going to see concurrence. If I can't open your eyes to the notion that systemic racism exists vis a vis inequality of educational opportunity (black vs white school quality), job opportunity (Jamal getting less resume callbacks than Steve), law enforcement racial profiling, unarmed white vs black fatalities, worse sentencing lengths for blacks vs whites for various crimes, mortgage lending, etc etc, then I can't well convince you of my opinion that systemic racism and anti-racism should be part of the discussion when employers do training about bias.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

I’m brown too. If this stuff is literally being mandated in federal agencies then no one can say it’s not been pushed way too far.

Maybe this is why the left is having a seizure trying to explain why Trump* actually increased his black/brown voter proportion from 2016?

Despite what the exit polling may tell you (and many believe the actual voting demographics are skewed especially bc of the massive vote by mail numbers), a huge reason Biden is going to be President is the unprecedented organization by Black ppl in Georgia, and Black ppl in places like Atlanta, Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee coming out in droves, Latino voters in AZ and NV coming out in droves, the Navajo nation made a significant impact in AZ. There's a reason he was able to flip all those states he did.

 

[vector2]

I normally wouldn't care about your post at this point, but you keep putting together disparate ideas from separate posts, just to present me like an arse, while I am not the one in this case.

So let me draw the stuff that I really care about, for you (and @Ezekiel2517, who liked your post, hence probably agrees with your paranoid image of me):

1. The way the Nazis talked about the Jews or the Communists about the bourgeoisie is similar to the way Critical Race Theory and the radical left talks about whites, like it or not (see @doctalaughs's excellent post above). I was not comparing neither the Jewish nor the Red Holocaust to the present (I still hope we can avoid that), just the ideologies that led to them.

Us vs them - check. Victim vs oppressor - check. Undeserved privilege - check. Evil oppressor - check. Only do good deeds out of self interest - check. Should just keep their mouth shut and get educated about their lowlifeness - check. Despicable/inferior oppressor - check. Wealth redistribution for equity reasons - check. Hate towards "privileged" oppressor - check. Et cetera. The similarity of the pattern is blinding., except the whites are the new Jews, and it's only about 1933 yet. We'll see what happens in 50-100 years, when whites become a minority.

2. LBJ, Naomi Osaka and other celebrities have made some really exaggerated and destabilizing comments, which would have been utterly unacceptable had the races been reversed. When some white people do disgusting things and a black celebrity suggests that most white people do them (one doesn't get to "hunted" and "genocide" otherwise), that sounds like racism, like it or not. I totally understand feeling revolted about injustice, but a celebrity's words have serious consequences, hence what they did was irresponsible.

3. And I've seen Marxism first hand, so I can smell it like a trained dog can smell traces of illegal drugs. Anybody who feels insulted should think twice about the ideas they keep promoting: equity, hating the rich, wealth redistribution, privileged classes and class warfare, critical race theory etc.

4. I have never discriminated against people or patients based on skin color or sexual orientation/gender identity etc. I dislike personal stupidity and bad character in an equal opportunity fashion. The president I would love to meet is Obama (I have kept a certain letter signed by him 😉); the one l'd rather never is Trump.

Back to our regularly scheduled troll programming.

You clarified with exactly the understanding I already had of what you already were saying. And it's still crazy.

First of all, I'm curious what percentage of the population you think are "radical left" considering how much you go on about them, because my guess is we both have quite different numbers in mind.

Secondly, you're creating a wild caricature of what most people think of when referring to white privilege with your "evil/despicable/lowlife oppressor" language just to make it fit your tortured analogy.

And finally, I don't care how much you think your tortured analogy fits. Any sentence about whites in 2020 America that ends with "except the whites are the new Jews, and it's only about 1933 yet." ..is obscene and you should stop doing that.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Also, we currently have an outgoing POTUS (along w most of the party) actively trying to disrupt a transition. Imo, this should be considered treason.

 

[vector2]

Despite what the exit polling may tell you (and many believe the actual voting demographics are skewed especially bc of the massive vote by mail numbers), a huge reason Biden is going to be President is the unprecedented organization by Black ppl in Georgia, and Black ppl in places like Atlanta, Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee coming out in droves, Latino voters in AZ and NV coming out in droves, the Navajo nation made a significant impact in AZ. There's a reason he was able to flip all those states he did.

Even without the skew, I feel like I'm in a bizarro universe when people are telling me how well trump did with bipoc when the reality is that he still lost 9 in 10 black people and he underperformed Hispanic numbers that the GOP had almost 20 years ago

 

[deleted171991]

And finally, I don't care how much you think your tortured analogy fits. Any sentence about whites in 2020 America that ends with "except the whites are the new Jews, and it's only about 1933 yet." ..is obscene and you should stop doing that.

You think? Then maybe the radical left should stop preaching about hating white everything, and brainwashing our youth into it. The whites are the new boogeymen.

We are not Germany after WWII. We are a country of immigrants, 150+ years after slavery, 50 years after the Civil Rights Act, many decades after segregation and Jim Crow stuff in most of the country, with 15% of living Americans born abroad, and probably another 10-15% first generation Americans of immigrant parents.

I am sure that at least this 30% feels innocent of all the past atrocities African Americans blame on whites. I know I do, when about my entire extended family. Many immigrants came to this country because they were persecuted, not persecutors.

German self-flagellation is a bad idea in this century, because it will just create a lot of antisemitism among the younger generations who feel not responsible for the sins of their ancestors, even if they truly were systemic and horrible. We shouldn't condemn all whites for the sins of their ancestors either, no more than we should treat Australians as criminals, just because some of their ancestors were. There is no group sin, except in the eyes of totalitarian regimes. In liberal democracies, people are responsible only for their own individual actions. Reparations don't work, affirmative action either; both produce a lot of harm and not a lot of good.

And I still believe that a victim mentality for any minority is a losing proposition that only leads to hateful backlash. People are instinctual animals; if one pushes them too much, they push back.

Can I go now (without getting slandered in absentia)?

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Even without the skew, I feel like I'm in a bizarro universe when people are telling me how well trump did with bipoc when the reality is that he still lost 9 in 10 black people and he underperformed Hispanic numbers that the GOP had almost 20 years.

It's mind boggling. I'm open to hearing all sides but there's gotta be evidence/facts to back it up.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-white-house-purge/2020/11/13/2af12c94-25ca-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html?tid=ss_tw

 

[vector2]

You think? Then maybe the radical left should stop preaching about hating white everything, and brainwashing our youth into it.

Obviously you're not convincing me of anything wrt this "whites are the real victims" nonsense, but a just a tip- the more you keep using these "whites are the new 1933 Jews and 'woke' people are the Nazis" analogies, the faster you turn every potentially sympathetic person away from your cause.

 

[Leon'sMom]

 

[deleted171991]

Obviously you're not convincing me of anything wrt this "whites are the real victims" nonsense, but a just a tip- the more you keep using these "whites are the new 1933 Jews and 'woke' people are the Nazis" analogies, the faster you turn every potentially sympathetic person away from your cause.

I don't have a "cause". I'm a "live and let live" moderate.

Be well.

 

[doctalaughs]

It's mind boggling. I'm open to hearing all sides but there's gotta be evidence/facts to back it up.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Opinion | Blacks and Latinos for Trump

The president lost, but he did a good deal better with minorities in 2020 than he did in 2016.

www.wsj.com

these are undisputed facts. Given this is after 4 years of stupid, bigoted (and yes, racist) stuff coming out of his mouth - there is a good argument to be made that Minorities like me *also* don’t like the identity politics being played by the left.

We get a presidential candidate that fights against stuff like this while NOT saying idiotic things.... many more minorities will flock to the Republican Party.

 

[doctalaughs]

Like before, we are coming at the issue with fundamentally different viewpoints and are not really going to see concurrence. If I can't open your eyes to the notion that systemic racism exists vis a vis inequality of educational opportunity (black vs white school quality), job opportunity (Jamal getting less resume callbacks than Steve), law enforcement racial profiling, unarmed white vs black fatalities, worse sentencing lengths for blacks vs whites for various crimes, mortgage lending, etc etc, then I can't well convince you of my opinion that systemic racism and anti-racism should be part of the discussion when employers do training about bias.

We can go around and around about the same studies, condescending “you don’t understand the history of this country” etc in all these threads.

Again, these things are not evidence of systemic racism and do not support critical race theory or affirmative action. They show that humans are innately biased and tribal. Unfortunately, the policies of the left do NOT help change that bias (in fact, they make it worse and promote a different type of racism).

you can create systems to minimize bias (ie name blind resume screening, name/race blind sentencing by a separate judge etc.) And you can work to change cultures around value of education + hard work etc. But telling people that “systemic racism” is perpetuated by certain skin colors, promoting a victim mentality in other skin colors, and trying to redistribute to get equality of outcomes does NOT work.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Opinion | Blacks and Latinos for Trump

The president lost, but he did a good deal better with minorities in 2020 than he did in 2016.

www.wsj.com

these are undisputed facts. Given this is after 4 years of stupid, bigoted (and yes, racist) stuff coming out of his mouth - there is a good argument to be made that Minorities like me *also* don’t like the identity politics being played by the left.

We get a presidential candidate that fights against stuff like this while NOT saying idiotic things.... many more minorities will flock to the Republican Party.

Like I said and as vector mentioned, regardless of what the exit polling showed which many are skeptical of, it was obvious the Black and Latino vote was a huge reason Biden won. I couldn't care less if your imaginings tell you minorities will flock to the GOP lol. Anyways, I was not referring to your post specifically. It was more in general reference to all the crying ppl do in this thread without backing it up with facts.