SCS cancelled: again

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

lobelsteve

Full Member
Staff member
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
22,990
Reaction score
14,535
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?
 
Ideal to wait 6-8 weeks after significant pulm infection. If not at baseline, cancel.

Dyspnea likely to worsen postop (atelectasis, etc)

Elective? Surgery type? Age and comorbities of patient? These factors can nudge decision in either direction
 
1. Is the patient at baseline or are they worse than baseline? If they are not at baseline for an elective case, I would wait until they are.


2. Is this at a freestanding surgery center? In general I have a lower threshold to cancel cases at freestanding surgery centers than in the hospital or a hospital attached surgery center. If a patient has oxygenation issues in pacu and does not meet discharge criteria at a freestanding surgery center, it’s a much bigger deal. Call 911, transfer to hospital by ambulance, reported to the state department of public health, generate massive ER and ambulance bills, etc.
 
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?
I wouldn't let a PCP's risk assessment influence my own decision to proceed with a case. I'll hold my tongue regarding whether or not this case should have proceeded, but we're missing a lot of details either way.
 
What was the reasoning the anesthesiologist that met the patient and that cancelled the case gave? He/she is the one you should be having this discussion with. Also not sure what the pcp saying low risk has to do with anything. What does a pcp know about anesthesia
Said patient reported SOB above baseline when walking to car. Patient clarified in my office that is what brought him to PCP the month prior. But with neg CXR for PNA, unsure if he had anything going on.
 
Don't say anything, show me the literature.

Show me the lit saying your patient, who can’t walk to the car without being SOB, will benefit from the procedure today vs two weeks from now, a month from now, or even at all.

Fwiw I’d do the case, but individual patient decisions aren’t found in the lit oftentimes. We make these decisions, like them or not, based on knowledge and feel learned in med school and residency.
 
Don't say anything, show me the literature.

Show me the literature is a noble but probably unachievable goal for a lot of things in medicine. Not just this particular clinical question.

(I haven't looked personally but there is probably something out there about this, but whether it is a recommendation based on expert opinion vs. A large multicenter rct I don't know)
 
Last edited:
Don't say anything, show me the literature.
There is no literature to show.
It’s basic. If the anesthesiologist is not comfortable with patient’s activity tolerance on pre op eval for a totally elective pain procedure - then they are in their right to cancel.
 
There’s no literature because it is a stupid study requiring a high number of participants to achieve the outcome that we already know. Any good surgeon would have already delayed this case.
 
There’s no literature because it is a stupid study requiring a high number of participants to achieve the outcome that we already know. Any good surgeon would have already delayed this case.

In the actual world that most of us live in, Nobody would cancel this case day of surgery. Most of us would think less of a colleague that did, although we would not share that opinion.
 
I'm just an idiot mostly inpatient anesthesiologist. How are these cases usually done? MAC? LMA? ETT? I mean, I'd personally do the case but I also take care of sick patients ALL the time and as said above I'm impressed when my patients ARENT short of breath going from here to there. It's honestly hard to judge without seeing the patient. I do think when this particular OP brings up these threads it's a very one sided story especially given the reaction to some of the responses. Also the concerns that @nimbus brings up are very valid if this is a freestanding center.
 
Maybe we’re missing some info they’ve already factored in. Like proceduralist skill level, degree of flail, or duration of struggle. Maybe subjecting these patients to these procedures require GA levels of sedation while prone. No idea what the actual picture is, but it doesn’t pass the sniff test from my computer.

Not sure what complaining here is going to accomplish. “But SDN said they wouldn’t have cancelled..”
 
Last edited:
It’s subjective.

Obviously case will go fine. Will the patient have increased risk of postoperative pulmonary complications? No one knows for sure, but if in doubt with recent PNA and reported SOB, may lean towards cancelling. Would hope the surgeon or porceduralist would have cancelled prior to DOS for this rather than make the anesthesiologist do it.
 
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?

I think what a lot of surgeons and other proceduralists don't really understand about consultant opinions and "clearances" is that they can be damning, but very rarely reassuring. That is, if they say a patient is poorly optimized, they're probably correct. However, when they give their stamp of approval, they are often not considering factors that we care about. In the end, anesthesiologists and nobody else can really clear patients for anesthesia.

I always hated the idea of a "periop anesthesia home" clinic where all patients are screened by us on a day prior to anesthesia. I hated that job so much that when I wrote our scheduling software, I had it hardcoded to refuse to allow anyone named pgg to be assigned to the preop clinic. But. I admit that it's useful in avoiding day-of-surgery cancellations. In the end though I don't believe the cost and hassle and pain of such a preop clinic run by anesthesiologists is really worth the rare case that gets flagged ahead of time rather than cancelled on the day of surgery.


A chest xray can be normal despite significant respiratory problems. Same for the CBC. Like the PCP's opinion, they have value when abnormal ... less so when they're normal.

SOB when walking is concerning.

I think you shouldn't have scheduled this case, or even referred the patient to the PCP for an opinion, because you should've recognized that SOB when walking, a few weeks after a pneumonia requiring antibiotic therapy, in a patient with asthma at baseline ... is not the picture of a patient who's optimized for elective surgery.

I also think I probably would have done the case, provided my in-person assessment of the patient was not alarming.
 
What was the reasoning the anesthesiologist that met the patient and that cancelled the case gave? He/she is the one you should be having this discussion with. Also not sure what the pcp saying low risk has to do with anything. What does a pcp know about anesthesia
You think a doc sees the patient? It was their Np who staffs pre-op. As above, went to pcp a month ago and said was SOB at that time. PCP rx abx. Normal cxr. I spoke with the Anesthesiologist today and was told no elective cases until 2weeks after finishing Abx.
 
You think a doc sees the patient? It was their Np who staffs pre-op. As above, went to pcp a month ago and said was SOB at that time. PCP rx abx. Normal cxr. I spoke with the Anesthesiologist today and was told no elective cases until 2weeks after finishing Abx.
Waiting an arbitrary amount of time after being given antibiotics is not a good reason.
 
You think a doc sees the patient? It was their Np who staffs pre-op. As above, went to pcp a month ago and said was SOB at that time. PCP rx abx. Normal cxr. I spoke with the Anesthesiologist today and was told no elective cases until 2weeks after finishing Abx.
Oh good even better. A mid-level who was a few months ago could have been wiping ass is now telling an a specialist that the patient is medically cleared. Barring major red flags, I would have done the case with minimal sedation and told the patient to buckle up and the surgeon to be liberal with local.

Most patients have alarming DOE, it's amazing how they get out of bed and survive ADLs every day when they get SOB just moving from the stretcher to OR bed. It's like the movie Wall-E hasn't come soon enough
 
I think what a lot of surgeons and other proceduralists don't really understand about consultant opinions and "clearances" is that they can be damning, but very rarely reassuring. That is, if they say a patient is poorly optimized, they're probably correct. However, when they give their stamp of approval, they are often not considering factors that we care about. In the end, anesthesiologists and nobody else can really clear patients for anesthesia.

I always hated the idea of a "periop anesthesia home" clinic where all patients are screened by us on a day prior to anesthesia. I hated that job so much that when I wrote our scheduling software, I had it hardcoded to refuse to allow anyone named pgg to be assigned to the preop clinic. But. I admit that it's useful in avoiding day-of-surgery cancellations. In the end though I don't believe the cost and hassle and pain of such a preop clinic run by anesthesiologists is really worth the rare case that gets flagged ahead of time rather than cancelled on the day of surgery.


A chest xray can be normal despite significant respiratory problems. Same for the CBC. Like the PCP's opinion, they have value when abnormal ... less so when they're normal.

SOB when walking is concerning.

I think you shouldn't have scheduled this case, or even referred the patient to the PCP for an opinion, because you should've recognized that SOB when walking, a few weeks after a pneumonia requiring antibiotic therapy, in a patient with asthma at baseline ... is not the picture of a patient who's optimized for elective surgery.

I also think I probably would have done the case, provided my in-person assessment of the patient was not alarming.
All of this. Again I’m just the forum idiot but the patient getting SOB walking to a car is them quite literally failing a stress test….at least on paper. Could be different on “eye test”.
 
It sounds like this is not the day of the procedure? If we’re in pre-op clinic, I’m telling everyone to reschedule when symptoms improve.

On day of, there is missing information, but assuming no cardiac risk factors and cardiac etiology has been ruled out for the dyspnea, I would proceed. It wouldn’t be the first time that some cardiac pathology was misdiagnosed as pneumonia.

I’m not clear why this case was scheduled for now in someone with dyspnea on exertion that is worse from baseline?
 
Said patient reported SOB above baseline when walking to car. Patient clarified in my office that is what brought him to PCP the month prior. But with neg CXR for PNA, unsure if he had anything going on.

I'm skeptical too that this person had PNA.

Which raises a couple questions :

1. What actually is causing their quite significant, ongoing dyspnea?
2. Why don't you care what that reason is if you concur that PNA is/was unlikely?
 
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?
Rereading the original post …. There simply is not enough info, and not enough investigation into SOB to proceed with an elective case. Again patient will get through procedure fine, but may have postop complications, and for an elective case simply not worth the risk. Probably 9 times out of 10 the case would simply proceed, and usually without any harm to the patient.
 
Said patient reported SOB above baseline when walking to car. Patient clarified in my office that is what brought him to PCP the month prior. But with neg CXR for PNA, unsure if he had anything going on.

Something is going on, right? Worsening dyspnea on exertion is going on. What is causing it, if not pneumonia?
 
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?

Said patient reported SOB above baseline when walking to car. Patient clarified in my office that is what brought him to PCP the month prior. But with neg CXR for PNA, unsure if he had anything going on.

Don't say anything, show me the literature.

My take: low risk doesn’t mean zero risk. Discuss with surgeon and patient. Proceed or postpone based on said discussion.

SOB above baseline for an elective case? Eyeball test with a low threshold for postponing (not cancelling) unless you tell me it’s an urgent/emergent SCS placement. I can do nearly any case for any patient. Doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

Also hot take: who cares? “See you in two weeks. Hope you feel better then.” Call for the next patient. Move on with your life. Stop asking for “literature” and validation from SDN.
 
Anesthesia cancelling case.
Reported pneumonia a month ago. H/o asthma.
Off Abx x10 days.
Normal CBC
Normal CXR.
Pre-op eval 2 days before surgery and patient says SOB when waking to car. No sx in office, normal pulse ox on RA.
Cancelled by anesthesia as not at baseline.
Fax today from PCP saying low risk.

Your take?
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
Lol wut? That would have been an automatic cancel from me. Punt that to the hospital. Severe pulm htn and a pt that ill has no business in an ASC
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
Wow.

"Bit rocky?"

What kind of criteria do ya'll have for surgery center? How is this patient going home after a general anesthetic at 5PM? That's scary.
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.


You did this at a free standing surgery center? Under GA? I’d cancel immediately. Too high risk of going to the ICU.
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
1666965880830.gif
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.

Lol, this is a slam dunk cancel for an ASC. This is the type of patient the smaller community hospitals refer to our main hospital for surgery because they’re too sick. If this patient was done at my hospital, even if scheduled as ambulatory surgery, PACU nursing staff would refuse to discharge them home if they got a general that late, especially if they’re in as rough shape as you suggest. And with severe pulmonary HTN, the point of same day discharge is moot because I’d be recommending/documenting my recommendation for ICU admission post-op.

Bad pulm HTN has the potential to be the scariest disease process we deal with in anesthesia. You're incredibly lucky nothing bad happened. You’d get raked over the coals if it did. Prosecution would have a list of expert witnesses a mile long salivating at the opportunity to say what an unsafe, terrible idea this was.
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
I'm not so sure the conclusion everyone is coming to is 100%. So I'll play both sides here for a minute.

I think your rationale for proceeding with the case is correct. This is a classic oral board situation and "cancel case" is never the answer that will stop the examiner. This patient probably isn't going to get any better and this is her established baseline. Now having said that there's some stuff to talk about. Is it an ASC case? Probably not. She's probably served better at a hospital or an ASC attached to a hospital. But ok, let's say the surgeon is pushing it hard. This patient needs a block, maybe precedex, and local supplementation by the surgeon. I guess it depends on where the fistula is being placed but if it's almost anywhere in the arm I would suggest a block if no contraindication.

If she can't have a block or the surgeon is uncomfortable doing it with a block/local/light sedation, then yes, I would cancel it and tell the surgeon if the lady needs a GA then she needs to be done at a hospital. Can this be pulled off with an LMA general? Of course, but I'm guessing that's what made it rocky because the minute her CO2 starts to climb and worsen that pHTN, it's going to be ugly.
 
Last edited:
-ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation.
-Documented severe pulmonary hypertension.
-there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue.
-receiving general anesthesia

FavoriteInformalAmericancicada-max-1mb.gif
 
Lol, this is a slam dunk cancel for an ASC. This is the type of patient the smaller community hospitals refer to our main hospital for surgery because they’re too sick. If this patient was done at my hospital, even if scheduled as ambulatory surgery, PACU nursing staff would refuse to discharge them home if they got a general that late, especially if they’re in as rough shape as you suggest. And with severe pulmonary HTN, the point of same day discharge is moot because I’d be recommending/documenting my recommendation for ICU admission post-op.

Bad pulm HTN has the potential to be the scariest disease process we deal with in anesthesia. You're incredibly lucky nothing bad happened. You’d get raked over the coals if it did. Prosecution would have a list of expert witnesses a mile long salivating at the opportunity to say what an unsafe, terrible idea this was.
Meh. Definitely should have been done as local/sedation. That being said there is virtually no lawsuit risk for this 80 year old sick as $hit ESRD patient. Typically families are somewhat relieved when things go all the way south😉. Even if they did pursue litigation I Doubt there would be too many attorneys willing to take the case because it’s unlikely to pay out significant $$ if at all.
 
What was the procedure?

That being said, unless I saw something else on physical exam or in the clinical history after talking to the patient I wouldn’t have any problem doing this case either. Depending on what it is.

Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
Not a GA case anywhere. Local/sed regardless of location
 
Yesterday I was presented with yet another ASA4 at the surgery center at 5pm for AV fistula creation. Home oxygen, 2 L, 80 years old, 80 pounds, coughing constantly due to end-stage lung disease. Documented severe pulmonary hypertension. Nurses wanted me to cancel. Surgeon really wanted do the case. Each has their own individual motivations.
I looked at the patient thoroughly, listen to her lungs, and there’s virtually no airflow in her lungs due to a loss of strength and tissue. However, I didn’t feel that canceling her yesterday would result in any significant improvement of her in the long run. She would be wheeled back into the surgery center at some later date looking just as crappy. The bigger issue is that she’s being put on dialysis at all, but God forbid I raise that sort of objection.
Patient did fine after receiving general anesthesia. It was a bit rocky tho.
Exactly how bad was the pulm htn? Also why not a block?
 
I knew this would be a controversial thing to post, but I thought it was useful in light of the original case situation that started this thread.
The point of the posting was merely to show many of you how things are in other places.
In this particular situation, a block “could” have been an option, especially for someone like myself with significant regional experience. This was an AV graft with incisions in the antecubital fossa as well as up in the armpit with a tunneling between, so ideally I would’ve performed a pecs2 coupled with an axillary block. However, when you go to lie this patient anywhere near flat, she begins coughing almost incessantly. She literally no longer has any ciliary cell function and no muscular strength or elasticity in her lungs to be able to move air. So all of her phlegm just sits there.
In addition, this is a surgery center where we only do “certain blocks“. Part of long-standing traditions on the part of the medical Director of the surgery center. Any suggestion of doing anything different than what happens there every single day is immediately met with anger, fear, and questions of safety. Let’s forget about the fact that the bigger question of safety is doing general anesthesia on this person in the freaking first place.

This ASC is not truly freestanding, it is on the physical campus of one of our main hospitals. However, the distance between the ICU in the hospital and this ASC OR is at least half a mile of halls.

The accusation made by some of you that my doing this case was reckless is not really fair. I am extraordinarily concerned about NOT being reckless. I did residencies in medicine and anesthesia. I am very familiar with the physiology of chronic pulmonary hypertension. And I work in a private practice, where if one gets a reputation as a “canceler”, one gets talked about when one is not around.

I would have been entirely within my right to cancel this patient. Other members of my group likely would have canceled this case without a doubt.
However, what happens then? She has to come back at another time to have the procedure done again. And she likely won’t be any more improved. You can argue that she needs to be done in the hospital, with an arterial line. However, I will argue back that she is receiving three times a week hemodialysis that removes her blood from her body at flows of 300 to 400 mL per minute. They don’t use an arterial line there. She sometimes falls asleep during dialysis, I’m sure. And I’m sure that when she falls asleep she becomes more hypercapnic and that potentially worsens her pulmonary hypertension.

In the end, I decided that in my hands at that time with that patient in that clinical condition I felt that it was significantly possible that I could achieve the desired goal. And on top of that, if you dose her gently and incrementally without burning bridges I could always stop if she became unstable. Of course if she suffered immediate cardiac arrest after induction with 50 mg of propofol, there will always be someone who will come afterwards and say “you never should’ve done this“. But quite frankly the bigger concern is that this person would be offered chronic hemodialysis in the first place. I’m not in control of that, and that ship has already sailed. If you have a detailed discussion with the patient and their family members and explain how significant the risks are and they elect to proceed and you document this, where is the problem?

What happened with the case was that after the LMA went in and as she breathed spontaneously she continued to cough even with ETsevo 2.5%. It took quite a while for her to settle into a breathing rhythm, but for chrissake she goes to sleep every night without end tidal monitoring and seems to wake up the next day. So she just chugged along throughout the case, her blood pressure remained stable, And at the end when I removed the LMA there was a hock of phlegm in that LMA so large that it took up nearly the entire lumen. And I removed it for her. It was like giving a patient with alveolar proteinosis a pulmonary lavage. 😁
When I went to see her 45 minutes later in recovery, she was sitting upright sucking on a lollipop with her nasal cannula oxygen going. I told her that I was happy that she did so well, and she responded “didn’t I tell you I would?“ 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
Top