SDN Culture

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Sunbodi said:
Are SDNers brutally honest or excessive in answering advice that is asked frequently?
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Some SDN responses are brutal. Most are honest. Occasionally they are excessive. While there are similar questions asked repeatedly, I expect there are far more users who Search first and find their answers without ever posting about it.
 
gonnif said:
I am brutal, honest and excessive. I recently have come to the conclusion that to get these applicants really solidly ready for the challenge of applying to medical school, the actual mechanics of applying, of how to think, of how to communicate, I have to really "slap" them about their attitude and ideas that are: far too optimistic; far too pessimistic; naive, based on conjuncture, rumor and myth, and just plain ignorant. So I view myself as the meanest, loudest Marine Drill Instructor screaming at raw green recruits until they piss themselves and soil their pants in order to save their asses when applying.
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And they shout in unison "Sir! Yes, SIR!"
 
Quite a few people on here aren't completely honest and downplay how much effort they put in to everything to look really smart. I've learned not to believe in those "I get an A in every class and never study" stories, because they're never completely honest. Some posters get way too excited and start foaming at the mouth when they see the opportunity to tell someone off. I don't like how some people here get off on telling others that they have no chance in medical school when that's not the case. The stats on here are borderline ridiculous, and aren't reflective of the actual applicant population. I still have to constantly remind myself that its primarily the 1% posting on here, and plenty of people get into MD/DO without ever hearing of SDN.

On the opposite side of things, I'll take SDN over the r/premed crew any day. r/premed is TOO nice, and too many times have I seen someone with a 3.3/3.4 GPA get told that they have a good shot at MD when they don't. If you say something that disagrees with the hive mind, prepare for downvotes, "well, let me tell you about my personal anecdote, because I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who said he got into harvard with a 1.9. bam, there's my proof that a 3.4 is competitive for MD", and "who do you think you are to be so mean?".
 
gonnif said:
I am brutal, honest and excessive. I recently have come to the conclusion that to get these applicants really solidly ready for the challenge of applying to medical school, the actual mechanics of applying, of how to think, of how to communicate, I have to really "slap" them about their attitude and ideas that are: far too optimistic; far too pessimistic; naive, based on conjuncture, rumor and myth, and just plain ignorant. So I view myself as the meanest, loudest Marine Drill Instructor screaming at raw green recruits until they piss themselves and soil their pants in order to save their asses when applying.
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You would make a great Asian parent lol
 
While in UG I had countless people warn me about checking SDN for any advice, they were also the same people that complained about how rude/harsh our premed advisor is. I’m starting to think those people just have a hard time accepting truth without any sugarcoating. But I shouldn’t expect anything less from my everyone gets a participation trophy generation lol.
 
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I always imagined @gonnif as a tiger mom. Today, this idea was confirmed.
 
soysizle said:
While in UG I had countless people warn me about checking SDN for any advice, they were also the same people that complained about how rude/harsh our premed advisor is. I’m starting to think those people just have a hard time excepting truth without any sugarcoating. But I shouldn’t expect anything less from my everyone gets a participation trophy generation lol.
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I don't mean to generalize, but some Americans truly amaze me in their "softness", for lack of a better word. The educational system here is very forgiving, being able to mess up in high school and still being able to go to medical school through a traditional path is great. I'm sure many relate but I grew up, in part, in a culture that categorizes people by ability and potential in middle school. You have to believe in yourself because you can be sure not too many others are going to. It seems like with the generally more supportive American culture, people would have a higher base self-esteem to take criticism gracefully. Sorry if that sounded cocky, I'm honestly curious about this since I haven't been in the US for too long yet.
 
Sunbodi said:
Are SDNers brutally honest or excessive in answering advice that is asked frequently?
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Have you tried using the search function first?
ebno said:
I don't mean to generalize, but some Americans truly amaze me in their "softness", for lack of a better word. The educational system here is very forgiving, being able to mess up in high school and still being able to go to medical school through a traditional path is great. I'm sure many relate but I grew up, in part, in a culture that categorizes people by ability and potential in middle school. You have to believe in yourself because you can be sure not too many others are going to. It seems like with the generally more supportive American culture, people would have a higher base self-esteem to take criticism gracefully. Sorry if that sounded cocky, I'm honestly curious about this since I haven't been in the US for too long yet.
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I think our education system has gradually become over commoditized. I found out that our school now has statistics for Biological sciences, statistics for Psychologists, statistics for mathematicians, statistics for actuaries, and statistics for statisticians. What happened to regular statistics? Is that now a statistics that is intended for only regular people to take? Why is it that when you want to take Calculus, you have the pitfall of possibly taking the wrong Calculus class from Calc 1 to Multivariable? These are immutable topics that shouldn't have a significantly altered curriculum based on who is taking it or what level their perceived competence is currently at. Do I get to specifically order professors to teach specific conditions based on ratemyprofessors ratings? A lot of where we are right now feels less like a learning experience and more like a shopping experience.
 
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ebno said:
I don't mean to generalize, but some Americans truly amaze me in their "softness", for lack of a better word. The educational system here is very forgiving, being able to mess up in high school and still being able to go to medical school through a traditional path is great. I'm sure many relate but I grew up, in part, in a culture that categorizes people by ability and potential in middle school. You have to believe in yourself because you can be sure not too many others are going to. It seems like with the generally more supportive American culture, people would have a higher base self-esteem to take criticism gracefully. Sorry if that sounded cocky, I'm honestly curious about this since I haven't been in the US for too long yet.
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You could pretty much flunk through middle school and they have to pass you along to high school. Having worked at multiple high schools for a couple years, you’d be amazed by how many kids are allowed to pass through the system with their hands held being practically spoonfed the information. I think this is a newer phenomenon and that’s what I believe a lot of this softness stems from.
 
Pina Colada said:
Have you tried using the search function first?

I think our education system has gradually become over commoditized. I found out that our school now has statistics for Biological sciences, statistics for Psychologists, statistics for mathematicians, statistics for actuaries, and statistics for statisticians. What happened to regular statistics? Is that now a statistics that is intended for only regular people to take? Why is it that when you want to take Calculus, you have the pitfall of possibly taking the wrong Calculus class from Calc 1 to Multivariable? These are immutable topics that shouldn't have a significantly altered curriculum based on who is taking it or what level their perceived competence is currently at. Do I get to specifically order professors to teach specific conditions based on ratemyprofessors ratings? A lot of where we are right now feels less like a learning experience and more like a shopping experience.
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I’ll be honest I took calc for life sciences because my friends had told me it’s easier than regular calc. I couldn’t agree with you more in regard to rate my professor. One thing I will say is that stats is used in so many professions and disciplines that I think people should study it in a manner that becomes relevant to their field of study and interests. When I took regular stats we spent a lot of time working through proofs, which if I were planning on being a mathematician might be useful to me, but let’s be real, I’m pretty sure nobody uses proofs outside of academia.
 
gonnif said:
So I view myself as the meanest, loudest Marine Drill Instructor screaming at raw green recruits until they piss themselves and soil their pants in order to save their asses when applying.
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This made me lol so much (I mean, I’m assuming this whole post is your typical humor).
 
soysizle said:
While in UG I had countless people warn me about checking SDN for any advice, they were also the same people that complained about how rude/harsh our premed advisor is. I’m starting to think those people just have a hard time accepting truth without any sugarcoating. But I shouldn’t expect anything less from my everyone gets a participation trophy generation lol.
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I had someone warn me about this site too, I ended up being curious and went looking for it and ended up making an account the same day. Their warning backfired so bad 🤣
 
Ms Procrastinator said:
I had someone warn me about this site too, I ended up being curious and went looking for it and ended up making an account the same day. Their warning backfired so bad 🤣
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The doc who runs the premed years podcast is always calling out this site for being cutthroat lol.
 
gonnif said:
I am brutal, honest and excessive. I recently have come to the conclusion that to get these applicants really solidly ready for the challenge of applying to medical school, the actual mechanics of applying, of how to think, of how to communicate, I have to really "slap" them about their attitude and ideas that are: far too optimistic; far too pessimistic; naive, based on conjuncture, rumor and myth, and just plain ignorant. So I view myself as the meanest, loudest Marine Drill Instructor screaming at raw green recruits until they piss themselves and soil their pants in order to save their asses when applying.
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Are you really oblivious to how pathetic this looks? Why be toxic to essentially misinformed premeds?
 
7331poas said:
Are you really oblivious to how pathetic this looks? Why be toxic to essentially misinformed premeds?
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I think if you've seen @gonnif post you know he is not actually toxic. Rather he is realistic and provides concrete advice based on experience. Sometimes people don't want to hear it.
 
OneTwoThreeFour said:
I think if you've seen @gonnif post you know he is not actually toxic. Rather he is realistic and provides concrete advice based on experience. Sometimes people don't want to hear it.
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gonnif is by far the most toxic of the "experts" on this forum. if anything you are describing goro. Lizzy faha and gyngyn are also amazing.
 
Alright lets break this down.

gonnif said:
For highly intelligent, high achieving, top students, I find lack of judgement, no self evaluation, or even basic research to find out the facts as this seems unbeknownst to them.
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I cannot speak for other matriculants, but I came to this forum for "insider" knowledge. When I ask for a school list, I know perfectly well how to browse the MSAR, but I cannot know things like UWash will never consider an OOS applicant despite having extremely favorable OOS admissions rates on their MSAR page.

I come to this forum because there are certain elements of applying that are not apparent just from reading official statements from the AAMC. Just like how if I am in a clinical setting, reading books is not sufficient to becoming a good member of the team. Sometimes you do need to ask someone "in-the-know" for other perspectives. And that is perfectly okay.

gonnif said:
So many applicants who say they have always known they want to be a doctor, jump into filling out AMCAS with ever reading the FREE instructions in the applicant guide, never looking at any of the dozens of free videos or tutorials and hundreds of pages on the AMCAS site, or have read, nor much less taken a deep dive, into the websites of the medical schools.
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Applicants may do this. But lets again examine why. The applicant guide provided by the AAMC may or may not be the best information available for students to use when applying. You might argue that, yes, the applicant guide is in fact the best advice available. But again, your statement is only known to those who have already considered the "folk advice" available on forums like SDN.

Additionally, students may wish to be given advice from their peers as to their approaches to filling out certain sections of the AMCAS. Applicants may have been fed contradictory information from ostensibly knowledgeable mentors like pre-med advisors or for-profit "non-trad" advisors.

gonnif said:
Their rational thinking and judgement seems to fly out the window as they rush into double majors, overloaded schedules, especially right before MCAT, and too much of research and shadowing and not enough volunteering and community service, relying on myth, rumor, heresay, and delusion.
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Okay. So lets talk about why an applicant might do this. They may have been fed incorrect information about how schools "like to see strenuous course schedules" or that schools may like to see publications over volunteering activities. Applicants might be unsure about what volunteering activities are appropriate.

You may counter, well, there is advice out about how schools will accept any form of volunteerism, or they might explicitly state that an applicant does not "need" research. The problem is that the AAMC generally does not given information that totally benefits the applicant. Many schools are not transparent about their admissions process, they are not transparent about compterized cutoffs, and instead advertise a predatory "holistic" admissions process to low-stat applicants.

gonnif said:
Its the ones who cant see how their record is weak, here is how to improve it but believe that they must apply NOW. It those who propose some idea, method, path, to get into medical school and are so convinced of the soundeness of their plan, that are blind to the facts no matter how many times you explain it to them
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I won't even go into the various factors that might push an applicant to apply as soon as possible. earlier 401k contributions, earlier access to attending income to reach long-term retirement goals, short-term finances which may pressure an applicant to apply sooner than later, etc.

gonnif said:
Dismissed
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Honestly sad, how a 40 year old (wo)man who profits off "old premeds" for financial gain continues to be oblivious to the consequences of his or her tone on a forum. Your demeanor has been adopted to a variety of settings, one being the hospital. These are the environments that have lead to toxic work cultures and rampant rates of depression and suicide in the field of medical education.
 
Sunbodi said:
Are SDNers brutally honest or excessive in answering advice that is asked frequently?
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The advice is honest. Because SDN doesn't offer upvotes/downvotes - our members will see every opinion, not just those that get voted to the top. That means that sometimes members will get blunt (perhaps downright condescending) answers that wouldn't be seen elsewhere.

For the record, I don't like negativity or condescension -- there's too much anger out in the world today and we don't need it reflected here. Treating people with dignity and respect is critical. Any suggestions on how we can balance open discussion with the 'golden rule' on SDN are certainly encouraged.

gonnif said:
@7331poas

Just 3 points I would to clear up.
1) my medicare would show I am way closer to 70 then 40
2) OldPreMeds was an organization I took over for nothing, I was one of its main financial contributors for 10 years then sold it for
$10 dollars so it was legally transferred. It never made a profit
3) as my multiple posts on private advisor have
said, 90% of the people who contact me I give them an hour of my time, set them straight, and send them on their way. I turn most people down, especially traditional applicants and their parents. I deal with people who I believe will make good docs, who have problematic situations, and do so for free

I leave the rest for others to judge
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FWIW - OPM was founded way back in the day by @OldManDave (SDN had helped with its founding). @gonnif took the mantle after a few years and successfully operated that organization before transferring it. I can attest that gonnif was running OPM as a labor of love.
 
Lee said:
FWIW - OPM was founded way back in the day by @OldManDave (SDN had helped him with its founding). gonnif took the mantle after a few years and successfully operated that organization before transferring it. I can attest that gonnif was running OPM as a labor of love.
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That makes little difference to me in the scope of this thread. Perhaps it is possible that gonnif behaves differently when contacting him through his website, perhaps not. But his actions on this website only perpetuate the toxic culture in medical education that drive high levels of depression and suicide, especially in the highest socioeconomic brackets that physicians reside. There is zero reason not to treat peers with respect and in good faith.
 
7331poas said:
That makes little difference to me in the scope of this thread.
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Sure. But my point is he doesn't run OPM and when he did he wasn't making a profit.

But I do agree wholeheartedly with you that lack of dignity and respect should not be tolerated anywhere in the educational system. I'm interested in hearing how our members think we should balance open discussion while enforcing respect.
 
7331poas said:
Are you really oblivious to how pathetic this looks? Why be toxic to essentially misinformed premeds?
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People come here for realistic advice, not hugs and kisses.

EDIT: To follow up on gonnif 's posts, I find it appalling that people with literally 100s, if not even 1000s of hours in research can't be bothered to lift a finger to look at med school admissions websites to see what schools want, and are all about.
 
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Goro said:
People come here for realistic advice, not hugs and kisses
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Those things are not mutually exclusive Goro. that is your problem.

Goro said:
I find it appalling that people with literally 100s, if not even 1000s of hours in research can't be bothered to lift a finger to look at med school admissions websites to see what schools want, and are all about.
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I already wrote extensively above in response to this basic statement. To reiterate, schools often engage in misleading advertising to premeds regarding the standards necessary to gain admission. From a basic understanding of capitalism, students should not trust individual medical school's websites because their primary goal is to 1) attract a full class of quality students and 2) maximize the number of applications to their program in order to drive secondary fee revenue.

This phenomenon is fully displayed in the predatory practice of "holistic admissions" whereby schools attract low-stat applicants to apply to their schools (using encouraging statements on their own websites!) and then subsequently reject the applicant, sometimes via computerized screening.

"Research" is not equivalent to getting peer advice. What schools and the AAMC state on their official documents may not be truthful and may be framed in such a way to drive revenue. Even if this is not true, it is prudent for an applicant to ask SDN for confirmation and advice. At least, that should be the aim of the administration on this site.
 
Lee said:
Sure. But my point is he doesn't run OPM and when he did he wasn't making a profit.

But I do agree wholeheartedly with you that lack of dignity and respect should not be tolerated anywhere in the educational system. I'm interested in hearing how our members think we should balance open discussion while enforcing respect.
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I also agree @wholeheartedly 😛

I think tone is important when giving advice. I support blunt and constructive criticism but having an abrasive tone can undermine the advice and lead to tensions.
 
7331poas said:
Those things are not mutually exclusive Goro. that is your problem.



I already wrote extensively above in response to this basic statement. To reiterate, schools often engage in misleading advertising to premeds regarding the standards necessary to gain admission. From a basic understanding of capitalism, students should not trust individual medical school's websites because their primary goal is to 1) attract a full class of quality students and 2) maximize the number of applications to their program in order to drive secondary fee revenue.

This phenomenon is fully displayed in the predatory practice of "holistic admissions" whereby schools attract low-stat applicants to apply to their schools (using encouraging statements on their own websites!) and then subsequently reject the applicant, sometimes via computerized screening.

"Research" is not equivalent to getting peer advice. What schools and the AAMC state on their official documents may not be truthful and may be framed in such a way to drive revenue. Even if this is not true, it is prudent for an applicant to ask SDN for confirmation and advice. At least, that should be the aim of the administration on this site.
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It feels like you're frustrated just as much (if not more so) with the process as with this forum. I agree that the process is dishonest and opaque.
And when members of adcomms give advice on this site it is not "peer advice", it is asking for the equivalent of expert opinion. They are experts because they have seen thousands of people make the same mistakes over the years and it is frustrating when the guidance is disregarded. Or when you ask a question that is answered by plugging the exact text into the search bar and 20 threads pop up.
I will say-for the record-I don't recall seeing any real toxicity on the WAMC pages. There it is understood that each person is in their own unique situation. It is more when "I got a C, does that mean my application is tanked?" "Alcohol IA from 3 years ago. Oh no!" or "Ross seems awesome, why would anyone go USMD" threads recur that things get a bit nasty.
 
7331poas said:
Those things are not mutually exclusive Goro. that is your problem.



I already wrote extensively above in response to this basic statement. To reiterate, schools often engage in misleading advertising to premeds regarding the standards necessary to gain admission. From a basic understanding of capitalism, students should not trust individual medical school's websites because their primary goal is to 1) attract a full class of quality students and 2) maximize the number of applications to their program in order to drive secondary fee revenue.

This phenomenon is fully displayed in the predatory practice of "holistic admissions" whereby schools attract low-stat applicants to apply to their schools (using encouraging statements on their own websites!) and then subsequently reject the applicant, sometimes via computerized screening.

"Research" is not equivalent to getting peer advice. What schools and the AAMC state on their official documents may not be truthful and may be framed in such a way to drive revenue. Even if this is not true, it is prudent for an applicant to ask SDN for confirmation and advice. At least, that should be the aim of the administration on this site.
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I agree with your sentiment that good, honest advice and respect are not mutually exclusive.

That said, I disagree with your conclusion that "holistic admissions" is essentially a scam. I certainly feel that way sometimes, especially looking at a few schools on my list in particular, but I would never make a serious argument for it...it's just speculation.

We should make the good faith assumption that people who work for admissions are human beings who are genuinely interested in making the best possible choices for their medical school and not just interested in MCAT and GPA. I've been very vocal on these boards about why traditionally important admissions criteria are probably not very useful predictors of anything beyond a point, but that doesn't mean that I'm right about how the process is organized since I am, like you are here, speculating to some degree.

We can agree that med school websites are basically PR and beyond objective facts not a good source of information compared to, say, the MSAR or Adcom surveys. There are exceptions. The FAQ sections of WashU, Penn, and Cornell MSTPs are all very good. Dell and Michigan are both very transparent in how they evaluate applicants and when.
 
OneTwoThreeFour said:
And when members of adcomms give advice on this site it is not "peer advice", it is asking for the equivalent of expert opinion. They are experts because they have seen thousands of people make the same mistakes over the years and it is frustrating when the guidance is disregarded. Or when you ask a question that is answered by plugging the exact text into the search bar and 20 threads pop up.
I will say-for the record-I don't recall seeing any real toxicity on the WAMC pages. There it is understood that each person is in their own unique situation. It is more when "I got a C, does that mean my application is tanked?" "Alcohol IA from 3 years ago. Oh no!" or "Ross seems awesome, why would anyone go USMD" threads recur that things get a bit nasty.
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Then perhaps in those cases, our experts can walk away from the keyboard and allow regular users to answer in good faith and respectful fashion. Especially since those threads are apparently so common that regular users can capably disseminate advice on those topics.
 
Lucca said:
I agree with your sentiment that good, honest advice and respect are not mutually exclusive.

That said, I disagree with your conclusion that "holistic admissions" is essentially a scam. I certainly feel that way sometimes, especially looking at a few schools on my list in particular, but I would never make a serious argument for it...it's just speculation.

We should make the good faith assumption that people who work for admissions are human beings who are genuinely interested in making the best possible choices for their medical school and not just interested in MCAT and GPA. I've been very vocal on these boards about why traditionally important admissions criteria are probably not very useful predictors of anything beyond a point, but that doesn't mean that I'm right about how the process is organized since I am, like you are here, speculating to some degree.

We can agree that med school websites are basically PR and beyond objective facts not a good source of information compared to, say, the MSAR or Adcom surveys. There are exceptions. The FAQ sections of WashU, Penn, and Cornell MSTPs are all very good. Dell and Michigan are both very transparent in how they evaluate applicants and when.
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Well put. I do believe that admissions committees are probably not intentionally lying to applicants. However their inability to provide a complete set of data for applicants to intelligently apply creates the types of questions frequently posted on the pre-med forum.
 
7331poas said:
Then perhaps in those cases, our experts can walk away from the keyboard and allow regular users to answer in good faith and respectful fashion. Especially since those threads are apparently so common that regular users can capably disseminate advice on those topics.
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You are...awfully optimistic about the tone of the regular user of this site. I'd say they are in general less informed and less nuanced than those with a background in medical education.
 
OneTwoThreeFour said:
You are...awfully optimistic about the tone of the regular user of this site. I'd say they are in general less informed and less nuanced than those with a background in medical education.
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Did you read the conversation? I am talking about a specific set of threads the previous commentor described.
 
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