Seeing lots of strong apps with no interviews; feeling discouraged

[UCSD1984]

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I've been following the Pre-Dent forums for a few months now, and strongly utilized the DAT Discussion forums when I was studying for my DAT. I'm currently enrolled in courses on an informal post-bacc route because my undergrad grades aren't competitive at all. I'm currently enrolled in 12 upper division biology units and will be taking 16 units in winter and 16 units in spring. However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews. My stats are as follows --

Graduated in 2010 with a degree in Human Biology at UCSD: 2.75 cGPA (slightly less sGPA I believe, have not calculated it)

DAT Scores: PAT(20), QR(18), RC(21), Bio(20), GC(20), OC(19), TS(20), AA(20)

Currently enrolled in an informal post-bacc at UCSD taking 3 upper-div biology courses. Should be getting As in all of them, but there's a chance I'll get a B in one of them.

Will be taking 16 upper-div units next quarter (winter) and the quarter after that (spring). 12 of those units will be upper-div biology, the other 4 units will probably be a psychology or some other elective (I was recommended to do this, still unsure about that though. Perhaps 16 upper-div bio units would be wiser?)

I have very few shadowing and volunteering hours in at the moment (10 shadowing, 30 volunteering). I will be volunteering as much as I possibly can starting at the end of this quarter (in about 3 weeks).

There's a strong chance I won't be able to continue my Post-Bacc studies after I apply next cycle. I'm 27 and I'm very financially burdened. Dental school is my dream but I cannot continue to be unrealistic with myself if it isn't possible. I'm trying my hardest to do what I can in the following months leading up to applying, but I feel as though even that won't be enough.

Any help and input is appreciated, as always. A lot of you on these forums know me through the DAT threads, and I always value everyone's opinion. I appreciate your time.

 

[amalgamgrillz]

I've been following the Pre-Dent forums for a few months now, and strongly utilized the DAT Discussion forums when I was studying for my DAT. I'm currently enrolled in courses on an informal post-bacc route because my undergrad grades aren't competitive at all. I'm currently enrolled in 12 upper division biology units and will be taking 16 units in winter and 16 units in spring. However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews. My stats are as follows --

Graduated in 2010 with a degree in Human Biology at UCSD: 2.75 cGPA (slightly less sGPA I believe, have not calculated it)

DAT Scores: PAT(20), QR(18), RC(21), Bio(20), GC(20), OC(19), TS(20), AA(20)

Currently enrolled in an informal post-bacc at UCSD taking 3 upper-div biology courses. Should be getting As in all of them, but there's a chance I'll get a B in one of them.

Will be taking 16 upper-div units next quarter (winter) and the quarter after that (spring). 12 of those units will be upper-div biology, the other 4 units will probably be a psychology or some other elective (I was recommended to do this, still unsure about that though. Perhaps 16 upper-div bio units would be wiser?)

I have very few shadowing and volunteering hours in at the moment (10 shadowing, 30 volunteering). I will be volunteering as much as I possibly can starting at the end of this quarter (in about 3 weeks).

There's a strong chance I won't be able to continue my Post-Bacc studies after I apply next cycle. I'm 27 and I'm very financially burdened. Dental school is my dream but I cannot continue to be unrealistic with myself if it isn't possible. I'm trying my hardest to do what I can in the following months leading up to applying, but I feel as though even that won't be enough.

Any help and input is appreciated, as always. A lot of you on these forums know me through the DAT threads, and I always value everyone's opinion. I appreciate your time.

You know what's even scarier than strong applicants without interviews? Stronger applicants with interviews. I thought all these keeners with 4.0s would have personalities of pylons (and most of them do), but there have been a crapload of interviewees with insane GPAs/DATs/Personalities, and still have the time to start their own NGOs and charities, or go to the Olympics. But, I digress.

I think you best option would be to do a course based Master's program and nail it. Calculate how many undergraduate post-bacc credits of an 4.0 you will need to bring yourself up to at least a 3.0 in each GPA section. If it's too much, I would do the Master's. Because even if, overall, you can't get yourself to a 3.0 cGPA/sGPA, then at least you'll have a separate column showing that you got a 4.0 in a Master's.

 

[UCSD1984]

You know what's even scarier than strong applicants without interviews? Stronger applicants with interviews. I thought all these keeners with 4.0s would have personalities of pylons (and most of them do), but there have been a crapload of interviewees with insane GPAs/DATs/Personalities, and still have the time to start their own NGOs and charities, or go to the Olympics. But, I digress.

I think you best option would be to do a course based Master's program and nail it. Calculate how many undergraduate post-bacc credits of an 4.0 you will need to bring yourself up to at least a 3.0 in each GPA section. If it's too much, I would do the Master's. Because even if, overall, you can't get yourself to a 3.0 cGPA/sGPA, then at least you'll have a separate column showing that you got a 4.0 in a Master's.

That was my first choice, but by the time I realized I wanted to strengthen my application...it was too late to apply to any Master's programs. That's why I'm doing an informal post-bacc.

 

[uva09]

However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews.

Applications? You have seen complete applications posted online?

Please do not make the mistake of oversimplifying this process into a simple bout of numbers. Yes grade point average and test scores are important, but they aren't everything. In fact, they aren't even close to everything. That cumbersome AADSAS application featured a small army of categories above and beyond the two "statistics" that dominate this website and others.

Take everything you see on here with a grain of salt - or maybe a dump-truck load worth of salt. An online forum is a breeding ground for anxiety and paranoia. It's also a playground for twisted truths and complete dishonesty. No one is vetted on here. And pre-dents is far from scientific or accurate.

Dental School admission committees are in the business of matching prospective dentists, not simply finding individuals with the highest GPA and/or test scores. The process is complex and dynamic. Furthermore, it's personal and private. For that reason it all may seem erratic and irrational to the average outsider or applicant.

Stay confident. Do what you are doing. Do it well. And the rest will fall into place. You can't kill yourself over what you perceive is happening with other individuals and their own highly unique and personal applications.

 

[pk62281]

That was my first choice, but by the time I realized I wanted to strengthen my application...it was too late to apply to any Master's programs. That's why I'm doing an informal post-bacc.

With my 3.3 GPA and 23DAT, I've even had some schools tell me I need a masters.

IMO, you should go for a run, meditate, take a breather, etc. Reevaluate your plan to get into dental school, weigh your options, whatever. I think your direction is probably not going to work and you need to take some drastic measures to get where you need to be.

 

[UltimateHombre]

Graduated in 2010 with a degree in Human Biology at UCSD: 2.75 cGPA (slightly less sGPA I believe, have not calculated it)

DAT Scores: PAT(20), QR(18), RC(21), Bio(20), GC(20), OC(19), TS(20), AA(20)

I have very few shadowing and volunteering hours in at the moment (10 shadowing, 30 volunteering). I will be volunteering as much as I possibly can starting at the end of this quarter (in about 3 weeks).

There's a strong chance I won't be able to continue my Post-Bacc studies after I apply next cycle. I'm 27 and I'm very financially burdened. Dental school is my dream but I cannot continue to be unrealistic with myself if it isn't possible. I'm trying my hardest to do what I can in the following months leading up to applying, but I feel as though even that won't be enough.

I am going to shoot straight with you. At this point and time, it will take at least another year, maybe 2 to get you GPA to a point where it needs to be. You have to get it to at least a 3.0, but even then, that is still not competitive. And if you do manage to get it up to a 3.1, you will need to nail the DAT. The 20, although very respectable, is still just above average. You are going to need something to "Awe" the adcom. You also don't have very much EC's.... which doesn't help the matter. Most schools want to see around 100 shadowing hours.

You can keep going for the dream of dentistry, but you have to realize that it will take probably another 2 years and even then, it may not happen.

In all seriousness... have you considered podiatry? Temple and New York Pod schools actually accept the DAT in lieu of the MCAT. And to be honest, if you apply early, with that good of a DAT (most DAT's they see are in the 17 range), and an upward trend in postbac... you might get in. Just some food for thought... The reason i suggest Podiatry, is that you said you have a lot of debt. So you might want to stick in the health field, where you can earn a high income.

Again, i am not trying to be a jerk, just trying to be honest with you. I really hope everything works out in your best interest!! Best of luck!!!

 

[UCSD1984]

With my 3.3 GPA and 23DAT, I've even had some schools tell me I need a masters.

IMO, you should go for a run, meditate, take a breather, etc. Reevaluate your plan to get into dental school, weigh your options, whatever. I think your direction is probably not going to work and you need to take some drastic measures to get where you need to be.

Drastic measures such as what though? I can't imagine what else I could do besides what I'm doing now...

 

[UCSD1984]

I am going to shoot straight with you. At this point and time, it will take at least another year, maybe 2 to get you GPA to a point where it needs to be. You have to get it to at least a 3.0, but even then, that is still not competitive. And if you do manage to get it up to a 3.1, you will need to nail the DAT. The 20, although very respectable, is still just above average. You are going to need something to "Awe" the adcom. You also don't have very much EC's.... which doesn't help the matter. Most schools want to see around 100 shadowing hours.

You can keep going for the dream of dentistry, but you have to realize that it will take probably another 2 years and even then, it may not happen.

In all seriousness... have you considered podiatry? Temple and New York Pod schools actually accept the DAT in lieu of the MCAT. And to be honest, if you apply early, with that good of a DAT (most DAT's they see are in the 17 range), and an upward trend in postbac... you might get in. Just some food for thought... The reason i suggest Podiatry, is that you said you have a lot of debt. So you might want to stick in the health field, where you can earn a high income.

Again, i am not trying to be a jerk, just trying to be honest with you. I really hope everything works out in your best interest!! Best of luck!!!

I appreciate the response. Podiatry is not a field that interests me that much. I'm beginning to think it would be best if I quit my post-bacc now rather than waste 7 more months of my life.

 

[UCSD1984]

However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews.

Applications? You have seen complete applications posted online?

Please do not make the mistake of oversimplifying this process into a simple bout of numbers. Yes grade point average and test scores are important, but they aren't everything. In fact, they aren't even close to everything. That cumbersome AADSAS application featured a small army of categories above and beyond the two "statistics" that dominate this website and others.

Take everything you see on here with a grain of salt - or maybe a dump-truck load worth of salt. An online forum is a breeding ground for anxiety and paranoia. It's also a playground for twisted truths and complete dishonesty. No one is vetted on here. And pre-dents is far from scientific or accurate.

Dental School admission committees are in the business of matching prospective dentists, not simply finding individuals with the highest GPA and/or test scores. The process is complex and dynamic. Furthermore, it's personal and private. For that reason it all may seem erratic and irrational to the average outsider or applicant.

Stay confident. Do what you are doing. Do it well. And the rest will fall into place. You can't kill yourself over what you perceive is happening with other individuals and their own highly unique and personal applications.

Thank you for the uplifting response, but according to all the other responses...I should feel doubtful.

 

[uva09]

Call or email dental schools. Many schools will allow you to meet personally with the dean of admissions or someone else within the department. Sit down and ask the important questions directly.

You aren't going to get reputable advice from a bunch of people on here that have zero relevant experience or knowledge on the subject. And no, applying to dental school or being a current dental student does not then make anyone an expert or even remotely worthy of providing sound advice on matters such as this.

We can speculate. You need to get the right information in order to make the wise decisions. You may need to get a Masters, you may need to retake the DAT, you may need to do nothing at all. No one on here can say for sure. And why would you base choices of this magnitude on speculation?

 

[amanda9717]

Call or email dental schools. Many schools will allow you to meet personally with the dean of admissions or someone else within the department. Sit down and ask the important questions directly.

You aren't going to get reputable advice from a bunch of people on here that have zero relevant experience or knowledge on the subject. And no, applying to dental school or being a current dental student does not then make anyone an expert or even remotely worthy of providing sound advice on matters such as this.

We can speculate. You need to get the right information in order to make the wise decisions. You may need to get a Masters, you may need to retake the DAT, you may need to do nothing at all. No one on here can say for sure. And why would you base choices of this magnitude on speculation?

Listen to uva09, he (or she?) is wise.. Best of luck to you!

 

[Golfguy]

Dude, call the schools that you are interested in immediately, especially your state school. Ask the what you need to do to become competitive. Arrange a meeting. That has helped me tremendously so far.

 

[UCSD1984]

Dude, call the schools that you are interested in immediately, especially your state school. Ask the what you need to do to become competitive. Arrange a meeting. That has helped me tremendously so far.

I can't imagine them telling me anything I don't already know though. What could they possibly tell me? "Take more classes, get As, do volunteer work, rinse and repeat for 3 more years?"

 

[KenKim]

However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews.

Applications? You have seen complete applications posted online?

Please do not make the mistake of oversimplifying this process into a simple bout of numbers. Yes grade point average and test scores are important, but they aren't everything. In fact, they aren't even close to everything. That cumbersome AADSAS application featured a small army of categories above and beyond the two "statistics" that dominate this website and others.

Take everything you see on here with a grain of salt - or maybe a dump-truck load worth of salt. An online forum is a breeding ground for anxiety and paranoia. It's also a playground for twisted truths and complete dishonesty. No one is vetted on here. And pre-dents is far from scientific or accurate.

Dental School admission committees are in the business of matching prospective dentists, not simply finding individuals with the highest GPA and/or test scores. The process is complex and dynamic. Furthermore, it's personal and private. For that reason it all may seem erratic and irrational to the average outsider or applicant.

Stay confident. Do what you are doing. Do it well. And the rest will fall into place. You can't kill yourself over what you perceive is happening with other individuals and their own highly unique and personal applications.

Ah i see that you are new. Let me clarify something for u. I have confirmed with all 6 of my schools i interviewed at that all dental schools have a literal math formula to determine how competitive we are. One school even give us the long formula during the interview. So yes it is pretty much a number game. There are alot of misconception that numbers arnt everything. but in reality numbers determine whether you get acceptance or not 95% of the time. also there is a huge misconception that once you get an interview, everyone who got an interview has an equal chance of getting acceptance. in reality its not true. for example unlv weighs interview as 25% of your acceptance(this is true) so even if u ace the interview but have poor numbers then no acceptance. u see?

 

[uva09]

Please, by all means KenKim, enlighten us by posting these overarching formulas you speak of...

First of all you need to qualify what you mean by "numbers". Are the "numbers" you are referring to strictly an applicant's GPA and DAT scores? What other "numbers" are involved in your egregious generalizations?

And exactly where did you get this bold statement that "numbers" determine acceptance fate 95% of the time?

A formula used to access the competitiveness of an applicant does not then correlate to making sweeping decisions on individual's with regards to admissions.

Furthermore, I have yet to see anyone propagate a theory that everyone who is interviewed has an equal chance at admission. Clearly, this is not true so I am not exactly sure what you think you are clarifying with that statement. However, at many schools, being afforded an interview is an indication that the applicant's academics are within accepted standards.

And the statistics allow you to group applicants into larger categories. For example, at a state school, an OOS applicant might have a 1/50 shot at an interview as opposed to a 1/5 shot for an in-state applicant. Those odds may shift as an interviewed OOS candidate may then have a 1/5 chance at admission while an interviewed in-state applicant has a 1/3 shot at admission. Clearly, these numbers vary from school to school (i.e. some state schools accept zero OOS students, etc.) and depend on the type of school, among other things. And comparing statistics or "chances" between individual candidates and groups of candidates within a given categorical definition never yields the same data for analysis.

The ONLY element of your application that is "standard" is your DAT score. That is it. And even the DAT is subject to consideration as different tests are in fact different, and some students may have tested QR with a calculator feature, others without - among other slight variations. Everything else is highly unique and subject to personal review. If this process was just about numbers then why wouldn't the AADSAS application consist of one page, with two blanks - plugging in your DAT and GPA values?

Not all GPA values carry the same weight for brutally obvious reasons. A 4.0 from Stanford would most assuredly mean something different than a 4.0 from a Community College just as a 3.3 from Harvard would mean something different than a 3.3 from a Community College. And I could extend this line of reasoning to any number of other qualifying factors in one's application. Everything is case by case and unique to the individual.

I am not at all surprised that dental schools told you they use some formula - they probably said this to shut you up and to satiate those prospective candidates that are otherwise incapable of wrapping their minds around the underlying fact that dental admissions, like virtually every other form of education admissions, is inherently subjective and impossible to label as any one thing. There are always outliers and exceptions. Formulas are used to some degree by many programs as an initial review measure but to say that formulas represent the de facto standard of determination is ludicrous and simply false.

Are there standards and norms with regards to admissions? Yes. Do these standards and norms often involve numbers of some kind? Sure. But to extend that fact to encompass the entire process is patently incorrect and demonstrates an inability on your part to understand how dynamic and complex this process is.

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

Is a strong candidate without any interviews, really a strong candidate?


Disclaimer... late slow poke appliers are excluded 😛

 

[amalgamgrillz]

Please, by all means KenKim, enlighten us by posting these overarching formulas you speak of...

I've spoken to a couple of deans who said their schools do something similar. They literally put your DAT and GPAs in columns and rank all the applicants from highest to lowest. If you don't show up on at least one list, then you will get weeded out.

Also, you get certain scores for your interview, GPA, DAT, etc. (using different weighted percentages), they calculate an overall score for you.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

I've spoken to a couple of deans who said their schools do something similar. They literally put your DAT and GPAs in columns and rank all the applicants from highest to lowest. If you don't show up on at least one list, then you will get weeded out.

Also, you get certain scores for your interview, GPA, DAT, etc. (using different weighted percentages), they calculate an overall score for you.

This is how it's done for Canadian schools at least. Most schools here only look at your GPA, DAT and interview. The interview is standardised and is scored out of 35. Many schools advertise their weighting formula on their websites for determining who gains admission, ie. 60% GPA, 10-15% DAT and 25-30% interview.

As a result, it IS a numbers game, for many schools. There are so many applicants and so little time to go through them that there is little room for subjectivity outside of judging how fleshed out or impressive your ECs are. And even then, it's probably going to end up being boiled down to a score that they give you in multiple categories. The applicants with the highest cumulative numbers get interviews, and after the interviews, acceptances.

There is no feasible way adcoms could be that thorough and dissect each application so sensitively, unfortunately.

 

[KenKim]

Please, by all means KenKim, enlighten us by posting these overarching formulas you speak of...

[(Science GPA + Cum. GPA)/8] X [RC/30] X [(BIO + OC + QR)/90] X 75

this is the exact formula you get at the interview at UNLV. the other 25 points is from the interview. if the total number you get is over 52 you are competitive. if you are over 55, its automatic acceptance.

All schools have formulas. i asked for it at my interviews but they said its classified information. but they did confirm that they use a formula

HAVE I ENLIGHTENED YOU NOW?

I didnt say its 100% a number game. i said 95%. I would say the other 5% is from your LOR Personal statement etc. That 5% is needed because you if have an applicant with the same score, you would use that 5% to gauge how well qualified the applicant is.

I was once like you. naive. hoping numbers didnt mean anything.

 

[pk62281]

[(Science GPA + Cum. GPA)/8] X [RC/30] X [(BIO + OC + QR)/90] X 75

this is the exact formula you get at the interview at UNLV. the other 25 points is from the interview. if the total number you get is over 52 you are competitive. if you are over 55, its automatic acceptance.

All schools have formulas. i asked for it at my interviews but they said its classified information. but they did confirm that they use a formula

HAVE I ENLIGHTENED YOU NOW?

I didnt say its 100% a number game. i said 95%. I would say the other 5% is from your LOR Personal statement etc. That 5% is needed because you if have an applicant with the same score, you would use that 5% to gauge how well qualified the applicant is.

I was once like you. naive. hoping numbers didnt mean anything.

wow they dont put PAT or GCHEM in the mix?

 

[uva09]

This is a discusion about the pre-interview side of admissions - i.e. what goes into the process of assigning interviews. Once you receive an interview it becomes much, much less about the so-called 'numbers'. Most Dental Schools consider an interviewed applicant within said school's academic standards.

Since Dental Schools operate on a rolling admissions model, there would never be an opportunity for a school to tally up every candidate in list form prior to making interview designations. That would require a Dental School to wait until the application deadlines before making any conclusions. Interview decisions are made throughout the cycle based upon which files are complete at a particular point in time. The strength of the applicant pool will vary significantly throughout the term.

While it is true that many, if not most, Dental Schools assign scores and numbers to applicants based upon various criterion such as Interviews, GPA's, or Test Scores - they are primarily designed as a tool to help mitigate the volume of applicants, not as an end all be all measure. At the end of the day, the process is still a person or person(s) evaluating another human being, not just a portfolio of numbers and scores. And with the exclusion of schools that feature stringent cut-offs for DAT/GPA scores, there will always be outliers and exceptions due to mitigating circumstances, the likes of which number in the thousands, upon thousands.

There is a profound difference between assigning percentage values to certain admission criteria - i.e. DAT, GPA, Interview - and determining how the individual values are assigned. And with regards to an element like the GPA, there are many circumstantial factors that could dictate a score for that 60% component or whatever the case may be (where did the person go to school, what were the fields of study, how long did it take to graduate, how long has the person been out of school, strength of program, foreign student, language barriers, disciplinary rulings, employment, student-athlete status, scholarships, out-of-state vs. in-state, etc...). The list goes on and on. There is inherent subjectivity involved as there is no feasible way a formula could account for all of the variation within the primary criterion margins.

 

[oreoson]

[(Science GPA + Cum. GPA)/8] X [RC/30] X [(BIO + OC + QR)/90] X 75

this is the exact formula you get at the interview at UNLV. the other 25 points is from the interview. if the total number you get is over 52 you are competitive. if you are over 55, its automatic acceptance.

All schools have formulas. i asked for it at my interviews but they said its classified information. but they did confirm that they use a formula

HAVE I ENLIGHTENED YOU NOW?

I didnt say its 100% a number game. i said 95%. I would say the other 5% is from your LOR Personal statement etc. That 5% is needed because you if have an applicant with the same score, you would use that 5% to gauge how well qualified the applicant is.

I was once like you. naive. hoping numbers didnt mean anything.

So, you are saying, personal statement, letters of recoomendation, community service, research/publications, dental experience, life experience (overcoming hardship), employment experience, interview, etc only account for 5%?
I doubt it.

 

[uva09]

[(Science GPA + Cum. GPA)/8] X [RC/30] X [(BIO + OC + QR)/90] X 75

this is the exact formula you get at the interview at UNLV. the other 25 points is from the interview. if the total number you get is over 52 you are competitive. if you are over 55, its automatic acceptance.

All schools have formulas. i asked for it at my interviews but they said its classified information. but they did confirm that they use a formula

HAVE I ENLIGHTENED YOU NOW?

I didnt say its 100% a number game. i said 95%. I would say the other 5% is from your LOR Personal statement etc. That 5% is needed because you if have an applicant with the same score, you would use that 5% to gauge how well qualified the applicant is.

I was once like you. naive. hoping numbers didnt mean anything.

Nice work. You listed ONE formula for ONE school out of the 60+ Dental Schools in the United States.

So, no, you haven't enlightened me.

That formula, as others have noted, doesn't take into account all of the DAT sections, nor does it take into account extra-curricular's, essays, recommendations, personal attributes, demographics, and about a million other mitigating factors. And it doesn't account for variation in any of those categories or sub-categories (i.e. different weight of GPA values).

And your number of 95% is pure speculation, nothing more.

I never once said the numbers don't mean anything. Obviously they do. I did, however, multiple times express the fact that the numbers aren't everything. And I highlighted and continue to highlight the fact that there is a subjective element in all admissions processes.

I am not naive. Unlike you, I have been through and completed this process. I spent two years working as a Dental Student volunteer during admissions season and now I help run the student interviews. I sit down with the admissions committee. I know exactly what happens.

I am in the business of encouraging others who get turned away by misinformation, speculation, and generalizations on this forum. If you want to propagate those generalizations, feel free.

Yawn. Move along.

 

[KenKim]

Nice work. You listed ONE formula for ONE school out of the 60+ Dental Schools in the United States.

So, no, you haven't enlightened me.

That formula, as others have noted, doesn't take into account all of the DAT sections, nor does it take into account extra-curricular's, essays, recommendations, personal attributes, demographics, and about a million other mitigating factors. And it doesn't account for variation in any of those categories or sub-categories (i.e. different weight of GPA values).

And your number of 95% is pure speculation, nothing more.

I never once said the numbers don't mean anything. Obviously they do. I did, however, multiple times express the fact that the numbers aren't everything. And I highlighted and continue to highlight the fact that there is a subjective element in all admissions processes.

I am not naive. Unlike you, I have been through and completed this process. I spent two years working as a Dental Student volunteer during admissions season and now I help run the student interviews. I sit down with the admissions committee. I know exactly what happens.

I am in the business of encouraging others who get turned away by misinformation, speculation, and generalizations on this forum. If you want to propagate those generalizations, feel free.

Yawn. Move along.

I gave you evidence right front of your face and you deny it... Let me repeat what the dean told me at the interview. "all schools use a formula to gauge students" and ofcourse the formula will be different among schools. Why did unlv decide to take out PAT and GCHEM? Y are you asking me? ask UNLV LOL i dont know.

 

[YoHomey]

You would be or would've been better off taking your post-bac courses at nearby SDSU. I know you graduated from UCSD and may feel more comfortable there and would have everything on one transcript, but let's admit that UCSD is a very nerdy and competitive school whereas SDSU would be a cake walk. I hope you get all A's in your courses because that would've been guaranteed at SDSU, and you really need to increase your GPA to above 3.0 as much as possible.

 

[UCSD1984]

[(Science GPA + Cum. GPA)/8] X [RC/30] X [(BIO + OC + QR)/90] X 75

this is the exact formula you get at the interview at UNLV. the other 25 points is from the interview. if the total number you get is over 52 you are competitive. if you are over 55, its automatic acceptance.

All schools have formulas. i asked for it at my interviews but they said its classified information. but they did confirm that they use a formula

HAVE I ENLIGHTENED YOU NOW?

I didnt say its 100% a number game. i said 95%. I would say the other 5% is from your LOR Personal statement etc. That 5% is needed because you if have an applicant with the same score, you would use that 5% to gauge how well qualified the applicant is.

I was once like you. naive. hoping numbers didnt mean anything.

I just used that formula to calculate someone's "chances" assuming they do sub-par on an interview. With a 4.0 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA, 22s on the DAT across the board...they aren't guaranteed admission. Numbers game huh? I'm not naive, I most definitely understand the importance of numbers when applying...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. But you're relying far too heavily on them. Where are LoRs? PERSONAL STATEMENT? According to that formula, even of the most impeccable applicants will get rejected from UNLV.

Case in point: average accepted GPA and DAT for UNLV is roughly 3.5 and 20.5 DAT. According to your "golden formula", even if a person with those stats NAILS the interview, they still have a crappy "chance" of getting accepted. Not sure why you're obsessed with a formula man.

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[bumpntrunk]

I am 34 yrs old, my DAT AA is not as good as the person posting, though my GPA is where it needs to be at about 3.6. I do have a masters degree (though Im not sure if it helped any) and I got an interview with the first school I sent a completed application to. I think if they can get their GPA up to a 3.0 or better then they have as much a chance as anyone (dependent on how competitive the school is of course). I have some shadowing hours and some volunteer work but nothing worth mentioning. You dont need to be a superhero to score an interview, just try your best.

 

[KenKim]

I just used that formula to calculate someone's "chances" assuming they do sub-par on an interview. With a 4.0 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA, 22s on the DAT across the board...they aren't guaranteed admission. Numbers game huh? I'm not naive, I most definitely understand the importance of numbers when applying...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. But you're relying far too heavily on them. Where are LoRs? PERSONAL STATEMENT? According to that formula, even of the most impeccable applicants will get rejected from UNLV.

Case in point: average accepted GPA and DAT for UNLV is roughly 3.5 and 20.5 DAT. According to your "golden formula", even if a person with those stats NAILS the interview, they still have a crappy "chance" of getting accepted. Not sure why you're obsessed with a formula man.

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check ur math again i have 3.4 gpa and my score ended up being 53 assuming perfect interview of 25 points

 

[KenKim]

I just used that formula to calculate someone's "chances" assuming they do sub-par on an interview. With a 4.0 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA, 22s on the DAT across the board...they aren't guaranteed admission. Numbers game huh? I'm not naive, I most definitely understand the importance of numbers when applying...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. But you're relying far too heavily on them. Where are LoRs? PERSONAL STATEMENT? According to that formula, even of the most impeccable applicants will get rejected from UNLV.

Case in point: average accepted GPA and DAT for UNLV is roughly 3.5 and 20.5 DAT. According to your "golden formula", even if a person with those stats NAILS the interview, they still have a crappy "chance" of getting accepted. Not sure why you're obsessed with a formula man.

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LOL yea you did your calculation wrong. with 4.0 GPA and 22s the score comes out to 65.3 remember i said above 55 is an automatic acceptance? 65.3 is wayyyyy above automatic acceptance score. that scale is actually lower for instate students. dont remember exact numbers but yea

 

[journeybegins]

I've been following the Pre-Dent forums for a few months now, and strongly utilized the DAT Discussion forums when I was studying for my DAT. I'm currently enrolled in courses on an informal post-bacc route because my undergrad grades aren't competitive at all. I'm currently enrolled in 12 upper division biology units and will be taking 16 units in winter and 16 units in spring. However, I'm seeing so many applicants whose applications are so much stronger than mine, but yet are still receiving no interviews. My stats are as follows --

Graduated in 2010 with a degree in Human Biology at UCSD: 2.75 cGPA (slightly less sGPA I believe, have not calculated it)

DAT Scores: PAT(20), QR(18), RC(21), Bio(20), GC(20), OC(19), TS(20), AA(20)

Currently enrolled in an informal post-bacc at UCSD taking 3 upper-div biology courses. Should be getting As in all of them, but there's a chance I'll get a B in one of them.

Will be taking 16 upper-div units next quarter (winter) and the quarter after that (spring). 12 of those units will be upper-div biology, the other 4 units will probably be a psychology or some other elective (I was recommended to do this, still unsure about that though. Perhaps 16 upper-div bio units would be wiser?)

I have very few shadowing and volunteering hours in at the moment (10 shadowing, 30 volunteering). I will be volunteering as much as I possibly can starting at the end of this quarter (in about 3 weeks).

There's a strong chance I won't be able to continue my Post-Bacc studies after I apply next cycle. I'm 27 and I'm very financially burdened. Dental school is my dream but I cannot continue to be unrealistic with myself if it isn't possible. I'm trying my hardest to do what I can in the following months leading up to applying, but I feel as though even that won't be enough.

Any help and input is appreciated, as always. A lot of you on these forums know me through the DAT threads, and I always value everyone's opinion. I appreciate your time.

1. You need to increase your GPA to above a 3.0 to apply, or it might be a waste to apply. Try to get it as high as possible, of course. You really need to 4.0 your quarters.

2. I believe that numbers are important, but ECs/interview are the other half. To compensate for your GPA, you need to have stronger ECs. Two people I know that go to UCSD had a 3.0-3.1 got into dental school--one at ASDOH and one at Maryland. However, even though their GPAs were not that great, I think they have a diverse amount of ECs and a good amount of that.

HOWEVER, never forget that doing well in school is a much higher priority than ECs. Just because I encourage doing ECs should not mean that you should neglect school. Just do ECs when you can. I used to spend a lot of time on ECs my first 2 years, and then I realized if 2 applicants get rejected, and one had a low GPA/strong ECs, and the other had a high GPA/no ECs. The applicant with the high GPA will have a better chance because you can always build on experiences and skills. However, a transcript can't really be changed.

So, I just recommend doing ECs when you can because having ECs will help. ECs also can't be done overnight.

3. When you're ready, you should retake your DAT and aim to get higher scores. Increasing your DAT scores will increase your chances.

4. There are lots of resources at UCSD, use it =)

5. Consider the SFSU Dental Post-Bac after this year?...You can try a master's if you prefer that. Whichever is cheaper=)

 

[journeybegins]

I also would recommend the psychology class because those require a little work, but psychology is pretty easy. But choose the psychology class topic that you would be the most interested in. The more interested you are, the better you'll likely do.

3 science classes + 1 psychology is fine. I would not do 4 science classes because finals are brutal during a quarter system. What if they all turn out to be cumulative? Finals usually are around 40-50% of your grade. The most important thing right now is to find ways to boost your GPA.

 

[UCSD1984]

1. You need to increase your GPA to above a 3.0 to apply, or it might be a waste to apply. Try to get it as high as possible, of course. You really need to 4.0 your quarters.

2. I believe that numbers are important, but ECs/interview are the other half. To compensate for your GPA, you need to have stronger ECs. Two people I know that go to UCSD had a 3.0-3.1 got into dental school--one at ASDOH and one at Maryland. However, even though their GPAs were not that great, I think they have a diverse amount of ECs and a good amount of that.

HOWEVER, never forget that doing well in school is a much higher priority than ECs. Just because I encourage doing ECs should not mean that you should neglect school. Just do ECs when you can. I used to spend a lot of time on ECs my first 2 years, and then I realized if 2 applicants get rejected, and one had a low GPA/strong ECs, and the other had a high GPA/no ECs. The applicant with the high GPA will have a better chance because you can always build on experiences and skills. However, a transcript can't really be changed.

So, I just recommend doing ECs when you can because having ECs will help. ECs also can't be done overnight.

3. When you're ready, you should retake your DAT and aim to get higher scores. Increasing your DAT scores will increase your chances.

4. There are lots of resources at UCSD, use it =)

5. Consider the SFSU Dental Post-Bac after this year?...You can try a master's if you prefer that. Whichever is cheaper=)

I appreciate the response. Questions:

1.) Several people have told me not to retake the DAT. I'm now seeing advice from you that I should. Guess this isn't really a question...more of a "Do I really have to retake it?" Because I'm afraid I won't score that much better, and that won't look good at all.

2.) You don't feel as though one year of informal post-bacc of 3.8-4.0 GPA would be sufficient I take it? I don't either, but I'm hoping for the best because I don't think I can continue after this year....I'm 27 and I have financial burdens and several other various factors.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[UCSD1984]

LOL yea you did your calculation wrong. with 4.0 GPA and 22s the score comes out to 65.3 remember i said above 55 is an automatic acceptance? 65.3 is wayyyyy above automatic acceptance score. that scale is actually lower for instate students. dont remember exact numbers but yea

Well regardless, I don't think focusing on an equation is the proper way to go about checking your chances for acceptance. Good guide-line? Absolutely. Concrete? Absolutely not.

 

[MouthDoc]

I can't imagine them telling me anything I don't already know though. What could they possibly tell me? "Take more classes, get As, do volunteer work, rinse and repeat for 3 more years?"

I could agree with that. I'm tuning 27 next week, and I'm running out of money. I don't want to be too old to start dental school if I have nothing to show for it in my previous years. I'm in an MBS program, but don't really know if it's worth it in the end. All of the dental advisers will just keep telling you to bring up your GPA, work on you DAT, etc. until the cows come home, but it's a lot of time and money for only a possibility to get in...there's no guarantee. I have roughly the same GPA as you, but I'm beginning to feel discouraged. I messed up in undergrad, and there doesn't seem to be a way to make up for it.

 

[journeybegins]

I appreciate the response. Questions:

1.) Several people have told me not to retake the DAT. I'm now seeing advice from you that I should. Guess this isn't really a question...more of a "Do I really have to retake it?" Because I'm afraid I won't score that much better, and that won't look good at all.

2.) You don't feel as though one year of informal post-bacc of 3.8-4.0 GPA would be sufficient I take it? I don't either, but I'm hoping for the best because I don't think I can continue after this year....I'm 27 and I have financial burdens and several other various factors.

Thanks again for the input.

1) Your DAT scores are good enough as an applicant. Don't retake if you don't think you can score that much better, or if you don't have the drive to do well on it anymore. Don't use your good current DAT scores as a clutch if you're deciding to retake because the goal of a retake is to improve. If you don't think you can improve, then it's best not to take the risk.

My DAT scores are similar to yours, plus or minus 1 or 2 points in each section, but I also have a 20/20/22. I'm happy with them because I'm not good with standardized tests. I know they're not that high, but the scores will be "good enough" to get accepted. I also already beat myself up emotionally for 3.5+ months studying. So, I'm just going to take the scores and run with them because there's no guarantee that I'll do better. Neither of my DAT scores or GPAs are that high, but they are within the range of averages to get accepted. So that's why I know I won't retake.

However, your only problem is your GPA. In which case, it's similar to this person's situation. If you look at this person's breakdown, admission officers suggested those 2 things for that person to improve. 1) get a master's or 2) retake the DAT.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=866896

I only suggest retaking the DAT because that helps greatly against lower GPA. That's the quickest way, but it's definitely not easy to do.

Sorry that I'm rambling, but my answer is: No, you don't NEED to retake the DATs. If you want to keep your current scores, that's completely fine. However, if you think you can do better and if you want to increase your chances, retaking your DAT is a great, quicker way. It's a lot of work that you have to put in (as you've seen in studying for the DATs the first time) so be prepared for that.

2) Is a one-year informal post-bac enough?

It can be if you do very, very well. With lower GPAs, you have the potential to increase more drastically than higher GPAs with one year of informal post-bac at UCSD. Have you used the GPA Calculator that UCSD has?

Just put in how many units you're planning to take and see what GPA you can get out of it by the end of the year if you get straight A's or close to it. How high would your GPA be increased?

Just get it up to as high as you can. If it's past 3.0, then you can give it a shot in applying next cycle. Just wait and see what GPA you're at to see if you need more schooling. What I would do is if finances are the issue, I'd go ahead and continue taking 1-2 classes at a community college a semester after the one year informal post-bac. It will help you increase your GPA little by little and it's cheaper. Community college classes are ridiculously cheap! =)

I'm doing that option right now. I just graduated, but I need to take things like... Anatomy. So, I'm planning to take 1-2 CC classes to keep on my toes. Most UCs don't have anatomy, and it's required for both Midwestern dental schools. You can also pick up other electives that schools like to see: sculpture, ceramics, business/econ (don't take it at UCSD), speech, public speaking, conversational Spanish, etc. Taking those additional classes might not help your science, but it'll help your GPA.

If you're financially burdened after this year, then try that option of working and taking 1-2 CC classes when you can. But please try to get a 3.8-4.0 in your quarters at UCSD! This year is important! If you can make a comeback in this year, then I'm sure dental schools will see it and may be forgiving. Also, applying early in June will help with lower stats to land interviews. If you apply later with lower stats, chances of interviews might be less. So, make sure you apply early!

Good luck, I'll be rooting for you

 

[sacapuntas]

You're going to need to work on your attitude to have a realistic shot. You will get even more burnt out if you keep worrying about what you cannot control.

I think you need to not go on SDN until after each semester to check in if you need to. No need for discouragement. All you can do is get A's in your classes and work towards your goal of dentistry.

Don't give up because of money if dentistry is your dream. You are not that old, you will regret it forever if you gave up.

Your chances of a 1 year post-bacc being sufficient probably aren't that good, but stick another year into there and you have 2 straight years of 3.8 + GPA...that looks pretty damn good.


Hang in there, be mentally stronger, and I repeat, stay off SDN for your own sanity!

 

[UCSD1984]

1) Your DAT scores are good enough as an applicant. Don't retake if you don't think you can score that much better, or if you don't have the drive to do well on it anymore. Don't use your good current DAT scores as a clutch if you're deciding to retake because the goal of a retake is to improve. If you don't think you can improve, then it's best not to take the risk.

My DAT scores are similar to yours, plus or minus 1 or 2 points in each section, but I also have a 20/20/22. I'm happy with them because I'm not good with standardized tests. I know they're not that high, but the scores will be "good enough" to get accepted. I also already beat myself up emotionally for 3.5+ months studying. So, I'm just going to take the scores and run with them because there's no guarantee that I'll do better. Neither of my DAT scores or GPAs are that high, but they are within the range of averages to get accepted. So that's why I know I won't retake.

However, your only problem is your GPA. In which case, it's similar to this person's situation. If you look at this person's breakdown, admission officers suggested those 2 things for that person to improve. 1) get a master's or 2) retake the DAT.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=866896

I only suggest retaking the DAT because that helps greatly against lower GPA. That's the quickest way, but it's definitely not easy to do.

Sorry that I'm rambling, but my answer is: No, you don't NEED to retake the DATs. If you want to keep your current scores, that's completely fine. However, if you think you can do better and if you want to increase your chances, retaking your DAT is a great, quicker way. It's a lot of work that you have to put in (as you've seen in studying for the DATs the first time) so be prepared for that.

2) Is a one-year informal post-bac enough?

It can be if you do very, very well. With lower GPAs, you have the potential to increase more drastically than higher GPAs with one year of informal post-bac at UCSD. Have you used the GPA Calculator that UCSD has?

Just put in how many units you're planning to take and see what GPA you can get out of it by the end of the year if you get straight A's or close to it. How high would your GPA be increased?

Just get it up to as high as you can. If it's past 3.0, then you can give it a shot in applying next cycle. Just wait and see what GPA you're at to see if you need more schooling. What I would do is if finances are the issue, I'd go ahead and continue taking 1-2 classes at a community college a semester after the one year informal post-bac. It will help you increase your GPA little by little and it's cheaper. Community college classes are ridiculously cheap! =)

I'm doing that option right now. I just graduated, but I need to take things like... Anatomy. So, I'm planning to take 1-2 CC classes to keep on my toes. Most UCs don't have anatomy, and it's required for both Midwestern dental schools. You can also pick up other electives that schools like to see: sculpture, ceramics, business/econ (don't take it at UCSD), speech, public speaking, conversational Spanish, etc. Taking those additional classes might not help your science, but it'll help your GPA.

If you're financially burdened after this year, then try that option of working and taking 1-2 CC classes when you can. But please try to get a 3.8-4.0 in your quarters at UCSD! This year is important! If you can make a comeback in this year, then I'm sure dental schools will see it and may be forgiving. Also, applying early in June will help with lower stats to land interviews. If you apply later with lower stats, chances of interviews might be less. So, make sure you apply early!

Good luck, I'll be rooting for you

Amazing response, I can't thank you enough. One last question: If I apply in June, can I retake the DAT 2-3 months later and update my application with my new scores? If I do retake the DAT, I'd want to dedicate all my time strictly to it and nothing else.

Also, does updating my application with the new scores (assuming I am able to do so), mark my application for re-review? How does it work exactly? Thanks again Journey, your response was more than I could have asked for. 👍

You're going to need to work on your attitude to have a realistic shot. You will get even more burnt out if you keep worrying about what you cannot control.

I think you need to not go on SDN until after each semester to check in if you need to. No need for discouragement. All you can do is get A's in your classes and work towards your goal of dentistry.

Don't give up because of money if dentistry is your dream. You are not that old, you will regret it forever if you gave up.

Your chances of a 1 year post-bacc being sufficient probably aren't that good, but stick another year into there and you have 2 straight years of 3.8 + GPA...that looks pretty damn good.

Hang in there, be mentally stronger, and I repeat, stay off SDN for your own sanity!

You make a solid point. I do definitely feel discouragement when I come on the forums from time to time. At the same time, however, the people on these forums are so friendly for the most part. I can't even list how many friends I made in the DAT Discussion forums because of how much help I was receiving. Kept in touch with a lot of people that were taking the DAT at the same time as me, and it was amazing to see all our breakdowns posted after studying in the same time window and reading each other's posts. It was very motivating.

But, I do know what you mean. I'll do my best to stay off unless I have serious inquiries. I'll be coming back to this thread for the next few days and after that, I'll stop. 👍

 

[journeybegins]

Amazing response, I can't thank you enough. One last question: If I apply in June, can I retake the DAT 2-3 months later and update my application with my new scores? If I do retake the DAT, I'd want to dedicate all my time strictly to it and nothing else.

Also, does updating my application with the new scores (assuming I am able to do so), mark my application for re-review? How does it work exactly? Thanks again Journey, your response was more than I could have asked for. 👍

Short answer:

1) Yes, you can retake the DAT 2-3 months later after you apply in June because a lot of the application process deals with the time it takes to process your application, then waiting for the schools to review your application, and make their decisions.

2) If you update your scores, AADSAS (the application system) just sends the new scores out to the schools again. I don't think they re-review your application. It's probably either they wait to get your new scores to REVIEW IT ONCE, or they already do a first glance at your application with your current DAT scores since your application is complete (nothing is missing since you do have current DAT scores) and already decided if they're going to interview you or reject you or make you wait longer.

Schools don't like to review applications that aren't complete because that's a waste of their time. They don't "re-review" applications once they've made a decision to interview you or reject you. So, it's a matter of whether a particular school sees your application as complete or not.


I will PM you a longer answer and some additional advice 🙂