Seeking guidance

[evaro]

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Hello. I am seeking guidance. I'm currently a sophomore, considering applying for '06, at UIUC studying electrical engineering. I love it, and my dream has always been to combine my loves for engineering innovation and medicine. Naturally, I have been thinking about grad school and/or medical school. I am currently working a laser and optics lab. I love the ideas and I find the "imagination at work" invigorating, but I can tell that I don't want to work in a lab my whole life and be behind the scenes. I want hands-on work in developing and installing artificial vision systems, or spinal cord repairing implants, for example. I'm also not sure that I would want to be a normal, practicing physician. I do think I would rather be a doctor who engineers rather than an engineer who works with doctors.

I truly respect that an MSTP program is a great commitment and the decision is not to be taken lightly. I suppose my first question is: how did all of you know that an MSTP is what you absolutely wanted and you couldn't settle with just being an MD or a PhD. Do you think my reasons are along the lines of the appropriate ones?

Academically, I'm in an interesting situation. Let me preface this part by saying that I am very sensitive to others' feelings, and I absolutely do not wish to come off pompous, although I am a bit stubborn. I am a very good EE student. At the moment, my GPA is 4. As far as classes are concerned, I'm in upper level undergrad courses and even a few grad courses already. If I were to apply to grad school, I would definitely apply to the top schools.

I decided to take the MCAT just to see what would happen, and I just got my scores back - 34R - 10V, 11B, 13P. I am admittedly naive about what the scores mean. I realize there are many people who would be overjoyed with these scores, although perhaps they do not match my GPA perfectly. Here's the real interesting part: I haven't taken a class in the chemistry or biology departments since AP in high school, and I don't really intend to take them in college. I have a very strong record of being a self learner, I don't want to waste my time taking classes whose material I feel I already understand, as hopefully evidenced by the MCAT scores. I would ask: "what would I gain by taking these classes? Maybe I'd get 15's on the MCAT sections?" Although all of my ECE classes are really applied physics and chemistry classes, I have only taken one semester in the physics department for a grade (I've passed out of many classes). Despite this, I still feel I have a more than ample scientific background and sufficient lab experience.

Given this, my next few questions are: are my scores near the range, or should I give it a second shot? If they are, in your personal opinion is an admissions committee going to look at my application and think, "this kid has potential" or, "this obnoxious jerk has utter disregard for the rules"? I realize that I don't meet the traditional prerequisites of "a year of everything, for a grade, with lab." Truth be told, I would be willing to take maybe a semester of something interesting like neuroscience or biochem, but boredom would destroy me in basic classes, even if it were an easy A. Also, would my engineering background carry any weight for the med school part of admissions? Do you have any suggestions on what I could be doing, or how I should present all of this?

Thank you for taking the time to read this long post. I appreciate any guidance and feedback that you can give. Because of the type of situation, I am unsure of where I can ask for advice and get warm reception. I'm hoping this crowd can empathize with my situation.

 

[BDavis]

Given this, my next few questions are: are my scores near the range, or should I give it a second shot? If they are, in your personal opinion is an admissions committee going to look at my application and think, "this kid has potential" or, "this obnoxious jerk has utter disregard for the rules"? Also, would my engineering background carry any weight for the med school part of admissions? Do you have any suggestions on what I could be doing, or how I should present all of this?

To apply for medical school, there are pre-requisites that you have to meet to even apply for medical school. I used AP credit to get out of biology courses, but the AP credit did not meet some medical school requirements so I had to take upper level biology courses. I took the MCAT after my sophomore year and one of the professors mentioned that I should look into M.D./Ph.D. programs since I was interested in biological research (even though my research up until then was in chemistry and nuclear physics). Your MCAT and GPA are in the range to apply for MSTP; the more important question is are you prepared to commit 7-10 years of your life to research and education? This is a personal decision that you have to make. Try not to base it on financial reasons such as "I will graduate with no debt". For some reason I never knew about MSTP until a professor mentioned it to me. Medical schools admit students from all backgrounds including engineers.

If there are "rules for admission", I don't know what they are. I know I started out a chemical engineer, did research in physics and organic chemistry, used AP credit for biology classes, did not join pre-med clubs or have a pre-med advisor, worked for the chemical industry for a summer and graduated a chemistry major. I did however volunteer in a clinic that provided prenatal care to indigent patients.

Good luck.

 

[agp4]

I don't remember when MD/PhD became engrained in my mind, but it probably started somewhere around the same time as you. I immediately started doing research in undergrad and absolutely couldn't imagine a life away from the bench. On the other hand, I was also frustrated with how obscure scientific research could be and didn't want to spend my life piddling away at a random protein in some strange worm (though I have respect for those who do). MD/PhD made the perfect sense for what I was interested in. Like BDavis said above, in the end its a personal decision and one not to be taken lightly. 7-10 years of your life is a long time to spend, especially if its not something you're 100% behind.

I can understand your sentiment in not wanting to take science classes, but I think it might help you in the end. A lot of med schools require classes and labs in all of the sciences (usually two semesters each of physics, general chemistry, and organic as well as some variable number of credits in biology with lab). I lucked out since I was a biomed engineer - I was able to get away with listing a lot of my engineering classes as prereqs for med school. I still took a large load of molecular biology alongside my engineering classes out of my own interest. There's also the fact that medical school, perhaps unfortunately, is very strongly structured like the classes you would take in science classes. If your engineering classes are anything like mine were, they were based on understanding fundamental concepts and equations and then applying them to problems/designs. Medical school classes are pretty different. Many classes, particularly anatomy, are very heavy on the memorization of random details and it might serve you to at least get a taste of that style of learning before med school.

As for your MCAT, I think its very competitive. I scored very similarly to you, and it's all the more remarkable that you scored so highly in your sophomore year. I'd suggest you talk to a pre-med counselor about taking it again and if you choose to take it again, be darned sure you will improve your score by at least two points.

My impression is that MSTP directors are looking for motivated people who are reasonably bright, and more importantly, committed to the program. The program, because of its time, has a high turnover for students who decide to go all MD or all PhD and it stinks because the funding was lost on the person who dropped out. So they want people who are really passionate about doing research and applying it to medicine.

Finally, I applaud that you're more interesting in taking a harder, challenging course rather than worrying about preserving your GPA. Schools can tell a person who was motivated to go and challenge themselves versus a student who padded his schedule with soft-ball classes. So, it seems that I've managed to ramble quite a bit. I hope I helped a little, and I'm sure some of the more senior guys in the forum will have more wise things to say. Don't worry - I think you're in good shape. 🙂 Good luck!

 

[Maebea]

You should definitely seek out Jenny Bloom at your school for advice. She is a great resource for potential MD-PhD students. You might also wish to contact the schools you are most interested in to determine what their requirements are in terms of coursework. Biology with a lab would be helpful. Medicine in a discipline based on biology and biochemistry, and schools like to see a firm foundation in these areas. You should realize that strong MCAT scores do not indicate a mastery of biology or the physical sciences. You need to develop the ability to synthesize the material at a very high level, not just do well on a standardized test. Finally, you should do some community service. Medical schools like to see this, but more important, you need to determine if working with sick people is really something that interests you. The best doctors are not necessarily the brightest ones, rather they are the one's that love their profession and love working with people.

You sound like a bright gal/guy, and if you choose to go the physician-scientist route, you will probably do very well. Best of luck.

 

[Habari]

as usual, maebea's advice is quite good.

also, i would recommend thinking about the MEMP program between harvard-mit (or an equivelant); this is an engineering/physical science-centric phd graduate program that strongly emphasizes biomedical applications. i don't know the specifics, but i believe that there is also a clinical-like component (though it does not lead to an md degree) that would provide you with the medical framework you seek to think about specific problems/solutions.

https://hstdev.mit.edu/servlet/ControllerServlet?handler=PublicHandler&action=browse&pageid=125

http://hstdev.mit.edu/servlet/ControllerServlet?handler=PublicHandler&action=browse&pageid=112

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I'm new here, but if I may make a suggestion: listen to Maebea's advice.

Follow the rules that they've set; you don't want them to disqualify you for a silly reason such as not actually taking the required courses. If you are a sophomore right now, you still have time to take the required bio, phys, gchem and orgo classes.

Also, medicine is by and large a biological science. If you hate biology so much, how do you know you would want to go to medical school? I'm not too keen on the memorization that biology requires (most people aren't), but I see learning it as a necessity towards helping people as a physician.

Regarding the MCAT, I would take that again late in your junior year. Your scores are absolutely fine, but I am sure that if you study hard, you can raise your score considerably, which will put you in an even better position. I raised mine from a 34R to a 40T.

Finally, don't neglect to do the required volunteering/leadership.

 

[tr]

I think it's not a clever idea to apply to med school without the prerequisite classes. They'll just dump your application in the trash. There are far too many applicants with good grades and scores who *have* taken the required classes for the adcom to bother looking at the application of someone who hasn't.

As far as I know, all US med schools require two years of undergraduate chemistry, one of biology, and one of physics. (Many also require things like English, math, and biochem; but I'll leave that aside.)

However, there's no law saying it has to be Bio/Chem/Physics 101. I also placed out of several introductory-level science courses by using AP credit; all I did was take upper-level electives in the relevant departments instead. I was quite pleased with the way it turned out; I didn't have to sit through introductory material that I already knew, and the upper-level courses were engaging and challenging.

So don't try to talk your way out of fulfilling the entrance requirements for med school; it's not worth the time, trouble, and cost of the wasted applications. Just pick a few upper-level electives that look interesting to you.

(Regarding electrical engineering, it is a sad truth that the difficulty of your course of study counts maybe about 10% as much as your actual grades. I know somel very intelligent and motivated students who challenged themselves in undergrad with difficult courses, and whose medical school applications suffered as a result. I still think it's worthwhile to take interesting rather than easy courses, but I wouldn't expect that it will work in your favor for med school admissions.)