seems just about anyone can get into medical school these days

[GreenMudPhud]

OP: Question, what is the difference between their passing score (one who studied in Europe or the Carribean) on the USMLE and your passing score? I'm pretty sure it's the same test. I hate hearing stuff from pretentious slobs like yourself, and you are the reason that this negative stereotype persists.

Jo-schmo U undergrad: 22 MCAT, 2.98 GPA, goes to carribean, USMLE - 240

Hot-dog jack @$$ Harvard undergrad: 37 MCAT, 3.87 GPA, goes to Johns Hopkins, USMLE - 235

This stuff happens all the time. So you the heck do you think you are?

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[63768]

i think there are questionable admits at any med school.

 

[jon stewart]

hey,

i have heard that FMG's will have a hard time getting to competitive residencys like derm, plastics etc.

However, does it matter where you got your medical degree from? Are graduates of med schools in England and Australia pooled into the same category as med students from the carribean? Please only answer if you actually know anything about med schools in aus/england.

Will residency directors look at and take into consideration where you got your degree? or do they just pool everyone as FMGs

i know that none of this matters if you have poor board scores

and yea i have looked at the aus forums...i just want to hear something from someone who acutally knows what they are talking about..and not hear something from poeple who heard it from someone else...who heard it from a dog that spoke spanish...

 

[skoutt]

OP-

It sounds like you have a lot to learn about medicine yourself. I can't be sure, but I'm guessing you've lived a rather privileged life, which won't help you relate to a majority of U.S. patients. Take away your expensive prep. schools and MCAT prep. course and see where you end up.

 

[Northerner]

OP: Question, what is the difference between their passing score (one who studied in Europe or the Carribean) on the USMLE and your passing score? I'm pretty sure it's the same test. I hate hearing stuff from pretentious slobs like yourself, and you are the reason that this negative stereotype persists.

Jo-schmo U undergrad: 22 MCAT, 2.98 GPA, goes to carribean, USMLE - 240

Hot-dog jack @$$ Harvard undergrad: 37 MCAT, 3.87 GPA, goes to Johns Hopkins, USMLE - 235

This stuff happens all the time. So you the heck do you think you are?

While I agree that the OP is a (troll posing as a) pretentious slob, surely you agree that there's more to medical school than USMLE prep, and that graduates from schools outside the U.S. should be held accountable to the education they received.

 

[danierrr]

hey,

i have heard that FMG's will have a hard time getting to competitive residencys like derm, plastics etc.

However, does it matter where you got your medical degree from? Are graduates of med schools in England and Australia pooled into the same category as med students from the carribean? Please only answer if you actually know anything about med schools in aus/england.

Will residency directors look at and take into consideration where you got your degree? or do they just pool everyone as FMGs

i know that none of this matters if you have poor board scores

and yea i have looked at the aus forums...i just want to hear something from someone who acutally knows what they are talking about..and not hear something from poeple who heard it from someone else...who heard it from a dog that spoke spanish...

Jon,

I have a friend with a Cambridge medical degree (MBChB), middle of her class, high USMLE scores, who didn't match this year. I forget which specialty. Her impressions were that *any* medical school outside the US, no matter how prestigious and reputed, are discriminated against. She has since given up and is serving as a house officer before trying for a local residency position.

My Singaporean medical friends won't even bother trying for American slots because the system makes it too hard for them to get accepted. Plus, they get an automatic full registration to practice in the UK, so why would they want to go to the US? The UK is far more accepting of foreign talent than America is, at least in the medical arena.

 

[Northerner]

Jon,

I have a friend with a Cambridge medical degree (MBChB), middle of her class, high USMLE scores, who didn't match this year. I forget which specialty. Her impressions were that *any* medical school outside the US, no matter how prestigious and reputed, are discriminated against. She has since given up and is serving as a house officer before trying for a local residency position.

My Singaporean medical friends won't even bother trying for American slots because the system makes it too hard for them to get accepted. Plus, they get an automatic full registration to practice in the UK, so why would they want to go to the US? The UK is far more accepting of foreign talent than America is, at least in the medical arena.

I still don't get why we should consider them on even footing with U.S. grads. Why is it so crazy to have preference for your own graduates, and avoid attracting away fine physicians trained by and for other countries?

 

[danierrr]

I still don't get why we should consider them on even footing with U.S. grads. Why is it so crazy to have preference for your own graduates, and avoid attracting away fine physicians trained by and for other countries?

Hi Northerner,

If we consider physicians on their merit alone, FMGs are generally outstanding individuals with distinguished backgrounds just like American medical graduates. A few have problems with English, granted, but are no slouches when it comes down to the science and medicine.

It's easy to be biased against FMGs when you hear about so-called less qualified applicants going off to the Caribbean to get their degree -- but like GreenShirt posted earlier, there are medical schools outside the United States with much richer histories, much more accomplished alumni, and far tougher admissions standards than any in the US.

A country can choose to accept its own first, sure. It wouldn't be merit-based though, which is what most programs should strive towards. The most qualified should get positions, not the most American.

I don't think many US medical students would like it if residency programs only accepted people from their own medical school program, or in-state programs. The system we currently have treats all Americans equally regardless of their state or program. All that I'm asking is you take it to the next logical step and extend equal consideration to EVERY applicant regardless of their COUNTRY or program.

Now, why would a fine physician want to leave their own country and come to the United States? First of all, who are we as a people to prevent them the liberty to choose where they wish to live and practice? We don't force physicians coming out of Idaho to stay in their state and deprive Idaho of their fine doctors, do we? America is a nation founded on civil liberty and if they're not happy living and learning in Idaho, so be it.

And who says FMGs are here to stay? Many come here for residency training because American residency programs have many of the leaders in a given clinical field, but not all of them want to remain here. I met a surgical attending who trained at Hopkins and now practices in Penang, Malaysia. You may see this as depriving the United States of one less excellent surgeon -- a waste of a residency slot, perhaps -- but I see this as a person now able to educate thousands of Malaysian medical students and residents who wouldn't otherwise have received a comparable medical education.

This post is lengthy; my gist is to treat countries as states, and to consider whether we want a merit-based or nationality-based residency system to decide who gets to practice medicine.

 

[jon stewart]

so i am an australian citizen, but i am not a permanent resident of the US, though i will be soon.

I was considering going back to Aus to do med there and come back here for residency, but considering that i dont know what field i am interseted in i think i want to try and get in here.

The only problem is that my EC and research track in undergrad is not very impressive at all (i had lots of issues wiht my visa, i can explain if you want). So i am planning on working as a CNA for about 4 months before i apply and continue working all the way through the app cycle. i would apply in june 09. I also dont have that much clinical expereince either.

Whats the best way to overcome my not so impressive research/ec's in undergrad? Is my plan now good?

Thanks for your advice!

 

[Northerner]

Hi Northerner,

Hi.

If we consider physicians on their merit alone, FMGs are generally outstanding individuals with distinguished backgrounds just like American medical graduates. A few have problems with English, granted, but are no slouches when it comes down to the science and medicine.

No question.

It's easy to be biased against FMGs when you hear about so-called less qualified applicants going off to the Caribbean to get their degree -- but like GreenShirt posted earlier, there are medical schools outside the United States with much richer histories, much more accomplished alumni, and far tougher admissions standards than any in the US.

We're not talking about "less-qualified applicants" or history of the school or anything of the sort. We're talking about accreditation. We're talking about standardization of medical curriculum, so that the U.S. trains and receives doctors who have had the benefit of the same education standards. Schools outside of the U.S. are not under the auspices of the oversight bodies that ensure this for our country, therefore we have absolutely no idea what kind of education someone at Bumblefrick University in the Ukraine is receiving. They have an objective measurement by which to gauge their knowledge (or ability on that particular test), i.e. the USMLE, but I think we'll all agree a medical education is more than a Step I prep course. Or damn well should be.

A country can choose to accept its own first, sure. It wouldn't be merit-based though, which is what most programs should strive towards. The most qualified should get positions, not the most American.

Yeah, well, I've got news for you - most components of this process aren't strictly merit-based. No one said "the most American" should get positions, don't put words in anyone's mouth. But the best American candidate should get the spot over an equally qualified foreign graduate, yes. Another newsflash - we're not out to train the best candidates from all over the world, we're here to train (for the most part), the most diverse, accomplished, and appropriate candidates for practice in the U.S. The U.S. residency system is not seeking to populate the world with its graduates, nor is it trying to unreasonably keep out foreign graduates (seeking a position) who wish to practice here.

I don't think many US medical students would like it if residency programs only accepted people from their own medical school program, or in-state programs. The system we currently have treats all Americans equally regardless of their state or program. All that I'm asking is you take it to the next logical step and extend equal consideration to EVERY applicant regardless of their COUNTRY or program.

Now I'm starting to wonder how far along you are in this process, as this is EXACTLY what happens, and for a legitimate reason. Take a look at the public school "state of origin" for its matriculants. Take a look at a school's match list with a teaching hospital with many residency programs. They tend to take their own. Why? Because they're prejudiced against the others? No, because it makes sense. In-state matriculants are more likely to practice in-state upon graduation. That's a fact. For the most part, public schools seek to populate their state's physicians. A school's associated hospital takes a large chunk of it's school's graduates because they've rotated through there and know the system. They know the staff and have proven their interpersonal and communication skills. They are in a position to network with the right people. This is all open to students from other schools, in the form of away rotations (which is why students go all over the country 4th year and end up matching at other institutions' programs). But since they rotated through 3rd year and at least did a sub-I at their home hospital in 4th year, they're more likely to have an edge. That edge is not closed to students from other schools.

Now, why would a fine physician want to leave their own country and come to the United States? First of all, who are we as a people to prevent them the liberty to choose where they wish to live and practice? We don't force physicians coming out of Idaho to stay in their state and deprive Idaho of their fine doctors, do we? America is a nation founded on civil liberty and if they're not happy living and learning in Idaho, so be it.

Wow, this is a pretty naive statement. I don't even think it merits addressing, although maybe I'll point out why the Yankees are such a hated team. They have the biggest payroll, so they can just buy up all the good players from other teams. Really screws over the other teams.

And who says FMGs are here to stay? Many come here for residency training because American residency programs have many of the leaders in a given clinical field, but not all of them want to remain here. I met a surgical attending who trained at Hopkins and now practices in Penang, Malaysia. You may see this as depriving the United States of one less excellent surgeon -- a waste of a residency slot, perhaps -- but I see this as a person now able to educate thousands of Malaysian medical students and residents who wouldn't otherwise have received a comparable medical education.

Again, it's not our job to train Malaysian physicians. Just like it's not the University of Alabama's job to train students who are going to practice in New York, it's not the U.S.'s job to train doctors from all over the world in a desperate hope that they'll either A) return to their home country never to return (using a spot that a U.S. grad, known to be staying in the U.S. to practice, funded by Medicare dollars, which are U.S. tax dollars), or B) stay here, lured by better wages, standard of living, employment opportunities, social services, etc., where the U.S. public will get the benefit of a U.S. trained physician's service, but the foreign country loses a perhaps desperately needed physician. It's not the AAMC's job to train physicians for the rest of the world.

This post is lengthy; my gist is to treat countries as states, and to consider whether we want a merit-based or nationality-based residency system to decide who gets to practice medicine.

I don't know how to say it any plainer than I already have. We tend to favor U.S. grads because we seek to train U.S. physicians. We tend to favor U.S. grads because our medical education oversight does not cover the 1,000's of foreign medical schools that exist in every form, from decrepit to world-class. We know and can control what the education standard is in the U.S. We have a limit to the length of our reach in knowing and controlling what the education standard is overseas. If you'd like to lobby for the U.N. to create an oversight body that does that, more power to you, it's a great idea. And if you think USMLE performance defines "merit", that's a bad sign.

 

[smsc2009]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

While I understand your frustration, I have to disagree, somewhat. Now, I am only in high school, but here is my view. I did not read this whole thread, because I saw this post, and maybe someone has already mentioned this.

The reason why any students go to offshore schools is not because they are under-achievers wanting to be physicans. Most cases you will find a family tradegy, or someother type of situation hidering them from showing there full ability during undergraduate work. The offshore schools are there only shot. I know there are some people who just go to these schools because they are under-achievers and those people will be exposed during the licensure exams. The ones who work hard and pass the exams with high scores deserve to be there just as much as you. I think.

 

[Law2Doc]

The reason why any students go to offshore schools is not because they are under-achievers wanting to be physicans. Most cases you will find a family tragedy, or someother type of situation hidering them from showing there full ability during undergraduate work. The offshore schools are there only shot. I know there are some people who just go to these schools because they are under-achievers and those people will be exposed during the licensure exams. The ones who work hard and pass the exams with high scores deserve to be there just as much as you. I think.

There are plenty of people in US medical schools with a history of tragedy. And I would certainly be curious to see your statistics that show that most folks who go offshore to the caribbean for medical school do so due to some form of family tragedy. Truth of the matter is this cottage industry didn't pop up to cover a few people who have had a rough time in life. It grew because US med schools only accept half of the applicants, and so there are literally thousands of students each year looking for a "second chance" at med school. I think that if someone can turn things around and do well in an offshore med school and then the boards, that's super. (Most can't, which is why attrition at some places is so high). But honestly, your post suggesting tragic "excuses" is probably not an accurate spin.

 

[veenut]

I don't understand why some of you think that American residency programs should consider both American medical students and FMGs equally. Come on! They are AMERICAN residency programs - our country invests a good amount of money into our medical education and it would be silly to not see that investment through till the end.

If I were applying for a residency spot in another country, I would fully expect them to consider their own first. That's the only logical thing to do.

Regarding the other topic that's been debated on this thread...Yes, some people who go the Caribbean have had family tragedies and other situations that forced them to go offshore. However, the majority just did not meet the academic standards necessary to stay here. Again...most, but not all.

If Caribbean graduates can pass the boards, then that's great. If they can get board scores that are competitive as well as letters of recommendation from American faculty, then they probably shaped up since college and should be able to compete for many residency spots. However, many of these Caribbean schools are diploma mills that lack the quality and consistency of a US medical education, and their graduates suffer as a result. Most people realize this going in and just need to overcome this extra obstacle to get into their residency program of choice.

 

[doctorp82]

i say if you can pass the boards then you're as qualified as anyone else

end of discussion.

Keep this a secret everyone, but I've heard *gasp* not even all U.S. medical students pass their boards

NBME = National Board of Medical Examiners
USMLE = United States Medical Licensing Exam

Pass it, and you've got the knowledge to get going as a doctor.

 

[amherstguy]

i didnt mean to open a can of worms here, or sound pretentious but US medical school admission is an entire process that evaluates a candidate based on many factors. Many Carib medical schools do not even interview, many do not even provide cadavers for their students to dissect, no adequate clinical experience. They are essentially buy MD schools. You pay whatever money, they dont give a ****, and then they send you here. There is no government funding going into them, no research, nothing. Eastern European schools are also buy MD schools, where programs are esspecially designed in english for American students paying in AMerican dollars. The same goes for many schools in India in which seats are bought by Indian-AMericans for hefty sums. I am not biased against an FMG who worked his ass off in his country's own system- to make it where he is. They are great physicians no doubt. nor am i biased against DO's, i think their education (perhapr not admissions) is on par with allopathic schools. I am biased against US medical students who take the easy way out and go to University of Antigua or whatever. I met a girl who went to school on an island so small she had to take a plane to the caymans and then get to her school by ferry!!! how can this be equivilant in any degree to a US medical education both DO and MD. and no just because you pass the USMLE does not mean you are a competent Dr. There is much more, I hope, you are taught in medical schools than to pass this exam. Today anyone can become a Dr. Even if you go to a ****ty undergrad, bomb your MCAT, have a miserable GPA, no extracurr, have suspect ethics, etc. Just pack your bags- head to antigua- pay an additional 10, 000 for Kaplan prep on your on merry way. this is just unacceptable. its not arrogance, its simply BS. undergrads who are reading this, GO INTO INVESTMENT BANKING.

 

[AngryBaby]

I don't know how to say it any plainer than I already have. We tend to favor U.S. grads because we seek to train U.S. physicians. We tend to favor U.S. grads because our medical education oversight does not cover the 1,000's of foreign medical schools that exist in every form, from decrepit to world-class. We know and can control what the education standard is in the U.S. We have a limit to the length of our reach in knowing and controlling what the education standard is overseas. If you'd like to lobby for the U.N. to create an oversight body that does that, more power to you, it's a great idea. And if you think USMLE performance defines "merit", that's a bad sign.

While I agree with what you're saying, the fact that residency programs are federally funded is another big reason why American grads are preferred over IMG/FMGs. All else being equal, should the money go to the foreign graduate or the American graduate if the money's coming from the American gov't? (rhetorical obviously)

And, at the risk of drudging this up again, I think that the USMLE, though not "defining" merit, certainly is a very good indicator of it.

 

[AngryBaby]

i didnt mean to open a can of worms here, or sound pretentious but US medical school admission is an entire process that evaluates a candidate based on many factors. Many Carib medical schools do not even interview, many do not even provide cadavers for their students to dissect, no adequate clinical experience. They are essentially buy MD schools. You pay whatever money, they dont give a ****, and then they send you here. There is no government funding going into them, no research, nothing. Eastern European schools are also buy MD schools, where programs are esspecially designed in english for American students paying in AMerican dollars. The same goes for many schools in India in which seats are bought by Indian-AMericans for hefty sums. I am not biased against an FMG who worked his ass off in his country's own system- to make it where he is. They are great physicians no doubt. nor am i biased against DO's, i think their education (perhapr not admissions) is on par with allopathic schools. I am biased against US medical students who take the easy way out and go to University of Antigua or whatever. I met a girl who went to school on an island so small she had to take a plane to the caymans and then get to her school by ferry!!! how can this be equivilant in any degree to a US medical education both DO and MD. and no just because you pass the USMLE does not mean you are a competent Dr. There is much more, I hope, you are taught in medical schools than to pass this exam. Today anyone can become a Dr. Even if you go to a ****ty undergrad, bomb your MCAT, have a miserable GPA, no extracurr, have suspect ethics, etc. Just pack your bags- head to antigua- pay an additional 10, 000 for Kaplan prep on your on merry way. this is just unacceptable. its not arrogance, its simply BS. undergrads who are reading this, GO INTO INVESTMENT BANKING.

OK, well your understanding of these other schools is somewhat limited. Even many of these "buy MD schools", not to mention the more respected offshore schools, have their rotations in the US, with US MD's, and sometimes even ::gasp:: with US students. The basic science years are when we're on the island, and last time I checked Netter's, Rohen's, Marks, et al reads the same on a tiny island as it does in the US. These lectures at the legitimate offshore schools, BTW, are all taught by appropriately accredited faculty.

There's really no way to "fake" being a physician in the US. If you're afraid of inferior individuals taking your spot(s) in the Match then you're either A) far too insecure B) scoring below average in your class or C) don't have a firm grasp on the difficulties of obtaining a US license from a foreign school. Did you know that every state I have personally checked out requires all IMG/FMGs to prove where every single one of their rotations took place, and then scrutinizes each one to make sure they're acceptable for their state's respective board? That means that if some "buy MD school" sent their students on some unaccredited and/or BS rotation then "No license for you!". As I wrote to Northerner earlier, this is critical to maintain the integrity of patient care overall.

Sounds to me, however, like you have an issue with people whom you consider to be beneath you daring to not only attempt to become a physician but actually succeed in an environment not necessarily conducive to success.

 

[PepperMD]

I met a girl who went to school on an island so small she had to take a plane to the caymans and then get to her school by ferry!!! how can this be equivilant in any degree to a US medical education both DO and MD.

Oh god no! Not by ferry! I fear for her future patients!

Seriously dude, I don't know how you got into your precious "top 20 school", but I'm sure your ability to construct a logical argument had nothing to do with it.

 

[gujuDoc]

I still don't get why we should consider them on even footing with U.S. grads. Why is it so crazy to have preference for your own graduates, and avoid attracting away fine physicians trained by and for other countries?

EXACTLY!!! I think people trained in this country should get first concession because they are the ones training in this country to be doctors in this country. A country must show duty to its own citizens first and then to foreign citizens.

 

[gujuDoc]

Hi.



No question.



We're not talking about "less-qualified applicants" or history of the school or anything of the sort. We're talking about accreditation. We're talking about standardization of medical curriculum, so that the U.S. trains and receives doctors who have had the benefit of the same education standards. Schools outside of the U.S. are not under the auspices of the oversight bodies that ensure this for our country, therefore we have absolutely no idea what kind of education someone at Bumblefrick University in the Ukraine is receiving. They have an objective measurement by which to gauge their knowledge (or ability on that particular test), i.e. the USMLE, but I think we'll all agree a medical education is more than a Step I prep course. Or damn well should be.



Yeah, well, I've got news for you - most components of this process aren't strictly merit-based. No one said "the most American" should get positions, don't put words in anyone's mouth. But the best American candidate should get the spot over an equally qualified foreign graduate, yes. Another newsflash - we're not out to train the best candidates from all over the world, we're here to train (for the most part), the most diverse, accomplished, and appropriate candidates for practice in the U.S. The U.S. residency system is not seeking to populate the world with its graduates, nor is it trying to unreasonably keep out foreign graduates (seeking a position) who wish to practice here.



Now I'm starting to wonder how far along you are in this process, as this is EXACTLY what happens, and for a legitimate reason. Take a look at the public school "state of origin" for its matriculants. Take a look at a school's match list with a teaching hospital with many residency programs. They tend to take their own. Why? Because they're prejudiced against the others? No, because it makes sense. In-state matriculants are more likely to practice in-state upon graduation. That's a fact. For the most part, public schools seek to populate their state's physicians. A school's associated hospital takes a large chunk of it's school's graduates because they've rotated through there and know the system. They know the staff and have proven their interpersonal and communication skills. They are in a position to network with the right people. This is all open to students from other schools, in the form of away rotations (which is why students go all over the country 4th year and end up matching at other institutions' programs). But since they rotated through 3rd year and at least did a sub-I at their home hospital in 4th year, they're more likely to have an edge. That edge is not closed to students from other schools.



Wow, this is a pretty naive statement. I don't even think it merits addressing, although maybe I'll point out why the Yankees are such a hated team. They have the biggest payroll, so they can just buy up all the good players from other teams. Really screws over the other teams.



Again, it's not our job to train Malaysian physicians. Just like it's not the University of Alabama's job to train students who are going to practice in New York, it's not the U.S.'s job to train doctors from all over the world in a desperate hope that they'll either A) return to their home country never to return (using a spot that a U.S. grad, known to be staying in the U.S. to practice, funded by Medicare dollars, which are U.S. tax dollars), or B) stay here, lured by better wages, standard of living, employment opportunities, social services, etc., where the U.S. public will get the benefit of a U.S. trained physician's service, but the foreign country loses a perhaps desperately needed physician. It's not the AAMC's job to train physicians for the rest of the world.



I don't know how to say it any plainer than I already have. We tend to favor U.S. grads because we seek to train U.S. physicians. We tend to favor U.S. grads because our medical education oversight does not cover the 1,000's of foreign medical schools that exist in every form, from decrepit to world-class. We know and can control what the education standard is in the U.S. We have a limit to the length of our reach in knowing and controlling what the education standard is overseas. If you'd like to lobby for the U.N. to create an oversight body that does that, more power to you, it's a great idea. And if you think USMLE performance defines "merit", that's a bad sign.

Good post!! I don't believe it is our job to train foreign physicians who will most likely return to their country if that is their purpose of coming here.

There are equally many places in this country where there are poor people and people needing medical help and we are hear to increase the healthcare initiatives of our own cities and towns, our own states, our own country simply put. That is the first and foremost goal. One should be able to pick those who'll serve their country first and be of service to the US first and then if they have time to do international trips that's fine. But the US medical schools and residency training programs aren't here for the purpose of training physicians who will leave this country and not serve this country. The US isn't opening more medical schools so they can train people to leave this country, they are opening more medical schools to increase physicians in this country who'll serve this country.

 

[amherstguy]

if you want to work in grenada or antigua or cayman islands or whatever, go to medical school there. if you want to work in the US- go to medical school here. what is so hard about that concept to understand?

 

[zeff]

if you want to work in grenada or antigua or cayman islands or whatever, go to medical school there. if you want to work in the US- go to medical school here. what is so hard about that concept to understand?

Don't want to pile on you here, but you already know the answer to your question--no American goes to med school in the Caribbean because he wants to, he does it because he has to. If the American students in Caribbean schools could go to school here, you know as well as I do that they would. One of my roommates from college (a hard worker but not a great test-taker) tried for two application cycles to get into a U.S. school with a decent, but fairly mediocre resume; it didn't happen for him, so he went to Saint George's and he's now doing his clinical rotations at several different U.S. hospitals (that's how SGU does the clinical years).

He's a smart, capable guy who really wants to be a doctor--he has taken on massive debt, left his family, friends, and familiar surroundings to follow his dream. He's passionate about medicine and I am certain he will be a successful physician here in the U.S. soon enough. I wish every U.S. medical student and physician had his desire and dedication--I hope I have it when I begin school later this month.

P.S. Grow up, get this crap out of here. I bet your "Top 20" medical school admissions officers would cringe to learn they had accepted someone immature enough to post this garbage

 

[jon stewart]

anyone want to offer me some advice with my post above? pleasse?

 

[smsc2009]

There are plenty of people in US medical schools with a history of tragedy. And I would certainly be curious to see your statistics that show that most folks who go offshore to the caribbean for medical school do so due to some form of family tragedy. Truth of the matter is this cottage industry didn't pop up to cover a few people who have had a rough time in life. It grew because US med schools only accept half of the applicants, and so there are literally thousands of students each year looking for a "second chance" at med school. I think that if someone can turn things around and do well in an offshore med school and then the boards, that's super. (Most can't, which is why attrition at some places is so high). But honestly, your post suggesting tragic "excuses" is probably not an accurate spin.

Yes, there are people who look for a "second chance" as you said, I even stated that. I mentioned that they will be exposed during the licensure exams. I don't think you can deny every year there are people who have tradegies in their life that they do not recover from as easy as others. I read it on here all the time. Again, offshore, or US medical graduate still has to take the same licensure exams.

 

[smsc2009]

OP: Question, what is the difference between their passing score (one who studied in Europe or the Carribean) on the USMLE and your passing score? I'm pretty sure it's the same test. I hate hearing stuff from pretentious slobs like yourself, and you are the reason that this negative stereotype persists.

Jo-schmo U undergrad: 22 MCAT, 2.98 GPA, goes to carribean, USMLE - 240

Hot-dog jack @$$ Harvard undergrad: 37 MCAT, 3.87 GPA, goes to Johns Hopkins, USMLE - 235

This stuff happens all the time. So you the heck do you think you are?

.

This is what I was saying in my post. Good points.

 

[RxnMan]

so i am an australian citizen, but i am not a permanent resident of the US, though i will be soon.

I was considering going back to Aus to do med there and come back here for residency, but considering that i dont know what field i am interseted in i think i want to try and get in here.

The only problem is that my EC and research track in undergrad is not very impressive at all (i had lots of issues wiht my visa, i can explain if you want). So i am planning on working as a CNA for about 4 months before i apply and continue working all the way through the app cycle. i would apply in june 09. I also dont have that much clinical expereince either.

Whats the best way to overcome my not so impressive research/ec's in undergrad? Is my plan now good?

Thanks for your advice!

Try reading through the Mentor, International, and Pre-Allo forums for advice on your situation. If not, then post your question there. I'll tell you that if your GPA and MCAT are up to par, you aren't a jerk/psychopath in your interview, and if your citizen status doesn't mess things up, you'll probably do OK. Don't worry about research, and your NA job will help with clinical experience.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Oh god no! Not by ferry! I fear for her future patients!

Seriously dude, I don't know how you got into your precious "top 20 school", but I'm sure your ability to construct a logical argument had nothing to do with it.

To the op, you've got yours, so why care? That SGU grad isn't going to take away your derm residency unless you really suck, in which case you deserve it.

My advice -- spend a little less time being resentful of what other people have and a little more time being grateful for what you do have.

 

[da8s0859q]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Yeah, right. So John Doe goes to an arguably "lesser" medical school, still does well on the USMLE, lands a residency program where much of the real medicine is taught, does well there, and goes into American practice following foreign medical schooling - big ****ing whoop. God bless 'em for having the dedication to go through even more flaming hoops than us American allopathic kiddies will.

Get over yourself, sir. Be glad you're a US med student, and focus on taking care of your own future career instead of berating that of others because you don't agree with their methodology.

 

[jon stewart]

Try reading through the Mentor, International, and Pre-Allo forums for advice on your situation. If not, then post your question there. I'll tell you that if your GPA and MCAT are up to par, you aren't a jerk/psychopath in your interview, and if your citizen status doesn't mess things up, you'll probably do OK. Don't worry about research, and your NA job will help with clinical experience.

i have read the pre allo--i have been reading that for who knows how long. There isnt much helpful from the intl forums.

What i have posted is what i gathered as a good option for me from all my hours of sdn browsing and talking to my "advisor", and i was just curious as to what other people who are in med school think about it. My main concern is the EC's and the lack of research. Will it matter as much if i would have worked for 4 months by the time i apply, and would continue to work throughout the app cycle?

mcat is next year sometime.

Thanks.

 

[Sir Toalie]

i didnt mean to open a can of worms here, or sound pretentious but US medical school admission is an entire process that evaluates a candidate based on many factors. Many Carib medical schools do not even interview, many do not even provide cadavers for their students to dissect, no adequate clinical experience. They are essentially buy MD schools. You pay whatever money, they dont give a ****, and then they send you here. There is no government funding going into them, no research, nothing. Eastern European schools are also buy MD schools, where programs are esspecially designed in english for American students paying in AMerican dollars. The same goes for many schools in India in which seats are bought by Indian-AMericans for hefty sums. I am not biased against an FMG who worked his ass off in his country's own system- to make it where he is. They are great physicians no doubt. nor am i biased against DO's, i think their education (perhapr not admissions) is on par with allopathic schools. I am biased against US medical students who take the easy way out and go to University of Antigua or whatever. I met a girl who went to school on an island so small she had to take a plane to the caymans and then get to her school by ferry!!! how can this be equivilant in any degree to a US medical education both DO and MD. and no just because you pass the USMLE does not mean you are a competent Dr. There is much more, I hope, you are taught in medical schools than to pass this exam. Today anyone can become a Dr. Even if you go to a ****ty undergrad, bomb your MCAT, have a miserable GPA, no extracurr, have suspect ethics, etc. Just pack your bags- head to antigua- pay an additional 10, 000 for Kaplan prep on your on merry way. this is just unacceptable. its not arrogance, its simply BS. undergrads who are reading this, GO INTO INVESTMENT BANKING.

You're digging a pretty big hole for yourself.. you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, equating a school that's been around for a few years (Antigua) with those that have been around about 30 years (Ross, AUC, St. George's).. do some research, you'll realize that though easier to get accepted to (or in the case of many DO schools, roughly the same difficulty to get into), these schools have facilities that are up to par with many US schools (I shared a cadaver with 4 other students, all our lecture halls are modern.. though I guess we aren't equipped to cure cancer) and are well represented in competitive residencies every match... not to start a new war, but what do you think of the DO schools that are just opening or have been around a couple years? Let me guess, they piss you off too.

And your last statement.. encouraging undergrads to go into investment banking, shows where you're interest in medicine truly lies..

I do agree with one thing you said though regarding your opinion: "it's not arrogance, it's simply BS"

 

[shivasHeroLike]

Keep this a secret everyone, but I've heard *gasp* not even all U.S. medical students pass their boards

NBME = National Board of Medical Examiners
USMLE = United States Medical Licensing Exam

Pass it, and you've got the knowledge to get going as a doctor.

ok? lol i couldn't figure out your point.
but yea that holds true too.

if you're a US student that cannot pass the boards then you're not ready to become a doctor.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Hrmmm well there are people who don't go to business school and end up at the top of a company, or starting their own company, or whatever.

There are people who become lab techs and don't even get their PhDs, only masters, and they end up contributing to research and even getting published.

There are people who go to ITT Tech or Devry and get a measly computer degree and then get hired by nearly anyone who needs a programmer or analyst.

There are countless who do that vocational junk you see in commercials during the day about how they can go to school and get their associate's degree in accounting, plumbing, interior design, etc etc (you've HAD to have heard that list AT LEAST once) and then get hired by whoever.

One of Pete Sampras's tennis coaches (one during Pistol Pete's early career) has never picked up a racket.

Evan Tanner fought in the UFC and he initially learned his skills from watching videotapes and messing around with his friends.

Hyori is a Korean popstar who grew to fame from FINKL, and she was discovered in a photobooth - no formal training in either singing or acting, yet she is one of the most recognized female divas in Asia.

All the world cares about is if you can do your job right. Your education doesn't guarantee anything, just makes you prepared. Get over it. It's your choice to bust your ass and go into top 20, don't go off judging other people's choices. Yeah, medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards - it's also a profession of humility.

Dismount from your high horse before I kick you off boy.

 

[Hayden2102]

Hrmmm well there are people who don't go to business school and end up at the top of a company, or starting their own company, or whatever.

There are people who become lab techs and don't even get their PhDs, only masters, and they end up contributing to research and even getting published.

There are people who go to ITT Tech or Devry and get a measly computer degree and then get hired by nearly anyone who needs a programmer or analyst.

There are countless who do that vocational junk you see in commercials during the day about how they can go to school and get their associate's degree in accounting, plumbing, interior design, etc etc (you've HAD to have heard that list AT LEAST once) and then get hired by whoever.

One of Pete Sampras's tennis coaches (one during Pistol Pete's early career) has never picked up a racket.

Evan Tanner fought in the UFC and he initially learned his skills from watching videotapes and messing around with his friends.

Hyori is a Korean popstar who grew to fame from FINKL, and she was discovered in a photobooth - no formal training in either singing or acting, yet she is one of the most recognized female divas in Asia.

All the world cares about is if you can do your job right. Your education doesn't guarantee anything, just makes you prepared. Get over it. It's your choice to bust your ass and go into top 20, don't go off judging other people's choices. Yeah, medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards - it's also a profession of humility.

Dismount from your high horse before I kick you off boy.

Quote FTW.

 

[danierrr]

I realize mine is a minority opinion, but I think that, as world leaders in medical research, the United States has a duty to train physicians for the entire world, and not the United States alone.

Many of us went to Africa or other underserved regions to volunteer and help the poor and needy there. Why? Because we recognize the need to help, and feel a responsibility to help, because we can. Is it not too much to ask to train the best and brightest from these very same countries so that they can make a lifetime out of helping the underserved in their country? Long after we've padded our resumes and showed that we "care."

Each country has their own accreditation system and governing bodies, just as the United States does. If the country recognizes it, and the WHO recognizes it, and their board scores match those of American candidates, excluding them of the basis of their nationality is discrimination, plain and simple.

Please realize that, to increase the standard of care internationally, the United States has to train foreign countries' caregivers as well as produce physicians for America. Unless, of course, you don't care about the rest of the world, and that alternative spring break you did as an undergrad absolves you of all further responsibility for those not fortunate enough to have been born in America.

 

[danierrr]

so i am an australian citizen, but i am not a permanent resident of the US, though i will be soon.

I was considering going back to Aus to do med there and come back here for residency, but considering that i dont know what field i am interseted in i think i want to try and get in here.

The only problem is that my EC and research track in undergrad is not very impressive at all (i had lots of issues wiht my visa, i can explain if you want). So i am planning on working as a CNA for about 4 months before i apply and continue working all the way through the app cycle. i would apply in june 09. I also dont have that much clinical expereince either.

Whats the best way to overcome my not so impressive research/ec's in undergrad? Is my plan now good?

Thanks for your advice!

I don't know about visa issues, but a lot of medical schools will only take internationals if they graduated from their own undergrad institution. Contact each school individually and ask; they usually take only a day or two to respond. If you can get 15-20 schools willing to consider you despite your Australian nationality, go for it

I started my undergrad degree at the National University of Singapore and had to transfer to an American university because foreign degrees, no matter how prestigious, are all printed on toilet paper in their eyes. Consider doing a post-bac so all your pre-requisites are done in the US, and start getting as much healthcare exposure as you can, too. Going CNA sounds like a good idea; EMS work might also fill the gaps. If the schools willing to take Aussies are research-intensive, you need to get attached to a lab as well. Clearly, this is going to be hell (and time-consuming!) for you if attending an American medical school is what you really want.

I wish I could say it gets easier while applying for residencies, but it doesn't. It would, however, give you four years to get serious healthcare exposure and research under your belt in Australia, instead of delaying your matriculation without any guarantee of an American acceptance.

Hope this helps.

 

[Reimat]

I realize mine is a minority opinion, but I think that, as world leaders in medical research, the United States has a duty to train physicians for the entire world, and not the United States alone.

Many of us went to Africa or other underserved regions to volunteer and help the poor and needy there. Why? Because we recognize the need to help, and feel a responsibility to help, because we can. Is it not too much to ask to train the best and brightest from these very same countries so that they can make a lifetime out of helping the underserved in their country? Long after we've padded our resumes and showed that we "care."

Each country has their own accreditation system and governing bodies, just as the United States does. If the country recognizes it, and the WHO recognizes it, and their board scores match those of American candidates, excluding them of the basis of their nationality is discrimination, plain and simple.

Please realize that, to increase the standard of care internationally, the United States has to train foreign countries' caregivers as well as produce physicians for America. Unless, of course, you don't care about the rest of the world, and that alternative spring break you did as an undergrad absolves you of all further responsibility for those not fortunate enough to have been born in America.

I think you are making a few false assumptions in suggesting that the US should provide equal opportunity to train doctors from around the world. First, you are assuming that it is fair to use tax dollars to essentially train foreign doctors - how is this fair to US citizens? Also, what other countries around the world would rank their citizens and foreign citizens on equal footing? It just doesn't make sense if you're trying to keep the best interests of the nation at heart.

Also, how many US trained doctors actually return to their countries of origin to practice? I don't have numbers, but one example is a piece in the most recent NEJM about a neurosurgeon who entered the country illegally and rose from rags to riches. I think his story sounds incredible, but he makes the point that after being in the US he couldn't make himself return to Mexico - he liked it here too much.

It's unfortunate that not everyone can be born in the US, but there is no other country that gives such great opportunities to foreigners. And honestly the citizens of the US do more than any other country to help the world because of our means and diversity of backgrounds. It's absurd to suggest that the US can or should provide residency slots for the rest of the world - or that medicine in the US is so elite that the world can only catch up if we train their doctors here. Most IMGs want to train here for the same reason US grads don't go abroad - you can make more money, live a better life, etc. It's not a matter of some idealized notion of spreading goodwill - it's cold, hard economics. But hey, more power to you if you want to do you do your training in the States and then go work in an underserved country.

 

[jon stewart]

I think if i give a little more background info, it will help.

I am in the US right now and i am doing my undergrad at a US institution. So all my college coursework is done here in the US. Im not sure why i need a post bac? isnt that for poeple with bad undergrad gpas? Infact i did my last two years of hs here too. Im getting my BS in biology and i will be graduating in a year, i might stay an extra quarter though to do some EC's stuff since i have very little.

I should be getting my greencard soon I-485 has been filed while I-140 is processing, i know that means jack to most of you...its immigration talk...But in order to maximize my chances i want to apply once i become a permanent resident. But i will also give it a shot as a intl student if need be...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what i understand, most of the schools that are international friendly are the private ones correct?

So, are there any schools that are international student freindly who don't require research experience, or it wont really be that bad if you dont have any? or am i asking for too much...

im curious because most of the private schools are top name schools and most of the people who apply to them have a lifetimes worth of research experience...

am i just screwed?

Also, are there any state schools that are intl student freindly?

Thanks!

and singapore is wonderful....i went there when i was younger...our qantas flight got delayed so we got to stay in singapore for a while. I think we went to all the little culture places..like little india (idk if they still have that anymore) i love the changi airport tooo! and singapore airliners is the sweeet.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

What a wake up call. Talk about a kick in the teeth. I can relate to the OP. It does seem unfair that you work your ass off to go to Princeton Undergrad and someone from a second tier school snags that job at Merill Lynch. I can be an Ivy Leaguer, but unfortunately that doesn't stop someone getting into Yale Law over me. When Dewey, Cheatham and Howe law firm decide who to make partner of their associates, chances are the schools they went to are the last things on their mind. We worked our ass off to get to a good school, but that's not enough. If someone surpasses you chances are it's the same reason you're on your high horse-that Ross grad gets your surgical residency, he worked his ass off to get it from the caribbean just like you worked your ass off to get into Hopkins or wherever. Thanks for this thread, for reminding me never to be complacent. I might have the name brand school, but if someone has better grades, better research, more service hours, higher scores, and better social skills, I'm screwed

 

[danierrr]

I think you are making a few false assumptions in suggesting that the US should provide equal opportunity to train doctors from around the world. First, you are assuming that it is fair to use tax dollars to essentially train foreign doctors - how is this fair to US citizens? Also, what other countries around the world would rank their citizens and foreign citizens on equal footing? It just doesn't make sense if you're trying to keep the best interests of the nation at heart.

Also, how many US trained doctors actually return to their countries of origin to practice? I don't have numbers, but one example is a piece in the most recent NEJM about a neurosurgeon who entered the country illegally and rose from rags to riches. I think his story sounds incredible, but he makes the point that after being in the US he couldn't make himself return to Mexico - he liked it here too much.

It's unfortunate that not everyone can be born in the US, but there is no other country that gives such great opportunities to foreigners. And honestly the citizens of the US do more than any other country to help the world because of our means and diversity of backgrounds. It's absurd to suggest that the US can or should provide residency slots for the rest of the world - or that medicine in the US is so elite that the world can only catch up if we train their doctors here. Most IMGs want to train here for the same reason US grads don't go abroad - you can make more money, live a better life, etc. It's not a matter of some idealized notion of spreading goodwill - it's cold, hard economics. But hey, more power to you if you want to do you do your training in the States and then go work in an underserved country.

I agree that what I suggest is economically dumb. Part of our taxes go towards foreign aid anyways, though admittedly not much. But even if we took cash out of the equation by, say, financing a residency through other channels (University/hospital endowments, foreign government pays, or the person pays out-of-pocket), I'd bet there'd still be tons of resistance.

Furthermore, I agree that the United States does offer significant opportunities to foreigners, although not quite as much as the United Kingdom currently does (they effectively provide residency positions for physicians and surgeons *the world over* -- the old Commonwealth countries -- through the Royal Colleges). They don't seem to suffer from a physician shortage, either, despite their international 'generosity'. I'd really like to see the United States match the UK in that regard.

Even if they decide to stay in the United States, they are as equally capable as any American medical school graduate would've been, so it sounds like nothing's lost from America's point of view -- the foreign country loses out, though. And if enough of them DO return to their home countries to practice, and teach, it'll alleviate the burden on the US since they'll have excellent educators locally.

 

[danierrr]

I think if i give a little more background info, it will help.

I am in the US right now and i am doing my undergrad at a US institution. So all my college coursework is done here in the US. Im not sure why i need a post bac? isnt that for poeple with bad undergrad gpas? Infact i did my last two years of hs here too. Im getting my BS in biology and i will be graduating in a year, i might stay an extra quarter though to do some EC's stuff since i have very little.

I should be getting my greencard soon I-485 has been filed while I-140 is processing, i know that means jack to most of you...its immigration talk...But in order to maximize my chances i want to apply once i become a permanent resident. But i will also give it a shot as a intl student if need be...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what i understand, most of the schools that are international friendly are the private ones correct?

So, are there any schools that are international student freindly who don't require research experience, or it wont really be that bad if you dont have any? or am i asking for too much...

im curious because most of the private schools are top name schools and most of the people who apply to them have a lifetimes worth of research experience...

am i just screwed?

Also, are there any state schools that are intl student freindly?

Thanks!

and singapore is wonderful....i went there when i was younger...our qantas flight got delayed so we got to stay in singapore for a while. I think we went to all the little culture places..like little india (idk if they still have that anymore) i love the changi airport tooo! and singapore airliners is the sweeet.

My mistake, I thought you were getting / had gotten a Australian undergrad degree. An American degree will definitely open you up to consideration, and being a PR should, to my ignorant self, be close enough to American to not be disadvantaged.

How did you miss out on research and healthcare exposure in the US? They just want to see some proof that you know what healthcare is all about, and that you know what you're getting yourself into. Carting patients around a hospital and drawing blood samples is supposed to instill that sort of passion, interestingly.

Yes, private schools tend to be more accepting of international applicants, simply because you aren't an "in-state" applicant for *any* state. Private schools are "state-blind." You may want to try state schools in the state you're doing your undergrad at, simply because your degree is from a place they probably accept many people from, but don't waste application money until they say they'll consider your application instead of escorting it to the garbage can. Oooh, or better yet, if American PRs are allowed to vote, register. That gives you a state residency and opens you up to in-state schools. Owning a home or holding a full-time job also makes you a state citizen, I think.

They unfortunately are also research powerhouses, more often than not, meaning they look upon research favourably. I got into a private school without publishing, but I did do almost two years of hodgepodge research and a year of hospice scut. I didn't even try public schools. I wish I could tell you how much research / healthcare exposure is enough; there may be other threads that address this.

Yup, Singapore's just as lovely as you remember it. You should see Bugis and Buona Vista now -- you know a city is bustling when they throw a roof on top of streets and air-condition them

 

[cel083]

While I get your (OPs) point, and somewhat agree with you as an abstract concept, I would suggest that, there is more to medicine than MCAT/GPA. From what I have seen/heard, most of the offshore trained folks are not noticeably worse than their US counterparts once they actually get to practice. If someone can overcome their inability to master things in college and actually do okay on the Step exams and rotations and get one of the handful of unclaimed residencies (not all offshore folks who want one get one), then good for them. I think everyone would agree it is a harder road, full of attrition and lower odds plays. Your reward as a US student is to not have to put up with those issues -- pretty much everyone who gets into a US school is going to end up in a US residency. Not so offshore.

I agree with the last two posts and disagree with the OP. There are plenty of competent foreign trained doctors out there. I'm not sure how much MCAT scores/GPA has to do with the quality (sp?) of doctors, but if every medical school had to take, say, 5% more students than are currently accepted, then guess where they would have to get them...the lower half of the barrel, the ones with lower MCAT scores and/or GPA. Now, if both MCAT scores and GPA are dipsh*tty, as in GPA lower than 1.5 (a 2.0 is required to graduate from most undergraduate schools and all of the ones I know of) and MCAT scores of 7 each, then we (the public) would all have reason to worry. But I trust USMLE scores will weed out the truly unworthy and downright dangerous, not merely those who are allegedly trying to find an easy way out.

 

[Green Chimneys]

Danierr, I'm totally confused by your reasoning. The reason that the standard of medical care in many foreign (especially 3rd world) countries is below that of the United States and other first world countries is not because they don't have adequately trained professionals. What they need is the actual medications and vaccinations to help their populace, not American residency training. If you're going to put money in to foreign health care aid, that's where it is needed. Medicare spends some 10 billion dollars on residency training per year to train physicians to practice in the United States. Medicare dollars are spent to improve health of Americans, and are not some convoluted form of foreign aid. If you want a separate US government subsidized program to train FMGs to practice in their own countries, go talk to the left wingers...I'm sure they'd be thrilled to raise our taxes to support it.

Most of the FMGs lucky enough to come to the US for residency do so with the intent of practicing in the United States because they can make much more money here than in their homeland (although how much of the money they make gets shipped back out of our economy to their families overseas is anybody's guess). US residency programs should fill their programs with US graduates, so much as qualified applicants are available. From there you can fill up the extra slots with whatever FMGs are most qualified.

Alright, go ahead and call me a xenophobic bigot because I want to protect the interests and health of our own taxpaying citizens.

 

[Tired]

But I trust USMLE scores will weed out the truly unworthy and downright dangerous, not merely those who are allegedly trying to find an easy way out.

You trust a test that is designed to pass a specific proportion of people who take it? That's your system of checks-and-balances?

 

[SomeDoc]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Top 20 or not, it wont mean *&^% if your USMLE's stink, when there's lots of good numbers to fish from in the sea- FMG or domestic.

...Oh yeah, I almost forgot... I smell high-horse syndrome.

 

[SomeDoc]

You trust a test that is designed to pass a specific proportion of people who take it? That's your system of checks-and-balances?

Yes, and it works remarkably well.

As for "specific proportion of people"- scientific knowledge is universal.

Regarding regional-specific pathology-anyone studying to pass the USMLE's obviously has the desire to practice in the U.S., and as such, for their own good, will have to target their studies towards covering domestic regional-specific data, such as regionally specific bugs/parasite infections, etc. Anyone not studying with this in mind would be doing themselves a disservice.

 

[gujuDoc]

Danierr, I'm totally confused by your reasoning. The reason that the standard of medical care in many foreign (especially 3rd world) countries is below that of the United States and other first world countries is not because they don't have adequately trained professionals. What they need is the actual medications and vaccinations to help their populace, not American residency training. If you're going to put money in to foreign health care aid, that's where it is needed. Medicare spends some 10 billion dollars on residency training per year to train physicians to practice in the United States. Medicare dollars are spent to improve health of Americans, and are not some convoluted form of foreign aid. If you want a separate US government subsidized program to train FMGs to practice in their own countries, go talk to the left wingers...I'm sure they'd be thrilled to raise our taxes to support it.

Most of the FMGs lucky enough to come to the US for residency do so with the intent of practicing in the United States because they can make much more money here than in their homeland (although how much of the money they make gets shipped back out of our economy to their families overseas is anybody's guess). US residency programs should fill their programs with US graduates, so much as qualified applicants are available. From there you can fill up the extra slots with whatever FMGs are most qualified.

Alright, go ahead and call me a xenophobic bigot because I want to protect the interests and health of our own taxpaying citizens.

Personally the only thing I would call you is a realist and someone who actually makes sense.

I also hate that people suggest we should let anyone from anywhere come into our residency programs when there are many many many Amercans who don't have adequate healthcare or access to healthcare even in the states and it is our duty to serve our own before we try going to save the world.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think if i give a little more background info, it will help.

I am in the US right now and i am doing my undergrad at a US institution. So all my college coursework is done here in the US. Im not sure why i need a post bac? isnt that for poeple with bad undergrad gpas? Infact i did my last two years of hs here too. Im getting my BS in biology and i will be graduating in a year, i might stay an extra quarter though to do some EC's stuff since i have very little.

I should be getting my greencard soon I-485 has been filed while I-140 is processing, i know that means jack to most of you...its immigration talk...But in order to maximize my chances i want to apply once i become a permanent resident. But i will also give it a shot as a intl student if need be...

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From what i understand, most of the schools that are international friendly are the private ones correct?

So, are there any schools that are international student freindly who don't require research experience, or it wont really be that bad if you dont have any? or am i asking for too much...

im curious because most of the private schools are top name schools and most of the people who apply to them have a lifetimes worth of research experience...

am i just screwed?

Also, are there any state schools that are intl student freindly?

Thanks!

and singapore is wonderful....i went there when i was younger...our qantas flight got delayed so we got to stay in singapore for a while. I think we went to all the little culture places..like little india (idk if they still have that anymore) i love the changi airport tooo! and singapore airliners is the sweeet.

If you are a permanent resident greencard holder then you won't have issues in terms of being restricted to where you can apply. Greencard holders and citizens are both considered equally.

 

[gujuDoc]

I agree that what I suggest is economically dumb. Part of our taxes go towards foreign aid anyways, though admittedly not much. But even if we took cash out of the equation by, say, financing a residency through other channels (University/hospital endowments, foreign government pays, or the person pays out-of-pocket), I'd bet there'd still be tons of resistance.

Furthermore, I agree that the United States does offer significant opportunities to foreigners, although not quite as much as the United Kingdom currently does (they effectively provide residency positions for physicians and surgeons *the world over* -- the old Commonwealth countries -- through the Royal Colleges). They don't seem to suffer from a physician shortage, either, despite their international 'generosity'. I'd really like to see the United States match the UK in that regard.

Even if they decide to stay in the United States, they are as equally capable as any American medical school graduate would've been, so it sounds like nothing's lost from America's point of view -- the foreign country loses out, though. And if enough of them DO return to their home countries to practice, and teach, it'll alleviate the burden on the US since they'll have excellent educators locally.

Those countries are a lot smaller and don't have half as many people as exist in the US. The US needs to help its own needy people and try to solve the health crises of our own country before we should be forced to try and help every other nation and their mothers.

 

[8744]

While I understand your frustration, I have to disagree, somewhat. Now, I am only in high school, but here is my view. I did not read this whole thread, because I saw this post, and maybe someone has already mentioned this.

The reason why any students go to offshore schools is not because they are under-achievers wanting to be physicans. Most cases you will find a family tradegy, or someother type of situation hidering them from showing there full ability during undergraduate work. The offshore schools are there only shot. I know there are some people who just go to these schools because they are under-achievers and those people will be exposed during the licensure exams. The ones who work hard and pass the exams with high scores deserve to be there just as much as you. I think.

Baloney.

 

[jon stewart]

If you are a permanent resident greencard holder then you won't have issues in terms of being restricted to where you can apply. Greencard holders and citizens are both considered equally.

yes, i know that. But USCIS is very unreliable with thier timelines and they are unpredictible too. So i just wanted to know just incase i had to apply as a intl student. If i have learned anything, its not to rely on them. This whole ordeal has taught me a lot actually.