Seems like we're getting ripped off, one way or the other

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Hmm, that's harsh. But I can understand your thinking. I'll tell you, though, that the very reason I'm here is because I DO care. Very very much. I just don't think your strategy is going to bear fruit for you. Sure, you are entitled to choose whatever tactic you want to put your energy towards to advance your future. If your way works, then I'm happy for you. However, if I have reasonable suspicion that what you are doing will not effectively benefit you, I can either respectfully present my case and warn you or I can choose to live my happy life and let you fall. Right?

Let me see if I get this straight. Clarify if you will, but this is how I see your view to be.

"One of our immediate enemies is the PA/NP community who want to intrude on our turf. If we MD's gather together and beg the politicians really really hard, they will throw us a bone and change the laws to limit PA/NP's. So let's give more and more power to our trusted friends, the politicians, and have them USE that power on our behalf"

If you think that is the solution to get enough doctors mass effect together, then I can see why you would get mad at any other fellow doctor who doesn't want to play your way. Fine. I can understand that.

So meanwhile, what do you think the PA/NP's are doing? They are joining forces and collectively going to the politicians (and the corporations that influence them) and begging as hard as THEY can to let them do more. They are saying "Let's give the politicians more and more power so that they can use that power on our behalf"

Elsewhere, the patient population who want access to quality care at cheap prices (or maybe even for free) are saying, "Let's give the politicians more and more power to take over healthcare so that we can get at "those greedy doctors" whose fees are obviously too high and force them to work more for less pay so we can get free universal healthcare.

Meanwhile the politicians are thrilled to see all the peons fighting among ourselves. They will placate the doctors, placate the NP's, placate the patients with eloquent words of promise.

As they pretend to listen to all three groups, they will REALLY listen to those who contribute the most to their campaign fund. The AMA and whatever the NP/PA version of that is called will never make a dent in the actions of the lawmakers. I am sure of that.

But you are welcome to go ahead and go for it. Spend your energy giving over more power to the politicians on the hopes that they will look out for you. If it works, great! If it doesn't, then come back and we'll talk.

Unless, you are right and I really don't care. Then I'll guess I'll be somewhere else. 🙂

Again. Sorry for the rather brash categorization earlier. However, your assumption of what I think is kind of off as well.

I have ZERO faith in politicians, the government, heck, 99% of hosptial administrators and CEOS...

I believe Physicians need to act more drastically, like you, I'm not sure what that is, but I think we're nearing that point...some say a Strike...I'm not for/against...but something along those lines...

I do agree we should speak out, but thats a tertiary thing....more directly TO the media...the public...we can't rely on politicians, hospital administrators, etc....they don't share our interests...they only care about one thing........$
 
Again. Sorry for the rather brash categorization earlier. However, your assumption of what I think is kind of off as well.

I have ZERO faith in politicians, the government, heck, 99% of hosptial administrators and CEOS...

I believe Physicians need to act more drastically, like you, I'm not sure what that is, but I think we're nearing that point...some say a Strike...I'm not for/against...but something along those lines...

I do agree we should speak out, but thats a tertiary thing....more directly TO the media...the public...we can't rely on politicians, hospital administrators, etc....they don't share our interests...they only care about one thing........$

Physicians actually do strike in other countries. They won't show up for non-emergency wards for a few days until their demands are inevitably met. The hospital will be locked down. Horrible for the patients, but it quickly forces the pubic to put a ton of pressure on the lame politicians and penny pinching CEOs.

It's sad, but that is the leverage doctors ultimately have, and in other nations - they do use it. I've been a part of it myself (not by choice, I even snuck back into the hospital to do rounds cause I had some pretty bad cases at the time). It's not like you can hire new doctors overnight to replace the ones on strike, such as with many other jobs.

And I'm not saying this is the solution. Hopefully in a developed nation, we can come to a better solution WAY before it ever gets to that point. Just giving an example of what you had mentioned actually being the only option in some places.
 
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basically, the AMA favored political policies that kept the number of doctors low so doctors would be in demand and could receive high salaries.

however, the increasing need for medical providers has allowed other professions to encroach on our niche.

theoretically, we could just shift the AMA's political ties and funding back to keeping out the midlevels and play hardball if we don't get our way. however, the nursing lobby has more political power and funding than us and we can't strike due to ethical obligations. a public outcry is probably the only thing that could stave off the nursing lobby and that can be easily solved by gaining ground a little at a time.

this just leaves us watching helplessly as we get our jobs taken away. our best bet is to adapt and create a new niche. we might be relegated to hospital administration, academia, and research in the future.
 
this just leaves us watching helplessly as we get our jobs taken away. our best bet is to adapt and create a new niche. we might be relegated to hospital administration, academia, and research in the future.

I'd rather quit then do any of those options w/o the clinical aspect.
 
basically, the AMA favored political policies that kept the number of doctors low so doctors would be in demand and could receive high salaries.

however, the increasing need for medical providers has allowed other professions to encroach on our niche.

theoretically, we could just shift the AMA's political ties and funding back to keeping out the midlevels and play hardball if we don't get our way. however, the nursing lobby has more political power and funding than us and we can't strike due to ethical obligations. a public outcry is probably the only thing that could stave off the nursing lobby and that can be easily solved by gaining ground a little at a time.

this just leaves us watching helplessly as we get our jobs taken away. our best bet is to adapt and create a new niche. we might be relegated to hospital administration, academia, and research in the future.

This is something that always baffles me. Lobbies control policy. The more money your lobby has, the more policy will benefit you (record and movie labels trying to pass sopa, and the government initially backing it despite outcry and one year later they are trying again because the lobby owns them) how does the nursing lobby have more than physicians? Is the AMA just inefficient, do docs not make donations/pay dues, and or do they just not care about the mid level issue? To me it seems if every physician could spare % of their salary, they could build the most powerful health profession lobby. Money talks in Washington, maybe it's time to pay out a little to ensure the future of the profession (this is what pharma does). Is it just that docs are not united/don't work well together?

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There are a lot of physicians that are the same, like the anesthesiologists who have essentially done it to themselves to pad their salaries.

But other lobbies do this all the time, they put the work on someone else's back so the industry they represent profits or secures cheap labor. I'm not saying it's right, but it happens all the time. Why can't the AMA protect the non primary care fields, and end NP autonomy (I have far less problems with the PA model in most states.)
If this was the miaa they would have commercials showing the hours spent on training for docs compared to apns. Then some trustworthy figure would walk out and say, my family is worth the extra training, and yours should be too. Cue cheesy music. There are more suttle ways to accomplish the same thing. I worked in PR for 3 years, I've seen public affairs agencies change public opinion overnight without a single overt gesture.
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This is something that always baffles me. Lobbies control policy. The more money your lobby has, the more policy will benefit you (record and movie labels trying to pass sopa, and the government initially backing it despite outcry and one year later they are trying again because the lobby owns them) how does the nursing lobby have more than physicians? Is the AMA just inefficient, do docs not make donations/pay dues, and or do they just not care about the mid level issue? To me it seems if every physician could spare % of their salary, they could build the most powerful health profession lobby. Money talks in Washington, maybe it's time to pay out a little to ensure the future of the profession (this is what pharma does). Is it just that docs are not united/don't work well together?

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recently, we haven't had to defend our profession much. this can change in a hurry once the right people set the wheels in motion.

@CDI, it probably won't happen while we are practicing, but i share your opinion
 
how does the nursing lobby have more than physicians? Is the AMA just inefficient, do docs not make donations/pay dues, and or do they just not care about the mid level issue?

The consensue that I seem to hear from my involvement in organized medicine groups is the AMA does not have that great of support from the physician community. Many physicians find their specialty groups and state/county medical associations to better represent their and their patients needs.
 
The consensue that I seem to hear from my involvement in organized medicine groups is the AMA does not have that great of support from the physician community. Many physicians find their specialty groups and state/county medical associations to better represent their and their patients needs.

This is true, but the fractured nature of all the specialty societies dilutes the power to the point that the professional societies have very little influence. The nurses have a couple of very large and very powerful lobbies.
 
This is true, but the fractured nature of all the specialty societies dilutes the power to the point that the professional societies have very little influence. The nurses have a couple of very large and very powerful lobbies.

I completely agree that the fractured nature of speciality societies and PACs decreases the influence of physicians when it comes to policial advocacy. Unfortunately, many physicians feel that the AMA does not provide the biggest value for their advocacy dollars whether it be because of disagreement on stances on controversial issues (ACA for examples) or a failure to do enough about issues that matter most to them (i.e. Continued cuts in payments)

While there is some specialization within nursing, it does not exist to the same degree that it does in medicine.
 
The consensue that I seem to hear from my involvement in organized medicine groups is the AMA does not have that great of support from the physician community. Many physicians find their specialty groups and state/county medical associations to better represent their and their patients needs.

Curious, what's the last major thing the AMA has accomplished? Is it lowering residency hours/week? I hope not, since 85% of programs don't even follow that either.

They can't even come up with a solution to fix the impending shortage in residency slots, yet they're throwing $10 million (down the drain) towards "advancing" medical education.

Hopefully we'll get some leadership in their sooner than later.
 
I think the public is definitely able to know if they're seeing an MD or not. If they feel that they want the benefit of the extra years of training and experience that a doctor can provide, and they have the means to pay extra for it, they will. If they want the benefit of a better overall experience, they'll likely follow word of mouth. If they know that they're getting refills on the same 3 meds they've been on for years, have no new complaints and are comfortable by an NP getting the new H&P done when they come to establish care, that seems like a slam dunk for the NP side of the world and I would be glad to have that patient's care taken over by a mid-level and check in every so often by chart review or actually seeing the patient.

If things become complex, I'll use my advanced skills and training to develop a plan and could hand it back to the NP. For instance, if it's what kind of antibiotic to give to a person with a viral URI, that's an easy one for either the NP or the MD to handle. The fact that my toes curled when I read about a mid-level prescribing a new fluoroquinolone without any sputum or swab results means that I could have spotted that issue in less than a second if it happened in front of me and I'd say that any other physician would have been able to do the same. By the way, if that person is also on 2 psych meds, an anti-hypertensive that needs to be upped again and 2 medications for cholesterol, I'm going to go ahead and take that one as all kinds of things are possible, management and outcomes related.

I would never have an anesthesia or ICU patient cared for by a mid-level as there is too much complexity possible at any one time to manage quickly and effectively at their level of training. I don't believe having a supervising anesthesiologist wandering from OR to OR doing spot checks is enough should, gasp, 2 ORs run into complications at the same time. There is no way a PA or NP has the depth of training to manage critical patients and that is why you will never see them in that setting. I wouldn't sign off on their charts if they were forced down my throat, plain and simple. The rest is the gray area that we seem to see the most press about. Without getting too much into it, the NPs are pushing for more scope to benefit themselves, the medical doctors are pushing back for the safety of the patients.

This may seem like the ultimate non sequitur after the above, but if doctors are having such a hard time forming a union, why don't we just join the nursing one and call it something like the "Healthcare Practitioner's Union" and get a lot more leverage right away? The same could happen if the DOs joined up with the MDs and fought for their needs together. Sadly, I doubt either will happen in the span of my career.
 
The same could happen if the DOs joined up with the MDs and fought for their needs together. Sadly, I doubt either will happen in the span of my career.

We are a lot closer to that than you think. Some of the senior faculty in my school are DOs, and we aren't a 'low tier' school either. A genuine threat from midlevels is more likely to bring MD/DO together than it is to be divisive.
 
Curious, what's the last major thing the AMA has accomplished? Is it lowering residency hours/week? I hope not, since 85% of programs don't even follow that either.

They can't even come up with a solution to fix the impending shortage in residency slots, yet they're throwing $10 million (down the drain) towards "advancing" medical education.

Hopefully we'll get some leadership in their sooner than later.

The last major thing that I can attribute to them would be the ACA. Without the AMA's support and lobbying on the issue, Congress may have had a little more difficulty getting that passed. Whether the ACA was an great accomplishment for patients or a colossal mistake that hurts patients and doctors, I'll leave that up to you to decide.
 
Please be kind to me. I am a new forum member seeking both personal and professional clarity on the issue of what constitutes an appropriate role and scope of practice as a mid-level provider. I appreciate the input and the multiple perspectives presented here and I understand this to be a very complex issue, and one with many stakeholders.

To set the context for my comments, let me disclose that I am a doctorally trained psychologist who re-trained in mid-life as a physician assistant. I have been working in a family medicine setting for the three years since my graduation from a medical school affiliated, top-five ranked PA program. I graduated near the top of my class academically and subsequently passed my boards in the top 1% of PAs the year I took the certifying exam. I am in a setting with an exceptionally bright, informed, experienced, and caring supervising physician. And..........I am truly miserable in my new profession.

For many of the reasons already well articulated on this thread, the role of mid-level provider (the profession strongly dislikes that word, by the way) is a very difficult role to assume. I think this particularly true for PAs, as the public at least has some understanding of what a nurse-practitioner is. Physicians as well often either over (or under) estimate the capabilities and appropriate role of their mid-level colleagues (I hope this is not an offensive use of the term). I am entangled every day in the significant discrepancy between my training/experience on the one hand, and what the system of organized medicine expects of me on the other hand. It weighs on me daily.

Borne solely from my experience and three years of personal angst, here is what I have come to believe regarding this quagmire:

1) I am not, and never will be, equal to a physician in training, knowledge, and expertise in the art and science of medicine. This does not mean that I will not grow and advance both my knowledge and skill, and become increasingly competent and valued. But I will never be a physician. I accept this as the consequence of my choices. I did not choose, at my advanced age, to spend 7-8 years in medical training. There would have been insufficient time left to practice to make this a viable pathway.

2) Because of this, I (and others at my level of training) should not be granted autonomy of practice in medicine. Perhaps with some degree of egocentrism, and certainly without full knowledge because I have never trained as a NP, I unequivocably believe that PA training is superior to NP training in rigor and scope. Hence, I even more strongly do not support autonomous practice for NPs.

3) With regard to "truth in advertising," so to speak, of course mid-level providers ahould be identified as such to all: office staff, patients, family members, etc. Recall that I hold a doctorate in a healthcare profession and have been called "Doctor" for more than 20 years in that setting, and additionally in the university where I taught for 17 years. But I am not a "doctor of medicine" in the same way that a DNP is not a doctor of medicine. I would gently point out that medicine does not own the title of "doctor," (e.g., see above regarding academia). However, the potential confusion that would arise in a medical setting for multiple providers to be co-opting the title outweighs, in my opinion, any argument to the contrary. In the practice of medicine, "doctor" has always connoted "physician," and this should not be wantonly altered.

In fact, in my state, mid-levels must be identified as such, on their person, in writing, in size 16 font or greater, at all times. This is clearly stated in the licensing law, and I consequently had "Physician Assistant" embroidered on my white coat. My SP did not require this, and sometimes teases me about my "uniform," but I am both in full compliance and full agreement with the law. Yet, I have seen very, very few other mid-levels in may area conform to the law in this way.

4) In summary, I remain confused and conflicted about where, or if, I fit into the medical machinery as a practicing PA. In many ways, I believe myself to be a caring, compassionate, and relatively competent provider of at least some medical services. I have a particular interest in women's health, and I have recently performed pap test and pelvic exams on many women in my community who, because of embarrassment regarding their size (BMIs in the 40-50 range) and discomfort with my male SP, have neglected their gynecologic care, some for decades.

But again, I am not a physician. I worry daily (perhaps even multiple times per day) about what I know versus what I do not know. My SP is generous in his availability to me, and graciously didn't fire me when I said I did not feel comfortable covering the practice alone, as a new graduate, when he went on his yearly fishing trip. I am truly, truly interested in how others, at various levels of the medical hierarchy, view what my role and my contributions might be, because I have not been able to resolve this on my own, and I may not be in agreement with my own professional lobby.

Thanks in advance for your continued thoughts. I've benefitted already from the views on this thread.
 
Please be kind to me. I am a new forum member seeking both personal and professional clarity on the issue of what constitutes an appropriate role and scope of practice as a mid-level provider. I appreciate the input and the multiple perspectives presented here and I understand this to be a very complex issue, and one with many stakeholders.

To set the context for my comments, let me disclose that I am a doctorally trained psychologist who re-trained in mid-life as a physician assistant. I have been working in a family medicine setting for the three years since my graduation from a medical school affiliated, top-five ranked PA program. I graduated near the top of my class academically and subsequently passed my boards in the top 1% of PAs the year I took the certifying exam. I am in a setting with an exceptionally bright, informed, experienced, and caring supervising physician. And..........I am truly miserable in my new profession.

For many of the reasons already well articulated on this thread, the role of mid-level provider (the profession strongly dislikes that word, by the way) is a very difficult role to assume. I think this particularly true for PAs, as the public at least has some understanding of what a nurse-practitioner is. Physicians as well often either over (or under) estimate the capabilities and appropriate role of their mid-level colleagues (I hope this is not an offensive use of the term). I am entangled every day in the significant discrepancy between my training/experience on the one hand, and what the system of organized medicine expects of me on the other hand. It weighs on me daily.

Borne solely from my experience and three years of personal angst, here is what I have come to believe regarding this quagmire:

1) I am not, and never will be, equal to a physician in training, knowledge, and expertise in the art and science of medicine. This does not mean that I will not grow and advance both my knowledge and skill, and become increasingly competent and valued. But I will never be a physician. I accept this as the consequence of my choices. I did not choose, at my advanced age, to spend 7-8 years in medical training. There would have been insufficient time left to practice to make this a viable pathway.

2) Because of this, I (and others at my level of training) should not be granted autonomy of practice in medicine. Perhaps with some degree of egocentrism, and certainly without full knowledge because I have never trained as a NP, I unequivocably believe that PA training is superior to NP training in rigor and scope. Hence, I even more strongly do not support autonomous practice for NPs.

3) With regard to "truth in advertising," so to speak, of course mid-level providers ahould be identified as such to all: office staff, patients, family members, etc. Recall that I hold a doctorate in a healthcare profession and have been called "Doctor" for more than 20 years in that setting, and additionally in the university where I taught for 17 years. But I am not a "doctor of medicine" in the same way that a DNP is not a doctor of medicine. I would gently point out that medicine does not own the title of "doctor," (e.g., see above regarding academia). However, the potential confusion that would arise in a medical setting for multiple providers to be co-opting the title outweighs, in my opinion, any argument to the contrary. In the practice of medicine, "doctor" has always connoted "physician," and this should not be wantonly altered.

In fact, in my state, mid-levels must be identified as such, on their person, in writing, in size 16 font or greater, at all times. This is clearly stated in the licensing law, and I consequently had "Physician Assistant" embroidered on my white coat. My SP did not require this, and sometimes teases me about my "uniform," but I am both in full compliance and full agreement with the law. Yet, I have seen very, very few other mid-levels in may area conform to the law in this way.

4) In summary, I remain confused and conflicted about where, or if, I fit into the medical machinery as a practicing PA. In many ways, I believe myself to be a caring, compassionate, and relatively competent provider of at least some medical services. I have a particular interest in women's health, and I have recently performed pap test and pelvic exams on many women in my community who, because of embarrassment regarding their size (BMIs in the 40-50 range) and discomfort with my male SP, have neglected their gynecologic care, some for decades.

But again, I am not a physician. I worry daily (perhaps even multiple times per day) about what I know versus what I do not know. My SP is generous in his availability to me, and graciously didn't fire me when I said I did not feel comfortable covering the practice alone, as a new graduate, when he went on his yearly fishing trip. I am truly, truly interested in how others, at various levels of the medical hierarchy, view what my role and my contributions might be, because I have not been able to resolve this on my own, and I may not be in agreement with my own professional lobby.

Thanks in advance for your continued thoughts. I've benefitted already from the views on this thread.

Appreciate you taking the time to share. Could you elaborate why you are miserable in your job though? Workload? Recognition? Foundation? Pay?

It seems like you're a great team member to work with and clearly knowledgeable. You know and accept your role and seem to be staying within a role you are comfortable with (even if your SP asked you to do more at times).
 
Please be kind to me. I am a new forum member seeking both personal and professional clarity on the issue of what constitutes an appropriate role and scope of practice as a mid-level provider. I appreciate the input and the multiple perspectives presented here and I understand this to be a very complex issue, and one with many stakeholders.

To set the context for my comments, let me disclose that I am a doctorally trained psychologist who re-trained in mid-life as a physician assistant. I have been working in a family medicine setting for the three years since my graduation from a medical school affiliated, top-five ranked PA program. I graduated near the top of my class academically and subsequently passed my boards in the top 1% of PAs the year I took the certifying exam. I am in a setting with an exceptionally bright, informed, experienced, and caring supervising physician. And..........I am truly miserable in my new profession.

For many of the reasons already well articulated on this thread, the role of mid-level provider (the profession strongly dislikes that word, by the way) is a very difficult role to assume. I think this particularly true for PAs, as the public at least has some understanding of what a nurse-practitioner is. Physicians as well often either over (or under) estimate the capabilities and appropriate role of their mid-level colleagues (I hope this is not an offensive use of the term). I am entangled every day in the significant discrepancy between my training/experience on the one hand, and what the system of organized medicine expects of me on the other hand. It weighs on me daily.

Borne solely from my experience and three years of personal angst, here is what I have come to believe regarding this quagmire:

1) I am not, and never will be, equal to a physician in training, knowledge, and expertise in the art and science of medicine. This does not mean that I will not grow and advance both my knowledge and skill, and become increasingly competent and valued. But I will never be a physician. I accept this as the consequence of my choices. I did not choose, at my advanced age, to spend 7-8 years in medical training. There would have been insufficient time left to practice to make this a viable pathway.

2) Because of this, I (and others at my level of training) should not be granted autonomy of practice in medicine. Perhaps with some degree of egocentrism, and certainly without full knowledge because I have never trained as a NP, I unequivocably believe that PA training is superior to NP training in rigor and scope. Hence, I even more strongly do not support autonomous practice for NPs.

3) With regard to "truth in advertising," so to speak, of course mid-level providers ahould be identified as such to all: office staff, patients, family members, etc. Recall that I hold a doctorate in a healthcare profession and have been called "Doctor" for more than 20 years in that setting, and additionally in the university where I taught for 17 years. But I am not a "doctor of medicine" in the same way that a DNP is not a doctor of medicine. I would gently point out that medicine does not own the title of "doctor," (e.g., see above regarding academia). However, the potential confusion that would arise in a medical setting for multiple providers to be co-opting the title outweighs, in my opinion, any argument to the contrary. In the practice of medicine, "doctor" has always connoted "physician," and this should not be wantonly altered.

In fact, in my state, mid-levels must be identified as such, on their person, in writing, in size 16 font or greater, at all times. This is clearly stated in the licensing law, and I consequently had "Physician Assistant" embroidered on my white coat. My SP did not require this, and sometimes teases me about my "uniform," but I am both in full compliance and full agreement with the law. Yet, I have seen very, very few other mid-levels in may area conform to the law in this way.

4) In summary, I remain confused and conflicted about where, or if, I fit into the medical machinery as a practicing PA. In many ways, I believe myself to be a caring, compassionate, and relatively competent provider of at least some medical services. I have a particular interest in women's health, and I have recently performed pap test and pelvic exams on many women in my community who, because of embarrassment regarding their size (BMIs in the 40-50 range) and discomfort with my male SP, have neglected their gynecologic care, some for decades.

But again, I am not a physician. I worry daily (perhaps even multiple times per day) about what I know versus what I do not know. My SP is generous in his availability to me, and graciously didn't fire me when I said I did not feel comfortable covering the practice alone, as a new graduate, when he went on his yearly fishing trip. I am truly, truly interested in how others, at various levels of the medical hierarchy, view what my role and my contributions might be, because I have not been able to resolve this on my own, and I may not be in agreement with my own professional lobby.

Thanks in advance for your continued thoughts. I've benefitted already from the views on this thread.

This thread and the angst in it are not directed against you. I think PAs are valued team members and many docs have an awesome working relationship with them. The problem is NPs and their highly political push for full autonomy. PA curriculum is unarguably better and has more academic rigor. It is an absolute scandal that NPs are pushing for independent practice considering the curriculum of DNP programs.

As for being miserable, perhaps find a different practice environment or specialty? That is the one huge advantage you have, as many docs themselves are trapped in a specialty they dislike with no escape.
 
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