Segregation and Medical School - What has irritated me about the application process

[Scooby Doo]

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Ok...I am posting this here too..Just want to see others views on it. This is one of the things in this application proccess that managed to irritate me a lot.

I am not a URM...but at every school I go to, it seems that anyone who is Black, Hispanic, etc etc is escorted away from all the rest of the applicants and given a "special tour", "special lunch", and "special what not"....

I am not against having a couple special hours for them, but come on! Isn't the whole point of medical school and getting over the color of your skin BY INTERACTING with everyone?!?!?

Mount Sinai for example had a second look weekend for ONLY minorities. I am white...I didn't hear a peep from them! I wouldn't mind this AS MUCH if they then included then another second look weekend for everyone else. But hey, I could give a crap about the color of ones skin when making a friend. It's doesn't matter to me. what matters is like interests and the personality of the person who I am around. WHy not make the second look weekend for everyone and then have special workshops for those who are URMs to deal with special issues?

They want to preach integration and looking beyond skin color..but as soon as the integration begins, they want to show the interviewee how many other URM's or whatever are at the school. Sure...that's fine. But then they run off and act like the rest of us don't exist. How can they expect the formation of cliques to take part WITHOUT the color of skin being a factor when they start doing this..

Same thing happened at NYU. There was one black interviewee there the day I interviewed. I saw him walk into the office...Basically not be allowed to come talk to anyone else in the interveiwing room (there were about 10 of us waiting for our interview)...and before he could sit down was taken away by another black medical student....ok..fine fine...BUT, then we got our tour, he had his own separate tour with the same student ...SEPARATE from the rest of us! Then comes lunch....they go and sit at a VERY small table alone with one other medical student.

OK..if I was a URM and they were doing this to me, I sure as hell would not get a good impression of the school. Did anyone else have stories like this?

I just think it's total bull****. A school should be able to show minorities in the school and options available to them without segregating the individual from the rest of the interviewees FOR THE WHOLE DAMN DAY! I sure hope they don't do that when med school starts. Such as, we have one class for the white people, and one class for the URM's....it's just ridiculous!

I want to interact with each and every student without any regards to their skin color!

 

[BushBaby]

I am considered an URM, but I wasn't escorted by anybody at my interviews.... 🙁

Don't take it to the heart-it's more of a networking thang from what I've heard. You meet current/alumni URM's (if you want to call them that). This also gives the URM a chance to ask questions that he/she might have regarding URM issues in the school.

A friend of mine (URM) went to Syracruse for an interview and she had to decide between attending the Minority Student luncheon or the Women in Medicine luncheon. It's all done to make you feel comfortable and well represented in the institution.

 

[Maple]

wow! That's pretty amazing..I guess some schools feel that minority students need special attention because there are so few of them? I don't like this policy either..its as if a school is actually creating racial segregation by separating minorities from the rest of the applicant pool! Of course their objective is just the opposite, they want the minorities to feel comfortable..but by doing this they are alienating the rest of the students and possibly setting the stage for future racial tensions!

This actually hasn't happened in any of my interviews..but then there weren't that many URMs in most of them..

 

[TommyGunn04]

We've had a similar debate raging for quite some time here at Brown (for undergrads). There's a separate orientation program for minority students, and a number of people have accused this program of doing more harm than good. In our case, I'm not sure what to think, but you've definitely made some great points here Scoobs. We must wonder, how can a school foster an environment characterized by equality, fairness, respect, etc. when its screening process clearly avoids such integration, regardless of the intentions which originally necessitated the creation of special programs for minority students? It seems to me that it sends a clear separatory message. Anyway, there's my 2 cents...

 

[BushBaby]

Also I think these programs are put together/initiated by the Minority Affairs department of each school. If a particular school has a strong minority affairs department, they are more likely to sponsor these weekend things.

Maybe it's just me, but I like them. I went a predominately white undergrad(for 2 years before transfering out) and the minority get-to-together thing they gave us at orientation helped me out alot in terms of getting comfortable and building a support system. Not to say I didn't make friends with other people later on, but as a freshman, it helps.

 

[MandM06]

I am a URM (Black) and I must say that I agree with some of the points you made. I don't want to be singled out of the group and given special treatment just because of my ethnicity (Should I expect the same when I start a residency?). However, it was helpful to get the MINORITY perspective at the medical school. The only way that the schools can accomplish this is by allowing me to talk to they minority students and doctors. I mean how else would I have known if any of the schools would have been a good fit.
However, I personally would feel very annoyed if I was given special treatment (personal tours..am I that special 😕 )JUST for being a minority. That was a major reason for me being turned off by some schools. But Southwestern had a day set aside for minority acceptee's and I found it very entertaining and helpful. I guess it was just the way they presented it.

We all must understand that there is HUGE gap between the number of minorities seeking medical help and the number of minority physicians available to provide help. Most schools are trying decrease this gap by "recruiting" (yes it sounds shady) qualified minority applicants.

I'm glad that you brought this topic up Scooby 😀 . It just frustrates me whe SDNer's shy away from the "minority" topic 😡 . Speak up!!! This is what the forum is for!!

 

[E'01]

Scoob I started a thread a while ago on the topic of racial seg. at interviews. I'm a URM, and I found that my interviewers (who were also Black)were a little more uptight and uncomfortable - I assume it has to be hard when they report back to the admissions committee and have to comment on me in an objective manner - perhaps they feel they have to curb their enthusiasm (if they feel such) so not to come off being seen as partial. In other words, if they were to display any sense of positivity about me being a good candidate for their school, would the other committee members think they're displaying favoritism due to race? There was one exception to the above, when I was interviewed by the head of Minority Affairs - who I assume carry more clout in admissions decisions - the interview was more relaxed and free-flowing. As for re-visit weekends and summer prep programs - I'm really disappointed that these are targeted for certain races. I would love to meet the other members of my class and interacting only with other URMs at these kind of programs has only highlighted the difficulties that some students will have when being integrated in the fall. All I can think as to why these programs are in existence is because of government funds that are allocated to medical schools to increase the URM population (is this even working?). I don't think they serve to truly promote diversity, communication and acceptance among the different races.

 

[bebe2]

I hear what you are saying to an extent. I am with you on Mt. Sinai. I had a great time, but I thought they could of had a weekend for all students at some point. At my Pitt interview we had a talk with the Director of Minority Affairs and at Case,I had a separate session with Case minority students.

I felt a little weird at Case this being my first time having this sort of thing. It was nice to meet students but the number one question most URMs ask is .....do you as a student feel supported by the administration? Also, how are race relations in X town? For me that is a very important issue. I know nothing about some of these cities and I want to know if I am going to feel like an alien.

Others want to know about student organizations (how big is your SNMA chapter?), extent of schools involvement in the community, etc.

These weekends/activities/special interviews are given because they want to show URMs that they can be supported by the school.

I do feel like (ex. Sinai) if there is a minority weekend there should also be a general weekend. Or just have one big one!

Donno I guess I have mixed feelings

 

[MandM06]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by bebe2:
•
I do feel like (ex. Sinai) if there is a minority weekend there should also be a general weekend. Or just have one big one!

•••••Southwestern had a general weekend along with the Minority day and this is what made me feel very comfortable with the school.

 

[A-Phi-A]

Dayumm. I didnt get a special tour or anything at either of the schools at which I interviewed 🙂 . At downstate I ventured upstairs to check out the minority affairs office and pow wow with the folks up there at bit, but apart from that I toured and did everything else with the rest of my potential classmates.

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by MandM06:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by bebe2:
•
I do feel like (ex. Sinai) if there is a minority weekend there should also be a general weekend. Or just have one big one!

•••••Southwestern had a general weekend along with the Minority day and this is what made me feel very comfortable with the school.•••••Yes, I agree. I am totally for minorities having various days or workshops to find out how supportive the school is. The point where it gets annoying is when if you try to interact with someone and they are pulled away from you as soon as you start talking to them.

At my Yale interview, I was chatting with a nice girl..then all of a sudden someone from the admissions office came up to her and said she had to leave. She kind of looked at me and rolled her eyes and said she was off to another minority thing...(i can't remember exactly). I didn't even get her damn phone number! j/k 🙂 But I basically chatted with her for 5 or so minutes and really enjoyed that time together...but then she disappeared for the whole rest of the time!

 

[jmejia1]

I was usually the only URM in my interviews and I didn't get any special treatment other than the admissions office inviting me to go take a look at thier office of diversity.

I think thier is a general grudge agaisnt URMs and especially from applicants that feel they otherwise would've landed an acceptance in California if it weren't for URMs. But at least from my MSAR with data from 1997 ( I can't find the book at this moment) Davis, San Diego, and Irvine together couldn't come up with more than 10 enrolled URMs--that's 10 out of 360 students.

What's wrong if some schools do try to win these few outstanding URMs since there are so few of them and it has been shown that these students are more likely to serve a sector of great need?

 

[Cure Finder]

I'm sick and tired of people like Scooby throwing up the same old tired arguments. Just a couple of months ago there was the post labeled "Controversial topics" that got everybody all fired up. I don't agree that minorities should be totally segregated during the interviewing process, but I do believe they should be given ample time to converse with other minorities students. Let's use our imagination for a little while, Scooby. Let's say when you wake up tomorrow whites will be an URM. At almost every medical in the nation, whites would make up less than 10% of the schools' classes. You have very few if any relatives in tbe medical profession and as is, you know very little about the life of a medical student. My question is, who are you most likely to seek advice from? It's a proven fact that like is generally attracted to like. If you are a Latino interviewee your are more likely to seek out a Latino medical student to learn about their own particular experiences at that school. A female interviewee will most likely seek out a female medical student when concerning topics such as relationships and having children while in medical school. It's not that URM want to be segregated from whites or that woman think that men don't have a clue about relationships or having children. Some people are simply better equipped to give you a particular perspective on things. Just like if I'm not white, I can't accurately explain what it was like to be a white person who saw what you did on the day of your interview and interpreted it the way that you did. What you saw as being left out, that minority interviewee may have viewed it as an unique opportunity to ask the minority medical student questions and to see the medical school through their eyes.
I think your original post is no more than a young person being mad that someone else was offered something that you weren't. There are a whole lot of things in life that more qualified, equally qualified, and less qualified people will be offered, that sad to say you won't. Sorry Sweetie that's life! As an applicant, in regards to those minority interviewees there is only one thing that you need to be concerned with. If they are eventually accepted they will have to jump over the same hurdles and maneuver through the same hoops that you will. All those private tours and Second look weekends aren't going help them pass physiology, histology or human anatomy. I really believe that you need to take your focus off of such trivial things and start concentrating

 

[Dr. Will]

Let me remind you that not all latinos are considered URM's. Most of us are not classified as such.

 

[none]

Personally, I didn't experience this at any of the interviews I went on, but I guess MSTP people are already segregated. I'm very much against the re-visit weekend being only for minorities. That's blatant racism. That said, the other stuff...isn't so bad. I mean URMs should get ample time to meet with current URM students. Also, don't forget that very often URMs have to actually do extra interviews in terms of meeting with Multicultural affairs directors and such.

 

[simpleton]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•I'm sick and tired of people like Scooby throwing up the same old tired arguments. Just a couple of months ago there was the post labeled "Controversial topics" that got everybody all fired up. I don't agree that minorities should be totally segregated during the interviewing process, but I do believe they should be given ample time to converse with other minorities students. Let's use our imagination for a little while, Scooby. Let's say when you wake up tomorrow whites will be an URM. At almost every medical in the nation, whites would make up less than 10% of the schools' classes. You have very few if any relatives in tbe medical profession and as is, you know very little about the life of a medical student. My question is, who are you most likely to seek advice from? It's a proven fact that like is generally attracted to like. If you are a Latino interviewee your are more likely to seek out a Latino medical student to learn about their own particular experiences at that school. A female interviewee will most likely seek out a female medical student when concerning topics such as relationships and having children while in medical school. It's not that URM want to be segregated from whites or that woman think that men don't have a clue about relationships or having children. Some people are simply better equipped to give you a particular perspective on things. Just like if I'm not white, I can't accurately explain what it was like to be a white person who saw what you did on the day of your interview and interpreted it the way that you did. What you saw as being left out, that minority interviewee may have viewed it as an unique opportunity to ask the minority medical student questions and to see the medical school through their eyes.
I think your original post is no more than a young person being mad that someone else was offered something that you weren't. There are a whole lot of things in life that more qualified, equally qualified, and less qualified people will be offered, that sad to say you won't. Sorry Sweetie that's life! As an applicant, in regards to those minority interviewees there is only one thing that you need to be concerned with. If they are eventually accepted they will have to jump over the same hurdles and maneuver through the same hoops that you will. All those private tours and Second look weekends aren't going help them pass physiology, histology or human anatomy. I really believe that you need to take your focus off of such trivial things and start concentrating•••••Did you read and comprehend Scooby's post? I don't think he neccessarily was against the things you mentioned. Instead of putting words in people's mouth please read more carefully. Scoob am I wrong here but this certainly isn't what you were stating originally and contrary to what 'Cure Finder' said, I don't think you meant to inflame anyone. The gist of what he was saying: •••quote:••• A school should be able to show minorities in the school and options available to them without segregating the individual from the rest of the interviewees FOR THE WHOLE DAMN DAY! I sure hope they don't do that when med school starts. Such as, we have one class for the white people, and one class for the URM's....it's just ridiculous!

I want to interact with each and every student without any regards to their skin color!
••••]

For once I think Scooby has made a valid and rational post <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

 

[Cure Finder]

Dr. Will,
I sorry if I offended you. I know that not all Latinos are not considered URM, I just did feel like typing all the various breakdowns. Actually I don't think my post applies soley to URM. I believe that everybody irregardless of race gains sense of pride when they see a physician of the same ethnicity as they are. It let's us see just how attainable that goal actually is. I think that stands true whether your Irish, Jewish, African, or Chinese.

 

[souljah1]

I don't think Scooby said anything that even remotely suggests that minorities get 'special attention'. I think he was saying that they should have efforts to make sure URM's make the necessary connections they need in order to feel comfortable, but why are they segregated from the rest of the interviewees? I don't see anything wrong with that. Segregating reinforces that people feel more comfortable with their own. In medical school, it would be really nice if we could strive for an ideal, that we are all alike at the most fundamental and the most complex levels. I don't think Scooby deserved all the smack you put on him. Seemed to me that he wasn't jealous of the special treatment, but just felt that it seemed to make the URM's he met, as well as himself, feel a bit strange.

peace.

 

[SicVic]

Err not worth discussing - Like listed above there are strong reasons to try and recuirt URM.
Scobby if it were up to you - what would you do to try and increase the population of URM physicians in this country?

Lets take another angle to this topic which has been beaten to death with just complaints upon complaints. How about: verbalize ways to solve the problem of the low population of practicing URM physicians.

 

[Dr. Will]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•Dr. Will,
I sorry if I offended you. I know that not all Latinos are not considered URM, I just did feel like typing all the various breakdowns. Actually I don't think my post applies soley to URM. I believe that everybody irregardless of race gains sense of pride when they see a physician of the same ethnicity as they are. It let's us see just how attainable that goal actually is. I think that stands true whether your Irish, Jewish, African, or Chinese.•••••Don't worry, I wasn't offended. Just wanted to make sure that everyone understood this. I personally don't like the fact that the latino group is seperated the way it is. The asian population isn't. Anyways, I don't want to make this into another URM argument.

 

[Cure Finder]

Actually I did re-read Scooby's post after I replied to his original. I'm still kind of confused about his argument. My reply was based solely on the language used and specifically things stated in his original post. My point is that the purpose of the interview is not necessarily to bond or to extensively interact with other interviewees. It's our chance to learn as much about the school as possible and for them to learn as much about us as possible. We only have one day to interview so if there is down time to talk to and meet or interviewee thats a plus. However, if a interviewee has to leave it I don't think that it should be taken personally. The fact that he got so mad and mentioned his race along with the fact that the interviewee removed from the group were minorities. Made me believe that some of his anger was rooted in somethingmor than not having the opportunity to interact more with fellow interviewees.

__________________________________________________
Mount Sinai for example had a second look weekend for ONLY minorities. I am white...I didn't hear a peep from them! I wouldn't mind this AS MUCH if they then included then another second look weekend for everyone else.
__________________________________________________

 

[Scooby Doo]

Simpleton: for once i agree with you and thank you for defending my post.

Cure Finder: Goddamn..what the **** crawled up your ass and bit you? I am basically bringing up the point that if a medical school is striving so hard to look beyond race, then why do they constantly segregate everyone. You are so out of line man...jeez...I never said anything bad about minorities and what you say in your post I agree with..except when you say I am holding a grudge. You have 13 posts..I don't know you at all..you are not coming off too great to me right now.

TRIVIAL? you call making friends and interacting with a small class of 100 people trivial? What do you do?? go to class for 5 hours, go home and lock yourself in your damn room? Oh please...you interact with everyone! I need to FOCUS? Focus on what? Should I just ****ing lock my doors and go lay down on my bed and read books all day? screw you man!

I brought in my race for the sole purpose of adding perspective. I was wondernig what other people thought of the treatment they recieved. Simple!

You want to know the friggin purpose of my post? It wasn't me whining about something I didn't get. There IS one thing I was kind of perturbed by..and that is the fact that MOUNT SINAI did NOT invite anyone but minorities back for a visit...I went on my own second look day when I was in New York another time and fell in love with the school even more...but if they did not even give me that opportunity, oh well. All the other schools DID give me that opportunity...and since i have fallen in love with another school 🙂
Got iT??

Oh yea buddy (Don't call me ****nig sweetie goddamnit..i ain't your kid!)....I don't have ANYONE in the medical field. in your post you made it seem like since I am white I must have rich little parents who are doctors! Well you know what, if am having issues in medical school, I will go to that person I find first..be it a him or a her...or a white person or a latino or a black or whatever...

DID YOU EVEN GET THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST?!??!?!

IT IS A CALL TO LOOK BEYOND SKIN COLOR Something I guess that you are unable to do..

since the first thing you do is cry out little baby white boy didn't get something he wanted...

 

[Scooby Doo]

CureFinder: I was not bringing up anything about ADMISSIONS for URMs. I was just bringing up the interaction part.

If they segregate URMs from the rest of the other class population now, are they going to do it throughout medical school? What sort of cooperative environment is that?

I am not even gonna keep going on this..you obviously thought I was talking about something entirely different...

There is the word "piss off" in the title which I have taken off b/c it conveys the wrong attitute. Irritate is not as harsh and hopefully won't mislead people like you...

OH yea...I was not trying to instigate anything...I was trying to find out what people thought of this and if they had similar experiences...

 

[Ceez]

damn. everyone needs to calm down in here

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by sicvic:
•Scobby if it were up to you - what would you do to try and increase the population of URM physicians in this country?

verbalize ways to solve the problem of the low population of practicing URM physicians.•••••We have the issue here that is super hard to deal with. If you want to increase the amount of URMs going into medicine....it's tough.

Medicine is not seen as very "lucrative" any more. And when it is, it is seen that way after lots of hard work...

How can you convince someone who comes from a family who makes 20K (tops) every year and lives in the ghetto to go take out 200K in loans to go to medical school? Go to school for at least 10 years! How can you do that?
Especially if they have someone down the street selling crack and making 1K a day!! Notice how selling crack is a felony but weed is only a misdemeanor? Wonder how that happened? Oh yea..crack is usually found in poor black neighborhoods...weed is found everywhere...

There are so many issues in this that need to be taken care of. In many poor, nonwhite communities, if a person decides to try to understand subjects better, they might sometimes be branded as trying to be an uncle tom or acting white and what not (please don't tell me I am generalizing everything...I know I am making a few generalizations..but relax)...

If some of the richer people would donate money to programs then that might help. There should be a form of affirmative action that takes into account region of birth and childhood and income rather than just skin color. This has been discussed too many times...
One thing, legalize drugs (take off the supply) or crack down to zero tolerance (take off demand)...this will make the only way to earn money doing it the legit way..

Any more ideas?

 

[leorl]

I'm with scoobs on this one. I'm a minority, but not a URM. If these people are trying to make the tenet that all races are treated equally, and that the medical community is as diverse as it says it is, then it is really rather hypocritical that they single out minorities, give them seperate talks and meals. That's nuts.

 

[TommyGunn04]

Here's an interesting thought experiment. What if schools had special 2nd look days, meetings, etc. for LGBT applicants? What if we were required to divulge our sexual orientation, and then schools actively recruited or gave special treatment to students with minority sexual orientations? Perhaps then schools should also have special sessions for color-blind students. Maybe it would also be productive to have separate sessions for students with separated/divorced parents or ones for students with siblings. After all, each of these "minority" groups of people have special needs and circumstances, and could surely benefit from a support system that addresses their unique perspective. (I hope that these comments can help us uncover some of our intuitions about this issue, from a different angle; they are not meant to offend, and I sincerely apologize if they are taken the wrong way)

I understand the import of having special URM resources/programs/support systems, etc. But it seems to me that race and ethnicity are only two of the plethora of major differences and perspectives students bring to any given class. Thus in focusing only on race, one almost devalues the problems of non-minority students, suggesting they lack the need for support from someone "like them." So while these programs for URM students are undoubtedly helpful, and perhaps necessary, I think Scoobs was simply trying to point out that more often than not they put up more walls than they help to knock down. It's a sort of "catch 22." Whether you do or you don't, someone's going to criticize you.

 

[gbey]

I agree with Scooby Doo completely. And I am black.

 

[tonem]

Hey Scoob,

I think it has to do with the fact that well-qualified URMs are a hot commodity and there is competition between various schools to get them to enroll. Much the same as there is for MD/PhD types. How many second look weekends, interviews etc... did you go to for free...ie: the school picked up the tab for just about everything? How many free rides were you offered? The "special" treatment is a recruiting tool.

 

[souljah1]

I'd be offended if I were a URM and was invited to a revisit weekend based solely on my ethnicity. It is offensive. It kind of seems like those situations make you out to be not much more than a commodity. There is no reason why a school can't have a revisit weekend for everyone, and then maybe pull the URM's aside for a two hour meeting or so to meet other URM's at the school, the minority affairs officer, etc. Did you ever think that some URM's don't want to be labeled strictly by their ethinicity and may want to meet some of their potential ORM classmates?

I'm with Scooby on this one. I don't think he is acting like a spoiled white boy at all, I think he is desiring equality.

 

[ramkijai]

there are some interesting ideas here. for the most part i think scooby makes some good points. i wanted to make an argument as to why race is considered seperate from class. if we went to a class based system in which poor whites were given the same preference as URMs simple arithmentic will show that the number of URMs in medicine will drop considerably especially if class and income become the major factor. URMs will become VVVURMs (Very Very Very URMs). so we return to the original problem: what to do about racial disparity? Fairness is an elusive concept to me especially if one looks at it from a historical perspective. Affirative action began only in the early 70s under Nixon and it WORKED. the gap between whites and blacks closed considerably but i think we have given up on it too soon. and race is different from some of the other considerations that TommyGunn mentioned because of the history and sheer numbers of people affected. yeah we should reach out to everybody but let's try to fix this problem first. This response probably belongs in another thread but I though I would throw it out there anyway.

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by tonem:
•Hey Scoob,

I think it has to do with the fact that well-qualified URMs are a hot commodity and there is competition between various schools to get them to enroll. Much the same as there is for MD/PhD types. How many second look weekends, interviews etc... did you go to for free...ie: the school picked up the tab for just about everything? How many free rides were you offered? The "special" treatment is a recruiting tool.•••••You too have missed my point. I am not trying to say there is "special treatment" persay..I am trying to say that by trying to hard to show the URMs a "minority viewpoint" they are segregating them even more!

Got it?

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by souljah1:
•I'm with Scooby on this one. I don't think he is acting like a spoiled white boy at all, I think he is desiring equality.•••••I desire equality..however, I want to CLARIFY that I do not mind if a URM has special workshops or what not to feel more at home or gets some of these special priviledges...

For a second look weekend, that's something I think everyone should have...

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by tonem:
•How many second look weekends, interviews etc... did you go to for free...ie: the school picked up the tab for just about everything? How many free rides were you offered? •••••Absolutely None..why do you ask?

I worked my ass off to pay for this application process.

So you are saying that if I had a different skin color but had the exact same history these schools would have paid for everything for me?
That's dumb! The only way they should be paying for me is if I "financially" am unable to do it!

 

[racergirl]

I agree with Scooby. At my state school the day I interviewed, there were quite a few URMs. We did everything together--the Lunch, tour, meetings and presentations, etc. We all got a chance to talk a lot and it was really fun. At lunch, one girl asked me if I was going to dinner that night. "dinner?! What dinner?" At first I thought I had missed something--I didn't want to go to dinner--I had plans that night! We asked around and figured out among ourselves that the dinner was probably for URM applicants.

After reading through this post, I think my state school has hit on a pretty good solution--schools want to promote diversity, right? So they have everyone spend the day together, but then later have a special dinner for URMs so they can talk to current students. It may not be ideal, but it's better than pulling people away for the whole day. If they'd done that, I would have missed out on meeting some really cool people and (hopefully) future classmates!

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by ramkijai:
•there are some interesting ideas here. for the most part i think scooby makes some good points. i wanted to make an argument as to why race is considered seperate from class. if we went to a class based system in which poor whites were given the same preference as URMs simple arithmentic will show that the number of URMs in medicine will drop considerably especially if class and income become the major factor. URMs will become VVVURMs (Very Very Very URMs). so we return to the original problem: what to do about racial disparity? Fairness is an elusive concept to me especially if one looks at it from a historical perspective. Affirative action began only in the early 70s under Nixon and it WORKED. the gap between whites and blacks closed considerably but i think we have given up on it too soon. and race is different from some of the other considerations that TommyGunn mentioned because of the history and sheer numbers of people affected. yeah we should reach out to everybody but let's try to fix this problem first. This response probably belongs in another thread but I though I would throw it out there anyway.•••••Good point..but why do you think if they accepted the policy of taking class based admissions that whites would then outnumber the URMs even more? What is the reason for this?? I don't want to think about how it affects everything....why does this happen...and how can you change it?

 

[wes c. adle]

Scooby,

I agree. While interviewing at a school to remain nameless, a women came into the lobby where we were all waiting and handed out flyers to everyone who looked like a URM, inviting them to a reception (hosted by the Dean) later in the evening. She than invited everyone else (the white guys and gals). This really annoyed me and made me question the school's motives.

 

[ramkijai]

Scooby,
the way i thought about it is that it is a numbers game. If 70-80% of the US is white and about 20% live below the poverty line (is this too high?) then the pool of potential poor white applicants will be equal to the total pool of african american appliacnts (12% of pop) (i am assuming tendency to apply to med school is same in both groups). most african americans are above the poverty line so if class is the dominant factor then they will be even at a greater disadvantage from a numbers point of view and their numbers will plummet by more than half. then we are back to square one. i don't know any real answers and also agree with much of your frustration with how this plays out. i just think we should argue and talk about this as much as possible FREELY without dropping the racist card. and i still think we should not give up on AA just yet.

 

[MandM06]

"How do you increase the number of URM physicians?"

I think this is a problem that cannot be solved JUST by the intervention of the Medical schools or the government. I've seen AA crash and burn here in Texas. The only way URM's will make it TO and THRU medical school will be with the support of their respective community members (blacks, latino's, etc...) I wish I could say the community as a whole (all races) but how many of you could think of ONGOING situations where a people of a different race supported (financially and emotionally) a medical student or pre-med. I did have an Indian friend whose uncle (a physician) supported a young black kid thru college but I can't find this happening enough to call it the norm. If a URM student has the support of his/her family or community, they will excel in medical school. Sadly, this often is not the case. I could say that it is due to the poverty levels in the communities of URM's but I would just be speculating.

This is one solution that will work out for everyone and not leave the bitter taste of AA in mouth's of some people. Now if I could just find a way to accomplish this, I could win a Nobel 😀

 

[tonem]

I guess I did miss your point, I apologize. As for you second rebutal post I apologize again, I thought you were an MD/PhD. I know several MD/PhD that were flown around the country (for free), spent days being wined and dined (at pretty nice restraunts) during exclusive second-look weekends to eventually be PAID to go to a school for 9 years and earn their MD/PhDs. All because they ARE a commodity. If a school decides that they will participate in the AAMC goal of increasing the number of URMs why would they deviate from the formula they use to recruit MD/PhDs ?

 

[Scooby Doo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by tonem:
•I guess I did miss your point, I apologize. As for you second rebutal post I apologize again, I thought you were an MD/PhD. I know several MD/PhD that were flown around the country (for free), spent days being wined and dined (at pretty nice restraunts) during exclusive second-look weekends to eventually be PAID to go to a school for 9 years and earn their MD/PhDs. All because they ARE a commodity. If a school decides that they will participate in the AAMC goal of increasing the number of URMs why would they deviate from the formula they use to recruit MD/PhDs ?•••••Ah...yea..I am just regular M.D....

As to them having everything paid for...I think it is rough. But you know, if you look at the PHD programs, they pay for EVERYTHING for their students to come interview and everything. I might be wrong, but I think it's a little different with the mudphuds....I think they might only interview them if they are really interested..making that a better investment...

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

""We believe there is a place for social disadvantage in admission policy, but that race is a poor marker for it"

I read somewhere that the average URM comes from a family whose income is around $50,000. That is by no means poverty level.

AA is racism. Pure and simple. The only argument that has been successful is "compelling government interest". And even that point has some major flaws.

Anyway, if any of you were thinking of going to California medical schools and are concerned about AA, here's a good website with info on those who are accepted and their GPA and MCAT.. I was appalled the first time I saw this.

<a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html</a>
]

 

[tonem]

If you're not an MD/PhD stupid does that make you a regular stupid? (just kidding mr. prime)

R. Prime, that was my point exactly. I wasn't implying that special treatment for MD/PhDs is unfair. Medical schools get a majority of the grant money allocated to "mudphuds". Medical schools also profit (albeit in more intangible ways) by increasing the percentage of URMs enrolled in their programs so why is it unfair if they treat URMs like they treat MD/PhDs?

 

[quake]

I can't believe that most of you have allowed Scooby to throw dust into your eyes. It shows how easily people are willing to speak against any attempt at helping to improve the URM.

I will respond to every one of his supposedly good points.

1. Special tour, special lunch and special whatever. First of all the use of the word special is misleading. It suggests that the minority tour and lunch were in some way "better" than the others.I did not notice this at any of the seven interviews I did. So first of all I would not rule out the possibility that u may be exaggerating. However, even if there was another tour and lunch; is it not possible that the SNMA representative scheduled to meet the URM applicant had a schedule conflict later in the day arranged to kill two birds with a stone by meeting the applicant earlier in the day during the tour and lunch. To this end, it makes sense to me that they had lunch at a different table so as to address minority related issues without offending the likes of you.

About minorities being whisked away. I have to point out that the interview day is a very busy day. So what if you were not allowed to talk with one URM applicant. It so happened that the appointments he/she had were scheduled for the time you wanted to chit-chat; big deal. Let me also point out that some applicants sometimes have to catch an airplane out of town hence their appointments are almost back to back, precluding any opportunity for them to mingle. This goes for both blacks and whites.

Come on guys the interview day is a day set aside an applicant and a medschool to be aquainted. It is not a fraternity party for applicants! The fact that you don't get to mingle with URMs on interview day does not in any way mean that the school wants to make sure that blacks and whites are segregated. That is such a ridiculous notion.

Oh, now lets talk about the second look weekend. There are many schools that do not have an official second look weekend. Imagine that school X falls into that category. However, schook X happens to have a very active and organized SNMA organization OR lets say the minority affairs office in school X is so well-organized that they sponsor their own second look weekend. That is to say that, the group has its own funds and it is allowed to invite anybody they darn well please to take a second look. Why is that so hard to handle?

i suggest that you look deeper into your heart and try to ascertain why this bothers you so much. I think you probably played the race card without ample evidence to support your notions.

Cheers

 

[matthew0126]

god... i hate how some people read a post, have their own preconceived bias that the poster must be some bigot dingus, and then twist the original words into a totally different meaning. scoob, just ignore people like that, they are not worth wasting your time on. you were obviously making a totally different point and i know you are the last person to have anything against URM's. i feel ya, as it's happened to me too.

peace.

 

[quake]

matthew you say it happened to you too as if someone physically did something to you. If you had made a logical counter argument I would have replied them but since you have nothing to say but to worship scooby, I'll leave you to pontificate and deify the guy. Elements like you exacerbate the race situation.

 

[scootad.]

good post, quake.

 

[matthew0126]

quake... i wasn't talking about you originally. but now you've done what i was talking about to me. hehe, wahtever, i'm through arguing with people that want to get mad at something that is not there.

love for all races, peace.

 

[Keala]

First of all, I recently attended a URM revisit weekend for Harvard Med, which the school paid for. I don't think trips like this are "self-segregation" at all. They serve just the opposite purpose - to help incoming students adjust and feel comfortable at the school, as well as build a support system. Does this mean that these URM students will only hang around each other once school starts? Not at all, and the first year URM students who hosted us were proof of this. As an interesting side note, there was not a single person of my same ethnicity at the URM weekend and I did not feel excluded or left out at all. HMS also has a general second-look weekend for everyone.

Secondly, to Ryo-Ohki, for you to say "AA is racism, pure and simple" shows your ignorance and insensitivity to this issue. If you are solely looking at it from a personal standpoint, try looking at it from the viewpoint of an admissions officer who has the obligation to accept a class that reflects the diversity and needs of the community. We in California have felt the tension, disparities, and other devastating effects of the loss of AA here. I understand the frustration of some with the AA process, but please try to see the bigger picture as well.

 

[CANES2006]

I'm Hispanic, and I have not experienced any special treatment or special tours at any medical school that I interviewed at. On the contrary, at one medical school, I was treated like **** because of my race. Many times I have had to prove myself more "worthy" of applying to medical school than the other races. America, from my experience, is definitely not a meritocracy. You just learn to deal with it.