Semi Lost, Really Seeking Advice

[CorpChangers2017]

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Just turned 28 years old. Pondering a career change. 5 1/2 years out of undergrad. 2 years at CC with a 3.3 GPA, 2 years at university with 3.3, degree in pol sci. Last 4 1/2 years, have worked with restaurant corporation. Unique opportunity allowed me to become an owner at 23. 2 1/2 years of this, grew business a lot, etc - was recruited and hired by parent corporation to join operations. 2 years of that, have advanced and positively contributed greatly within company with process improvement, systems implementation, created leadership development programs, overseen international openings and operations, have trained over a thousand people, etc. At this point, I think my soft skills (communication, people management, people interaction, training, time management, general organization, etc) are on a very high level. I think I would interview extremely well. During the 2 years as owner had weekly 2 hour break working with poor children. Total hours probably in the low 100 range. I have also always been a solid test taker. However, my science background is basically non-existent.

I am pondering a career change. I love helping and developing people, but this industry is simply challenging. Despite my own high performance, I see the ups & downs of others in the corporate business and have come to the conclusion that I would something with more stability. I constantly preach to the younger folks that I work with that its a skills economy and simply put, you are worth what the skills you have acquired are worth. I am looking to acquire a skillset with a greater ability to help people that also happens to be a career with solid pay and stability. Simply put, I won't be interested in it if its nor working with and helping other people. And frankly, if I am to work 50+ hours as I do currently, I want to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel in the form of a few decades at $100-200k+ pay. I'd love to lead a company, but that simply takes too long and has more risk than I have learned I am comfortable with.

Single, no kids, party days largely behind me. Though certainly would like to have a family in the future, just not tomorrow (or next...few years).

I just do not know where to go from here. I know this could be a 6 years process minimum and want to get started ASAP. Ive read up on post bacc programs, but these all need 'acceptance'. Are they tough to get into? Am I able to reach out to local universities and just take classes as a non-degree student?

I am imagine there many pathways, I just have no idea what they are and welcome all assistance. Also, if anyone thinks the idea of going from my situation to attempting dental school is dumb, just say it. 🙂

I will not leave my job without a real solid plan. Appreciate any advice one has.

 

[Faefly]

It's not dumb to choose to change your career, let's put that out of the way.
Also, you are still young, so don't let that be a factor if you can or can't-do it)

But you need to first shadow some dentists to see if you like such career or not. Shadowing means you go to dental offices and ask if you can observe the dentist, you can start by asking your dentist if you can shadow him for a day or a week.

Secondly, you need to take the pre-requisites courses for dental schools:

biology 1 and 2 with lab 8 credits
general chemistry with lab 8 credits
organic chemistry with lab 8 credits
physics 1 and 2 with labs 6-8 credits ( non-calculus physis )
some schools require biochemistry and some others require other courses: anatomy and math classes

You need to get good scores for these pre-rquiste preferabally A or B

Then you need to prepare for the dat.

A plan: This is just a suggestion you can modify it or others can do that:


Spring semester: first-semester general chemistry 1+ Biology + their labs
Fall semester: general chemistry 2+biology + labs
spring semester: third-semester orgo + physics + anatomy+ Labs ( this is gonna be hard semester)
fall semester: orgo + physics + Biochemistry ( harder)
Or if you can handle it you can take some courses in summer. Some people like to take orgo 1 and 2 in summer, keep in mind Orgo is a tough subject!
dat prep 1 month to 3 or 6 depending on how much you can study during the day.

The dat is a multiple choice test around 4:30 hours composed of science part : BIO+GENchem+orgo, PAT part :they give you shapes and questions you have to find the right answers, and Reading part( this is the hardest, you need to be excellent reader, start from now preparing for it by reading scientific articles on daily basis) + Qr ( math that include (algebra+some statistics and gre style questions (no calculus) )
The good news is there are now many prep companies and book that will prepare you for that


If you have the prerequisites courses, make sure they are not 5 years old by the time you apply( call schools and ask them if they will accept them or not)

Also, you need to have volunteering hours around 100 hours ( does not have to be dental related)
Also, the shadowing I mentioned ( the unwritten rule is to have 100 hours from different dentists, but mostly from general dentists)

I would suggest that you declare a major in biology, why I say that? Because then you can register for classes easier than non-seeking degree student. I guess you can always not finish the program later on.

Some might suggest you a take post-grad program or a 1 to 2 years master in science program, I don't know about that but I suggest to call schools before you choose anything
For example this school offer a 1 year MS program:
Utilizing a 1-year MS program in Biomedical Sciences

Or talk to the pre-health advisor first.


Now, let's get back to studying before you register for classes go check the professor reputation via rate my professor site, and read the reviews about who is a good professor or somewhat not there to fail his students.

Also, you can join a dental club during your time in school, and better yet make your own club! ( didn't do that by the way)

What else? oh yeah, I forgot:

As you take classes, go to your professors offices and ask them questions and make a good relationship with them, this will be very helpful later on. Why?
First, they asnwer your questions, you understand the material better
Seond, they know that "John" wants to be a dentist and he is a good student, when comes the time that you ask them for a Letter of recommondation, they will gladly do that ( most of them anyway), there are websites where you can store their LOR for later when you apply.


You can do it. Don't give up in the middle of the road.

Best of luck!

 

[CorpChangers2017]

Great advice, thanks. I actually took the LSAT and did very well back in 2011, so the reading comprehension section should be ok for me! 😉

For the class schedule, is it possible to trim that to two semester and/or summers, or 3 semesters? Also, am I able to apply to dental schools without pre-req completion?

Are the post bacc programs hard to get into? And would this be viewed more favorably than simply taking non degree classes at a university? I am also totally gamer for summer programs if those exist as well. I would like to get this completed ASAP. 🙂

As for volunteering, I have over 100 hours with homeless kids from 2013-2015. This would be something separate from all the shadowing and volunteer hours, right?

 

[2TH MVR]

Dentistry requires a lot of manual dexterity with your hands. Obviously a learned skill set, but nonetheless important to dentistry. Medicine (primary care) relies on less manual dexterity and more learned knowledge. Both fields you are helping people. Shadow each profession and decide what is most interesting for you.

 

[CorpChangers2017]

I find the work-life balance of dentistry much more appealing tbh.

 

[CorpChangers2017]

Anybody else with feedback? Beginning to map out a course of action.

Are there any schools who are less GPA oriented and more into extra curricular/work experience? I would assume entrepreneurship is a solid one, no?

 

[Ranger_Danger]

Great advice, thanks. I actually took the LSAT and did very well back in 2011, so the reading comprehension section should be ok for me! 😉

For the class schedule, is it possible to trim that to two semester and/or summers, or 3 semesters? Also, am I able to apply to dental schools without pre-req completion?

Are the post bacc programs hard to get into? And would this be viewed more favorably than simply taking non degree classes at a university? I am also totally gamer for summer programs if those exist as well. I would like to get this completed ASAP. 🙂

As for volunteering, I have over 100 hours with homeless kids from 2013-2015. This would be something separate from all the shadowing and volunteer hours, right?

I was in a similar situation as you not too long ago. Graduated with a BA in 2009 and then did something else for ~5 years before I decided I wanted to be a dentist. It wasn't a cake walk, but it can be done.

1) As far as scheduling classes goes, the issue you're going to run into is that some classes are prereqs for other classes. My university wouldn't let me take Ochem until Gen Chem I & II were completed. So I decided to continue to work full time and broke down my prereqs like this:

Spring 2016: Bio I, Gen Chem I
Summer 2016: Gen Chem II
Fall 2016: Bio II, Ochem I
Spring 2017: Ochem II, Physics I
Summer 2017: DAT/Applications
Fall 2017: Physiology, Microbiology
Spring 2018: Anatomy, Biochemistry, Physics II (if needed)

You might be able to condense them down even more, but I would caution against it. There's no need to rush to failure. Going back to school after taking 5 years off was definitely more difficult than I anticipated. I had to relearn how to study and had to do well in my prereqs to compensate for an mediocre undergrad GPA. As long as you do well in your prereqs and do well on the DAT, a post-bacc program shouldn't be needed.

2) I was able to apply to 10 dental schools without all my prereqs being completed, but it depends on the school. As long as you complete all your prereqs being you matriculate, dental schools don't seem to care.

3) You are correct, volunteering hours are separate from shadowing hours.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[CorpChangers2017]

nvm

 

[CorpChangers2017]

I was in a similar situation as you not too long ago. Graduated with a BA in 2009 and then did something else for ~5 years before I decided I wanted to be a dentist. It wasn't a cake walk, but it can be done.

1) As far as scheduling classes goes, the issue you're going to run into is that some classes are prereqs for other classes. My university wouldn't let me take Ochem until Gen Chem I & II were completed. So I decided to continue to work full time and broke down my prereqs like this:

Spring 2016: Bio I, Gen Chem I
Summer 2016: Gen Chem II
Fall 2016: Bio II, Ochem I
Spring 2017: Ochem II, Physics I
Summer 2017: DAT/Applications
Fall 2017: Physiology, Microbiology
Spring 2018: Anatomy, Biochemistry, Physics II (if needed)

You might be able to condense them down even more, but I would caution against it. There's no need to rush to failure. Going back to school after taking 5 years off was definitely more difficult than I anticipated. I had to relearn how to study and had to do well in my prereqs to compensate for an mediocre undergrad GPA. As long as you do well in your prereqs and do well on the DAT, a post-bacc program shouldn't be needed.

2) I was able to apply to 10 dental schools without all my prereqs being completed, but it depends on the school. As long as you complete all your prereqs being you matriculate, dental schools don't seem to care.

3) You are correct, volunteering hours are separate from shadowing hours.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Great advice! It is great to know that I would be far from the first to attempt this. Where you applied over summer 2017 without all sciences complete, did they say anything about GPA? For example, with that schedule, one could have a 3.5 at time of application and than 3.3 at time of matriculation which I imagine would make one less competitive.

Were you accepted at any of the 20 schools you applied to?

Also, one last question: when it comes to taking classes for pre-req, how does one go about this? Would I need to apply to university all over again, or am I just able to sign up as a non degree student?

Thanks for all of your assistance

 

[Ranger_Danger]

Great advice! It is great to know that I would be far from the first to attempt this. Where you applied over summer 2017 without all sciences complete, did they say anything about GPA? For example, with that schedule, one could have a 3.5 at time of application and than 3.3 at time of matriculation which I imagine would make one less competitive.

Were you accepted at any of the 20 schools you applied to?

Also, one last question: when it comes to taking classes for pre-req, how does one go about this? Would I need to apply to university all over again, or am I just able to sign up as a non degree student?

Thanks for all of your assistance

You're welcome. Hope this helps:

1) No one commented on my GPA at the interviews that I've done so far, except to tell me how competitive it was (I ended up with a science GPA of ~3.75). Not sure I understand the rest of your question though. If my GPA decreases, I suppose dental schools could rescind an offer of admission. However, I have never heard of that happening and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

2) I only applied to 10 schools; I couldn't justify the extra $1500 to apply to 10 more. Ask me again on 12/1/17 and I'll let you know if I was accepted anywhere.

3) I think it would vary by the school, but I was able to register as a non-degree seeking student at my local 4-year state university. The application process was pretty easy too, compared to when I applied the first time around.

 

[tc434]

Also, one last question: when it comes to taking classes for pre-req, how does one go about this? Would I need to apply to university all over again, or am I just able to sign up as a non degree student?

I was in a situation similar to yours a number of years ago. I met with a counselor they had specifically for alumni and she helped me map out a plan for all the prerequisites in the most efficient timeline. I did not do any official program, just took all the required classes, took the dat and applied.
Maybe check your undergrad's website and see what resources they have for alumni and get in touch with them.
When I graduated undergrad I had a 2.8 gpa. When I took the pre reqs I got A's and B's and did well on the dat and got into dental school. Hope this helps.

 

[sobertiger]

Unless you go to UOP, the only school with a three-year program, it will take seven years total. Two years of prerequisites, one gap year, and four dental school years. It is too late to enroll for fall semester, so start spring and if you work hard you should be able to finish all the courses in time for the 2019-2020 cycle. You will start classes in summer of 2020 and will graduate in 2024. You would be 35. Not bad!

 

[CorpChangers2017]

I was in a situation similar to yours a number of years ago. I met with a counselor they had specifically for alumni and she helped me map out a plan for all the prerequisites in the most efficient timeline. I did not do any official program, just took all the required classes, took the dat and applied.
Maybe check your undergrad's website and see what resources they have for alumni and get in touch with them.
When I graduated undergrad I had a 2.8 gpa. When I took the pre reqs I got A's and B's and did well on the dat and got into dental school. Hope this helps.

I see. That is great to hear. I had not thought of that & will look into it.

You're welcome. Hope this helps:

1) No one commented on my GPA at the interviews that I've done so far, except to tell me how competitive it was (I ended up with a science GPA of ~3.75). Not sure I understand the rest of your question though. If my GPA decreases, I suppose dental schools could rescind an offer of admission. However, I have never heard of that happening and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

2) I only applied to 10 schools; I couldn't justify the extra $1500 to apply to 10 more. Ask me again on 12/1/17 and I'll let you know if I was accepted anywhere.

3) I think it would vary by the school, but I was able to register as a non-degree seeking student at my local 4-year state university. The application process was pretty easy too, compared to when I applied the first time around.

I see. As someone who expects to be similar to you (limited science background & will need to relearn how to study), how challenging did you find the pre req classes to be? I haven't taken physics since high school 11 years ago. :/

Unless you go to UOP, the only school with a three-year program, it will take seven years total. Two years of prerequisites, one gap year, and four dental school years. It is too late to enroll for fall semester, so start spring and if you work hard you should be able to finish all the courses in time for the 2019-2020 cycle. You will start classes in summer of 2020 and will graduate in 2024. You would be 35. Not bad!

That's true. 2024 graduation would have me at 34 going on 35. How hard is it to get into UOP as I believe they are among the more "life experience" heavy schools & would likely be among my top choices. Also, does one have to have a gap year? Cannot apply after 1 year?

32 going on 33 would be highly preferable.

Thanks to all for your advice!

 

[sobertiger]

That's true. 2024 graduation would have me at 34 going on 35. How hard is it to get into UOP as I believe they are among the more "life experience" heavy schools & would likely be among my top choices. Also, does one have to have a gap year? Cannot apply after 1 year?

32 going on 33 would be highly preferable.

The problem is, you're starting in spring so you would only have one semester (or two, including summer) under your belt when you apply, not a full year. That is probably not enough to apply with and you would have to have the DAT done as well. Not saying it's impossible but that is pretty tight.

As for UOP, all CA schools are very competitive and UOP is no exception. Last cycle, 2606 people applied and 142 enrolled. Given that UOP hands out interviews very carefully and over 95% of the interviewees are accepted, you're looking at around 5~10%. Also, a good chunk of the enrollees are from UOP's own accelerated program so that diminishes the odds even further.

 

[amariesa]

Have you considered the cost of going to dental school? Depending on your school, its 350k-550k debt for 4 years. If you make 50k a year now, thats 550k to 750k in difference for only schooling and missed work. If you take a couple of years to do the prereqs, then 4 years for dental school. You will be 35 years old, 650kish behind your current self if you just keep going currently. If you make 110k a year, 75k post tax, 25k for 6% interest on 400k loan, you live off 50k a year. Difference compared to the 50k you make now? You are 400k in debt and have to make principal payments off 50k a year post tax and interest.

 

[weaselodeath]

I see. That is great to hear. I had not thought of that & will look into it.



I see. As someone who expects to be similar to you (limited science background & will need to relearn how to study), how challenging did you find the pre req classes to be? I haven't taken physics since high school 11 years ago. :/



That's true. 2024 graduation would have me at 34 going on 35. How hard is it to get into UOP as I believe they are among the more "life experience" heavy schools & would likely be among my top choices. Also, does one have to have a gap year? Cannot apply after 1 year?

32 going on 33 would be highly preferable.

Thanks to all for your advice!

I want to speak up here as a person that is trying really hard NOT to take a gap year. I am 30 right now and will finish my prerequisites next semester. Hoping to start dental school Fall of 2018.

I had initially planned on a gap year to ensure a good test score and time to volunteer and shadow. I ended up taking my DAT earlier than planned after having taken Calc, statistics, bio 1 and 2, gen chem 1 and 2, and ochem 1. I studied passively for a month, then 9 hrs/day 6 days a week for 2 weeks and did well enough not to ever want to retake it.

It put me in an awkward place because I had procrastinated on shadowing and volunteering, so I got in the minimum amount and applied. I don't know for sure if it's worked out, but I have gotten some interviews so I'm at least seen as a viable candidate.

At our age, we don't want to screw around and waste our lives not progressing and schools will know that you feel that way. They can likely excuse you not having exactly the 'perfect package' as long as your recent GPA is pretty stellar and your test scores turn out well. The advantage you have is that you can show evidence from your current life that you are a mature, capable individual that is willing to do what it takes to get things done, and that should go a long way for you. Good luck, brother!

 

[sobertiger]

I had initially planned on a gap year to ensure a good test score and time to volunteer and shadow. I ended up taking my DAT earlier than planned after having taken Calc, statistics, bio 1 and 2, gen chem 1 and 2, and ochem 1. I studied passively for a month, then 9 hrs/day 6 days a week for 2 weeks and did well enough not to ever want to retake it.

The OP cannot take that many classes by next cycle because he is starting next spring.

 

[weaselodeath]

The OP cannot take that many classes by next cycle because he is starting next spring.

Yeah that's right. Sorry OP!

 

[Ranger_Danger]

I see. As someone who expects to be similar to you (limited science background & will need to relearn how to study), how challenging did you find the pre req classes to be? I haven't taken physics since high school 11 years ago. :/

Not going to sugar coat it, they were challenging, but it's definitely possible to do well. Sit in the front row, befriend the smart kids and study with them, go to instructors' office hours, ask questions, do your homework and make lots of jokes about being "that old guy." The upside is that I was way more focused this time around. Once you remove the social aspects of college (i.e. parties), it's amazing how much time you have to study. If you want me to elaborate more about the transition back to the classroom, feel free to PM me.

 

[Ranger_Danger]

At our age, we don't want to screw around and waste our lives not progressing and schools will know that you feel that way.

Wait a tick, I thought 30 was the new 20?

 

[weaselodeath]

Wait a tick, I thought 30 was the new 20?

That sounds right to me! I just want to have kids before I get super old, and every year that I am not making professional progress is a possible delay to my personal goals. I think a 20 year old could have said that in pretty much every portion of history but this one.

 

[CorpChangers2017]

I would like to thank everybody for their advice thus far. I have tentatively decided to pursue this career path & the advice given en so far has been extremely helpful. Any further advice would be awesome!

1. I am preparing a personal review schedule while I continue working for the science prereqs that I anticipate being the most difficult. I do not anticipate beginning classes until this summer as a non-degree student. However, in the meantime, I will use my free time to become familiar with the concepts that will be covered later in these courses. There are dozens of "physics 1", chemistry 1, bio 1", etc college syllabus on-line & I will just buy the text books & self teach so that by the time the actual class begins, I am not so new. Any advice or tips for this approach, i.e. good textbooks or syllabus (or video lecture) that anyone one knows of would be appreciated!

2. How does one convey maturity respectively outside of the interview? As I begin to approach pre-dental advisors and dental school admissions officers, all impressions count & I just want to ensure the right approach. I have a very upbeat, outgoing, but calm & even demeanor which usually gives the right impression to the professionals I currently work with, but just to be sure. Some talking points I imagine would be useful:

- Owned my own successful, growing business for 3 years after graduation. Took 1 day off in first 2 1/2 years. 0% turnover, solid sales growth. Loved working with people, developing the team that worked for me professionally and personally when applicable. This is really where I discovered how much I enjoy helping people improve & teams accomplish things together; in another life I would pursue a leadership type of position here, however (as I not mention in an interview), I have witnessed firsthand how unpredictable & ruthless the business world can be and in this regard, I just do not think it is for me outside of extremely reliable ventures Ala healthcare. After all the work, I am looking for something more stable.

- While owning my business, I volunteered with local homeless kids for 2 years which I enjoyed immensely. This was actually the only scheduled break I had during this time working long hours, but I thought I used it wisely. In year 2, my group (myself and 3 others) was given a system-wide award as the most effective group as far improving the children's behavior, school performance, etc (out of a few hundred groups). This is not science related, but clearly I was community oriented well before dental school was ever on my radar.

- Essentially due to word of mouth of others I had helped & my own performance, I was approached by the parent corporation to begin assisting others in the same role as myself. I have done this for just over 2 years and generally have been successful. I have received glowing reviews and maximum increases each year. I am essentially the preferred and most requested individual among clients and have been able to develop several highly impactful programs which lead to systematic improvement and revenue growth.

Of course, these have nothing to do with the science end of being a dentist. But the business & people oriented side of the business I suspect will come very easy to me. The "soft skills" of being a good applicant & successful dentist are pretty strong for myself, I would objectively say.

3. Realistic salary expectations. New and experienced dentists salary ranges widely from my research. "General dentists" with 5 years of experience have job postings with salaries of $300,000 on dentaltown in the area I currently live. I don't need $200k in year one, but as Amariesa noted, it may work out to where I am taking home essentially a bit less than I am currently paired with massive debt. Of course, the long term security and income potential is still massive. But I am not looking to be 33-35 years old living off of $50k take home.

I know there are many variables here such as location, specialty, etc. But in general, for a high academically performing & well interviewed candidate willing too move anywhere, is $150kish entry realistic? Especially given this will be 5-6 years away.

All advice is appreciated!

 

[SoftGel]

Do it. I am 34 and in my first year of taking science pre-reqs. I graduated polsci in 2006. It will be worth it in the long run.