Sensitive question for MS3s and MS4s: Do you hate some of your classmates?

[gatorsbruh]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

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[mega_]

If you have an issue, raised it diplomatically with a particular person, seething quietly won't help you or your classmates.

 

[sharkbyte]

Eh, not really. There are some people in my class that I don't care for much, and there are some on the lazy side who always find a way to do the minimum work, ditch mandatory things and make excuses to get off rotations early (ex. "I have X meeting in the afternoon") but I don't really feel contempt toward those people, it's more so wondering why they even decided to go to medical school in the first place.

 

[MerYangBey]

I would rather work with the lazier person than the one judging everyone else around them.

 

[radsisrad]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

Based on your post, I'd hazard a guess that, in fact, you're the one everybody "hates."

 

[slowthai]

This post totally backfired. Who am I kidding, it was doomed from the start, lol.

Oh, for M3/M4s only? Sorry, I was too lazy to read the title.

Just...go ahead and put me on ignore loooool

 

[Mass Effect]

Usually, when you have "hate" toward someone else for something like this, it's a problem on your end.

 

[eyejust]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

You seem like the kind of person I would avoid.

 

[efle]

Bro, I guarantee you were also essentially useless as a MS3, unless you think staying late to do scut work makes you a highly valuable asset to the team.

 

[pillowsnice]

Those “lazy” people were probably the smart ones as they realized the bs that surrounded being on a third year rotation.

 

[YouEverHadOurSausages?]

Keep in mind that if everyone was as hardworking as you, you probably wouldn’t have gotten that surgical residency. For the most part, you have to be relatively hardworking to get into and make it through med school, but there are different levels to this. Not everyone has to bust their ass every second of every day. Those who do will typically make it further in their career.

 

[sanfran256]

I sometimes made up "meetings" but it was always at a respectable time, >3:30 , after I had been sitting around doing nothing for a while. No regrets, didn't affect my evals (most of the time the resident had just forgot about me at this time)

 

[catmario]

2) I'm a perfectionist;

Demanding others to demonstrate the same "busting ass" attitude towards work when it may not even be necessary from their position, feeling contempt for those who don't, and posting hate posts about it on a forum is not being a perfectionist. That is called, being unreasonable.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The people who draw my ire are those who ask stupid questions after sign out and goad the resident into giving us an impromptu 30 min lecture in an effort to suck up.

Not everyone wants to be a surgeon, and honestly if I were in their shoes and FMFL (family med for life) then I wouldn't be too thrilled about getting up at 430 and staying at the hospital until 7 either...

 

[PugsAndHugs]

It depends on perspective. I worked my ass off on my IM rotation, but I was extremely “lazy” on my Peds rotation because I was completely uninterested and knew this does not apply to my career goals. I obviously did what I was told on my Peds rotation but did I try to leave early every chance I got? Absolutely.

 

[bananafish94]

$10 says this guy brings in journal articles to rounds unprompted

 

[efle]

$10 says this guy brings in journal articles to rounds unprompted

Bro our IM grading literally gives you points for this

They rate you on the RIME scale which stands for Report, Interpret, Manage, Educate. Average grade given is M and getting an E is a big push to get you into Honors territory

So the people I was on IM with literally brought in articles to discuss and would even launch into 10 minute subject reviews during their presentation. I could never bring myself to do it, it just felt so fake and cringey tryhard. It was our very first clerkship and we had no idea how to even be useful to our residents yet, yet were being graded on our effort to teach them. Just yucky imho.

 

[bananafish94]

Bro our IM grading literally gives you points for this

They rate you on the RIME scale which stands for Report, Interpret, Manage, Educate. Average grade given is M and getting an E is a big push to get you into Honors territory

So the people I was on IM with literally brought in articles to discuss and would even launch into 10 minute subject reviews during their presentation. I could never bring myself to do it, it just felt so fake and cringey tryhard. It was our very first clerkship and we had no idea how to even be useful to our residents yet, yet were being graded on our effort to teach them. Just yucky imho.

I would've done the same as you. I did very well in 3rd and 4th year rotations and always followed two simple rules: 1) Don't decompensate, 2) Be good to everyone. Bringing in a paper to rounds would make all the students look worse and bore the residents and attending to tears - stark violation of the rules. Maya Angelou said it best: "People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Bro our IM grading literally gives you points for this

They rate you on the RIME scale which stands for Report, Interpret, Manage, Educate. Average grade given is M and getting an E is a big push to get you into Honors territory

So the people I was on IM with literally brought in articles to discuss and would even launch into 10 minute subject reviews during their presentation. I could never bring myself to do it, it just felt so fake and cringey tryhard. It was our very first clerkship and we had no idea how to even be useful to our residents yet, yet were being graded on our effort to teach them. Just yucky imho.

This is fairly silly because the true expectation of a medical student is-at best- to interpret data. They don't even really have access to the Manage portion (unless they're a sub-I with a patient panel). Seems like a bad grading motif for deciding who gets p/hp/h.

 

[efle]

This is fairly silly because the true expectation of a medical student is-at best- to interpret data. They don't even really have access to the Manage portion (unless they're a sub-I with a patient panel). Seems like a bad grading motif for deciding who gets p/hp/h.

Yeah, the hilarious thing is that RIME was originally designed to track the development of residents. Incoming interns are expected to be Reporters and graduating seniors are supposed to be good Manager/beginner Educators.

But, in their infinite wisdom, our Medicine clerkship director decided to adapt it to us medical students and give us a point value for how annoying we're willing to be about bringing up Pubmed articles on rounds.

You can probably sense my disdain and frustration. I was well above average on the shelf and had good evals, but got Manager --> High Pass. It was a fitting introduction to the world of clerkship grading lol

 

[Newyawk]

ahhh... the classic surgical "bruh". hes a bruh until you realize he isnt.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

The only people I disliked were you.

 

[mmchick]

This has probably been said enough already, but dude, learning to work in a multifaceted environment understanding that people each do things in their own ways is like interpersonal skills 101. Doesn't matter what field you're in, everyone does things their own ways that work for them.

Being a perfectionist that expects other people to do things the way you'd have them is the case of being a pathological perfectionist that can actually be detrimental to a team, especially if you're considered to be in a more leadership-type position. Ease up. Your future teams will hate you (if the current ones don't already) and micro-management/passive-aggressiveness from expecting others to be carbon copies of yourself is a total self-sabotage and horrible for work efficacy.

Take some CBD or something. Go do some yoga and meditation.

 

[Medic741]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

Honestly sounds like going into counseling could really help you develop some better coping strategies and could make the next few decades easier...

 

[ciestar]

Hate? Absolutely not.

That said, i have no relationships with any of my classmates but i hold no ill-will or anything like you’ve described toward them.

I do get annoyed if people don’t pull their own weight though.

 

[deleted407021]

Glad I’m going peds

 

[deleted936470]

Seek someone to talk about this with, this is a brewing problem that will only continue to exhaust you.
Hatred toward anyone for perceived deficits or differences in cultural upbringing are problems that need fixed.

 

[hallowmann]

*Single digit posts with a 2 yr old account
**Obvious extreme/controversial viewpoint
***Disappears after the first post...

Well played OP, well played

 

[kb1900]

Yeah, the hilarious thing is that RIME was originally designed to track the development of residents. Incoming interns are expected to be Reporters and graduating seniors are supposed to be good Manager/beginner Educators.

But, in their infinite wisdom, our Medicine clerkship director decided to adapt it to us medical students and give us a point value for how annoying we're willing to be about bringing up Pubmed articles on rounds.

You can probably sense my disdain and frustration. I was well above average on the shelf and had good evals, but got Manager --> High Pass. It was a fitting introduction to the world of clerkship grading lol

My school has this nonsense on IM as well. But residents also are graded on RIME.

Weirdly I got M/E by every attending (including PD) but got R-M by every intern and resident because obviously “how can a med student have a better grade than a PGY2”. Our attendings gave us topics, presentation and a cap of 5 minutes to avoid the entire waste everyone’s times on rounds thjng - but of course my senior resident still did that every day with completely bogus papers

so of course even though I “honored” I have this awkwardly low RIME score of interpreter on my MSPE

 

[efle]

My school has this nonsense on IM as well. But residents also are graded on RIME.

Weirdly I got M/E by every attending (including PD) but got R-M by every intern and resident because obviously “how can a med student have a better grade than a PGY2”. Our attendings gave us topics, presentation and a cap of 5 minutes to avoid the entire waste everyone’s times on rounds thjng - but of course my senior resident still did that every day with completely bogus papers

so of course even though I “honored” I have this awkwardly low RIME score of interpreter on my MSPE

That's awesome.

This is an Honors recipient, the best kind of student we've got! Behold, he's an interpreter!

 

[Goro]

*Single digit posts with a 2 yr old account
**Obvious extreme/controversial viewpoint
***Disappears after the first post...

Well played OP, well played

Yup, smells of sockpuppet.

 

[Dr. Death]

It's the complaining that gets to me. Like do you have to tell me how miserable you are and how much you hate this class, assignment, rotation, resident, food, attending, schedule . . . With some people it never stops.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

I try not to hate anyone, but people like you come close.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They rate you on the RIME scale which stands for Report, Interpret, Manage, Educate. Average grade given is M and getting an E is a big push to get you into Honors territory

Bro. The guy who is our curriculum director and the clerkship director for IM is the guy who invented the RIME scale.

 

[efle]

Bro. The guy who is our curriculum director and the clerkship director for IM is the guy who invented the RIME scale.

Does he make the med students try to Educate the resident teams as part of your grade though? That's where I take issue.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Does he make the med students try to Educate the resident teams as part of your grade though? That's where I take issue.

That is what an educator is per the RIME scheme. But no, in our grade sheets, it doesn’t list that as a requirement for educator, nor is that required for honors. It’s also nice that we have specific cutoffs for honors and if the whole class gets above it, then everyone gets honors.

 

[efle]

That is what an educator is per the RIME scheme. But no, in our grade sheets, it doesn’t list that as a requirement for educator, nor is that required for honors. It’s also nice that we have specific cutoffs for honors and if the whole class gets above it, then everyone gets honors.

Man, that would be nice. Our grades are assigned by z-score and they treat Interpret as z = -1, Manager as z = 0 (median) and Educator as z = +1. And they weight it the same as the shelf exam.

So, as you can imagine, HUGE determining factor for Honors.

I can feel my blood pressure rising just describing it

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Man, that would be nice. Our grades are assigned by z-score and they treat Interpret as z = -1, Manager as z = 0 (median) and Educator as z = +1. And they weight it the same as the shelf exam.

So, as you can imagine, HUGE determining factor for Honors.

I can feel my blood pressure rising just describing it

Weird. Our clinical grade is 70% of the grade with the shelf being 30%. But the second half of the rotation is weighted more than the first because they assume it will take a few weeks to get up to speed, and our resident that we are assigned to is weighted more than the intern or any of the attendings.

 

[Lawpy]

Man, that would be nice. Our grades are assigned by z-score and they treat Interpret as z = -1, Manager as z = 0 (median) and Educator as z = +1. And they weight it the same as the shelf exam.

So, as you can imagine, HUGE determining factor for Honors.

I can feel my blood pressure rising just describing it

wait so is Report z = -2 and a Fail?

 

[efle]

I don't think they give anyone R. But whether your eval mentions teaching/education is worth +35 percentile points on your shelf compared to an eval mentioning only your efforts towards patient care.

And god forbid you have an attending/resident that gives nonspecific eval comments about team player, works hard, knowledgable, etc because then you'll get Interpreter, and be at a -70 percentile disadvantage compared to your competition when you walk into your shelf exam. Good luck overcoming that.

I guess they feel like their famous teaching hospital ought to identify the best future professors, but what that translates to in reality is finding out who is willing to delay rounds another 20 minutes with a Pubmed article or uptodate algorithm that they found in 30 seconds last night.

 

[letsgetstarted1234]

t

I don't think they give anyone R. But whether your eval mentions teaching/education is worth +35 percentile points on your shelf compared to an eval mentioning only your efforts towards patient care.

And god forbid you have an attending/resident that gives nonspecific eval comments about team player, works hard, knowledgable, etc because then you'll get Interpreter, and be at a -70 percentile disadvantage compared to your competition when you walk into your shelf exam. Good luck overcoming that.

I guess they feel like their famous teaching hospital ought to identify the best future professors, but what that translates to in reality is finding out who is willing to delay rounds another 20 minutes with a Pubmed article or uptodate algorithm that they found in 30 seconds last night.

that system sound so tryhard and thereby stressful. I feel like i'd have to be someone else, and still not end up doing well LOL. how are 3 second cursory glance med students supposed to educate clinicians/PIs/residents? I guess there is a lot of new literature all the time but damn

 

[Neopolymath]

t

that system sound so tryhard and thereby stressful. I feel like i'd have to be someone else, and still not end up doing well LOL. how are 3 second cursory glance med students supposed to educate clinicians/PIs/residents? I guess there is a lot of new literature all the time but damn

Can confirm that it is as stupid as it sounds and it makes you get off into the weeds even more than dumb as hell IM rounds are in the first place. I got an E but it was like taking a piece of my soul and I told my residents that came on the service my second week what was going on and apologized in advance for how annoying it would be for them. Earned a lot of respect acknowledging it and the rest of the rotation paid dividends. Just goes to show you that being likable and thoughtful are far more important than anything 3rd year.

 

[efle]

Can confirm that it is as stupid as it sounds and it makes you get off into the weeds even more than dumb as hell IM rounds are in the first place. I got an E but it was like taking a piece of my soul and I told my residents that came on the service my second week what was going on and apologized in advance for annoying it would be for them. Earned a lot of respect acknowledging it and the rest of the rotation paid dividends. Just goes to show you that being likable and thoughtful are far more important than anything 3rd year.

I should add as a caveat that discussing the grading schema whatsoever with our team was considered an academic conduct/honesty violation, lol. Big regret that I believed that, since I later learned many of my Honors friends "cheated," some more explicitly than others (e.g. letting your new resident know that while 3/5 says "performing at level" it translates to a Fail and that the average grade is a 4.5/5). Undue influence on one's grade? I dunno, it probably would raise a stink if the clerkship directors found out you were insulating yourself like that, but since it isn't explicitly asking for 5s, I kinda wish I'd done that kind of thing too in hindsight.

 

[Neopolymath]

I should add as a caveat that discussing the grading schema whatsoever with our team was considered an academic conduct/honesty violation, lol. Big regret that I believed that, since I later learned many of my Honors friends "cheated," some more explicitly than others (e.g. letting your new resident know that while 3/5 says "performing at level" it translates to a Fail and that the average grade is a 4.5/5). Undue influence on one's grade? I dunno, it probably would raise a stink if the clerkship directors found out you were insulating yourself like that, but since it isn't explicitly asking for 5s, I kinda wish I'd done that kind of thing too in hindsight.

That's terribly stupid of your school. I genuinely think half the people giving "bad" grades in this clerkship grading arms race are doing so because they are either too busy or too ignorant to understand what the grading criteria is and what it means. The other half are just ****ty people.

Also it sets expectations for feedback when you tell them your goal is honors. The worst thing in the world for this topic is someone telling a student they are doing "great" but actually meaning the student is doing great compared to ****ty students and is a lock for average grades. It happens all the time apparently.

 

[Oedipa Maas]

I should add as a caveat that discussing the grading schema whatsoever with our team was considered an academic conduct/honesty violation, lol. Big regret that I believed that, since I later learned many of my Honors friends "cheated," some more explicitly than others (e.g. letting your new resident know that while 3/5 says "performing at level" it translates to a Fail and that the average grade is a 4.5/5). Undue influence on one's grade? I dunno, it probably would raise a stink if the clerkship directors found out you were insulating yourself like that, but since it isn't explicitly asking for 5s, I kinda wish I'd done that kind of thing too in hindsight.

Wow...I mean I know as an incoming intern my institution may not give that much weight to the grade or comments that I give students, but I was definitely planning to ask students how they are graded. That seems really wrong to me that students would be penalized for telling their preceptors HOW they are graded. I don't know that, how am I supposed to grade them? I was also planning to do "exit interviews", which is something some of the senior residents I worked with did for me as a student. They mainly kept it focused on feedback and what I learned and did well but I would want to throw in a "what are some things you would like for me to point out in your evaluation?" question and I don't think that's "wrong" but I'm sure your school would.

 

[efle]

That's terribly stupid of your school. I genuinely think half the people giving "bad" grades in this clerkship grading arms race are doing so because they are either too busy or too ignorant to understand what the grading criteria is and what it means. The other half are just ****ty people.

Yup. I've caught one 3-bomb so far (different clerkship that I still Honored) and it was clear that the resident did not even remember who I was. Generic comment about teamwork, submitted within a few minutes of the midnight grading deadline, straight 3s across every single criteria including ones she had complimented me on during the service.

And you know what? With how hard they worked her I can't even be mad. I'd probably forget a lot more than which med student was which in her shoes.

 

[efle]

Wow...I mean I know as an incoming intern my institution may not give that much weight to the grade or comments that I give students, but I was definitely planning to ask students how they are graded. That seems really wrong to me that students would be penalized for telling their preceptors HOW they are graded. I don't know that, how am I supposed to grade them? I was also planning to do "exit interviews", which is something some of the senior residents I worked with did for me as a student. They mainly kept it focused on feedback and what I learned and did well but I would want to throw in a "what are some things you would like for me to point out in your evaluation?" question and I don't think that's "wrong" but I'm sure your school would.

We've done the exit feedback system a bunch too and I actually do like that a lot. But yeah, for the survey you are supposed to click through, you definitely aren't supposed to be aware that all the descriptions are wildly inaccurate. Like, surely it's universal that a 3/5 is described as "performing at level" but factors into your grade as a Low Pass or worse.

 

[Neopolymath]

Yup. I've caught one 3-bomb so far (different clerkship that I still Honored) and it was clear that the resident did not even remember who I was. Generic comment about teamwork, submitted within a few minutes of the midnight grading deadline, straight 3s across every single criteria including ones she had complimented me on during the service.

And you know what? With how hard they worked her I can't even be mad. I'd probably forget a lot more than which med student was which in her shoes.

Got my first one on the last rotation before COVID Crisis 2020. I feel incredibly lucky it has only happened once and essentially I'm going to end my 3rd year with P/F evals for the online stuff (a whole separate thread of issues there) and then hopefully some audition evals that matter then 4th year grades that don't matter. Basically I'm taking a few shelves and then I'm done with this grading game forever baby. It's kinda weird knowing that a virus gave me the gift of only have grades that count in the specialty I actually give a damn about for the rest of school. Pretty dope.

 

[JaneAustenFan]

Now that I am a graduating MS4 who has worked with a multitude of classmates and other healthcare workers on clinical rotations, I have definitely developed a jaded attitude. Basically, I have nothing but contempt and impatience for lazy classmates/hospital staff. I don't express this outwardly, but is seethes under my skin every time I have to be around someone like this. In my head I often find myself thinking, "why are you even going to be a doctor if you are this lazy?" or "how can you have so little self respect that you actually think it is appropriate to be this useless to our team?"

I only feel this way about a minority of people I work with, but it really gets under my skin. I recognize that some of the reasons I think like this are: 1) I was raised by an immigrant workaholic family that never ever complained, so that attitude is ingrained in me; 2) I'm a perfectionist; 3) I busted my ass all-out on multiple away rotations to match into a surgical field, so I am used to a high workload and high expectations (and I admit I fit a stereotype here about surgeons).

Anyone feel the same or have comments?

There are a few who I thought of as more obnoxious; it was just amplified in rotation. Actually, more often than not, I actually wish I got to know some of them earlier.

 

[Modstopizdy]

ahhh... the classic surgical "bruh". hes a bruh until you realize he isnt.

I think you're giving him too much credit, I bet this guy screams "chode" from a mile away.