Seperation Strategies for a SigO

[West Side]

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Hey folks,

First, I'd like to thank all of you who've put in the time and energy to catalogue your grievances, candid opinions, and positive thoughts on the HPSP. For the uninitiated, it has been tremendously valuable and illuminating.

My fiance is an HPSP participant (it's a farce to call her a "recipient", like she won some sort of prize). Throughout, the Air Force has been sort of an amorphous presence in our lives: she'd go on internships for a month in some godforsaken part of the country, but otherwise, relatively painless.

She came home a few days ago, however, tearfully informing me that despite being in the top few of her class, tremendous board scores, and stellar recommendations from co-workers, that she'd not gotten a deferral, thereby meaning we face a geographic crossroads.

As some background, I'm in the private sector in a non-medical field. I do very well for myself, and would peg my earning power to be far superior to hers, even if she wasn't tied to the military. My career has been carefully planned thus far, and is somewhat geographically dependant, meaning I can't just up and move with her.

It appears that the military isn't interested in a buy-out. It stuns me that they would be willing to accept people in their employ that would rather consider self-inflicted bodily harm than complete their contract. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm interested in ways to seperate her. Like I said, I'm willing to pay them back for expenses, but given her stories of being lied to during the recruitment process (and the scores of stories on these very boards), I'm willing to play dirty.

We've already ruled out lesbianism; we'd like to lie as little as possible, if at all. And while I'd prefer to avoid a dishonorable discharge, we're not above it. Are there any well-known (or less well known) ways to seperate? Pregnancy?

I appreciate all of your continued help, and hopefully, you have some insight for a military outsider.

And please spare me the "she should honor her commitment". Honor is bilateral. When the military starts to "honorably" represent the program they're enlisting people in, then find me a seat on the bandwagon. Until then, the gloves are off.

 

[Galo]

Hey folks,

First, I'd like to thank all of you who've put in the time and energy to catalogue your grievances, candid opinions, and positive thoughts on the HPSP. For the uninitiated, it has been tremendously valuable and illuminating.

My fiance is an HPSP participant (it's a farce to call her a "recipient", like she won some sort of prize). Throughout, the Air Force has been sort of an amorphous presence in our lives: she'd go on internships for a month in some godforsaken part of the country, but otherwise, relatively painless.

She came home a few days ago, however, tearfully informing me that despite being in the top few of her class, tremendous board scores, and stellar recommendations from co-workers, that she'd not gotten a deferral, thereby meaning we face a geographic crossroads.

As some background, I'm in the private sector in a non-medical field. I do very well for myself, and would peg my earning power to be far superior to hers, even if she wasn't tied to the military. My career has been carefully planned thus far, and is somewhat geographically dependant, meaning I can't just up and move with her.

It appears that the military isn't interested in a buy-out. It stuns me that they would be willing to accept people in their employ that would rather consider self-inflicted bodily harm than complete their contract. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm interested in ways to seperate her. Like I said, I'm willing to pay them back for expenses, but given her stories of being lied to during the recruitment process (and the scores of stories on these very boards), I'm willing to play dirty.

We've already ruled out lesbianism; we'd like to lie as little as possible, if at all. And while I'd prefer to avoid a dishonorable discharge, we're not above it. Are there any well-known (or less well known) ways to seperate? Pregnancy?

I appreciate all of your continued help, and hopefully, you have some insight for a military outsider.

And please spare me the "she should honor her commitment". Honor is bilateral. When the military starts to "honorably" represent the program they're enlisting people in, then find me a seat on the bandwagon. Until then, the gloves are off.

Wow,

I really feel for you guys, as I know exactly what she is going through, and I am very sorry to tell you it will only get worse. Yes, you'll get the "honor what you signed" from some, and I myself have thrown it. However, when you are in a position that you feel like the walls are closing in, like there is a two ton pressure on your chest, like if you walk inside the building you get heartburn, that you think of hurting people, then its not healthy for anybody. Unfortunately I have experienced all those feelings, and more, at the hands of the joke that is military medicine, today. Alot can depend on your expectations, and having this forum is a mixed blessing, since you learn exactly how bad it can be, but also you can learn what to expect, and adjust accordingly. With the state of CME in military today, it does not shock me one bit she did not get defered. THIS is what prospective students need to realize along with the potentially inferior training, as well as not getting to do what your residency of choice.

As for getting out, buying out is 100% out. Unfortunately, pregnancy will only keep her from being deployed, and how many times is she going to do that? There is no "honorable way" out. It will have to be something that may follow her for the rest of her life, and though you think you want out that bad, when it comes down to committing to something like that, you may not be able to do it.

What you may have to come to terms with is that she will move for a residency, and then will move again for an assigment, and try to plan accordingly.

I truly am sorry I cannot give you a better answer, but I just do not think there are any. Do you think the goverment gives two sh*ts about whether or not they are honoring what they advertise? Fuggetaboutit. Its a loosing situation, and yet they continue to rope in UNINFORMED bodies into a system that will make a majority of them potentially seriously unhappy. I wish you guys the best. I'm sure others will chime in, and lets see what they say.

 

[militarymd]

I feel for you..........BUT, she's a big girl...she signed a contract....she NEEDS to honor it.....PERIOD.

Tough sh i t that SHE is not happy...tough shi t that YOU aren't happy.....it's not about HER or YOU....it's about all the people who need to be taken care of .....it 's about the folks who are losing their arms and legs defending our sorry asses who aren't in the military (anymore).

I've been here since dec of 2003 telling people not to sign up..but I'll also be the very first person to tell you that, once you sign, they own you, and you are responsible for your OATH.

Hate to use a cliche....but 2 wrongs DON'T make a right.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Hey folks,

First, I'd like to thank all of you who've put in the time and energy to catalogue your grievances, candid opinions, and positive thoughts on the HPSP. For the uninitiated, it has been tremendously valuable and illuminating.

My fiance is an HPSP participant (it's a farce to call her a "recipient", like she won some sort of prize). Throughout, the Air Force has been sort of an amorphous presence in our lives: she'd go on internships for a month in some godforsaken part of the country, but otherwise, relatively painless.

She came home a few days ago, however, tearfully informing me that despite being in the top few of her class, tremendous board scores, and stellar recommendations from co-workers, that she'd not gotten a deferral, thereby meaning we face a geographic crossroads.

As some background, I'm in the private sector in a non-medical field. I do very well for myself, and would peg my earning power to be far superior to hers, even if she wasn't tied to the military. My career has been carefully planned thus far, and is somewhat geographically dependant, meaning I can't just up and move with her.

It appears that the military isn't interested in a buy-out. It stuns me that they would be willing to accept people in their employ that would rather consider self-inflicted bodily harm than complete their contract. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm interested in ways to seperate her. Like I said, I'm willing to pay them back for expenses, but given her stories of being lied to during the recruitment process (and the scores of stories on these very boards), I'm willing to play dirty.

We've already ruled out lesbianism; we'd like to lie as little as possible, if at all. And while I'd prefer to avoid a dishonorable discharge, we're not above it. Are there any well-known (or less well known) ways to seperate? Pregnancy?

I appreciate all of your continued help, and hopefully, you have some insight for a military outsider.

And please spare me the "she should honor her commitment". Honor is bilateral. When the military starts to "honorably" represent the program they're enlisting people in, then find me a seat on the bandwagon. Until then, the gloves are off.

Not to dismiss your concern, but unless you are married or are representing her as her counsel, I'm not certain what exactly you mean when you say you are interested in separating her. She has a contract with the U.S. Government.

Doing anything that will result in her discharge on any terms other than honorable would be a mistake that she would regret the rest of her professional life. It will come back to bite, and hard, and repeatedly. Do nothing that would result in that if you have any regard for her welfare.

If she is truly as accomplished a student as you say, it would be compounding her problem to do anything that would make her appear duplicitous, dishonest or psychologically unstable. That will affect her applications to residencies regardless when she is permitted to start and it will also affect her applications for licensure and for work after.

If you have any evidence of fraud or misrepresentation on the part of recruiters or the government regarding her recruitment to HPSP, then I suggest you hire a lawyer. Take your issues and your evidence to someone qualified to represent her interests in a professional capacity. If you have the resources you suggest, that should be manageable. This is not something you should presume to do yourself, and I hope you are smart enough to realize that.

Wanting to "play dirty" may sound satisfying in the abstract, but she would not be the first to try, nor probably the first to fail with negative consequences. She would be better off to fight smart.

 

[pgg]

First, sorry to hear she didn't get the deferral. What specialty is she going into? What internship at which military hospital did she get assigned to?

I'm not surprised that the Air Force passed on the deferral; naturally they want the highest quality graduates to train (and serve) at military facilities.

She came home a few days ago, however, tearfully informing me that despite being in the top few of her class, tremendous board scores, and stellar recommendations from co-workers, that she'd not gotten a deferral

OK ... don't take this question in an accusatory way ... but the military match results were out almost a month ago. How is it that she's just finding out now that she wasn't deferred?

I'm interested in ways to seperate her. Like I said, I'm willing to pay them back for expenses,

Well, the military doesn't want the money ... they want the doctor's services. Your chance of buying out the military is exactly zero.

but given her stories of being lied to during the recruitment process (and the scores of stories on these very boards), I'm willing to play dirty.

We've already ruled out lesbianism; we'd like to lie as little as possible, if at all. And while I'd prefer to avoid a dishonorable discharge, we're not above it. Are there any well-known (or less well known) ways to seperate? Pregnancy?

It's pathetic and contemptible that you would even consider having a child simply to weasel out of a contract.

I appreciate all of your continued help, and hopefully, you have some insight for a military outsider.

And please spare me the "she should honor her commitment". Honor is bilateral. When the military starts to "honorably" represent the program they're enlisting people in, then find me a seat on the bandwagon. Until then, the gloves are off.

I can appreciate your frustration and disappointment; the military is well known for putting its needs far ahead of the desires of its members.

But she should honor her commitment. She was not entitled to a deferment, despite her academic record.

Look, problems with military medicine aside (and there are plenty), she signed up and accepted the Air Force's money with the understanding that after medical school she would go on active duty. There's plenty of room for recruiters to lie or be ignorant about HPSP ... but somehow I just don't believe that "nudge-nudge you won't really have to go on active duty after med school wink" would fool anybody. She had to understand that being on active duty was part of her post med school future, and that sometimes entails moving to where the military needs you.

Go ahead, take the gloves off and fight, if it makes you feel better. You'll still lose, and you'll look like immature children, but it's up to you.

There are plenty of reasons to be apprehensive, disappointed, or dissatisfied with the orders she got ... but trying to lie or cheat your way out of duty is pathetic. (Seriously, pregnancy ... are you kidding me?)

 

[backrow]

As some background, I'm in the private sector in a non-medical field. I do very well for myself, and would peg my earning power to be far superior to hers, even if she wasn't tied to the military. My career has been carefully planned thus far, and is somewhat geographically dependant, meaning I can't just up and move with her.

Male Prostitute? 😀 Only legal in Nevada 😀

 

[delicatefade]

😀


/the sound of popcorn popping

 

[g293]

Do you mind saying what city/area your job is in? Is there an AF base nearby?

It may be best for her to do an intern year, then get started on her payback by becoming a GMO or Flight surgeon. That will certainly get her out as fast as possible.

I think it sucks, but that is one of the big risks of HPSP/USU--you lose total control over your future. I hope people thinking about the scholarship really look at this--the $$ is great until the military decides what they want for you doesn't match up to your personal plan.

did she get her specialty of choice only a military residency instead of deferred, or did she get an intern year only??

 

[West Side]

Respondents,

Thanks to those who took the question in the spirit with which it was intended.

One of the posters was absolutely correct in asserting that having a child for the sole purpose of invalidating a contract would be pretty reprehensible indeed. No quarrel there. However, if you're planning to have a kid in the next few years, and it would have conveniently staved off a few years of active duty, it would make me feel a hell of a lot better about the three year residency.

Which is what she got. However, we live in a city with no AF base with a training hospital, it's not like a transfer to another base solves anything, as one poster seemed to be driving at. I'd rather not divulge where we are, geographically. For a leviathan faceless organization, the military apparently seems to have quite a bitchy thirst for retribution! 🙂 Suffice to say, she got her specialty, but in a far-less-than optimal location.

I think most of my frustration grows from the way THE REST OF THE WORLD works. That is, work hard, be talented, and you can write your own ticket. It appears to be the exact opposite in this bizarro microcosm.

Finally, perhaps someone can illuminate me on exactly how a less than honorable discharge would affect her employability. It's often been told to me that it's similar to a felony; implicit in that is that a LTH discharge is not EXACTLY like a felony. I know many applications ask if you've ever been convicted of a felony, which an AWOLer could truthfully answer "no". I'm genuinely curious, if anyone can shed a little light on military law.

Again, thanks for filling in the white spaces, a lot of my anger and frustration arises from an inability to get some answers I have any confidence in.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Respondents,

Thanks to those who took the question in the spirit with which it was intended.

One of the posters was absolutely correct in asserting that having a child for the sole purpose of invalidating a contract would be pretty reprehensible indeed. No quarrel there. However, if you're planning to have a kid in the next few years, and it would have conveniently staved off a few years of active duty, it would make me feel a hell of a lot better about the three year residency.

Which is what she got. However, we live in a city with no AF base with a training hospital, it's not like a transfer to another base solves anything, as one poster seemed to be driving at. I'd rather not divulge where we are, geographically. For a leviathan faceless organization, the military apparently seems to have quite a bitchy thirst for retribution! 🙂 Suffice to say, she got her specialty, but in a far-less-than optimal location.

I think most of my frustration grows from the way THE REST OF THE WORLD works. That is, work hard, be talented, and you can write your own ticket. It appears to be the exact opposite in this bizarro microcosm.

Finally, perhaps someone can illuminate me on exactly how a less than honorable discharge would affect her employability. It's often been told to me that it's similar to a felony; implicit in that is that a LTH discharge is not EXACTLY like a felony. I know many applications ask if you've ever been convicted of a felony, which an AWOLer could truthfully answer "no". I'm genuinely curious, if anyone can shed a little light on military law.

Again, thanks for filling in the white spaces, a lot of my anger and frustration arises from an inability to get some answers I have any confidence in.

OTH discharge at the very least will invite inquiry as to the circumstances precipitating the discharge, let there be no doubt there. Licensing authorities ask for your DD214s and cause for separation is listed right on that certificate. For a physician with a military background, this would be both rare and seen as negative until proven otherwise, and it might place the individual in a questionable enough light that choosing another candidate for a job would seem the better way to go. Personality disorders rendering a person unsuitable to military life may well make a doctor unsuitable to a particular practice. Drug or alcohol abuse, professional dereliction, incompetence, moral turptitude and conduct that is unbecoming an officer or that is disgraceful to the service are all the kinds of things that get you that form of discharge. It might not necessarily make you a convicted felon, but it certainly doesn't make you look any good. Of course lower discharges, like BCD and DD imply actual criminal convictions of progressive severity and carry with them penalties such as fines and imprisonment and the discharge with of course all of the negative implications those things have anywhere. I can't believe you would even seriously suggest that as any form of action. She would never be able to work as a doctor anywhere, probably ever.

The military often doesn't work like the rest of the world. There are no Wall Street end-year bonuses or windfalls. You don't get to be a free agent. Your idea of what you deserve can't be leveraged by the right to quit and work elsewhere. People feel free to tell you to go do difficult and unpleasant things and they don't necessarily feel obligated to be grateful or to offer any kind of reward, nor do they worry how that kind of treatment might make you feel about your employers. Service is much more of a day to day part of life, as is sacrifice. It could be fairer at times, and there is abuse and indifference and plenty of maddening inefficiencies, as with almost all bureaucracies; it is the government after all.

 

[DiveMD]

Welcome to the military. The less painful solution is to pay back and get out. She could try Flight Surg, payback her time, get out and look for a civilian residency. If she trains (residency) with the AF, she will eventually move again...maybe overseas. Think about it. Good luck.

Other option is for you to join the AF and get co-location. Not recommended though.

 

[West Side]

OTH discharge at the very least will invite inquiry as to the circumstances precipitating the discharge, let there be no doubt there. Licensing authorities ask for your DD214s and cause for separation is listed right on that certificate. For a physician with a military background, this would be both rare and seen as negative until proven otherwise, and it might place the individual in a questionable enough light that choosing another candidate for a job would seem the better way to go. Personality disorders rendering a person unsuitable to military life may well make a doctor unsuitable to a particular practice. Drug or alcohol abuse, professional dereliction, incompetence, moral turptitude and conduct that is unbecoming an officer or that is disgraceful to the service are all the kinds of things that get you that form of discharge. It might not necessarily make you a convicted felon, but it certainly doesn't make you look any good. Of course lower discharges, like BCD and DD imply actual criminal convictions of progressive severity and carry with them penalties such as fines and imprisonment and the discharge with of course all of the negative implications those things have anywhere. I can't believe you would even seriously suggest that as any form of action. She would never be able to work as a doctor anywhere, probably ever.

The military often doesn't work like the rest of the world. There are no Wall Street end-year bonuses or windfalls. You don't get to be a free agent. Your idea of what you deserve can't be leveraged by the right to quit and work elsewhere. People feel free to tell you to go do difficult and unpleasant things and they don't necessarily feel obligated to be grateful or to offer any kind of reward, nor do they worry how that kind of treatment might make you feel about your employers. Service is much more of a day to day part of life, as is sacrifice. It could be fairer at times, and there is abuse and indifference and plenty of maddening inefficiencies, as with almost all bureaucracies; it is the government after all.

obitsurgMD:

Thank you for the extremely helpful primer on military law and OTH discharges. The guiding principle here is that we wouldn't do anything that is considered illegal in the private sector. No drug use, no endangering patients care, etc. We may be of flimsy moral fibre, but there is even honor among thieves. No, all we want is to be able to treat this like any other organization one would be in the employ of. Thanks again for your thorough explanation.

What makes me go "Hmm" is that 8 out of 10 people in the private sector would maybe pause about an OTH discharge, but sufficiently explained, would probably let it go without more than a good shrug. It simply isn't that big a deal. It'd be the equivalent of not giving 2 weeks notice to most of us civilians: considered rude, but not much more.

She is going to do her residency at an AF program, unless we can finagle a switch to a deferment. And I'll be goddamned if I compound the problem by signing up myself! BAD IDEA JEANS! I can very easily find a job in her area. But there is obviously a massive difference between a job and a career move.

 

[West Side]

Welcome to the military. The less painful solution is to pay back and get out. She could try Flight Surg, payback her time, get out and look for a civilian residency. If she trains (residency) with the AF, she will eventually move again...maybe overseas. Think about it. Good luck.

Other option is for you to join the AF and get co-location. Not recommended though.

Quick question: you mention this Flight Surg option. Is this a two year tour done before her residency that would obviate the four year AD after?

For instance, could she instead of her residency at Unnamed AF Base, do a Flight Surg tour for 2y, then be footloose and fancy free to pursue civilian residencies AND be done with her AD requirement?

 

[IgD]

As some background, I'm in the private sector in a non-medical field. I do very well for myself, and would peg my earning power to be far superior to hers, even if she wasn't tied to the military. My career has been carefully planned thus far, and is somewhat geographically dependant, meaning I can't just up and move with her.

What do you do for a living? I've met a lot of guys who had to move or put their careers on hold so their spouse could fulfill their military obligation. For example, I met a lawyer who had to move OCONUS where he couldn't practice law because his wife was a pediatrician.

My advice is move where your significant other moves and support her because she would probably do the same for you. If she shows up the first day of internship full of negativity she will be set up for failure.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

Quick question: you mention this Flight Surg option. Is this a two year tour done before her residency that would obviate the four year AD after?

For instance, could she instead of her residency at Unnamed AF Base, do a Flight Surg tour for 2y, then be footloose and fancy free to pursue civilian residencies AND be done with her AD requirement?

She could do an internship and then 4 years of FS (assuming 4 year scholarship). That puts you done with AF and ready to roll in 5 years. It's not optimal, but it was my plan in case I didn't get my preference. But then again, 5 years is still a long time. . . . sorry.

 

[g293]

obitsurgMD:

Thank you for the extremely helpful primer on military law and OTH discharges. The guiding principle here is that we wouldn't do anything that is considered illegal in the private sector. No drug use, no endangering patients care, etc. We may be of flimsy moral fibre, but there is even honor among thieves. No, all we want is to be able to treat this like any other organization one would be in the employ of. Thanks again for your thorough explanation.

What makes me go "Hmm" is that 8 out of 10 people in the private sector would maybe pause about an OTH discharge, but sufficiently explained, would probably let it go without more than a good shrug. It simply isn't that big a deal. It'd be the equivalent of not giving 2 weeks notice to most of us civilians: considered rude, but not much more.

She is going to do her residency at an AF program, unless we can finagle a switch to a deferment. And I'll be goddamned if I compound the problem by signing up myself! BAD IDEA JEANS! I can very easily find a job in her area. But there is obviously a massive difference between a job and a career move.

It doesn't really matter what you do to get an other than honorable discharge, it is the fact that other than honorable is on your discharge papers that matters. Any dealings with Federal and state government can be complicated by that--it is a question on many forms (were you discharged under other but honorable conditions). Don't think that is a big deal?? Who issues your DEA license, who issues your medical license and your state DEA #? I'm not saying it would make getting those impossible, but it may be more difficult.

The other thing I have to say is who knows if OTH will cause other problems? If I were looking at two applicants to join my practice, and one had wiggled out of their HPSP committment by underhanded means, that would weigh heavily in my decision making progress. You've shown you don't honor your word when it isn't convenient for you, why should I trust you to honor your word with me??

The Flight surgeon option is more than two years. She would do her intern year, then leave residency in order to start as a Flight surgeon. She would then need to finish serving the rest of her contract time. It will reduce her time in the AF by the 2 years she didn't spend in residency.

 

[MeMoMa]

would it be possible for you to consider the option of a long distance relationship for a little while. Due to the amazing technological advances aka phones, internet... its much better now than letter writing and carrier pigeons.

I know, it still totally sucks, but sometimes you have to deal.

and who fights dirty with the US gov?

 

[Pemberley]

And please spare me the "she should honor her commitment". Honor is bilateral. When the military starts to "honorably" represent the program they're enlisting people in, then find me a seat on the bandwagon. Until then, the gloves are off.

Sorry, no sparing here.

Do you really want to marry somebody who doesn't honor her commitments?

Did somebody tell her that she had an inalienable right to a deferral?

If you say "this sucks", you'll get plenty of agreement & sympathy. If you say "we was robbed!" you'll have to convince us that anything's happening here that wasn't clearly to be expected from the moment she signed the contract -- and while it sucks, I've never seen any official HPSP documents that imply that deferrals are automatic, or even easy, to get. Or that you can buy out after you find the non-geographically-transferrable love of your life. (I sympathize with that bit; my husband is also non-geographically-transferrable.)

You're in a tough spot, as other military spouses have been before you. Most military spouses, however, make peanuts and are married to enlisted men making peanuts. You may have to take a small delay in earning oodles. Back off and look at the big picture for a second. You're wealthy, living in a free land, and about to marry the woman you love. Your life really could suck more than that. Most lives on the planet, actually, suck more than that.

 

[RugbyJC]

West Side Suffice to say, she got her specialty, but in a far-less-than optimal location.

I'll confess that I am just an MSIII, but this is one of the drawbacks to the civilian match as well. If you list a site, you might end up there. If you don't list a site, you might have to settle for it in the scramble.

Would the situation be different if she were to get a non-military residency in a location that is far-less-than optimal?

 

[FliteSurgn]

For some clarity on this issue...

I have NEVER been asked to provide a DD-214 for anything. I have 4 of them dating back to 1989 when I first separated from active duty and entered the National Guard. I have never had to pull them out of the file they sit in. I seriously doubt the contents of those papers have ANY impact on employability. I have received three state medical licenses, 2 DEA numbers, a state controlled-substance certificate, a locums assignment, a private practice job, and privileges at 8 hospitals without ANYONE ever asking to see my discharge paperwork. This doesn't include the 5 or so jobs I held during undergrad. IMHO, the importance of the DD-214 is GROSSLY overestimated.

This is coming from a guy that was in the military in one capacity or another from 1988 until 2006....From previous threads along this same vane I know I'm in the minority here, but I also feel that entering into a contract requires GOOD FAITH negotiations from both parties. When that burden isn't upheld, the validity of said contract can certainly be called into question. We all know that nothing the recruiters tell you is in good faith. Therefore, I don't see any dishonor in attempting to negate the contract...That being said, the chances are slim to none that you can actually get out of this. Sorry.

 

[West Side]

West Side Suffice to say, she got her specialty, but in a far-less-than optimal location.

I'll confess that I am just an MSIII, but this is one of the drawbacks to the civilian match as well. If you list a site, you might end up there. If you don't list a site, you might have to settle for it in the scramble.

Would the situation be different if she were to get a non-military residency in a location that is far-less-than optimal?

Given her competitiveness relative to her peer set (source: her med school friends explaining the process to me and my own friends who've gone through civilian match), and the wealth of opportunities in a radius of what might be considered a miserable drive (see, I'm flexible!), I have little doubt she could find placement in this area. We might as well call it a given, for this argument's sake.

And yes, if this was a situation of a civilian match in some godforsaken place, I would absolutely consider it to be different. The bright line here is that if we did have to move, it would be as a result of a carefully considered and, far more important, mutually agreed upon career decision.

 

[g293]

For some clarity on this issue...

I have NEVER been asked to provide a DD-214 for anything. I have 4 of them dating back to 1989 when I first separated from active duty and entered the National Guard. I have never had to pull them out of the file they sit in. I seriously doubt the contents of those papers have ANY impact on employability. I have received three state medical licenses, 2 DEA numbers, a state controlled-substance certificate, a locums assignment, a private practice job, and privileges at 8 hospitals without ANYONE ever asking to see my discharge paperwork. This doesn't include the 5 or so jobs I held during undergrad. IMHO, the importance of the DD-214 is GROSSLY overestimated.

This is coming from a guy that was in the military in one capacity or another from 1988 until 2006....From previous threads along this same vane I know I'm in the minority here, but I also feel that entering into a contract requires GOOD FAITH negotiations from both parties. When that burden isn't upheld, the validity of said contract can certainly be called into question. We all know that nothing the recruiters tell you is in good faith. Therefore, I don't see any dishonor in attempting to negate the contract...That being said, the chances are slim to none that you can actually get out of this. Sorry.

I just checked the medical license application for my state and no mention of prior military service is made on the app form. I stand corrected.

I too have never had to use my DD 214 from my prior active service from 86-93 for anything except VA loan, HPSP application and coming back on active duty.

Perhaps a discharge other than honorable wouldn't really affect your professional life if you aren't applying for a government job, gov't aid, VA benefits, etc.

I think it boils down to your conscience. If you can get out somehow and feel alright about it, what does it matter what I or anyone else thinks?? I do think she should serve out her committment, and it must be pretty difficult to get out since hundreds of people over the years have not gotten the deferment/residency/assignment that they wanted, yet I don't know of people using that as a way to get out of their contract.

 

[West Side]

I just checked the medical license application for my state and no mention of prior military service is made on the app form. I stand corrected.

I too have never had to use my DD 214 from my prior active service from 86-93 for anything except VA loan, HPSP application and coming back on active duty.

Perhaps a discharge other than honorable wouldn't really affect your professional life if you aren't applying for a government job, gov't aid, VA benefits, etc.

I think it boils down to your conscience. If you can get out somehow and feel alright about it, what does it matter what I or anyone else thinks?? I do think she should serve out her committment, and it must be pretty difficult to get out since hundreds of people over the years have not gotten the deferment/residency/assignment that they wanted, yet I don't know of people using that as a way to get out of their contract.

Again, thanks for the rational and helpful response.

I think we're rapidly coming around on "does this make us feel bad as people". I bet you can guess which side of the fence we come down on, on this particular issue. At the end of the day, let's face it: this is a career decision. As such, the rules of business and business ethics should rule the day. A bargain made with on wholly unethical pretenses...should the deal principals expect anything other than less-than-ethical behavior? Like I said in my OP, if the military was fully and faithfully representing this program, and what sacrifices would be in store, I would feel a hell of a lot worse about exploring this. I realize you said you'd look at a candidate with an OTH differently; realize you're different than the majority of doctors, who never did any time in the armed forces, and as such probably put a lot more weight on something like that.

We're now at the fact-finding point of the "how". I was wondering if she withdrew from school (i.e., went "on leave", permitting a return next year). I know there's some language in the contract saying she could be rediverted to some other Air Force capacity, but I'm interested in real world enforcement here. I can't imagine the government would see it as responsible stewardship of taxpayer money to have a janitor with $200K "recruitment" price tag. Would a year of academic leave (which would look like a withdrawl from med school) effect a de facto seperation (with full repayment, of course)? Anyone have any experience with people actually failing out of med school while on HPSP?

 

[West Side]

would it be possible for you to consider the option of a long distance relationship for a little while. Due to the amazing technological advances aka phones, internet... its much better now than letter writing and carrier pigeons.

I know, it still totally sucks, but sometimes you have to deal.

and who fights dirty with the US gov?

I mean, sure, I could settle for anything. But at risk of sounding to motivational speaker-esque, that would be letting life happen to you. I'd like to think, along with innumerable advantages in life, my success to date is due in no small part to being aggressive and taking the initiative.

Long-distance today is sort of like our treatment of syphillis today: you no longer go barking batshizzy crazy and bits of flesh no longer fall off you, but it should still sort of be avoided if possible, no?

 

[West Side]

She could do an internship and then 4 years of FS (assuming 4 year scholarship). That puts you done with AF and ready to roll in 5 years. It's not optimal, but it was my plan in case I didn't get my preference. But then again, 5 years is still a long time. . . . sorry.

Ah ha. That's not much better. How about reserve time? Still on the books? Whatever, it sounds from other topics that FS would be much worse for her medical education (and at the end of the day, that's a primary concern).

The big bugaboo here with the HPSP is that 7 years could easily turn into 11 with reserve or stop loss. What an apocalypse that would be!

 

[RugbyJC]

West Side And yes, if this was a situation of a civilian match in some godforsaken place, I would absolutely consider it to be different. The bright line here is that if we did have to move, it would be as a result of a carefully considered and, far more important, mutually agreed upon career decision.

Perhaps I am missing something, but why is this a different situation? I am asking for clarity--not to attack your argument. In theory, this COULD happen with the civilian match no matter how competative a candidate your partner is. If she were a civilian and got assigned to the middle of nowhere and too far for you to drive, how would this be different? Yes, she might have more options as a civilian, but I knpe enough people that were banking on one general location and wound up in another despite their credentials.

Did the service do something else that pissed off you and your partner?

 

[Homunculus]

I can't imagine the government would see it as responsible stewardship of taxpayer money to have a janitor with $200K "recruitment" price tag. Would a year of academic leave (which would look like a withdrawl from med school) effect a de facto seperation (with full repayment, of course)? Anyone have any experience with people actually failing out of med school while on HPSP?

they won;t make her a janitor. they will shift her to another medically related job-- social work, admin stuff, medical service corps jobs. while it looks expensive to have a "$200K janitor", in the long run it is much more expensive to set a precedent of that "$200 janitor" getting out because they were willing to fight the system. if they let her out, people will use the same angle to be let out, and instead of one overpaid janitor they have several completely lost investments in physicians.

i feel for you guys. but the best thing to do is to accept it and try to make it as workable as possible. "playing dirty" would require as much committment and work as staying in-- there are anecdotal accounts of people being . . "let go" for extreme incompetence (in medical education-- i'm sure MC et al have seen these people slip through the cracks into attendinghood), but do you really want her to stoop to that? i could never purposefully hurt others (who have no choice in the matter) or provide dangerous care just to try to get out of a commitment i had made.

best of luck with this, and keep us posted.

--your friendly neighborhood almost to payback time caveman

 

[West Side]

West Side And yes, if this was a situation of a civilian match in some godforsaken place, I would absolutely consider it to be different. The bright line here is that if we did have to move, it would be as a result of a carefully considered and, far more important, mutually agreed upon career decision.

Perhaps I am missing something, but why is this a different situation? I am asking for clarity--not to attack your argument. In theory, this COULD happen with the civilian match no matter how competative a candidate your partner is. If she were a civilian and got assigned to the middle of nowhere and too far for you to drive, how would this be different? Yes, she might have more options as a civilian, but I knpe enough people that were banking on one general location and wound up in another despite their credentials.

Did the service do something else that pissed off you and your partner?

I probably haven't made my point clear enough here. Let's say she was trying to get into, say, dermatology. Let's assume she had tremendous passion for the specialty, and as I've learned, radiology, derm, and a few others are a crapshoot no matter what your scores and credentials.

In that case, at least we could filter what programs she applied to, or make the decision that, taken holistically, it would be better for both of us to blunt my career focus and take whatever derm position offered to her, wherever. But the fulcrum here is that it would be OUR choice, not some faceless monolith deciding daddy knows best.

In this case, the situation is far worse than arbitrary. Look, the carrot of being smart and working hard is options. No more, no less. Money and success don't really get you a whole lot of certainty other than time and options. That's what it should be, at least. In the military, being smart and working your ass off actually limits your options. That's insane.

 

[West Side]

they won;t make her a janitor. they will shift her to another medically related job-- social work, admin stuff, medical service corps jobs. while it looks expensive to have a "$200K janitor", in the long run it is much more expensive to set a precedent of that "$200 janitor" getting out because they were willing to fight the system. if they let her out, people will use the same angle to be let out, and instead of one overpaid janitor they have several completely lost investments in physicians.

i feel for you guys. but the best thing to do is to accept it and try to make it as workable as possible. "playing dirty" would require as much committment and work as staying in-- there are anecdotal accounts of people being . . "let go" for extreme incompetence (in medical education-- i'm sure MC et al have seen these people slip through the cracks into attendinghood), but do you really want her to stoop to that? i could never purposefully hurt others (who have no choice in the matter) or provide dangerous care just to try to get out of a commitment i had made.

best of luck with this, and keep us posted.

--your friendly neighborhood almost to payback time caveman

And again, we're more than willing to make the government whole for their trouble; no lost investments to see here.

And again, we'd never consider an option that would be considered immoral in the rest of society. Hurting anyone, other than ourselves professionally, is right out of the question.

 

[BKK]

Your wife made a commitment with the US Government and accepted a commission in the military. The Military did not enter a contract with her spouse. Sorry.

How does a civilian deferment change the end situation, other than lenght of service required? She will still be assigned according to the needs of the service and not somewhere that might be close to your geographic location.

You both need about 800 mg of Suck-it-up and honor the committment made.

BK

 

[Pemberley]

And again, we'd never consider an option that would be considered immoral in the rest of society.

Last I checked, breaking contracts is considered immoral.

I'm still unclear on why you think the military breached its promised by not giving her a deferral. Was she promised one? 😕

 

[West Side]

Your wife made a commitment with the US Government and accepted a commission in the military. The Military did not enter a contract with her spouse. Sorry.

How does a civilian deferment change the end situation, other than lenght of service required? She will still be assigned according to the needs of the service and not somewhere that might be close to your geographic location.

You both need about 800 mg of Suck-it-up and honor the committment made.

BK

And I'm certainly not breaking the contract. I'm providing litigation support, if you will! 🙂

As I've heard it, the AF has cut the residency-to-post-residency budget by 90%, meaning an assignment is an odd-on favorite to be close to her residency. Perhaps a fantasy on my part, but the more compelling answer is that in three years, I'll have built myself a lot more flexibility in my career. Certainly not something I want to do, but a damned sight better than picking up and leaving relatively near the outset.

Pemberly, perhaps you need to revisit the difference between unethical and immoral. I think I have a copy of Election sitting around here somewhere. 😀 And are you honestly trying to plead ignorance in terms of recruitment dishonesty? Please don't be disingenuous, you're well aware of the game that's played out there. Not only was she told EXPLICITLY that she could get any residency she damn well pleased as long as she qualified, but the reserve requirement was defined to be "paid off" during the residency. All, I've found in my research, to be flat wrong, in addition to scads of other false promises and misrepresentations. None of which, naturally, were documented. 🙁 Trust me, blame has to be laid at her feet for not doing her due diligence, but how many 21 year olds know better?

I have no idea why you'd defend the heinous practices of military recruiters. Does misery really love company that much?

 

[resxn]

First, let me say that I have no problem with someone trying to get out of their commitment if they can by ethically/morally acceptable means. I for one would have tried to get out of it had I known what my life would have been for the last 3 years. But, being in it, I am not going to stoop to inappropriate options to get out earlier. Now if they offered the out, I'll be the first in line, even though I'm almost done anyway.

Second, there is one out for those with a commitment and that is that if you win over $900,000 in some kind of lottery or sweepstakes, they can/might/have let you out of your commitment earlier than need be. There was an HPSP doc here whose wife won $2.5 mil in a local casino and they let him out early. I don't know how or why and I don't even know if it is written down somewhere or if this was some crazy exception, but it happened. I know the guy. He's now in private practice here in town. Another 0-6 won $900,000 in casino here as well and although he had a commitment of another 3 years they let him out early. Not sure how that worked either. He was not medical person--just a line Col.

If either of these cases are really as simple as they were made out to be, especially like the doc's wife situation, there's got to be some kind of buy out option for certain circumstances even though the contracts say it cannot be done.

However, it does seem that getting out before your commitment is up is about as easy as winning the lottery.

 

[West Side]

You're her fiancee, and yet your would rather have her fail out of med school or get a dishonorable discharge than interfere with your own career plans.

It's pretty obvious what's going to happen here. At some point, she's going to accept the fact that she has to serve, and go do it. Since, in your world, your career matters above everything else, you will not go with her. Then you will break up, both relieved that you never actually tied the knot.

Why are we even still discussing this? When students consider trying to get out of their HPSP contract, that's one thing. But this guy is a civilian, and would rather encourage his military girlfriend to commit fraud, than disrupt his own little life. I don't know why anyone would be interested in helping him.

Hello? Military administrational complex? Is that you? Thanks for giving me a buzz...

The foregoing has been almost solely my rationalization for being involved. She has her own litany of reasons for wanting out, the laundry list of which has been exhaustively catalogued on...well, ON THE REST OF THIS FORUM. Lousy training, excessive busywork, poor facilities, interference with an ability to render the best care, etc. etc. etc.

I would have figured someone with 300+ posts wouldn't want to read more of the same complaints.

As I've said many times, a dishonorable discharge carries a lot of weight with a small subset of the general population: namely, those that have been in the military. So I don't REALLY think of that as a massive sacrifice on her part. But to be honest, if you really begrudge someone for pursuing happiness, then I really questions why such a sadist would be in medicine in the first place.

I've heard of someone winning the lottery being let out...comically, it's considered a "financial hardship". If anyone would be so lucky to endure such strife...

 

[West Side]

This would help me out a lot: who makes the calls on seperation issues? Is there one national person? Does each base have one? Is it a certain position or rank? Who makes the call if the candidate is still in school?

In essence, who do I have to have in a picture doing blow off a 14-year old Thai hooker? 😀 All kidding aside, it would be good to be able to set up some sort of candid conversation with this person(s).

 

[IgD]

If you really want out of the obligation and feel you have exceptional circumstances I would consult with a USAF lawyer. I would not call the USAF directly and request out. You are too emotionally invested in the situation. If you do it will make your fiance look bad, make everyone angry and harm her career (and your relationship).

My recommendation is that you try to deal with the situation in a positive way. Focus on the positives of a career in military medicine, give unconditional support to your fiance (who likely feels 10x worse than you do) and have faith. If your fiance is as good as you claimed, she will thrive no matter the situation and things will work out.

 

[West Side]

If you really want out of the obligation and feel you have exceptional circumstances I would consult with a USAF lawyer. I would not call the USAF directly and request out. You are too emotionally invested in the situation. If you do it will make your fiance look bad, make everyone angry and harm her career (and your relationship).

My recommendation is that you try to deal with the situation in a positive way. Focus on the positives of a career in military medicine, give unconditional support to your fiance (who likely feels 10x worse than you do) and have faith. If your fiance is as good as you claimed, she will thrive no matter the situation and things will work out.

Be clear, I'm not going to do anything. I'm supporting her in her desire to seperate from this situation. When you say a USAF lawyer, I assume you mean an attorney that specializes in military law, not a JAG, right? We've begun to discuss that, but I wanted to be educated about this process before retaining someone. Thanks for the cautionary note, though. I'm crazy, but not stupid!

When I ask for who one would be dealing with when requesting some sort of seperation (i.e., whose ass needs to feel pain if we're going to be pains-in-the-asses), it would be her speaking to them, with me assisting in whatever way she would need.

 

[8744]

Again, thanks for the rational and helpful response.

I think we're rapidly coming around on "does this make us feel bad as people". I bet you can guess which side of the fence we come down on, on this particular issue. At the end of the day, let's face it: this is a career decision. As such, the rules of business and business ethics should rule the day. A bargain made with on wholly unethical pretenses...should the deal principals expect anything other than less-than-ethical behavior? Like I said in my OP, if the military was fully and faithfully representing this program, and what sacrifices would be in store, I would feel a hell of a lot worse about exploring this. I realize you said you'd look at a candidate with an OTH differently; realize you're different than the majority of doctors, who never did any time in the armed forces, and as such probably put a lot more weight on something like that.

We're now at the fact-finding point of the "how". I was wondering if she withdrew from school (i.e., went "on leave", permitting a return next year). I know there's some language in the contract saying she could be rediverted to some other Air Force capacity, but I'm interested in real world enforcement here. I can't imagine the government would see it as responsible stewardship of taxpayer money to have a janitor with $200K "recruitment" price tag. Would a year of academic leave (which would look like a withdrawl from med school) effect a de facto seperation (with full repayment, of course)? Anyone have any experience with people actually failing out of med school while on HPSP?

You know, if you objected for some personal, ethical, or religious reasons that would be one thing that most people, even a highly pro-military guy like me, could at least respect. But weaseling out of an oath and a contract because it is a "career" thing is not going to get much sympathy.

Was it wholely unethical? Salesmen always play up the good and play down the bad. I bet her contract made no promises at all.

 

[8744]

Be clear, I'm not going to do anything. I'm supporting her in her desire to seperate from this situation. When you say a USAF lawyer, I assume you mean an attorney that specializes in military law, not a JAG, right? We've begun to discuss that, but I wanted to be educated about this process before retaining someone.

When I ask for who one would be dealing with when requesting some sort of seperation (i.e., whose ass needs to feel pain if we're going to be pains-in-the-asses), it would be her speaking to them, with me assisting in whatever way she would need.

You need to be mightily well endowed to inflict pain on any government bureacracy. It's a matter of life and death to you but to the functionary who's job it is to process your request it's just another piece of paper he's going to shuffle around Monday through Friday nine to four.

In the military, you can expect that those in your chain of command immedietely above you (Squad Leader, Platoon Commander, Company Commander) will work dilligently for your welfare but the higher you go, the more coggish you become and the more you are fighting inertia.

 

[changhe]

This would help me out a lot: who makes the calls on seperation issues? Is there one national person? Does each base have one? Is it a certain position or rank? Who makes the call if the candidate is still in school?

Her chain of command. Though I'd have to agree with some of what was said above and say, dude, I'm sorry, but she should have realized that this could happen when she signed up, and you both should have talked about the fact that it could happen when you got engaged.

As far as the chain of command is concerned, they really won't care if you are engaged. Married, maybe they'll have a smidgen of sympathy, but I seriously doubt you're going to be able to get out of this, short of outright immorality.

Despite what Panda Bear said above, I wouldn't be surprised if her recruiter lied outright. Anything they say you have to get in writing. Not helpful now, of course, but I thought that was kind of a given in contract and business negotiations.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

This would help me out a lot: who makes the calls on seperation issues? Is there one national person? Does each base have one? Is it a certain position or rank? Who makes the call if the candidate is still in school?

In essence, who do I have to have in a picture doing blow off a 14-year old Thai hooker? 😀 All kidding aside, it would be good to be able to set up some sort of candid conversation with this person(s).

You beg the issue of standing. If you are not her spouse and you are not her attorney, then what is your interest? I am not saying this to be obtuse, because it is obvious, but presuming to "get in touch" with anyone with any sort of authority to act on behalf of the Secretary of the Air Force (probably some one or two-star general at the Pentagon in their bureau of personnel) regarding releasing contractually-obligated commissioned officers from their service obligations, you are basically saying "let my friend out of the Air Force and her contract because I want her to live near me and don't want to give up my high-paying job so that I could accompany her, married to her or not." How do you think they will see her situation? And why should they care what you want?

Spousal dislocation and geographic separation is a huge negative to military life, especially with professionals whose spouses may want or have significant careers of their own. It is where the services just pretend the other person, especially a civilian, just has to bend to the will of the service and go where the member goes. Lots of junior officers with otherwise promising careers leave for that reason. And the military pretty much doesn't care.

I have heard that members with windfall fortunes are released on the basis of being in the best interests of the service. Wealth wildly out of proportion to rank could disrupt good order and discipline and unit cohesion. My guess is that kind of approval comes from the particular service branch undersecretary by way of the general officer commanding the personnel bureau dealing with retentions and discharges of administrative nature (i.e., not punitive discharges like Bad Conduct Discharge or Dishonorable Discharge, which result only from Courts Martial). You might get a general discharge, but for that sort of reason, there would be no negative connotations.

I agree with the poster above that contracts are fair only when made in good faith and under terms of full and fair disclosure. The military services do not do this; the person handing you your contract is your salesman, the recruiter. Do I think that recruiters lie? Yes. Do they minimize the problems in military professional training and practice in order to meet their quotas? I think so. Just because the service branch paid tuition bills and a stipend doesn't mean they should be excused from other obligations they should meet, including the obligation to fully train you to perform the professional duties of a physician. And that should not be construed to merely give you enough training to qualify you for a license somewhere. Where they fail, they invite others to call foul.

Your best bet is to consult a lawyer with a practice focus on military regulations and contracting. Posting here isn't likely to get you any farther.

 

[Mirror Form]

Perhaps a fantasy on my part, but the more compelling answer is that in three years, I'll have built myself a lot more flexibility in my career. Certainly not something I want to do, but a damned sight better than picking up and leaving relatively near the outset.

Hey, sorry to hear about your wife's bad luck. Although, it wasn't really back luck. She was never very likely to get a deferral. A lot of us medical folk don't realize that in private business, you can't just expect to leave your current job and replicate the same type of opportunity elsewhere. I can see why you want your fiance out of the contract so badly.

However, keep in mind that half of the military has wanted out of their contract very badly at one point (or at multiple points, or continually). The military is very good at not making it easy, no matter how dirty you want to get. Also, many many military personel have been forced to live somewhere that they really don't want to (I was miserable at my post last year). So it's not like being moved somewhere you don't want to go is unusual. It's commonplace and standard.

When your fiance signed the contract, she signed away her freedom, period. The military's needs now come far above the needs of your wife. So when it comes to deferrments, it doesn't matter all that much that your wife worked hard, nor does it matter what she wants. BTW, the military denies deferrments to many phenomenal applicants all the time. You two aren't the only ones who are bitter about it!

And are you honestly trying to plead ignorance in terms of recruitment dishonesty? Please don't be disingenuous, you're well aware of the game that's played out there. Not only was she told EXPLICITLY that she could get any residency she damn well pleased as long as she qualified, but the reserve requirement was defined to be "paid off" during the residency. All, I've found in my research, to be flat wrong, in addition to scads of other false promises and misrepresentations. None of which, naturally, were documented. 🙁 Trust me, blame has to be laid at her feet for not doing her due diligence, but how many 21 year olds know better?

Actually, if (and only if) she does a military residency, it will pay off the "inactive reserve" obligation part of her contract. So by doing a military residency, she can't be reactivated after her four years are done provided she remembers to resigne her commission. Second, of course the part about "you can get any residency you want" was all Bullsh*t. They always lie about that information. But it's not in the contract, and unfortunately 21 y/o's are old enough to sign one. Do you think we should change the age of legally signing contracts to be older? The military convinced me to sign when I was 18. I won't get out until I'm 35. And that's w/o signing up for any additional training time (other than standard medical school stuff, and no, they didn't even pay for med school).

 

[st0rmin]

🙂 Suffice to say, she got her specialty, but in a far-less-than optimal location.

😕

What I find ironic about this whole situation is that she matched, in her specialty, in a location on her match list, and she is still complaining (at least her fiancee is) about that. Look on the bright side, she could have not matched in her specialty (quite common in the AF), gotten a transitional year internship somewhere (probably at a less than ideal location for your situation) and then been forced to do a flight surgeon tour (which means more less than ideal locations for both of you).

Get in, work hard, get out ASAP.

 

[Pemberley]

Pemberly, perhaps you need to revisit the difference between unethical and immoral.

True enough. I've never really studied the philosophy behind the distinction. Regarding both as qualities that one ought to endeavor to avoid, the difference between them has never been important to me. Evidently you think that unethical is not something to be avoided? Be sure you tell your fiancee as much BEFORE the wedding. And make sure she knows which things are unethical (which you indicate that you will do) and immoral (which, you claim, you won't do.)

And are you honestly trying to plead ignorance in terms of recruitment dishonesty? Please don't be disingenuous, you're well aware of the game that's played out there. Not only was she told EXPLICITLY that she could get any residency she damn well pleased as long as she qualified, but the reserve requirement was defined to be "paid off" during the residency.

Nope, I have no doubt a recruiter would tell her she could be stationed on the moon if he could get her to sign the dotted line. Additionally, I have no doubt that many recreuiters are genuinely uninformed about HPSP.

HOWEVER, are you really telling me that she didn't do even a tiny bit of research? That the contract she signed had the wrong info on it? These "confusions" you claim to have had involve facts that I ran across probably on my very first day, certainly in my very first week, of considering HPSP. They are on some of the military's own HPSP websites, for crying out loud! I have decided against it -- 99% sure -- for some of the very same issues that are motivating you now. If I could do it, she could too.

No, I'm not naive. I would have to be, to buy into your story of victimhood. The more likely scenario is that she hadn't met you yet, and it was a good idea for her at the time. Now she has met you, geographical location is important, and you want her to have changed her mind. You are selfishly trying to pursuade your fiancee to do something either immoral or unethical -- you choose, I'm not picky -- in order to advance your own career.

There are real sob stories in the military and in military medicine. You aren't one. If you want her to break a contract because (you claim) she's changed her mind, man up to it. Don't give us the song and dance about how it's all justified.

 

[i want out]

Ever watch MASH?

Remember Klinger?

Since the military of the United States began over 200 years ago, there have been people who wanted out. The Military has spent that entire 200 years finding ways to write contracts, and make getting out so incredibly difficult, that you will just realize that the path of least resistance, is to do the time, and then get out.

Then Pray that you don't get called back from IRR.

i want out

 

[AF M4]

Follow Orbitsburg's advice and contact a good lawyer who has military connections. As cynical as it sounds, any problem can be solved if you find the right person and have enough money. Good luck.

 

[delicatefade]

Unlike you, however, they have a basis for what they say.

Just because he hasn't experienced personally doesn't make his statements less true. They are either true or false. His experience is of no matter. Of course, the abundance of current and ex-active duty physicians on this site indicate that the allegations are probably true.

 

[DiveMD]

Of course I've read all the posts. Unlike you (apparently) I have also spent a little time in military MTFs, and thus far have had generally positive experiences.

A lot of posters here hate it when students talk about how great military medicine is before they experience it. I get that. But pray tell, what precisely are your qualifications to comment on "lousy training, excessive busywork, poor facilities, interference with an ability to render the best care, etc."?

And really, your whole point here is one big straw man argument. You want your girlfriend out because she didn't get what she wanted. Boo hoo. Your posts have made it clear that you have personal reasons for seeking her seperation. Your comments on the quality of military training are nothing but a manipulative attempt to appeal to the other posters here who espouse those opinions. Unlike you, however, they have a basis for what they say.

I am sure that if she had matched to civilian program outside your predetermined acceptable geographic locale, you would be having this exact same discussion in the General Residency Issues forum, under the title "Getting out of a Residency contract".

Very true...

 

[Elmer dee]

We are all victims of our own decisions, those we have made, and those we have yet to make.

 

[Homunculus]

And again, we're more than willing to make the government whole for their trouble; no lost investments to see here.

And again, we'd never consider an option that would be considered immoral in the rest of society. Hurting anyone, other than ourselves professionally, is right out of the question.

that's the thing-- if they let you out, allowing you to repay or even repay with penalties/interest/whatever, it will set a precedent that other people will take advantage of. they risk losing not only your SO but many other "investments" as well. it's been pointed out before-- they don't need money, they need physicians.

i'm interested to see where this goes, but i'm not optimistic-- it's not like people have frantically tried to get out before. people with fewer morals than you have tried and failed. but with enough money who knows.

--your friendly neighborhood lottery playing caveman