Seperation Strategies for a SigO

[West Side]

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That was not my point. He attempted to explain away her desire for seperation as resulting from concerns about the quality of military medicine. His previous posts make it clear that they desire seperation in order to make life more convenient. This is obvious deception, as he has no basis for judging the quality of military training. Ergo, he is simply mimicking other posts he has read regarding this issue, in order to make his unethical behavior more palatable to readers of this forum.

It is the equivalent of a rapist, after attacking a stranger, claiming that it was okay because she was a *****.

What in the...

This post is so spurious and insane that it's at turns hilarious and pathetic.

How'd you deduce that I have motivations other than medical, Sherlock? Could it be because I've spelled it out in every single post I've made? And unless I'm unwittingly a male Helen Keller, I think I'm qualified to speak to my fiancee's concerns (shocker to follow: DIFFERENT THAN MINE) about her medical training in the context of military medicine because we discuss them. She talks, I listen, sometimes I ask questions, she listens. Lather, rinse, repeat. Hopefully not a novel concept when you're in clinic. Ye gods.

To summarize:

• Her: concerned about medical services and opportunity for the best training she can avail herself of; wants to stick around my sweet ass; admittedly made horrible decision (and no, I don't excuse her for not doing her due diligence, as I've also said in preceding posts.)
• Me: concerned about my career given volatility in geographic location for the better part of the next decade. Worried about state of relationship after 7 years of long distance, embitterment, jading, etc. Considering resentment if I follow her around, and I'm in my mid-30's with no real career achievement to speak of.

I know for the vast majority of helpful and thoughtful posters in this thread, that was needlessly condescending, but it takes all sorts, apparently.

I also find it interesting that a great number of you, on both sides of the fence on this issue, seem content to favor taking the consequences of her decision (yes, it was a choice) lying down. To paraphrase a lot of posts, it's "She made a bad decision, nothing you can do about it now". Maybe it's an attitude inculcated by the military, which REQUIRES a certain level of "yes, sir, whatever you say, sir" for an efficient operation. God knows we couldn't have round table committees in the battlefield. But there is something to be said for attempting to improve one's lot in life, whether a product of circumstance or choice, no? Life in the non-military world is not a set of orders handed down from on high; it's what you make of it. I've found in my life that simply asking the question, making a request, and sticking to it gets you a lot further than you'd ever expect. It distresses me, for all of your sakes, that a lot of your ambitions are tamped down by a culture of fear or retribution, by myths propagated (either consciously or unconsciously) by the military to suit their own ends. I'm talking about myths of treble payback of monies paid (myth), that an OTH is the equivalent of a civilian felony (partly myth, depending...), and that it's impossible to get out (we'll see! 🙂)

As previous posters have suggested, we're contacting attorneys for the rest of the week to see if there's any headway to be made there. If anyone has any recommended counsel, feel free to post their contact info, or PM them if that makes you feel more comfortable.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

that's the thing-- if they let you out, allowing you to repay or even repay with penalties/interest/whatever, it will set a precedent that other people will take advantage of. they risk losing not only your SO but many other "investments" as well. it's been pointed out before-- they don't need money, they need physicians.

i'm interested to see where this goes, but i'm not optimistic-- it's not like people have frantically tried to get out before. people with fewer morals than you have tried and failed. but with enough money who knows.

--your friendly neighborhood lottery playing caveman

I have been lurking on this thread ab initio. Contrary to popular belief, in between the epochs I spend here posting my pleonastic philippics, I do hold down a paying job as a practicing anesthesiologist. Luckily for y'all, I wouldn't violate my hospital's AUP/TOS by posting from work, else they'd have to rename this forum MCSDN (R).

Rather than reiterating my personal take on this recurrent issue ("Oops! I/we made a big mistake by signing my/my SO's life away! Help me get out of my HPSP/USU [less often] Active Duty Service Commitment!), may I respectfully suggest to our puissant moderator that this topic be made a sticky?

Suggested thread title: "Oops! Get me out of my HPSP/USU commitment!"

Suggested links:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=356840 (this thread)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=326839
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=341496http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4592348#post4592348http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-341496.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=349839
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=347866
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=192004
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=317888http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-317888.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320870http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-320870.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324127
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=329538http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-329538.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=337734
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332746 (HPSP lies)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=280105
and, finally, the crux of the matter:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3651856&postcount=12

--
R
Ex-LtCol, USAF, MC
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

P.S. She should do her time as she promised then get out. Given that you love her, you guys will work it out somehow. Think of the hundreds of thousands of nearly penniless military families who are surviving back to back deployments of mom, dad, or both to the desert...then consider how much better your worst case scenario will be.

P.P.S. Amor vincit omnia.

P.P.P.S. You must understand that I am required to include 5 sesquipedalian lexemes plus two obscure Latin quotes per post. It's in my SDN TOS. What can I do to get out of it? Nothing.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Give it up, yo! Weeeesss' Siiiiiideeeee!

Ahem. Sorry... that was the first thing I thought of.

West side:

I assume you're an attorney, yes? You've dropped enough legalese in this thread that I'm comfortable making that assumption. You've gained a position in a firm, with potential for upward mobility and partnership, and you don't want to throw that away by following your wife around the country. I empathize... I really do.

I don't, however, condone "playing dirty" to get out of it. Integrity first... and your wife did sign the contract.

Here's the deal. The military is NOT going to let your wife go gently, if at all. They have more attorneys than you could ever retain, and they can afford to drag this out. They'll also make your wife's life difficult in every way while this is being litigated, including deploying her at the first opportunity (and hell yes, they'd do it). They get a great financial deal out of their docs, particularly the subspecialists, and the compulsory nature of the service combined with those "guaranteed" accessions in the pipeline is the only thing that keeps military medicine staffed. If there was a way to "buy out" of it, every single surgical sub-specialty group would raid military medicine, and offer military docs a buyout of their HPSP contract as a signing perk

Remember, there's a lot at stake here for the military. They're never going to let you set any kind of precedent if they can help it. If you open up a legal hole in that HPSP pipeline and the other soon-to-be-docs see that glimmer of daylight, they're going to head for it en masse, and the three services will hemorrhage docs like a gang-banger with a transected aorta.

Good luck, guy... but you're probably going to be forced to suck it up and do your time.

 

[West Side]

No, not an attorney. Frankly, if I was, I'd probably have a much better idea where to go to find information or professional help.

You are, of course, correct in that the military needs to engender the conventional wisdom that it's impossible to get out. It seems to me, however, that so many people who realize this is a terrible career choice, both for themselves and for the military, who cannot possibly benefit from people so miserable in their employ, never even get to the point of exploring their options. I mean, I haven't found a single person who's gone through the process. Not one. I've been looking, on and off, for two weeks. Not even a person who's been told "no"! I find that staggering.

Perhaps there are confidentiality agreements in place. Wouldn't surprise me, and as you said, it'd be a smart move.

 

[changhe]

It seems to me, however, that so many people who realize this is a terrible career choice, both for themselves and for the military, who cannot possibly benefit from people so miserable in their employ, never even get to the point of exploring their options.

Actually, the military has a long history, both in this and in other countries, of getting the most out of people who are miserable. And if they have to work you like a galley slave, they just might. Galley slaves won wars, once upon a time.

I think you are overly optimistic. The people on this thread telling you about how the military has more lawyers than you can afford, etc. are not slavishly defending an institution they believe can do no wrong. All of them (even me, and I'm still fairly pleased with this system) recognize that it isn't perfect, and sometimes you get screwed. I think what you see as cowed, humiliated souls are really a bunch of people who have sucked it up for one reason or another, hold fast to their sense of honor, and think others should do the same. Whining is never attractive, especially to military types.

 

[Homunculus]

I mean, I haven't found a single person who's gone through the process. Not one. I've been looking, on and off, for two weeks. Not even a person who's been told "no"! I find that staggering.

Perhaps there are confidentiality agreements in place. Wouldn't surprise me, and as you said, it'd be a smart move.

i know of three personally who tried and found there was no way out. period. unless they wanted to serve out their days in the medical service corps as administrators or some alternative career pathway. if you're gonna be in, you may as well get your medical education and get the bonuses that medical folks get.

all were interns, all were freshly in, all failed. no confidentiality agreement. two navy, one army. the best you can hope for (and one did this) is to shorten your time in by foregoing the remainder of residency and burning your time up doing GMO years and GTFO.

--your friendly neighborhood thinking of stickying this per MC's request caveman

 

[West Side]

Actually, the military has a long history, both in this and in other countries, of getting the most out of people who are miserable. And if they have to work you like a galley slave, they just might. Galley slaves won wars, once upon a time.

I think you are overly optimistic. The people on this thread telling you about how the military has more lawyers than you can afford, etc. are not slavishly defending an institution they believe can do no wrong. All of them (even me, and I'm still fairly pleased with this system) recognize that it isn't perfect, and sometimes you get screwed. I think what you see as cowed, humiliated souls are really a bunch of people who have sucked it up for one reason or another, hold fast to their sense of honor, and think others should do the same. Whining is never attractive, especially to military types.

If you want to know, I'm actually not that optimistic, but I think it deserves a try. In my preliminary conversations with attorneys, it appears this is far more common than is generally perceived. Mind you, I'm not saying it's common, but it's certainly isn't "nobody", and it's not "impossible". And I wasn't even claiming the general military medical population is cowed or feckless, although it would be easy to draw that conclusion. I do think that if your perception of reality is anchored in a perception that the chances are infintesimal and the possibility of retribution is high, you're not apt to try. That's a calculus you've all made, and none of you could be blamed or judged for coming to that conclusion.

As Woody Allen once said, 80% of success is showing up. I know it's been proven time and again in my life, maybe the odds roll with me one more time?

 

[West Side]

i know of three personally who tried and found there was no way out. period. unless they wanted to serve out their days in the medical service corps as administrators or some alternative career pathway. if you're gonna be in, you may as well get your medical education and get the bonuses that medical folks get.

all were interns, all were freshly in, all failed. no confidentiality agreement. two navy, one army. the best you can hope for (and one did this) is to shorten your time in by foregoing the remainder of residency and burning your time up doing GMO years and GTFO.

--your friendly neighborhood thinking of stickying this per MC's request caveman

Thanks for that. I suppose I meant no-one has posted first hand experience of trying and failing, or trying and succeeding. I have no idea what kind of selection bias might be at play there.

I think you should sticky this. I would be stunned if 21 year olds were thinking of anyone other than themselves when considering this decision, but damned if 21 year olds aren't 25 by the end of med school. Math is funny like that. Hopefully, this would be a cautionary tale for how much stress and misery this inflicts on those around you, or are to be around you in the future.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I know two colleagues that attempted to get out of their committment early.

One had heavy political connections, and managed to finagle a hardship discharge a year early. The second doc was not successful... and the second doc had FAR, FAR more personal hardship than the first (the first doc was basically being inconvenienced).

I wasn't directly involved, but the second doc was a friend of mine, and it was actually heartbreaking to watch it unfold... that's how bad it was.

I won't give you the details, but suffice it to say that it was one of the saddest miscarriages of command decision-making I can remember from my military days. It brought one point home to me: political connections matter more that your actual situation.

 

[IgD]

With all the disagreements here it's great to see the forum actually become unified about something!

 

[GMO2003]

anything is possible...but the likelihood of you being successfull are basically slim to absolutely none...with military medicine stretched absolutely thin and the President just authorizing the deployment of 20,000 additional troops to Iraq...I have to say that you and your wife have a better chance of winning the Powerball, curing cancer, and finding Bobby Fischer and Jimmy Hoffa all in the same day than getting out of her committment...the only option I see is to get out ASAP by completing internship and a utilization tour as a GMO/FS/DMO or whatever

xGMO2003

 

[8744]

No, not an attorney. Frankly, if I was, I'd probably have a much better idea where to go to find information or professional help.

You are, of course, correct in that the military needs to engender the conventional wisdom that it's impossible to get out. It seems to me, however, that so many people who realize this is a terrible career choice, both for themselves and for the military, who cannot possibly benefit from people so miserable in their employ, never even get to the point of exploring their options. I mean, I haven't found a single person who's gone through the process. Not one. I've been looking, on and off, for two weeks. Not even a person who's been told "no"! I find that staggering.

Perhaps there are confidentiality agreements in place. Wouldn't surprise me, and as you said, it'd be a smart move.

Bwahhhaaaa. Excuse me. Bwahhahaahah. Hah hah....he...har....

Whew! (Wipes tears from eyes).

Oh man, the military operates at a low-level of unhappiness. It's sort of the baseline. I love the Marine Corps, am glad I served, and on balance enjoyed my eight years but I'd be lying if I said that every single day was one, long, beautiful simultaneous orgasm. Even in my day very few people re-enlisted and it was by no means the worst Marines who complained all the time. In fact, my best Marines where some of the ones couting down the days until discharge. That's the paradox of military service. Your girlfriend might hate every goddam minute of her time in the Army but if she's like most people, she is going to give true and faithful service where and when it matters.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I

 

[West Side]

Bwahhhaaaa. Excuse me. Bwahhahaahah. Hah hah....he...har....

Whew! (Wipes tears from eyes).

Oh man, the military operates at a low-level of unhappiness. It's sort of the baseline. I love the Marine Corps, am glad I served, and on balance enjoyed my eight years but I'd be lying if I said that every single day was one, long, beautiful simultaneous orgasm. Even in my day very few people re-enlisted and it was by no means the worst Marines who complained all the time. In fact, my best Marines where some of the ones couting down the days until discharge. That's the paradox of military service. Your girlfriend might hate every goddam minute of her time in the Army but if she's like most people, she is going to give true and faithful service where and when it matters.

I think you've misconstrued what I meant. I meant that the military would operate so much more efficiently if it had people that wanted to be there, or were ambivalent at best. Believe it or not, the military is not immune from the human dynamics that affect every single other organization on the planet. That is, if someone doesn't want to be there, it poisons the well for the undecided. Simple fact.

I'm saying there should be a mechanism for those that absolutely hate it, because it negatively colors the glasses of those who haven't yet made up their mind. I'm willing to bet some of those that hate their service elsewhere on these boards had a few attendings or fellow doctors that were miserable. We're criminalizing people that realize the best use of their lives is not the military; we're weakening the military by keeping these people in. It's the most basic of management theory.

And if that meant everyone jumped ship, maybe that would be a vehicle for change, as so many people have suggested. Everyone leaves tire tracks? Well, maybe that should suggest something. Does no-one find it paradoxical that in a country that professes freedom and self-determination, that its cudgel is one of the few markets that aren't free?

 

[Homunculus]

depending on what your SO looks like, and if you don't mind this kinda thing it worked for this person and apparently has worked before. . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16585140/

--your friendly neighborhood i read it for the articles caveman

 

[West Side]

depending on what your SO looks like, and if you don't mind this kinda thing it worked for this person and apparently has worked before. . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16585140/

--your friendly neighborhood i read it for the articles caveman

Well, she's a damned sight better-looking than that f'd out matron. That said, I'm not sure she's capable of this type of wit:

"The Air Force says go do something amazing, and I think I pretty much did."

Words to live by, ladies and germs!

 

[Neuronix]

Wow, this sounds surprisingly like me a few years ago. I was engaged to an army girl. We just called it quits because it wasn't going to work and she wasn't willing to do any of the crazy stuff necessary to get out. It might be better that way for you too.

Sorry to break it to you. Honestly, if you're serious about this stop talking to these guys and go find a lawyer who works on military issues.

 

[edmadison]

Essentially you have to make a choice. The path to an early exit is unsure and it is through a one -way door. If you attempt that path and don't attain your goal, your SO will likely get slammed into a transitional residency and sent out to be a GMO for four years and maybe longer due to stop loss. If you choose to stay in, your SO may obtain her competitive residency, get decent GME training and become board certified in her intended specialty. Then she'll pay back her four years (or longer due to stop loss) and leave the military practicing what she wants to do. Remember that happiness is relative. Some specialties have it much better than others. For us in peds we're doing exactly what we'd do in civilian world -- well except for going to Iraq. We see patients in clinic, have good volume and get paid well. Other's don't have it so good.

I'd recommend against posing in playboy, however. An officer would likely be court martialed for doing that.

Ed

 

[West Side]

Essentially you have to make a choice. The path to an early exit is unsure and it is through a one -way door. If you attempt that path and don't attain your goal, your SO will likely get slammed into a transitional residency and sent out to be a GMO for four years and maybe longer due to stop loss. If you choose to stay in, your SO may obtain her competitive residency, get decent GME training and become board certified in her intended specialty. Then she'll pay back her four years (or longer due to stop loss) and leave the military practicing what she wants to do. Remember that happiness is relative. Some specialties have it much better than others. For us in peds we're doing exactly what we'd do in civilian world -- well except for going to Iraq. We see patients in clinic, have good volume and get paid well. Other's don't have it so good.

I'd recommend against posing in playboy, however. An officer would likely be court martialed for doing that.

Ed

Because we're looking at all possible alternatives, can you folks enlighten me on Door Number Flight Surgery? I realize there's stop loss, but I don't think that's a bigger risk than if she did her specialty residency, then her AD. It is, however, the absolute fastest path back to autonomy, which in my opinion, is the #1 most valuable chip she gave up signing this ridiculous contract.

In essence, what I'd like to know is:

• Lifestyle: having only a hazy idea what FS's do, are we talking about being stationed at a base, and clearing pilots for duty? Or are we talking about choppering into hot areas to sew someone's hand back on for evacuation? Do the assignments have a term you can expect (i.e., she'll be shifted around every 18 months, or she can occupy a spot as long as she so chooses)?
• Who doles out these assignments? I keep reading the term "detailer". Is this jargon for some position in the hierarchy? Is it one person, or a committee?
• Does it win you points for volunteering for this option (i.e., I'll sign up for this waste of time, but only if I get this short list of bases)?
• From an admissions standpoint for the civilian match, can any of you comment on how it might be applicable or hurt one's chances?

Thanks, this board has been a wealth of information so far. Keep the good stuff coming, please.

 

[NavyFP]

Because we're looking at all possible alternatives, can you folks enlighten me on Door Number Flight Surgery? I realize there's stop loss, but I don't think that's a bigger risk than if she did her specialty residency, then her AD. It is, however, the absolute fastest path back to autonomy, which in my opinion, is the #1 most valuable chip she gave up signing this ridiculous contract.

In essence, what I'd like to know is:

• Lifestyle: having only a hazy idea what FS's do, are we talking about being stationed at a base, and clearing pilots for duty? Or are we talking about choppering into hot areas to sew someone's hand back on for evacuation? Do the assignments have a term you can expect (i.e., she'll be shifted around every 18 months, or she can occupy a spot as long as she so chooses)?
• Who doles out these assignments? I keep reading the term "detailer". Is this jargon for some position in the hierarchy? Is it one person, or a committee?
• Does it win you points for volunteering for this option (i.e., I'll sign up for this waste of time, but only if I get this short list of bases)?
• From an admissions standpoint for the civilian match, can any of you comment on how it might be applicable or hurt one's chances?

Thanks, this board has been a wealth of information so far. Keep the good stuff coming, please.

1) Flight Surgeons (FS) are assigned to a squadron and go where the squadron does. Most of the time they will be back at the base doing primary care, but if the squadron deploys, so does she.

2) Detailers are the assignment officers. They are the ones who dole out the assignments. It is one person, but they work in conjuction with the others.

3) If you volunteer early there are more choices.

4) I have known a number of GMOs who have gone on to do competitive residencies. I have never heard any negative feedback. In general the residency programs like GMOs because the tend to be more mature and have a wealth of experience. (might not be in the specialty, but it makes them better residents.)

 

[sethco]

Flight surgeons may or may not be assigned to a squadron (If they are not they are assigned to a medical group). Deployments vary very widely depending on location, squadron, and aircraft. In addition, just because you are assigned to a squadron does not mean you will deploy overseas with them. As an example, the base and squadron I am assigned to I am subject to deploy for 4 months, once every 16 months. This does not mean I necessarily will deploy, just that I am "in the bucket". When I am not deploying, 95% of my time is spent in the clinic and meetings (with very nice hours I may add, roughly 40 hours/week with beeper call for one week once every 2 months), the 5% being flying with my airframe and squadron/shop inspections. This is suppose to be 50/50 between the clinic and the squadron, but this is not very feasible. My job in the clinic, although entertaining, is very monotonous (i.e. Colds, Low Back Pain, Ankle Sprains, Hypertension, High Cholesterol, etc.) and is filled with a lot of paperwork filling out MEBs, Waivers, Shop visits, etc. Like I said, all assignments will vary. If you work in a clinic with being fly tankers, bombers, AWACS, the environment is going to be much different than a fighter squadron. I can only comment on the prior, as that is where I work.

As for getting the base you want, this is highly unlikely with your first assignment without any prior military experience (and no HPSP time does no count). You can pretty much forget about highly sought after bases, such as Colorado. As an example, you are given 20 places to list on your "rank list". They then take that list roll it in a ball and wipe their a** with it. I could not even get 1 choice of my 20. There are few exceptions to this, occasionally somebody will get their #1-3 choice, but this is because they ranked the right place at the right time.

I find you situation extremely familar, as my wife and myself went through the same thing two years prior. I was very competitive applicant and was getting interviews at top notch Anesthesia civilian programs (i.e. Michigan, JHU, Penn, UPitt, UChicago, etc.), but the military did not give me a deferment, so here I am content to ride out my time as a Flight Surgeon for 4 years and then go into residency. Obviously, some things scare me like will I be able to find a residency despite beng removed from medical education for 4 years, possibility of a stop loss, and possibility of a recall through IRR. However, you have to roll with the punches and just move on. All Program directors look at GMO/FS applicants differently, so nobody can say with certainty that this tour makes applicants less or more competitive.

Hope all this helps.

Now here is a question for you: If your wife didn't want a military residency position, why did she rank it on her JSGME application?

 

[sethco]

By the way, assignmen to a base is now at a 3 year minimum and you are given the opportunity to stay there for 4 years to finish your commitment. If you don't like the base you are assignment you can either a) leave after 2 years for an overseas assignment (minimum overseas assignment is 1 year) or b) leave after 3 years to go to a different base where you will owe a minimum of 2 years (5 years total service minimum)

 

[PathOne]

While I agree that it's a strange employer who would want to retain employees against their will, that is apparently not a problem for the US Armed Forces.

Problem is, that your SO has entered into a legally binding contract. AND the military HAS in fact delivered on its part, by paying for med school, books etc. So it's hardly surprising, that they'd be willing to do anything to get the other party, your SO, to fulfill her part of the deal. That is, in fact, as in any other business dealing.

Furthermore, it should hardly be surprising, that she must serve where the AF needs her. How on earth could that come as a surprise? Where in the fine print does it say that she's ENTITLED to a deferment?

Sorry, but in the US contractual obligations must be honored, or consequences faced.

 

[8744]

I think you've misconstrued what I meant. I meant that the military would operate so much more efficiently if it had people that wanted to be there, or were ambivalent at best. Believe it or not, the military is not immune from the human dynamics that affect every single other organization on the planet. That is, if someone doesn't want to be there, it poisons the well for the undecided. Simple fact.

I'm saying there should be a mechanism for those that absolutely hate it, because it negatively colors the glasses of those who haven't yet made up their mind. I'm willing to bet some of those that hate their service elsewhere on these boards had a few attendings or fellow doctors that were miserable. We're criminalizing people that realize the best use of their lives is not the military; we're weakening the military by keeping these people in. It's the most basic of management theory.

And if that meant everyone jumped ship, maybe that would be a vehicle for change, as so many people have suggested. Everyone leaves tire tracks? Well, maybe that should suggest something. Does no-one find it paradoxical that in a country that professes freedom and self-determination, that its cudgel is one of the few markets that aren't free?

Bwaahaha Bhwahhaaaa harr harr bwaahaahahaa...

Stop! You're killing me!

 

[8744]

I think you've misconstrued what I meant. I meant that the military would operate so much more efficiently if it had people that wanted to be there, or were ambivalent at best. Believe it or not, the military is not immune from the human dynamics that affect every single other organization on the planet. That is, if someone doesn't want to be there, it poisons the well for the undecided. Simple fact.

I'm saying there should be a mechanism for those that absolutely hate it, because it negatively colors the glasses of those who haven't yet made up their mind. I'm willing to bet some of those that hate their service elsewhere on these boards had a few attendings or fellow doctors that were miserable. We're criminalizing people that realize the best use of their lives is not the military; we're weakening the military by keeping these people in. It's the most basic of management theory.

And if that meant everyone jumped ship, maybe that would be a vehicle for change, as so many people have suggested. Everyone leaves tire tracks? Well, maybe that should suggest something. Does no-one find it paradoxical that in a country that professes freedom and self-determination, that its cudgel is one of the few markets that aren't free?

Seriously though, part of military virtue is the ability to just suck it up. What you're suggesting is a form of blackmail, that is, the premise that we need to let people out or they will smear the name and reputation of the armed forces.

Now, it is true that in my day we occasionally discharged ****bags for the "good of the service," the key concept is that you have to be a real ****bag and most people have too much self-respect.

 

[West Side]

Flight surgeons may or may not be assigned to a squadron (If they are not they are assigned to a medical group). Deployments vary very widely depending on location, squadron, and aircraft. In addition, just because you are assigned to a squadron does not mean you will deploy overseas with them. As an example, the base and squadron I am assigned to I am subject to deploy for 4 months, once every 16 months. This does not mean I necessarily will deploy, just that I am "in the bucket". When I am not deploying, 95% of my time is spent in the clinic and meetings (with very nice hours I may add, roughly 40 hours/week with beeper call for one week once every 2 months), the 5% being flying with my airframe and squadron/shop inspections. This is suppose to be 50/50 between the clinic and the squadron, but this is not very feasible. My job in the clinic, although entertaining, is very monotonous (i.e. Colds, Low Back Pain, Ankle Sprains, Hypertension, High Cholesterol, etc.) and is filled with a lot of paperwork filling out MEBs, Waivers, Shop visits, etc. Like I said, all assignments will vary. If you work in a clinic with being fly tankers, bombers, AWACS, the environment is going to be much different than a fighter squadron. I can only comment on the prior, as that is where I work.

As for getting the base you want, this is highly unlikely with your first assignment without any prior military experience (and no HPSP time does no count). You can pretty much forget about highly sought after bases, such as Colorado. As an example, you are given 20 places to list on your "rank list". They then take that list roll it in a ball and wipe their a** with it. I could not even get 1 choice of my 20. There are few exceptions to this, occasionally somebody will get their #1-3 choice, but this is because they ranked the right place at the right time.

I find you situation extremely familar, as my wife and myself went through the same thing two years prior. I was very competitive applicant and was getting interviews at top notch Anesthesia civilian programs (i.e. Michigan, JHU, Penn, UPitt, UChicago, etc.), but the military did not give me a deferment, so here I am content to ride out my time as a Flight Surgeon for 4 years and then go into residency. Obviously, some things scare me like will I be able to find a residency despite beng removed from medical education for 4 years, possibility of a stop loss, and possibility of a recall through IRR. However, you have to roll with the punches and just move on. All Program directors look at GMO/FS applicants differently, so nobody can say with certainty that this tour makes applicants less or more competitive.

Hope all this helps.

Now here is a question for you: If your wife didn't want a military residency position, why did she rank it on her JSGME application?

SethCo and NavyFP, very helpful information indeed. The next question would be:

• Would anyone be nice enough to foward on the contact info for a detailer that wouldn't mind having a candid conversation with us. We're just interested in some honest opinions on the realism of getting an assignment in a particular part of the world, etc.

And quick answer to "why did she list a military residency on her JSGME", I was under the impression that she had to list a minimum number of choices. I.e., she couldn't just list "Deferrment" as her one and only option. Are we talking about the same form? The acronyms come too fast and loose for me to keep track of...or care.

 

[sethco]

SethCo and NavyFP, very helpful information indeed. The next question would be:

• Would anyone be nice enough to foward on the contact info for a detailer that wouldn't mind having a candid conversation with us. We're just interested in some honest opinions on the realism of getting an assignment in a particular part of the world, etc.

And quick answer to "why did she list a military residency on her JSGME", I was under the impression that she had to list a minimum number of choices. I.e., she couldn't just list "Deferrment" as her one and only option. Are we talking about the same form? The acronyms come too fast and loose for me to keep track of...or care.

Assuming your SO is Air Force, no problem... Col Parson 210-565-0687 or Major Harrison 210-565-0684...these were the people in charge of assignments for Flight Surgeons as of September (the last time I talked to them)...these people are very nice and helpful so please show them common military courtesy...they probably will not be able to give you the answer that you want though, as assignments are constantly in flux. What may be available one day, won't the next...by the way, as an aside, I knew that I did not want a military residency as I saw the one AF program to be inferior (case load wise, farming residents out to other programs, etc.), so I did not rank it. She certainly could have listed just a deferment on her application, but I think the fear of her not matching made her put down the miltary as a choice on her rank list. Am I correct? It is kind of like the civilian match, if you don't want to be at a program yet you still rank it, you have to be ready for the consequence of possibly ending up at that program. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I am sure you're SO realized this was a possibility. Did she rank the military program 1 or 2?...btw get use to acronyms, cause your SO will get loaded with them, if not already.

Hope this helps.

 

[West Side]

Assuming your SO is Air Force, no problem... Col Parson 210-565-0687 or Major Harrison 210-565-0684...these were the people in charge of assignments for Flight Surgeons as of September (the last time I talked to them)...these people are very nice and helpful so please show them common military courtesy...they probably will not be able to give you the answer that you want though, as assignments are constantly in flux. What may be available one day, won't the next...by the way, as an aside, I knew that I did not want a military residency as I saw the one AF program to be inferior (case load wise, farming residents out to other programs, etc.), so I did not rank it. She certainly could have listed just a deferment on her application, but I think the fear of her not matching made her put down the miltary as a choice on her rank list. Am I correct? It is kind of like the civilian match, if you don't want to be at a program yet you still rank it, you have to be ready for the consequence of possibly ending up at that program. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I am sure you're SO realized this was a possibility. Did she rank the military program 1 or 2?...btw get use to acronyms, cause your SO will get loaded with them, if not already.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the quick turnaround on those contacts! I'll be sure to give them a call first thing this week. My deep thanks for putting me in touch with the right people.

I won't be asking for the state of assignments right now, but more about the process, and how best to ensure all parties can find some aggregate greater sum of happiness.

Maybe that was her thinking, but I doubt it. After realizing her real passion was in a less competitive specialty, we were pretty sure she could have written her own ticket as far as civilian residencies (geographically, at least). As such, she would ONLY have ranked residencies she actually wanted. and wouldn't have listed any unwanted residency spots post-interview. That's my understanding of the issue, anyway. I honestly don't think she knew she could have listed only the deferment option, and nothing else (i.e., ranked deferment 1 out of 1).

 

[sethco]

However, please note to HPSPers not ranking a military program on the JSGME may negatively impact your application. One of the categories for evaluation is Motivation to becoming an officer (or someting like that). By not ranking a military program, it may be viewed as you have no interest in the military and you may be denied precious "points". Unlike the civilian match, psychology is HUGE and you have to think what the JSGME Board wants out of an application

 

[The White Coat Investor]

]

 

[backrow]

The number of spots one has to rank varies by service. Navy has no minimum which is the only one I am completely certain on. If I remember correctly I think it's five for Army and I have no idea on Air Force.

 

[VolatileNavyDoc]

For some clarity on this issue...

I have NEVER been asked to provide a DD-214 for anything. I have 4 of them dating back to 1989 when I first separated from active duty and entered the National Guard. I have never had to pull them out of the file they sit in. I seriously doubt the contents of those papers have ANY impact on employability. I have received three state medical licenses, 2 DEA numbers, a state controlled-substance certificate, a locums assignment, a private practice job, and privileges at 8 hospitals without ANYONE ever asking to see my discharge paperwork. This doesn't include the 5 or so jobs I held during undergrad. IMHO, the importance of the DD-214 is GROSSLY overestimated.

Do you have to provide a DD-214 if you apply to a civilian residency, which is a federally funded program? This could have some impact on the OP's decision. I have had to give my DD-214 twice for non-military reasons since being discharged in 1996. Once when I worked for SAIC (presumably b/c they have a lot of military contracts) and when receiving my GI Bill benefits. I don't remember if I had to have it for my VA loan (which is not that good of a deal these days), or federally funded school loans.

 

[West Side]

Do you have to provide a DD-214 if you apply to a civilian residency, which is a federally funded program? This could have some impact on the OP's decision. I have had to give my DD-214 twice for non-military reasons since being discharged in 1996. Once when I worked for SAIC (presumably b/c they have a lot of military contracts) and when receiving my GI Bill benefits. I don't remember if I had to have it for my VA loan (which is not that good of a deal these days), or federally funded school loans.

I'm confident we wouldn't really need to rely on military benefits if we could get out. Sure, maybe sounds mighty arrogant to think a rainy day won't come, but in my preliminary estimation, the military financial perks aren't really all that great, and are relatively easily duplicated, if not bettered, with some familiarity with capital markets. When (not if) that rainy day comes, playing one's cards right would be neck and neck with military benefits.

 

[g293]

Do you have to provide a DD-214 if you apply to a civilian residency, which is a federally funded program? This could have some impact on the OP's decision. I have had to give my DD-214 twice for non-military reasons since being discharged in 1996. Once when I worked for SAIC (presumably b/c they have a lot of military contracts) and when receiving my GI Bill benefits. I don't remember if I had to have it for my VA loan (which is not that good of a deal these days), or federally funded school loans.

No, no reason to show DD 214 for your civilian residency. I didn't have to anyway.

 

[ieatpizza]

This thread is so funny! This would make a heart wrenching story for a cable news channel (sarcastic). BTW, I registered just to make that comment.

 

[resxn]

This thread is so funny! This would make a heart wrenching story for a cable news channel (sarcastic). BTW, I registered just to make that comment.

And was it worth it?

 

[kwiggo]

I don't know what you are trying to prove when you discard the fact that she needs to honor her commitment by saying that "Honor is bilateral." The Air Force's side of the commitment is paying for her education, stipend, books, supplies, health insurance, etc. The contract is straightforward and written in plain english. Her side of the commitment is applying to the military match and serving her time. If she failed to research the adequacy of Air Force training programs prior to signing on the dotted line, then she failed to do her homework beforehand. If she thought she was likely to get a deferment from the Air Force during a war when scholarship applications are down and the military medical centers need housestaff, again, she failed to do her homework.

More importantly, our country is at war right now with thousands of American men and women overseas in harm's way. These people need doctors. I can think of many worse ways to spend a few years of your life than taking care of our uniformed service members. Rather than trying to find a way out, why not put more effort into seeing how you both can make it work? Your long-winded diatribe comes off as capricious and self-righteous, as though you fancy yourself David versus the Goliath that is military medicine. Take some time to think it through more thoroughly. I have known military physicians who are miserable and counting the days until they can leave the sevice, as well as doctors who are genuinely happy or at least motivated to come to work each day and do their job to the best of their ability.

 

[sethco]

And was it worth it?

 

[West Side]

I don't know what you are trying to prove when you discard the fact that she needs to honor her commitment by saying that "Honor is bilateral." The Air Force's side of the commitment is paying for her education, stipend, books, supplies, health insurance, etc. The contract is straightforward and written in plain english. Her side of the commitment is applying to the military match and serving her time. If she failed to research the adequacy of Air Force training programs prior to signing on the dotted line, then she failed to do her homework beforehand. If she thought she was likely to get a deferment from the Air Force during a war when scholarship applications are down and the military medical centers need housestaff, again, she failed to do her homework.

More importantly, our country is at war right now with thousands of American men and women overseas in harm's way. These people need doctors. I can think of many worse ways to spend a few years of your life than taking care of our uniformed service members. Rather than trying to find a way out, why not put more effort into seeing how you both can make it work? Your long-winded diatribe comes off as capricious and self-righteous, as though you fancy yourself David versus the Goliath that is military medicine. Take some time to think it through more thoroughly. I have known military physicians who are miserable and counting the days until they can leave the sevice, as well as doctors who are genuinely happy or at least motivated to come to work each day and do their job to the best of their ability.

Good god! Did you get past the first post, or was this some misguided attempt by a recruiter to try and defuse this thread with the last word?

Stripped down to its barest essentials, sure, I suspect the military uphelp their end of their contractual obligation in paying for her stipend and tuition. However, we all know that's not all they "promise". They apparently consider their WORD different than their letter, inasmuch as in the process of recruitment, they, at various times, made verbal representations that:

• She'd have access top quality facilities and training
• Her commitment would be shorter than it actually is
• that getting a civilian deferment would be no problem whatsoever

None of those, of course, is true. Sure, she's a medical student, but I disagree that medical students are so deaf, dumb, and blind that they're unable to observe the morass that practicing physicians have to put up with in military facilities and systems.

The very, VERY short version is that we've come to a conclusion. Both independantly and as a unit, her being in this is was a terrible decision profesisionally and personally. If that's not a reason to try and get out, I don't know what is. If you really think I'm contributing more, as a civilian, by not achiving my highest and best use, then you're taking the most narrow and self-serving view of what a citizen's worth to a nation is. For her, we should be aiming to produce the absolute best care for this country possible (and note that this country is not ONLY made up of military personnel). Personally, I have very little interest in moving to Buttfu*k, Kansas, and as such, I'd choose to at least investigate the spectrum of our options before beginning any sort of planning process. She feels the same way. Fair enough?

While contractually, a legally successful argument could be made that the military may of fulfilled their end of the bargain, in practice and ethically, they have not. As such, I'm comfortable taking the view that we can play as fast and loose the rules as your garden variety recruiter. A simple search on "recruiter" will yield your evidence that she was not their only victim, although perhaps one of the few willing to see if there's a door #2 or #3.

 

[ieatpizza]

...If you really think I'm contributing more, as a civilian, by not achiving my highest and best use, then you're taking the most narrow and self-serving view of what a citizen's worth to a nation is. For her, we should be aiming to produce the absolute best care for this country possible (and note that this country is not ONLY made up of military personnel). Personally, I have very little interest in moving to Buttfu*k, Kansas, and as such, I'd choose to at least investigate the spectrum of our options before beginning any sort of planning process. She feels the same way. Fair enough?

Easy now--I happen to live in Buttfu*k, Kansas, but other than that I agree that everyone should get the best training they can and, if they so wish, serve this great nation in prestigious academic centers and/or by making loads of money. Providing the absolute best care for patients, too (I almost forgot). And move to cool cities like New York or San Francisco. OMG, I love NYC! I also love homeless people and am virtuous.

And was it worth it?

So worth it.

 

[AF M4]

Mmm...I hate the "she didn't do her homework" line. I signed on the HPSP at the very beginning of my 2nd year of med school. Before I did I talked via email with several HPSP students who had graduated from my school, a buddy in my class who was on the HPSP already, read through all the provided information and the AF web site along with half a dozen others pertaining to the HPSP, not to mention talks with AF recruiting personnel. Unfortunately, I didn't come across this website until long after I'd signed the contract. I thought I'd done my homework, and I had. Then they went and changed their policies to make it impossible for me to get a residency. All my homework became irrelevant because the AF changed the playing field. Is this my fault? Maybe, for being too trusting. It's not a mistake I'll make again, and I have no problem with anyone who wants to try and find a way out of their contract.

I'd like to see some of the promises recruiters are giving out these days. I gave my presentation on the current state of AF medicine earlier this week, discussing the current match situation in detail. When the potential HPSPers at the meeting asked the recruiter if he knew anything else about this during Q&A, he said it wasn't he didn't know and it wasn't his department. And to be quite honest, why would he want to know?

 

[West Side]

Mmm...I hate the "she didn't do her homework" line. I signed on the HPSP at the very beginning of my 2nd year of med school. Before I did I talked via email with several HPSP students who had graduated from my school, a buddy in my class who was on the HPSP already, read through all the provided information and the AF web site along with half a dozen others pertaining to the HPSP, not to mention talks with AF recruiting personnel. Unfortunately, I didn't come across this website until long after I'd signed the contract. I thought I'd done my homework, and I had. Then they went and changed their policies to make it impossible for me to get a residency. All my homework became irrelevant because the AF changed the playing field. Is this my fault? Maybe, for being too trusting. It's not a mistake I'll make again, and I have no problem with anyone who wants to try and find a way out of their contract.

I'd like to see some of the promises recruiters are giving out these days. I gave my presentation on the current state of AF medicine earlier this week, discussing the current match situation in detail. When the potential HPSPers at the meeting asked the recruiter if he knew anything else about this during Q&A, he said it wasn't he didn't know and it wasn't his department. And to be quite honest, why would he want to know?

I'll agree that if you do your homework, you're still probably only getting half the story. I'll freely admit I think she could have done more due diligence before signing, but, again, we should be judged not on how we treat the strongest, but how we treat our weakest and most vulnerable. The military preys upon the poorest, least educated, and those with the fewest options for its enlisted ranks. Similarly, it feeds its professional specialist ranks with those extremely ill-equipped to make decisions. I think, at the very least, some sort of watchdog obudsman position should be created, to provide fair and independant counsel to 21 year olds who've never had a job before. We provide government sponsored career counselling, why not this?

Because it would hurt recruitment, that's why. The hard sell continues.

 

[IgD]

The military preys upon the poorest, least educated, and those with the fewest options for its enlisted ranks. Similarly, it feeds its professional specialist ranks with those extremely ill-equipped to make decisions...

I empathize with your position but I don't agree with what your saying. Your SigO is a medical student! She is the cream of the crop in terms of intelligence and interpersonal skills. I don't think it is fair to say that she was ill-equipped to join military medicine.

 

[West Side]

I empathize with your position but I don't agree with what your saying. Your SigO is a medical student! She is the cream of the crop in terms of intelligence and interpersonal skills. I don't think it is fair to say that she was ill-equipped to join military medicine.

I think you're missing my point. Sure, she was towards the top of her college class, and remains towards the top of her medical class. Intellectually, she's a great fit, as are I'm sure the majority of people who can get the stats to go to med school.

I'm talking about the fact that the military attempts to prey on people who lack the life experience to be savvy about contract terms, career and life planning, and, if nothing else, financial analysis. In essence, kids fresh from the college meat grinder have the LEAST well honed BS detectors. It is my experience that there's very little correlation between raw intelligence and "street smarts". On this point, I think you'll agree. Most college kids are incubated to such a degree, and are frequently so busy in one vein, that they are unable to gain the type of experience that would be requisite to make a decision like HPSP.

And I don't know where you're getting the correllation between interpersonal skills and medical students. It's usually a dead heat between your average med student and a moray eel when it comes to interpersonal skills! 😀

 

[resxn]

Frankly, I think this thread is well past the "should you or shouldn't you." I don't think it matters since you both have made up your minds.

What I'm interested in hearing is how the process goes now and what are the fruits of your labors--did you just lose cash and still get stuck in BF Kansas, or did you pull off the ultimate Houdini, the Holy Grail of those on the same crusade.

I anxiously await updates, not the repeated kicking of a horse long since dead.

 

[West Side]

Frankly, I think this thread is well past the "should you or shouldn't you." I don't think it matters since you both have made up your minds.

What I'm interested in hearing is how the process goes now and what are the fruits of your labors--did you just lose cash and still get stuck in BF Kansas, or did you pull off the ultimate Houdini, the Holy Grail of those on the same crusade.

I anxiously await updates, not the repeated kicking of a horse long since dead.

Hey, I'm with you. I have no idea why this one came back.

As you might expect, the process has not been as simple as a "yes/no" answer. It seems to be two steps forward, 1-3 steps back at varying points. Suffice to say, progress is being made, but nothing I'm interested in sharing at this juncture. I will venture that perception and reality are frequently divorced, both negatively and positively from our perspective.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm talking about the fact that the military attempts to prey on people who lack the life experience to be savvy about contract terms, career and life planning, and, if nothing else, financial analysis.

Along those lines, should we exempt college students who get saddled with credit card debt during college? I seem to remember applying for an 18% Discover card for the two liter Coke and bag of dorritos.

When you're 18 you're considered mature enough to sign up for the military. You should still be mature enough by the time you're 22.

 

[West Side]

Along those lines, should we exempt college students who get saddled with credit card debt during college? I seem to remember applying for an 18% Discover card for the two liter Coke and bag of dorritos.

When you're 18 you're considered mature enough to sign up for the military. You should still be mature enough by the time you're 22.

Well, if that Discover card charged a 15% premium on any purchase, went out of its way to ruin your credit rating, and demagnetized your other credit cards, I think you'd be hollering mighty loudly for some sort of consumer protection, hmm?

I'm not disputing one's legal fitness to sign a contract. I am questioning the fitness of your average fresh college graduate in wading through recruiter rubbish in the context of a career decision. If military medicine was a car, lemon laws would protect you. If it was a washing machine, Ralph Nader would play ombudsman. Why don't we hold the military accountable?

 

[met19]

Along those lines, should we exempt college students who get saddled with credit card debt during college? I seem to remember applying for an 18% Discover card for the two liter Coke and bag of dorritos.

When you're 18 you're considered mature enough to sign up for the military. You should still be mature enough by the time you're 22.

I don't think we should compare credit card debt to the military.
1) You can get rid of debt thru bankruptcy. Can't get rid of your HPSP contract.
2)this comparision is BS and disgusting. Your 18 card was generally clear and you can usually find advice on what to do. I find that recruiters mislead, or don't know the truth. Student signs and is stuck. Very few students know what they are getting into. A college student signing for a card has more resources (fin aid office, student affairs, relatives, etc.).

 

[met19]

so to the OP:

what was the outcome?