[Serious] Does your level of physical attractiveness influence your chances of getting accepted?

[MoDiddy]

---

Members do not see this ad.

You don't think it's possible for an overweight person to be attractive?

Nah. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though....

 

[Crayola227]

I like the Alana Davis cover of Ani DeFranco's "32 Flavors"
it's like my theme song

squint your eyes and look closer
I'm not between you and your ambition
I am a poster girl with no poster
I am thirty-two flavors and then some

and god help you if you are an ugly girl
course too pretty is also your doom
cause everyone harbors a secret hatred
for the prettiest girl in the room

and god help you if you are a phoenix
and you dare to rise up from the ash
a thousand eyes will smolder with jealousy
while you are just flying past

 

[Cotterpin]

To your first question, yes if she was big enough that I would consider her "chubby" she would not be attractive to me.. And a different era/ culture is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about 21st century U.S. here. Obviously there are exceptions where different people have different tastes, but for the vast majority of people overweight = less attractive. This isn't anything new..

Still not "objective." Sorry. There are plenty of people in the 21st century United States who would think an overweight Halle Berry is hot.

 

[Weirdy]

I'm ugly as sin and I got in.

I dunno man, Nichijou has some pretty fair looking characters.

 

[hurtem&healem]

You don't think it's possible for an overweight person to be attractive?

First of all, it was a joke re every med school's holistic admissions selection. And since jokes are always funnier when you explain them...

Let's say you have a cGPA of 3.5. It's possible for you to get into a top 10 med school, but you better have crushed the MCAT, have crazy ECs, and destroy at the interview. And even then, the odds are stacked against you. You pickin up what I'm layin down?

 

[Mansamusa]

https://m.reddit.com/r/medicalschoo...ose_weight_before_residency/?ref=search_posts

 

[bananafish94]

I got in, so it can't have that big an influence.

 

[Cotterpin]

https://m.reddit.com/r/medicalschoo...ose_weight_before_residency/?ref=search_posts

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about with weight. Who cares if a person is attractive? That's irrelevant. But if a person is overweight, will adcoms be subconsciously judging them and making all kinds assumptions about their character, e.g. they're lazy, unhealthy, etc.

 

[NotYou20]

Nah. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though....

Beerholder. And in that case @Cotterpin has a point...

 

[wanderingorion]

Alternatively, I pursued being a male gigolo in Miami because I couldn't cut it in Medicine!

Alternatively, I pursued a male gigolo in Miami, and needed medicine

 

[carpediem22]

I think that while physical appearance does play a role -- especially when it comes to grooming / looking pulled together and professional -- I think that level of extroversion matters more in the interview process. Extroverted candidates who are at ease in an interview situation will usually come across more confident and likable than candidates who are introverted and struggle to make a good case for themselves during the interview, so long as the extroverted person is reasonably intelligent (which is safe to assume if he/she has made it to a medical school interview). Anecdotally, it seems to me that attractive people tend to be more extroverted on average, so I would guess that might bias any conclusion you could make about attractiveness alone.

 

[flyingeagle]

Absolutely. Otherwise, an overweight physician will have to enjoy telling their patients "Do as I say, not as I do" considering most of what they advise their patients to do, they cannot do themselves.

If there were two physicians in the world, one of which was fairly overweight and the other one which was healthy, which should you choose?

 

[Monkey.King]

I consider myself to be fairly handsome. I'd rate myself a 8/10. Will a male modeling career increase my chances at med school?

If there were two physicians in the world, one of which was fairly overweight and the other one which was healthy, which should you choose?

And I'd choose the the one with better scores and stats. And if they were the same, I'd let them decide for themselves, as long as the overweight one isn't going to perform surgery on me with sausage fingers.

 

[flyingeagle]

I consider myself to be fairly handsome. I'd rate myself a 8/10. Will a male modeling career increase my chances at med school?



And I'd choose the the one with better scores and stats. And if they were the same, I'd let them decide for themselves, as long as the overweight one isn't going to perform surgery on me with sausage fingers.

The answer is to pick the overweight one because he is the doctor of the healthy doctor, meaning he is giving good treatment, advice, etc. The healthy doctor is the doctor of the overweight one and isn't keeping the overweight one in good shape.

 

[ChrisMack390]

The correct answer to this is yes. Any adcom saying no is just unaware of their subconscious biases, or they are a saint and are unaware of the subconscious biases of those around them.

 

[Mansamusa]

The answer is to pick the overweight one because he is the doctor of the healthy doctor, meaning he is giving good treatment, advice, etc. The healthy doctor is the doctor of the overweight one and isn't keeping the overweight one in good shape.

When I'm a doctor, I'm going to beat my obese patients with a stick every time they eat. That way they develop a conditioned fear of food.


That was sarcasm. Physicians don't have control over their patients' weight. They can only ensure the patient has the knowledge and tools needed to manage their health and it's up to the patient to use them

(As for choosing a doctor for myself, I would actually lean more towards a chubby- not hugely obese- doctor than someone skinny. As someone who was formerly obese, I would feel less judged/more comfortable with a chubby doctor. And physicians tend to be type A and skinny people are probably more likely to be type A. I'm not a huge fan of type A people, so I would choose a chubby doctor who may be more likely to be chill)

 

[Cotterpin]

Absolutely. Otherwise, an overweight physician will have to enjoy telling their patients "Do as I say, not as I do" considering most of what they advise their patients to do, they cannot do themselves.

I've been to see doctors of all shapes and sizes and one of my favorite doctors that I ever worked with was an overweight ER doc. He loved his job and he was great at it. We always talk about how patients like doctors that are similar to them because they know that the doctor understands what they're going through and has empathy. Instead of feeling judged by a super fit doctor, maybe an overweight patient would feel more comfortable with a doctor who knows the struggle first hand.

I don't think altruism or selfless righteousness even exists.

This says a lot about you.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Why don't you address the rest of that paragraph and have a real discussion instead of dogmatically dismissing it.

It's not a personal thing, it's a human characteristic. It says as much about me as it does you.

 

[Cotterpin]

Why don't you address the rest of that paragraph and have a real discussion instead of dogmatically dismissing it.

It's not a personal thing, it's a human characteristic. It says as much about me as it does you

I'm sorry... you want me to address the fact that you don't think altruism exists? That's on you, buddy. If you don't think humans are ever actually altruistic, then all that says is that you are not altruistic. Don't tell the adcoms.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

I'm sorry... you want me to address the fact that you don't think altruism exists? That's on you, buddy. If you don't think humans are ever actually altruistic, then all that says is that you are not altruistic. Don't tell the adcoms.

Again thank you for circumventing any real discussion.

 

[Mansamusa]

I've never seen an overweight resident, medical student, or fellow. I'm sure they exist but in the form of a unicorn with love handles. Once a doctor gets out on his/her own they can get as overweight as they like and not get kicked out of their practice for it. There are plenty of swole belly MDs. Doesn't mean the patients think nothing of it. The fact of the matter is implicit bias does exist despite any amount of feigned altruism or righteousness. It's a characteristic of our brains to find patterns and make associations.

I don't think altruism or selfless righteousness even exists. We wouldn't do anything if we got no result from it. Otherwise we would have no reason to continue or cease a behavior. It could be that we want that warm feeling more than we wanted our money that we gave to charity, or any number of examples.

So yeah, we're flawed and superficial things impact us based on our own instinctual reasoning. Anyone that says it would not affect their decision making at all needs to take some psych and neuroscience classes.

Fair or not, that's the breaks.

There are plenty of overweight med students and residents.....there is some implicit bias, but still plenty of overweight med students and residents. They ain't no unicorn either. You can search resident rosters for them. I would feel like an @ss if I started posting pictures of large residents (who may even be on this site) to prove something that you could easily see for yourself

 

[Cotterpin]

Again thank you for circumventing any real discussion.

What. Why don't you take your own advice and take some psych and neuroscience classes and then get back to me on whether or not you think altruism exists. 🙄

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

@Mansamusa you're right that was way off base. What I should have said is just that they are fairly uncommon if they are very overweight. It says nothing about them as a clinician; I just don't typically see it too much from my experience.

 

[flyingeagle]

This is probably the most flawed reasoning I have ever seen. A physician has complete influence over his patient's condition and absolutely no responsibility of his own condition - according to your logic.

lol it was a joke...sorry if it wasn't clear

 

[Cotterpin]

Humans are never disinterested in their own fate. Why would doctors kill themselves if they were willing to selflessly make sacrifices without consequence? Doesn't mean you can't make sacrifices to help others and enjoy doing so.

Harm to others outweighs harm to self in moral decision making

Edit: I just noticed this last sentence in your post. You think that if a person enjoys helping others, then that's not altruism? 😕

 

[Weirdy]

Wow this thread got way off track lol

 

[salemstein]

Back on track: I think younger adcoms are more swayed by looks, esp those of the opposite sex. To older people (most of the time adcoms fit this category), I feel like younger people start looking more or less the same. Weird theory but look at it from this perspective. I remember back in 1st grade people looked really different. Even if you were like a year older, I could immediately tell the difference. Now when I look at first graders, my mind doesnt have the tools to really differentiate that well anymore (much less if they're attractive or not). heck if you put a first grader next to a second grader, I would definitely have trouble telling who's older without a very close look.

 

[Astra]

No that's not true altruism IMO. Why? Because humans always have reasons for doing or not doing things. These reasons need not be overt but they are there subconsciously or not. Altruism involves a disregard for the self which I opine is not entirely possible.

So when a person jumps infront of a car to attempt to save a random child's life when no one is watching, what is the motive?

Back on track: I think younger adcoms are more swayed by looks, esp those of the opposite sex. To older people (most of the time adcoms fit this category), I feel like younger people start looking more or less the same. Weird theory but look at it from this perspective. I remember back in 1st grade people looked really different. Even if you were like a year older, I could immediately tell the difference. Now when I look at first graders, my mind doesnt have the tools to really differentiate that well anymore (much less if they're attractive or not). heck if you put a first grader next to a second grader, I would definitely have trouble telling who's older without a very close look.

I wonder if it is due to social media. We tend to have easier established norms for children and adults. Dress a certain way, get a certain hair cut etc.

 

[Cotterpin]

No that's not true altruism IMO. Why? Because humans always have reasons for doing or not doing things. These reasons need not be overt but they are there subconsciously or not. Altruism involves a disregard for the self which I opine is not entirely possible.

Merriam-Webster defines altruism like this:

1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

So that doesn't mean altruism is disregarding the self, so much as it is a proactive regard for others without worrying about getting something out of it. You don't have to harm yourself to be altruistic. That's silly. If the reason for altruism is that we are designed through genetics and social cues to look out for one another and to feel good about doing it, that's still altruism. It exists. It is a real part of human behavior.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Merriam-Webster defines altruism like this:



So that doesn't mean altruism is disregarding the self, so much as it is a proactive regard for others without worrying about getting something out of it. You don't have to harm yourself to be altruistic. That's silly. If the reason for altruism is that we are designed through genetics and social cues to look out for one another and to feel good about doing it, that's still altruism. It exists. It is a real part of human behavior.

I totally understand and respect what you're saying. It's just a moot point as of now because we are arguing different definitions or interpretations.

 

[Cotterpin]

I totally understand and respect what you're saying. It's just a moot point as of now because we are arguing different definitions or interpretations.

Well... I'm arguing for the actual definition and what studies have said about it.

 

[Crayola227]

sounds like we all acknowledge there is a bias for looks that starts affecting you from the cradle on up, it's cumulative, and most likely played more of a role in getting you in front of an adcom interviewer than it's gonna play for you that particular day unless you look like the elephant man

I think it does more in the days leading up than it does interview day, which isn't to say bias isn't still working that day, but at that point I think lots of other seemingly nebulous factors are at greater work at that point (body language, extraversion, charm, "click" between random interviewee and interviewer, foot in mouth syndrome, nerves, etc)

 

[confidentandgood]

Altruism involves a disregard for the self which I opine is not entirely possible.

This thread is getting Hobbesian. I am liking it.

 

[Cotterpin]

The definition being an unselfish regard for others.

And I'm arguing that humans can never be totally unselfish, which is why I said true altruism did not exist period. Not that you can't enjoy helping others because you like it.

Again:

Harm to others outweighs harm to self in moral decision making

I don't get why you're insisting on unselfishness must be so complete that not even subconscious or genetic drives towards altruism aren't somehow selfish to you. I hold doors for strangers every day and it does absolutely nothing for me except waste a few seconds of my time. I get no particular happiness or reward out of doing it. I just do it for them so they won't have to reopen the door themselves. Why not, you know? But according to you, there's some nugget of selfish motivation somewhere in there, so it's not altruistic. Whatever.

 

[confidentandgood]

All legitimate power must be based on the power of the people. This power is also based on knowledge as the two reinforce one another in a circular process; therefore the more we understand about true altruism or a lack thereof allows us to delve deeper into the psyche and gain a true respect for the human condition, empowering us only to our disdain as we cannot imagine to exist in such a planet of mindlessness and omniscient panopticism.

😕

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

😕

I know.

 

[Mad Jack]

Scientifiy, yes. More attractive people benefit from what is known as the halo effect, in which their follies, mistakes, and shortcomings are viewed in a less negative light because of their attractiveness.

Gotta make it to the interview for that to matter though.

 

[confidentandgood]

I know.

You could take the notion of self-interest in humans and relate it back to their biological origins (i.e. unicellular to multicellular, millions of years of evolution, and the influence of natural selection). I always found this interesting. Answers a lot of questions about our (usually inadvertent) bias based on appearance.

 

[hurtem&healem]

Scientifiy, yes. More attractive people benefit from what is known as the halo effect, in which their follies, mistakes, and shortcomings are viewed in a less negative light because of their attractiveness.

Gotta make it to the interview for that to matter though.

The halo effect yielded the attractive person better LORs, as well as, potentially, access to better ECs, the built up confidence to argue for better grades, more successful arguments for better grades, etc.


The biggest thing people denying the influence of looks seem to be doing is ascribing an all-or-nothingness to it. Yes, on interview day professionalism has bigger role than attractiveness. No, being a dime will not compensate for other giant holes in your app. That wasn't the question. The question is will it influence your chances, to which the studies in other settings suggest YES. Without a doubt indirectly, and, to a much smaller degree, it continues to exert some influence on interview day itself.

 

[Mad Jack]

The halo effect yielded the attractive person better LORs, as well as, potentially, access to better ECs, the built up confidence to argue for better grades, more successful arguments for better grades, etc.


The biggest thing people denying the influence of looks seem to be doing is ascribing an all-or-nothingness to it. Yes, on interview day professionalism has bigger role than attractiveness. No, being a dime will not compensate for other giant holes in your app. That wasn't the question. The question is will it influence your chances, to which the studies in other settings suggest YES. Without a doubt indirectly, and, to a much smaller degree, it continues to exert some influence on interview day itself.

Yeah, but looks can't nail you a 515+ or an A in your orgo test. Yeah, they help. But being naturally intelligent is probably the best advantage one can have, all things considered, looks are really just a small factor in the grand scheme of things.

 

[hurtem&healem]

Yeah, but looks can't nail you a 515+ or an A in your orgo test. Yeah, they help. But being naturally intelligent is probably the best advantage one can have, all things considered, looks are really just a small factor in the grand scheme of things.

Being a hard worker is probably even more important, but that's still beside the point.

 

[Mad Jack]

Being a hard worker is probably even more important, but that's still beside the point.

I mean, it's just kind of a stupid thing to ask. Does it help? Sure. But so does having a million dollars in the bank, or well connected parents, or a million other things.

 

[mistafab]

My vote : no.

Anyone can reach the threshold of looking decent if they are groomed well. Could looks help 'intangibles?' Maybe. I doubt there is much of an effect once you reach a certain threshold of looking decent/well groomed. This threshold is probably reachable by anyone.