serious drug use anyone?

[jochi1543]

Come on jochi, I'm sure you might not have stopped completely at a stop sign at least once in your life... so you must be a criminal also right?

I'm sure you are aware that there are subsections for traffic violations, felonies, and misdemeanors, and there are reasons why some violations will land you with a $150 fine and others will land you with 25 to life. Drug possession will qualify you for up to 5 years in jail in most states (I'm talking about personal posession, not 20 lbs heroin). If drug possession and use is "no big deal," why does the state feel the need to put people in jail for such a long term for simple possession? Also, why does it happen to land some people under the bridge? An educated person should make the correct decision, which is to avoid those types of things. I've spent lots of time attending 12-step meetings recently (NA and AA) because a friend passed away from addiction, and it's amazing how people who have overcome addictions have views that many of the more sheltered types would consider to be politically incorrect - most importantly, those who have successfully become sober acknowledge that addiction is first and foremost selfish and that to overcome it successfully, one must stop focusing on him- or herself so much.

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[jochi1543]

I mentioned earlier that I have decided not to do it anymore if for no other reason than not wanting to get in trouble...that being said; I chose NOT to do it many times when I knew it just wasn't a good time- Like if I had a lot to do with school or family. When I DID choose to binge I was usually out of town for the weekend with a friend or two...so yes, I did make my decisions regarding the wellbeing of others, and will continue to do so.

thanks for the input

Yeah, just draw a line with those "friends," or lose them altogether. They are detrimental to your goals of sobriety and to your future career. For example, I've always made it very clear to everyone that I don't drink and drive, and after a group of "friends" would NOT leave me alone for half an hour begging me to have several drinks "because it would not be a big deal, you are not driving far," I've chosen to stop going to parties with them, because they were being a negative influence during those times.

 

[Noeljan]

I'm sure you are aware that there are subsections for traffic violations, felonies, and misdemeanors, and there are reasons why some violations will land you with a $150 fine and others will land you with 25 to life. Drug possession will qualify you for up to 5 years in jail in most states (I'm talking about personal posession, not 20 lbs heroin). If drug possession and use is "no big deal," why does the state feel the need to put people in jail for such a long term for simple possession? Also, why does it happen to land some people under the bridge? An educated person should make the correct decision, which is to avoid those types of things. I've spent lots of time attending 12-step meetings recently (NA and AA) because a friend passed away from addiction, and it's amazing how people who have overcome addictions have views that many of the more sheltered types would consider to be politically incorrect - most importantly, those who have successfully become sober acknowledge that addiction is first and foremost selfish and that to overcome it successfully, one must stop focusing on him- or herself so much.

Hey jochi,
I agree with what you are saying, but don't you think if someone has come to these realizations they should be able to have a second chance? A lot of people run into trouble or problems in their life, I think the most important thing is what they do about it. On the other hand, since I am personally without any addiction, I don't know how hard it is really to stay off things (like if it's impossible). I don't want someone under the influence of anything being a physician, but I also feel if someone is living a decent, hardworking substance free life, I don't have a problem if he/she had a few bumpy times in their past life.

 

[spicedmanna]

I can buy that. But then the issue is not functional additiction vs. messed up addiction but a user and an addict. If someone is an addict, by definition, they can not function? So if someone does drug (or drugs) but it does not interfere with other parts of their life, they are by definition not an addict?

Well, I think it's more clear to say that there is no truly qualifying distinction. Addiction is addiction; adding a qualifier to it doesn't make it okay, or different than what it is. The question then becomes, "What is addiction?" There are numerous definitions, of course, but the one I like best was coined by Gay Hendricks, that "addictions are anything you lie about."

Let's get more specific. Besides the obvious illegal nature of some of the substances, or uses, involved in substance addiction, would you be okay with telling everyone the complete truth about your substance habits? Would you openly stand by them and not lie to yourself or others about them?

Here's an arbitrary (and made up) example of being completely honest: "Hey, I'm Dr. Blah-blah-blah, and I go home and pop five Oxycodone pills every few hours that were prescribed to me for an earlier ailment, but I really don't need them anymore and there is no real indication for me to continue. I still pop them anyway because they make me feel better and they numb my inconvenient feelings. I never really got over the death of my wife, and I refuse to seek the appropriate help. The pills are easier. This way, I convince myself that I need to continue to pop my pills because I am under the illusion that it helps me function better. I like living under that illusion. Oh, and I seem to be chemically dependent on it as well. Nobody has gotten hurt so far, though, and people can't tell the difference. However, I really still feel sad and angry underneath and it continues to eat me up; the only difference now is that I'm taking pills instead of giving myself the love I really want and need. I think I have a dependence problem; it's partially psychological and partially chemical."

Would someone really be that honest all the time about his or her use of a given substance if he or she were in that situation? No, they would lie about it to themselves or others, even when confronted.

The paradox is that if someone were to be that honest about it, then they admit they have a problem and this is key to resolving their pattern and it provides a clear choice point. It is a step in taking responsibility. There is still the problem of the psychological and chemical dependence, but I think the majority of folks at this level of honesty would begin to seek help. You have to be honest first; it's part of the addictive pattern to lie. The bottom line is that addictions need to be addressed and treated, not qualified.

 

[Doc Henry]

wow...you guys seriously put a lot of time and energy into your posts. I'm too lazy to do that, so I'll just say-

I don't really care about recreation drug use although the addiction is worrying. I wouldn't mind a physician who had abused drugs, in fact it would be nice to know my physician could relate to a variety of people...drug abusers and premeds (thought the two are not mutually exclusive)

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm sure you are aware that there are subsections for traffic violations, felonies, and misdemeanors, and there are reasons why some violations will land you with a $150 fine and others will land you with 25 to life.

Correct. But all are crimes. This is why folks were balking at your "criminal" talk.

Drug possession will qualify you for up to 5 years in jail in most states (I'm talking about personal posession, not 20 lbs heroin).

What?!? That's not true. Someone's talking out of their okole...

In some states, possession of marijuana is a ticketable offence. And recreational possession of most drugs is a misdemeanor punishable by no more than 1 year of jailtime. Federal guidelines for up to 25 grams of cocaine is 10-16 months. Federal guidelines for possession of up to about 9 ounces of marijuana is 0-6 months.

Not condoning drug use here, but to say that "drug possession" comes with a 5 year sentence in "most states" isn't right. And luckily, after many years of state prosecuters following federal guidelines, we've moved to the point that most recreational possession charges for folks without records are treated with treatment rather than jailtime.

 

[apnea]

Who cares? I wouldn't care if my physician was on drugs or had abused them in the past if they can perform alright. What kind of question is this? Do you think a patient is going to come in and say "Ok, Doc. Tell me, have you done cocaine?" If they did, I hope my physician wouldn't say "Oh, yeah, I used to abuse it all the time" or "yep, still on it. Good stuff." I mean this question is LAME. I think you are full of S**t anyway. You sound like a liberal if any of this is really true and liberalism = not cool.

go prey upon the pre-dent board
why are you even still coming here? are you tweaking right now??

 

[RollSkins]

I also usually try to stay out of these arguments here on SDN but I have to say out of every drug thread I have seen this one has the least amout of "your going to be a horrible doctor if you have ever tried any illegal substance" types of response (I'm paraphrasing here) These responses usually come from kids who have never had any experience with drugs but refreshingly this thread at least has some people who have actually done drugs and in a sense have "seen both sides of the argument"

That being said I have throughout high school and college I have tried a quite a few types of drugs (marijuana, coke, shrooms, acid, and several prescription drugs). The harder drugs I really only did "experimentally" probably only once or maybe twice. Then about year into my science classes after I decided really wanted to become a doctor I quit doing everything, including drinking (at the time I wasn't really doing anything other than pot anyway). But that was a little extreme and with all the hard classes I was taking I decided that I needed a drink ever now and then. But thats really neither here nor there. Anyway my decision to quit doing drugs really had nothing to do with the fact that they inhibited my performance. Actually I don't beleive that pot does affect your performace. One quick example: Some of my friends came over one night and we ended up smoking until like 3:00 in the morning and I had an organic chemistry test at 8:00. I was still somewhat high when I took the test and ended up getting the highest grade, in a class of 80, on that test I guess it could have been luck but who knows. But I digress. The real driving reason that I stoped smoking and doing whatever other drugs was the fact that they weren't going to take me where I wanted to go in life and they most likely were going to inhibit it. I didn't want to become one of those kids who screws around partying their way through college and then either ends up getting arrested or gets done with college and can't get a job worth anything because they screwed around too much in college.

As far as someone who has previous been addicted to hard drugs I know plenty of those people. One of my good friends used to sell Meth. Yeah I know thats pretty hardcore. It wasn't even because he needed the money. His parents are freaking loaded. At the time he was at UC San Diego and just got addicted to the stuff and it was a downward spiral from there. Basically he dropped out and started selling the stuff. Luckliy he was able to quit and amazingly he didn't even need rehab to do it. Fast Forward to now and he is a clean cut guy that you would never guess used to sell Meth. He just got accepted to medical school. He even told the schools about it. A big part of the reason he got in is because he was able show that he had come through that experience and was now clean and devoted to becoming a doctor. So basically what I am trying to say is that it is possible for people to overcome addictions and to become successful. I personally wouldn't hold the fact that he used to be a drug dealer when he was a kid against him when I was looking at what doctor to choose. I don't see how something that happened that long ago cold possibly affect his performance or 'moral' character now.

Sorry that might have been my longest post ever but I have been studying all day for the MCAT and I needed to get my SDN 'fix'

 

[McPoyle]

usually, I find these threads super offensive as they usually consist of ignorant comments regarding the topic and one's ability to change and become a good physician. This thread however was a pleasant surprise. Not any pointing fingers saying "You will suck at whatever you do because you have some skeletons in your closet." It seems like a good debate about working with a physician who is abusing drugs.

A little background before I go further: I am a bit older, late twenties, and am a sophmore finishing my undergrad. I also am a recovering drug addict. I started using cocaine when I was fifteen and began smoking crack daily when I was seventeen. Anyhow, I went to treatment and have been sober from drugs and alcohol for a little under six years.

It seems like some people got offended about some statements regarding the criminality of addiction.... well, the fact was for me that I was a criminal when I was using. I did all of the typical criminal behaviors (stealing, lying, B&E, check fraud, etc...) luckily I never had any legal consequences to deal with. This criminal aspect just goes hand in hand with addiction (I have found). Ya it sux, but it's nothing to be offended about or argue about. Its just a fact. When addicts are using, we do whatever is neccessary to stay medicated, and usualy we can't do this without bending or breaking numerous laws.

With that said, would I be comfortable being treated medically by a practicing drug addict? Not a frekin chance! And I don't feel bad at all for saying this. We need to see consequences of our use, something to motivate change in our lives. If a physician (just like many other professions) is under the influence at work, or battling an addiction, work is not the place for it. Luckily we have a society where it is very easy for us to get help if/when the need presents itself. For me this was a blessing, I can't even begin to express how grateful I am to have had the chance to make the neccessary changes.

And to the OP.... man stay away from the blow!!! It truly does sneak up on you. Drugs in general do. It still blows my mind how quickly I went from the occasional bump, to the occasional bender, to full blown $200/day crack habit. Spare your self the literal hell of addiction and stop using now, its a dangerous game to play.

Anyhow, good thread, interesting to read the responses.

 

[bostonpmed]

fakemember I sent you a PM

 

[Noeljan]

usually, I find these threads super offensive as they usually consist of ignorant comments regarding the topic and one's ability to change and become a good physician. This thread however was a pleasant surprise. Not any pointing fingers saying "You will suck at whatever you do because you have some skeletons in your closet." It seems like a good debate about working with a physician who is abusing drugs.

A little background before I go further: I am a bit older, late twenties, and am a sophmore finishing my undergrad. I also am a recovering drug addict. I started using cocaine when I was fifteen and began smoking crack daily when I was seventeen. Anyhow, I went to treatment and have been sober from drugs and alcohol for a little under six years.

It seems like some people got offended about some statements regarding the criminality of addiction.... well, the fact was for me that I was a criminal when I was using. I did all of the typical criminal behaviors (stealing, lying, B&E, check fraud, etc...) luckily I never had any legal consequences to deal with. This criminal aspect just goes hand in hand with addiction (I have found). Ya it sux, but it's nothing to be offended about or argue about. Its just a fact. When addicts are using, we do whatever is neccessary to stay medicated, and usualy we can't do this without bending or breaking numerous laws.

With that said, would I be comfortable being treated medically by a practicing drug addict? Not a frekin chance! And I don't feel bad at all for saying this. We need to see consequences of our use, something to motivate change in our lives. If a physician (just like many other professions) is under the influence at work, or battling an addiction, work is not the place for it. Luckily we have a society where it is very easy for us to get help if/when the need presents itself. For me this was a blessing, I can't even begin to express how grateful I am to have had the chance to make the neccessary changes.

And to the OP.... man stay away from the blow!!! It truly does sneak up on you. Drugs in general do. It still blows my mind how quickly I went from the occasional bump, to the occasional bender, to full blown $200/day crack habit. Spare your self the literal hell of addiction and stop using now, its a dangerous game to play.

Anyhow, good thread, interesting to read the responses.

hey erik
it sounds like you are on the right track. I wish you well
not to hijack the thread and this is a serious question (don't laugh), but what does it smell like? I have a neighbor that seems to be smoking something shady. PM me if you don't want to post here.

 

[BluePhoenix]

Would you also avoid doctors who smoke? What about doctors who drink?

Yes. I would. I think the idea of lighting a stick filled with toxic chemicals to inhale the chemical filled smoke, knowing all the consequences that it can have, has got to be the most idiotic idea out there. Given a choice, I would not go to a doctor that smoked. I feel the same way about doctors that are alcoholics. These are behaviors that THEY HAVE CHOSEN for themselves, I disagree with them and would avoid doctors that don't.

Making a distinction between dangerous illegal drugs and dangerous legal drugs gets to be splitting hairs. And what about obese doctors? Where do you stop the behavioral judgement calls? Just curious.

Obesity is not the same as drugs or alcohol. It's not necessarily something that they can control. While I believe that there is some resonsibility towards a person's weight, it's difficult for us to know their particular reason for being overweight. It could be the result of medicine they're on or a thyroid condition. Unless I knew for sure that they were simply lazy and massive eaters with no underlying biological condition, I don't think you should judge people based on their weight.

Ah, yes. Not "get help" but "get caught". Very indicative. You remind me of these folks I used to see that carried signs hoping homosexuals die of AIDS.

I said "get caught" because I don't want these people practicing medicine, particularly those who don't see a problem with it. Any sort of drug use that is not taken for a condition as prescribed is illegal. As a doctor, you have the power to prescribe medicines, that is not something I want an addict or "recreational user" to have. I would rather not have people thinking that doctors regularly precribe medicines for fun and how no problem using cocaine every now and because then they think it's ok, drugs aren't so bad, I can pop that pill to feel better even if I don't need it. That is NOT the attitude doctors should have about medicine.

That is hardly the same as saying I hope homosexuals die of AIDS.

 

[BluePhoenix]

Unfortunately, I've lost too many young people from my life. The reasons for their deaths were: 3 in single car accidents (no drugs or alcohol involved), 1 drowning, 1 to CF, 1 struck by lightning, 1 to cancer, 1 heroin overdose, and 1 shooting (while working in the ER where I worked). Along these lines while working in the ER I saw a lot of young people die for various unfair reasons. To say that doing drugs is like Russian Roulette is sort of true, but isn't doing anything potentially hazardous? If we're talking about odds, then getting in a car is more like Russian Roulette than trying drugs. Or just working as a doctor, you'll put yourself at risk of needle sticks and other infection.

Yes, but there are risks in life that you can't avoid...cancer, lightning, etc...and then there are ones that you can...drugs, smoking. We choose the risks we're willing to take. Obviously you can avoid ever sitting in a car or being near a road and chances of you dying in an accident are essentially zero, but we risk it because we want a life outside our house. In general, we don't stand in the middle of an open field waving around a giant metal rod in the middle of a lightning storm because it's a bad risk...and we'd look pretty odd. However, people still choose to smoke and choose to do drugs knowing that it's a pretty dumb idea and you never know when it's going to come smack you in the ass. Maybe you'll get some bad drugs, maybe you'll die, maybe you'll become addicted...maybe it's a risk some people think is acceptable...I don't.

 

[Doc Henry]

there are a few threads going on right now that reminded me of this old one. I thought I'd bump it and see if anyone had anything new to contribute.

Also, there have been a few people who have been clean for quite a while and was wondering what people though about discussing addiction recovery with adcoms?

 

[Puffle]

As a slightly related aside, a recent study came out regarding physicians who are obese or overweight. (I don't have it in front of me, so I can't quote percentages, just trends.)These doctors where less likely to diagnose themselves or their patients as overweight and obese, even if they meet clinical criteria, and were less likely to talk about lifestyle modification, such as diet and exercise, pharmacotherapy, or surgical options with their patients than doctors who were of normal weight.

I think it would be interesting to see a studying following these same trends amongst doctors with a prior history of substance abuse or dependence. Think of how many parents say that they feel like hypocrites telling their kids not to smoke marijuana because they did it themselves? Would the same hold true, or would former addicts be more apt a picking up on subtle cues of abuse and intervene. As a psych resident, I've actually seen both play out; docs downplaying use saying "kids will be kids" and recovered alcoholics able to do a much better job empathizing than a "virgin" like me.

 

[ANNIE8]

I dont think this has been brought up yet, but what about permanent physiological damage that drugs cause. Does this not come with the territory of addiction to anything? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a very not good thing for someone who wants to practice medicine for many reasons.

 

[slicknick5k]

"There's something you may not know about me Joe Rogan. I SMOKE ROCKS!!!!"


AND NO I WOULDN'T WANT MY PHYSICIAN DOING DRUGS. Surgeons in particular can't have anything adversely affecting their focus and dexterity. Imagine a neurosurgeon with heroine chills, f*cking shaking and stuff. Crack fiends can't stand still for a minute.

 

[west nile]

I wouldn't care if my physician had drug problems in the past. I WOULD care if I found out they were still regularly doing drugs. Obviously if I don't know and it doesn't affect their function, then I don't know. But if I found out for some reason, that would probably make me find a new physician. (I wouldn't switch physicians if I believed the physician was sincerely trying to quit)

my thoughts exactly.

 

[Julietcf14]

Okay I marked the wrong one. I thought the first one said "I have NEVER abused drugs"... I guess we should make a pole regarding whether or not people read the question completely before picking an answer.

Take one off of the first one...

 

[DoctorPhud]

Ignoring the questions of legality, ethics and comfort with drug-taking physicians for a moment, the medical environment ought to be considered.

Hospital environments in particular provide many opportunities for access to substances that are highly addictive.

Applicants to medical professions might want to take the time to consider whether that might be the best place for them to be spending a significant and stressful part of their lives. For the addicts that I have known, the temptation does raise its ugly head even after years of being clean, especially when the stress is high, sleep is little and judgement goes down the toilet. It would be all too easy to pick up that blister pack or filled syringe from the cart in an unattended room.

Many hospitals are migrating to automated asset tracking systems linked with their EMR systems to keep a full track of what was given to the patient. It's a hop, skip and jump to find out when narcotics go missing... Moreover, many now regularly require physicians to undergo regular random drug screenings, to try and protect against problems that may arise.

If you are wrestling with addiction, it may not be the best place to be, and it will very easy to get caught and to lose your job and career. I'm not trying to beat on anyone, but I've known enough people who have been recovering from substance abuse, and enough who've lost their careers, homes and families to not wish that on anyone, especially after we're all trying so hard just to get in the door. It would be a real shame.

 

[Maxprime]

Sounds like most people haven't heard stories of anesthesiologists and drug abuse . . .

I've had a primary that abused prescription pain killers. I know because he told me while prescribing me pain killers - he fessed up to made sure I understood the ease of addiction. I didn't switch because he was a good doctor, had a problem, and was honest about it. He also had a decade of credibility with me, if it was my first time in there, I probably would have been weirded out.

 

[Meatwad]

Okay I marked the wrong one. I thought the first one said "I have NEVER abused drugs"... I guess we should make a pole regarding whether or not people read the question completely before picking an answer.

Take one off of the first one...

... or a poll that deals with spelling "poll," correctly.

 

[Maxprime]

Along what DoctorPhud was saying, watch a documentary, "Thin" on HBO about eating disorders. One of the patients is a nurse and her knowledge of and access to drugs makes her problem so much worse.

 

[pakbabydoll]

I have never even seen any drugs including weed and I have never even took a sip of Alcohol EVER!!!

 

[Maxprime]

Out of curiosity, if you were treated properly by a doc under the influence (and found out) - could you sue?

 

[DoctorPhud]

Out of curiosity, if you were treated properly by a doc under the influence (and found out) - could you sue?

The lawyers would have a field day if something went wrong with your treatment...