Serious question, Why are you going to dental schools above 400K?

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Well if they're both underestimations, I would pick the one making 470 over the one making 390.

To your comment about competing, of course the ones at the top can do both (I was between the 2 and could easily have went med if I wanted). But the ones at the TIP TOP would be stronger in medicine in general. I am from a pretty academically rigorous district and know some really smart cookies in both dental and med, who probably each could be in the top 25% at both dent and med. However the smart med students I know were pushed since they were elementary schoolers to study their butts off, consistently had tutors for 10+ years, and had SAT scores of like 2300+. Their parents put constant pressure, and they went to prestigious undergrads and then to strong med schools. Parents that are extremely helicopter or strict never push their kids towards dental- it's usually an individual choice since its reputation is seen as more "relaxed" and "less prestigious". None of my predental friends were ever like this, including those with DAT scores of 25+ and 4.0s. One is also at the top of his class in dental school. I must say that dents often underestimate how type A some of the top med students are. I had one doctor I shadowed tell me his son was trying to go into a 7 year program (3 + 4 years md), but when he went to interview, he saw a bunch of kids whose parents were trying to prep them for this program since they were in 6th grade (the dad was talking to other parents there). And take a look at the premed forums vs the predental ones if you want to get high blood pressure and see people with 4.0s and 517+s freak out about chances or ask if they have enough publications to get into a top med school.

And GPA may not measure intelligence, but it sure as hell measures hard work or consistency or "type A"-ness of the applicant. And don't wanna keep up this MD vs dent thing, but the MCAT is harder than the DAT, they require more service than dental, and research is required if you wanna land a good med school. If you think that a class of 100 with an average of 3.75 is not gonna be GENERALLY harder working or "more intelligent" than a class with 3.55-3.6, idk what to say. I can say a no name medical school with a 3.6 average is generally smarter than harvard med school students and completely ignore GPA and MCAT averages, but that would be kind of foolish of me.

I see, if you are going to go the route of hard-work and type-A personalities, than I would agree on average that medical school attracts more of those types for sure.

I also think that, if we are being honest, most of the people going into dental school that could have chosen either are somewhat lazy, I know I am.

In college I graduated in 2.5 years, which a lot of people think was because I'm hard working and motivated. It wasn't, I just rushed through to get it over with so I could relax. College was easier than high school imo, because you could slack of as much as you wanted and still do well if you could study for tests.

When I thought about going to school for basically another 8 years (I know residency isn't school, but might as well be right) I was like, there's no way. The people who agree to do that have to be dedicated and hard working, I mean same goes for dent, but to a higher extent probably medicine like you said.

If you're going into medicine you're either a hardworker, or an idiot imo. I only say an idiot because if you go into medical school simply because it was what you were told to do, and that's all you've ever considered doing, and the only thing you have ever worked towards, than you sold yourself completely short and are making a mistake. I know too many people like this, many of whom are in med school rn.

Going back on track, I think you're right and that's another reason dentistry is better to me (if it's an affordable school) I don't want to be surrounded by type A, neurotic people all the time, I want to relax amongst my other lazy POS.(I'm trying to pass with as low grades as possible )

Sorry for the non-sequitur parts, like I mentioned earlier I'm on my phone and just typing as opposed to thinking clearly.

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[SnozzBerry]

Yeah, i am very happy i am a Texas resident, if i didn't live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, or Alabama, I would not have even considered dentistry. Even with the additional years Medical school would have been a much better choice imo.

I guess i would probably apply to dental school if i only had a bio degree and like a 3.1, but there are still other careers more worthwhile.

I would rather be a hygienist or a nurse than have 400k+ in loans. I feel like the ROI is higher and quicker

No no no. If you have a 3.1 and a bio degree you go podiatry. They'd probably give you a scholarship if you did decent on the MCAT. And their decent is like medical schools bad.

 

[738177]

Well if they're both underestimations, I would pick the one making 470 over the one making 390.

To your comment about competing, of course the ones at the top can do both (I was between the 2 and could easily have went med if I wanted). But the ones at the TIP TOP would be stronger in medicine in general. I am from a pretty academically rigorous district and know some really smart cookies in both dental and med, who probably each could be in the top 25% at both dent and med. However the smart med students I know were pushed since they were elementary schoolers to study their butts off, consistently had tutors for 10+ years, and had SAT scores of like 2300+. Their parents put constant pressure, and they went to prestigious undergrads and then to strong med schools. Parents that are extremely helicopter or strict never push their kids towards dental- it's usually an individual choice since its reputation is seen as more "relaxed" and "less prestigious". None of my predental friends were ever like this, including those with DAT scores of 25+ and 4.0s. One is also at the top of his class in dental school. I must say that dents often underestimate how type A some of the top med students are. I had one doctor I shadowed tell me his son was trying to go into a 7 year program (3 + 4 years md), but when he went to interview, he saw a bunch of kids whose parents were trying to prep them for this program since they were in 6th grade (the dad was talking to other parents there). And take a look at the premed forums vs the predental ones if you want to get high blood pressure and see people with 4.0s and 517+s freak out about chances or ask if they have enough publications to get into a top med school.

And GPA may not measure intelligence, but it sure as hell measures hard work or consistency or "type A"-ness of the applicant. And don't wanna keep up this MD vs dent thing, but the MCAT is harder than the DAT, they require more service than dental, and research is required if you wanna land a good med school. If you think that a class of 100 with an average of 3.75 is not gonna be GENERALLY harder working or "more intelligent" than a class with 3.55-3.6, idk what to say. I can say a no name medical school with a 3.6 average is generally smarter than harvard med school students and completely ignore GPA and MCAT averages, but that would be kind of foolish of me.

In terms of admissions, the main difference really is the MCAT. It's a much more "critical thinking/natural smartness" test rather than a memorization dump like the DAT, making it harder to score well. I'd also agree that being a top med student would be harder than being a top dental student. The med students gunning for Ophtamology/Plastics/Derm/Neurosurg are not the one's you wanna hang with in a party (given they show up at all).

 

[Medin2017]

I see, if you are going to go the route of hard-work and type-A personalities, than I would agree on average that medical school attracts more of those types for sure.

I also think that, if we are being honest, most of the people going into dental school that could have chosen either are somewhat lazy, I know I am.

In college I graduated in 2.5 years, which a lot of people think was because I'm hard working and motivated. It wasn't, I just rushed through to get it over with so I could relax. College was easier than high school imo, because you could slack of as much as you wanted and still do well if you could study for tests.

When I thought about going to school for basically another 8 years (I know residency isn't school, but might as well be right) I was like, there's no way. The people who agree to do that have to be dedicated and hard working, I mean same goes for dent, but to a higher extent probably medicine like you said.

If you're going into medicine you're either a hardworker, or an idiot imo. I only say an idiot because if you go into medical school simply because it was what you were told to do, and that's all you've ever considered doing, and the only thing you have ever worked towards, than you sold yourself completely short and are making a mistake. I know too many people like this, many of whom are in med school rn.

Going back on track, I think you're right and that's another reason dentistry is better to me (if it's an affordable school) I don't want to be surrounded by type A, neurotic people all the time, I want to relax amongst my other lazy POS.(I'm trying to pass with as low grades as possible )

Sorry for the non-sequitur parts, like I mentioned earlier I'm on my phone and just typing as opposed to thinking clearly.

I don't want to make a philosophical discussion or anything, but in regards to following what you're told, I don't think that makes one an idiot. Or else a bunch of genius people in this world whose parents influenced them by introducing them to a religion very early on in their lives or even to avoid religion are idiots too. Sometimes it's not a "MOM SAID THIS SO DO IT". It's slow and steady influence at a very young age, which can change the thought process of the kids themselves.

Also sorry to bring up the md vs dent thing, but I believe in both schools, it's not rocket science (as seen on md forums and dent forums and word of mouth from students). It's a buttload of info. Sometimes a "type A" person will outwork someone smarter than them. And if med has a generally higher % of these put the nose to the grindstone type people, you can see how it would be slightly harder to compete in that sense.

I am sure you're a smart dude and will do well in school, and I am by no means bashing dental students or thinking I'm gonna be top. I have decent stats but think I'm a fool all the time, so I'll work my butt off in school to keep options open (who knows- maybe I'll hate omfs for some reason or find I don't want to pursue a residency or would rather be a jack of all trades).

 

[Medin2017]

In terms of admissions, the main difference really is the MCAT. It's a much more "critical thinking/natural smartness" test rather than a memorization dump like the DAT, making it harder to score well. I'd also agree that being a top med student would be harder than being a top dental student. The med students gunning for Ophtamology/Plastics/Derm/Neurosurg are not the one's you wanna hang with in a party (given they show up at all).

Yea in general. Of course there are some geniuses who can balance all that, but from my POV, these people sacrificed early on to get the foundation to absorb more info at a faster rate.

Top students from both respective fields are smart and hard working, it's just I feel the med ones go a bit more beyond, whether it be setting foundations earlier on or working like masochists.

 

[738177]

No no no. If you have a 3.1 and a bio degree you go podiatry. They'd probably give you a scholarship if you did decent on the MCAT. And their decent is like medical schools bad.

.

 

[Medin2017]

Who cares about MDs............

Not many but someone said MD would be nicer to go into than dent and I somewhat started a discussion about it.

 

[customx]

Factoring in interest rates at 6% a 300k loan @ 15 year repayment is a measly 2500$ a month. This is hardly crippling when it comes to furthering your own practice or raising your income. Not to mention you can easily refinance the rate when you are out of school

Only 12 schools in the country project their class of 2021 to graduate with $300k or less in loans. Half of the schools will cost $400k or more, and this is where the debt starts to become crippling. At Columbia you can expect to pay back $4,400 a month using your terms. On an income of $130k, you'll make about $90k after taxes, with $40k to live on after loan payments. How can anyone expect to save up to purchase a practice when they are pocketing $3,300 a month?

 

[schmoob]

If practicing in New York State or Delaware, it will be even higher because of the continued interest accumulation due to the PG requirement.

 

[wengerout]

No. You would likely see more international students, or lower admissions statistics. You'd be surprised how many students do not take out loans.

Oh I'm sure more international students could fill some of the gap, and that some students do pay in cash. However in the long run I do believe schools would be forced to reevaluate the seemingly endless rising cost.


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[wengerout]

Does OMFS beat out every medical residency though?

I would agree that earnings wise it's probably in the top. Along with anesthesiologists ~ 400k, invasive cardiologist ~450-500k, and derm ~400k.

Derm has very similar hours to dentistry as well. I would choose derm over OMFS but that's probably it, so if you say it's the best specialty I would say you might be right.

But what about the difficulty of getting in.

I don't know the stats on this, but how many people get into an OMFS program from each dental school? Some have none, I think the highest has like 6-8 right? (Someone please correct me). But usually you have to be like top-5 in your class to have a confident chance.

In medical school there's a lot more P/F and your step scores play a big role. Even if you aren't in the top-10 you've got a good chance I'd you have everything else necessary, and there are so many top level specialties. You have more of a chance of becoming one of those in med school, than of becoming an OMFS.

Getting derm is harder than getting OMFS IMHO. Especially if you go to one of the dental schools that pump out OMFS like clock work. Add to this that at the end of the day of you don't get OMFS you're still a dentist vs. in medicine where you'll have to settle for some speciality that might have terrible hours or only "average pay" in the context of this conversation.


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[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Getting derm is harder than getting OMFS IMHO. Especially if you go to one of the dental schools that pump out OMFS like clock work. Add to this that at the end of the day of you don't get OMFS you're still a dentist vs. in medicine where you'll have to settle for some speciality that might have terrible hours or only "average pay" in the context of this conversation.


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I actually thought about making mentioning that, the individual specialties may be more competitive (Derm, Orthopedics, Anes) but getting into any of the ROAD specialties is probably easier as a whole than just OMFS, agree or disagree?

And yeah that is definitely another downside to medicine. Like imagine working hard for 4 years and being stuck with a specialty you despise?

 

[wengerout]

Only 12 schools in the country project their class of 2021 to graduate with $300k or less in loans. Half of the schools will cost $400k or more, and this is where the debt starts to become crippling. At Columbia you can expect to pay back $4,400 a month using your terms. On an income of $130k, you'll make about $90k after taxes, with $40k to live on after loan payments. How can anyone expect to save up to purchase a practice when they are pocketing $3,300 a month?

I believe another poster who was a dentist utilized PAYE to start a practice and raise his income and only then did he really attack his dental school debt.


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[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

It's probably harder to get into ROAD than OMFS

You think so? How many students per class would you estimate go into ROAD, vs OMFS?

 

[ThirdMolarz]

Especially if you go to one of the dental schools that pump out OMFS like clock work.


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Where do I apply

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Well for one the med students are generally more industrious and more intelligent than dental students so it will be more challenging to compete with those guys. Then you have the fact that class sizes are larger in med schools. Plus you have step 1 which is a make or break exam. Sure, dent students have the cbse, but it's not the same. It's already hard enough to get into medicine let alone get into some of the top specialties. I can't imagine how hard it is to get into plastics or pediatric surgery.

Alright bro, i'm kind of tired of talking about this, so okay

 

[wengerout]

You think so? How many students per class would you estimate go into ROAD, vs OMFS?

I decided to use Columbia to compare.

Med school match rates - Match Day | College of Physicians and Surgeons

Dental school match rates - Statistics

# of ROAD matches: 30/169 = 17.7%

# of OMFS matches: 9/82 = 11.0% (I should mention though, the class before in 2015 18.2% matched to OMFS. In the most recent class while official numbers aren't up, 18 people or 22% matched with OMFS. The rate fluctuates with the people who choose OMFS vs Ortho).

Of course, if we include the Columbia dental students who choose Ortho as well, the rate surpasses the ROAD numbers.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Huh?

We already kind of went over the whole medicine vs dental thing earlier, maybe it wasn't specifically about ROAD vs OMFS, but Medin already talked about the whole "Hard-working, industrial medical school students thing

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Only 12 schools in the country project their class of 2021 to graduate with $300k or less in loans. Half of the schools will cost $400k or more, and this is where the debt starts to become crippling. At Columbia you can expect to pay back $4,400 a month using your terms. On an income of $130k, you'll make about $90k after taxes, with $40k to live on after loan payments. How can anyone expect to save up to purchase a practice when they are pocketing $3,300 a month?

I never said I was taking out the full COA in loans bud. Parental help with living costs, Scholarships, investments, self employment, and my sneaker collection will make it manageable

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I believe another poster who was a dentist utilized PAYE to start a practice and raise his income and only then did he really attack his dental school debt.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Another example of how this debt is far from "crippling"

 

[customx]

I believe another poster who was a dentist utilized PAYE to start a practice and raise his income and only then did he really attack his dental school debt.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Even with PAYE and a 15 year payment plan, you're looking at a total bill of $800k after interest on a $525k loan to attend Columbia. I'm not trying to scare anyone with these numbers, but I believe it's vital that pre-dents know what kind of financial situation they are putting themselves into by going to dental school. The loans can be paid off, but it will still take financial discipline, dedication and sacrificing short term gratification after graduation.

 

[customx]

I never said I was taking out the full COA in loans bud. Parental help with living costs, Scholarships, investments, self employment, and my sneaker collection will make it manageable

And I never directed the post directly at you. I was merely pointing out that fact that not many students will be graduating with $300k or less in loans. The numbers speak for themselves, and not everyone can manage to work, earn scholarships or live with their parents to offset costs.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

And I never directed the post directly at you. I was merely pointing out that fact that not many students will be graduating with $300k or less in loans. The numbers speak for themselves, and not everyone can manage to work, earn scholarships or live with their parents to offset costs.

Nice

 

[I-hate-alginate]

This thread is one for the books!

 

[738177]

To get the thread back on topic, i'm curious how many pre-dents these days are planning to open up their own practice...
Going to one of the private schools, especially if you're a non-trad, seems like a career that's destined for working as an associate dentist only.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

To get the thread back on topic, i'm curious how many pre-dents these days are planning to open up their own practice...
Going to one of the private schools, especially if you're a non-trad, seems like a career that's destined for working as an associate dentist only.

I'm curious to how many have actually calculated the price of opening up a practice, as well as everything else going on at that point in our lives. Everything we read or everyone we talk to says "being an owner is the way to go!! Get the $$$"

What we don't often see are the owners who open up and things look promising but they never get rolling, or the costs of having an office, a house, student loans and also a nicer car (I know I want one myself). Or dealing with staff.

I can admit that I have some disillusions about opening up a practice and how easy it will be with my "low" debt, but once I see that 500-700k price tag for the office I bet I'll snap back to reality.

Especially since buying a practice is not a one cost thing. Tech gets old? Gotta refresh the whole office, water pipe broke? Gotta get on that. Employee gets fired and wants unemployment? You've got to pay that. Things just get complicated.
Honestly some people are just money makers and some aren't. There are associates on DT making 250-350 without all the troubles of being an owner. Some owners have been making 120 for 10 years. It just depends on the individual I think.

All of that said, I definitely want to own and everyone I know wants to own as soon as possible except for 1 woman who wants to have children relatively soon.

 

[Polkadotfan]

I applied OOS (TX!), but I was also hoping for a the HPSP. If I didn't have any way then I told my husband I would either try again or switch to med. I know, not a popular opinion and not easy, but in TX there are many more schools to apply to. This was because I did the math and could not fathom having >250 k of debt (on top of UG which I do have some) and the family that I do. Just no way on top of accruing interest, health insurance, and cost of living with a kid.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Probably not the place to post about it, but I've also thought about working in a prison haha. Seems like a sweet gig, +loan repayment. I just think the story would be super cool.

 

[schmoob]

I'm curious to how many have actually calculated the price of opening up a practice, as well as everything else going on at that point in our lives. Everything we read or everyone we talk to says "being an owner is the way to go!! Get the $$$"

What we don't often see are the owners who open up and things look promising but they never get rolling, or the costs of having an office, a house, student loans and also a nicer car (I know I want one myself). Or dealing with staff.

I can admit that I have some disillusions about opening up a practice and how easy it will be with my "low" debt, but once I see that 500-700k price tag for the office I bet I'll snap back to reality.

Especially since buying a practice is not a one cost thing. Tech gets old? Gotta refresh the whole office, water pipe broke? Gotta get on that. Employee gets fired and wants unemployment? You've got to pay that.

You don't pay a former employees unemployment.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

You don't pay a former employees unemployment.

Sorry, you're right but if an employee files for unemployment your unemployment tax rate will go up, so you are paying for it, just not immediately.

 

[blablabla1]

Out of curiosity, at what cutoff do you guys think dental school doesn't become worth it anymore?

 

[I-hate-alginate]

Out of curiosity, at what cutoff do you guys think dental school doesn't become worth it anymore?

Right at this moment. We all are gambling on ourselves.

 

[Steins;Gate]

There are associates on DT making 250-350 without all the troubles of being an owner. Some owners have been making 120 for 10 years

There are many advantages to ownership beyond higher compensation which drive people to own even if they make the same as they would as an associate (which most of the time they don't). The pros outweigh the cons greatly in ownership.

 

[wengerout]

Even with PAYE and a 15 year payment plan, you're looking at a total bill of $800k after interest on a $525k loan to attend Columbia. I'm not trying to scare anyone with these numbers, but I believe it's vital that pre-dents know what kind of financial situation they are putting themselves into by going to dental school. The loans can be paid off, but it will still take financial discipline, dedication and sacrificing short term gratification after graduation.

Wait how did you get from $525k if that is before interest? Even after living cost CDM cost $430k before interest. With interest were around 500k yes, but you would only utilize PAYE until you can afford to pay your practice loan + school loans + your normal living cost. This should still allow for you to have paid the entirety of your dental school loans before you are 40, leaving you with an income that surpasses the majority of people in the Unite States.

I fully understand being financially responsible, believe me, however I stop short of the doom and gloom sometimes portrayed on SDN. You said it yourself, it requires sacrifice at the end of the day.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

There are many advantages to ownership beyond higher compensation which drive people to own even if they make the same as they would as an associate (which most of the time they don't). The pros outweigh the cons greatly in ownership.

For sure, I guess since it is a money thread I was assuming the comment on ownership was purely about compensation and paying back loans. You're definitely right there are other benefits.

 

[wengerout]

I'm curious to how many have actually calculated the price of opening up a practice, as well as everything else going on at that point in our lives. Everything we read or everyone we talk to says "being an owner is the way to go!! Get the $$$"

What we don't often see are the owners who open up and things look promising but they never get rolling, or the costs of having an office, a house, student loans and also a nicer car (I know I want one myself). Or dealing with staff.

I can admit that I have some disillusions about opening up a practice and how easy it will be with my "low" debt, but once I see that 500-700k price tag for the office I bet I'll snap back to reality.

Especially since buying a practice is not a one cost thing. Tech gets old? Gotta refresh the whole office, water pipe broke? Gotta get on that. Employee gets fired and wants unemployment? You've got to pay that. Things just get complicated.
Honestly some people are just money makers and some aren't. There are associates on DT making 250-350 without all the troubles of being an owner. Some owners have been making 120 for 10 years. It just depends on the individual I think.

All of that said, I definitely want to own and everyone I know wants to own as soon as possible except for 1 woman who wants to have children relatively soon.

I have. I admit it will mean that in my late 20's/early 30's I will have to hold off on say buying a house for example. Still, I think the long term gains outweigh the short term loss.

In regards to the owners who didn't do well you can't avoid risk forever. Still, dental practices have one of the best rates of success in new small businesses.

You are right though, opening a practice is not for everyone. If I wasn't going to start my own practice that would affect my outlook in terms of the ROI in dentistry.

 

[wengerout]

Out of curiosity, at what cutoff do you guys think dental school doesn't become worth it anymore?

As long as it can be repaid within say 10 years or so, and you can still make 200-300k+ as an owner, it would take a pretty big number for me to say it's not worth it.

The way I see it, most of the people in my major are starting at 30-50k or so. By the time they 35-40 they might make 70k if they are lucky. I don't think they will be living that lavish of a lifestyle compared to the lifestyle I would live as a dentist in debt for those 10 years until it is paid. This is just my opinion though.

 

[Namelessking]

As long as it can be repaid within say 10 years or so, and you can still make 200-300k+ as an owner, it would take a pretty big number for me to say it's not worth it.

The way I see it, most of the people in my major are starting at 30-50k or so. By the time they 35-40 they might make 70k if they are lucky. I don't think they will be living that lavish of a lifestyle compared to the lifestyle I would live as a dentist in debt for those 10 years until it is paid. This is just my opinion though.

What you say is true for the most part but there are definitely some careers out there that have high job security and involve way less schooling/stress/loans than dental school. And these jobs will very easily throw you into the six-figure mark (after a few years of experience) without all the loans of dental school. Granted, after a dentist's loans are paid off, they are pretty much some of the highest earners in the country and they will and deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

 

[Namelessking]

Out of curiosity, at what cutoff do you guys think dental school doesn't become worth it anymore?

I think that's a question only each individual can answer. But I think for me 350k would be the soft limit where I would pretty much go in with a positive attitude. 400k+ warrants some serious introspection.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

What you say is true for the most part but there are definitely some careers out there that have high job security and involve way less schooling/stress/loans than dental school. And these jobs will very easily throw you into the six-figure mark (after a few years of experience) without all the loans of dental school. Granted, after a dentist's loans are paid off, they are pretty much some of the highest earners in the country and they will and deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Woah there Yhorm. Those 6 figure salaries for small loan amounts aren't a dime a dozen

 

[Namelessking]

Woah there Yhorm. Those 6 figure salaries for small loan amounts aren't a dime a dozen

Another dark souls veteran I see. And you're right. Definitely not run of the mill jobs.