Seriously, SHAME on UCSF for promoting an UNPAID full-time postdoctoral program

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PHD12

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I know there are other unpaid postdoc programs, but this one really bothers me because UCSF is a top training program and a reputable medical school. They are leaders in the medical field and therefore have an ethical obligation to be good role models as educators and trainers of early career psychologists and other health care professionals. Why should we tolerate unpaid full-time postdocs in our field? I don't see any other allied professions working unpaid after they graduate with no benefits. Imagine the uproar if UCSF decided to stop paying their medical residents and offer zero benefits?

If anyone else wants to email the training director and offer your concerns about this recent development at UCSF, here is the contact information for the training director:

Susan Scheidt, PsyD, Director of Training: [email protected]

http://www.capic.net/material/Opportunities/UCSF Postdoc Fellowship 2013-14.pdf
 
It's depressing but the bay area is literally crawling with clinical psychology students desperate to stay. I understand how they're able to get away without having to offer a stipend. Not that it's okay.
 
I agree; just because they can do this doesn't mean that they should. UCSF really should hold itself to a higher standard and set a better example. Offering unpaid postdoctoral positions could be seen as indirectly discrediting the value of clinical psychologists in medical settings (i.e., we're not even worth getting paid to have around).
 
PHD12 said:
I know there are other unpaid postdoc programs, but this one really bothers me because UCSF is a top training program and a reputable medical school. They are leaders in the medical field and therefore have an ethical obligation to be good role models as educators and trainers of early career psychologists and other health care professionals. Why should we tolerate unpaid full-time postdocs in our field? I don't see any other allied professions working unpaid after they graduate with no benefits. Imagine the uproar if UCSF decided to stop paying their medical residents and offer zero benefits?

If anyone else wants to email the training director and offer your concerns about this recent development at UCSF, here is the contact information for the training director:

Susan Scheidt, PsyD, Director of Training: [email protected]

http://www.capic.net/material/Opportunities/UCSF Postdoc Fellowship 2013-14.pdf
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I believe this is the same program that the California Labor Commissioner recently ordered to pay back wages, punitive damages, and accrued interest to an unpaid post-doc (who I think has posted on this site before). Although this article describes her as an "intern", she was definitely a post-doc:

"The labor commissioner clearly saw otherwise, and noted that Workman’s internship was largely unsupervised, and that she was appointed an employee ID number and paid payroll taxes. As a result, Workman was deemed an employee.

Following the decision, the labor commissioner ordered the Regents of UC San Francisco to pay Workman $6,864 in back wages and another $6,864 in damages, as well as an additional $398.67 in interest."

http://www.ibtimes.com/internship-d...lifornia-san-francisco-ordered-pay-back-wages
 
Just for the record, the lawsuit situation is about a different post-doc than the one listed by the OP.

The OP about an upaid post-doc is for one where there is some truly excellent training in trauma work available and where the staff have been working for years to acquire funding and accreditation but are mired in the complexities/bureaucracies/politics of a large system. I know grads who have opted to be there unpaid in order to accrue their hours and complete licensure in a setting that would then lead to a career path they were set on--and it did.

I understand the overall point. I just want to point out that sometimes training sites can't get the funding they want. But if they don't train at all then we decrease even further the potential routes to licensure.
 
docma said:
I understand the overall point. I just want to point out that sometimes training sites can't get the funding they want. But if they don't train at all then we decrease even further the potential routes to licensure.
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I disagree.

If they do not train, maybe someone will actually take notice. If they continue to take post-docs then things progress on their way...the hospital gets free labor, the staff gets to mentor, and the post-doc...well...they continue to make a large sacrifice bc they feel stuck.

The hospital needs to see the tangible loss in services that they previously received for free. They may not take notice because many hospitals (not mine) hardly appreciate psychology's contributions, but they might if there was a concerted effort to make this a much more public issue. I know if I was an administrator in a hospital and I kept getting services that did not cost me any extra money, I'd have *ZERO* motivation to change anything. If there were rumblings I'd probably wait it out bc there are much more pressing concerns and there is no real consequence to ignoring the rumblings. However, if there was a big enough thorn in my side (whether it be from my staff, patients, risk management, media, etc), and there were tangible benefits and/or consequences...then I'd at least consider the situation.
 
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To my knowledge, UCSF had paid postdoctoral fellowships until recently. This is a newer development and they are getting postdocs and unpaid interns. The unpaid postdoc is also widespread in all areas of the hospital: primary care, trauma recovery, substance abuse, etc. It isn't just one area that couldn't get funding.

The person who sued was suing the program through the employee assistance program--another unpaid UCSF postdoc in another department.

I've met one person who did postdoc in this exact UCSF program. She informed me that she "had no life the entire year" and "worked crazy hours closer to 60 hours." It was not a good experience for her either.
 
PHD12 said:
The unpaid postdoc is also widespread in all areas of the hospital: primary care, trauma recovery, substance abuse, etc. It isn't just one area that couldn't get funding.
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To be clear...these are all psychology post-docs, right? If so...then that is even more of a reason to push the issue.
 
futureapppsy2 said:
How can this not be a labor law violation? I mean, I understand the "trainee" argument can be made with prac students, but a post-doc is certainly doing work similar to that of a "regular" psychologist employee.
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It used to be/still is that you could slap "intern" as a job title on anything and make it unpaid (that's probably why the news article says "intern" instead of "post-doc"). There are a lot of googleable news items about this recently as the practice has gotten out of hand in many fields and the government is apparently looking into it.
 
8989898989 said:
Hi. I am Johanna Workman, the postdoc who filed the wage claim with the Labor Commissioners against UCSF (It's not Susan Scheidt, PsyD's site). Believe me, I fully understand the need for postdoc training sites. I was living in San Diego for 16 years, and after I graduated with my PsyD degree in January, 2011, I did a nationwide search for a postdoc fellowship for my licensure hours. I was ready and willing to go anywhere in the country. In August, 2011, I landed a paid clinical position at a drug & alcohol rehab in Portland, Oregon, that was culturally-specific to African American women, that also promised supervised hours. I got rid of almost all of my belongings, packed up my little red car with what I had left, and rented a room in the gentrified section in the the N.E. of Portland. I worked at the company for 5 months, but did not get any supervision, so I launched another nationwide search for a position that offered supervised postdoc hours. UCSF was the only offer I received, so I accepted, and moved to the San Francisco Bay.

I am self-supporting, with no parents or partner to help fund me. I moved to the dangerous neighborhood of East Oakland (I almost moved into a homeless shelter at one point), I visited food banks to get food, and I went to the free clinics for my medical care. I tried working a couple of part-time jobs to supplement my internship, but they did not work out because the travel time there and back made it not feasible with my full-time postdoc.

I fought for my back pay because I strongly believe that this is a socioeconomic issue. These unpaid postdoctoral internships discriminate against those who do not have additional income. This field is already has an underrepresentation of psychologists of color -- with numbers ranging from 2% to 5% of African American psychologists. Living in the poor Black section of East Oakland, and traveling by bus-train-bus into the wealthy district of Laurel Heights in San Francisco, I witness and live the racial and ethnic disparities daily. I had to sell my car to buy food, which caused me to have a daily 5 hour commute via public transport. On that commute, while waiting for the bus, I've been writing about the socioeconomic conditions on my cell phone, posting it for my friends on Facebook (I have not had a computer of my own, nor internet at home this year). Sometimes, I post my writings to a blog, "Waiting for the Bus: The Trials and Tribulations of Being the Nouveau Poor." It's not the best written prose because it's been done all by cell phone on a choppy commute, but it gives one an idea of what life is like to be poor in East Oakland. http://www.blogster.com/johannaworkman

I will finish my postdoc internship by August 23, with 2000 postdoc hours signed off. I will then be studying for the EPPP and looking for a job. I am planning to relocate to Miami as soon as I am able. I will also be compiling all of the stories I've written on my phone this past year, and writing a book about the socioeconomic and racial disparities I encountered during my short visit in Portland, and my year in the Bay.
Click to expand...

You definitely have a new blog follower, and certainly have my respect and support.

I hear that the situation in Cali is pretty bad for students. What do you think can be done about all of this? Can APA address this issue? The main solution that SDN posters seem to share is that limiting professional school growth and enrollment is the most effective way to do this.
 
8989898989 said:
Hi Rivi, thank you for following my blog. I think what is going to happen is that a good number of the unpaid postdoc training programs will be forced to close for fear of lawsuits. This will likely cut down on enrollment to professional schools as prospective students fear they won't get the postdoc supervision they need to get licensed.
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Do you think the modal psy.d student makes this connection though? In my experience, most arent even aware there is an internship problem, much less knowing anything about the post-doc process/necessity.
 
Thanks, but not sure it really answered my question.

I did some adjuncting and clinical training in a psy.d program this year. I was involved in doing admission interviews as well. I was appalled at how uniformed the majority of applicants were about the field...especially about how training works. Thus, I do not see the hub-bub about unpiad post-docs as really suppressing professional school attendance, because I do not think most are even aware of "post-doc" and/or grasp the gravity of doing unpaid work (post-doctorally) at that point in your life.
 
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erg923 said:
Thanks, but not sure it really answered my question.

I did some adjuncting and clinical training in a psy.d program this year. I was involved in doing admission interviews as well. I was appalled at how uniformed the majority of applicants were about the field...especially about how training works. Thus, I do not see the hub-bub about unpiad post-docs as really suppressing professional school attendance, because I do not think most are even aware of "post-doc" and/or grasp the gravity of doing unpaid work (post-doctorally) at that point in your life.
Click to expand...

^^^ this. There has been evidence of that phenomenon on this board - recently, even - applicable to internships, as well.
 
erg923 said:
Do you think the modal psy.d student makes this connection though? In my experience, most arent even aware there is an internship problem, much less knowing anything about the post-doc process/necessity.
Click to expand...

erg923 said:
Thanks, but not sure it really answered my question.

I did some adjuncting and clinical training in a psy.d program this year. I was involved in doing admission interviews as well. I was appalled at how uniformed the majority of applicants were about the field...especially about how training works. Thus, I do not see the hub-bub about unpiad post-docs as really suppressing professional school attendance, because I do not think most are even aware of "post-doc" and/or grasp the gravity of doing unpaid work (post-doctorally) at that point in your life.
Click to expand...

But what would happen if all the PREdoc internship programs were forced to pay minimum wage?
 
erg923 said:
Thanks, but not sure it really answered my question.

I did some adjuncting and clinical training in a psy.d program this year. I was involved in doing admission interviews as well. I was appalled at how uniformed the majority of applicants were about the field...especially about how training works. Thus, I do not see the hub-bub about unpiad post-docs as really suppressing professional school attendance, because I do not think most are even aware of "post-doc" and/or grasp the gravity of doing unpaid work (post-doctorally) at that point in your life.
Click to expand...

But...but... I'll be doing what I love (even though I only have a vague idea of what it entails as an applicant), so who cares? I don't even need to be paid anyway, I'll be happy. If all YOU care about is money, why didn't you go into financial planning? I'd HATE to be your client.

🙂
 
MCParent said:
But...but... I'll be doing what I love (even though I only have a vague idea of what it entails as an applicant), so who cares? I don't even need to be paid anyway, I'll be happy. If all YOU care about is money, why didn't you go into financial planning? I'd HATE to be your client.

🙂
Click to expand...

I agree completely! Everyone on this board who cares about making a living is selfish. Psychology should be about helping people. Oh, and I have an easy solution for the internship imbalance... Everyone in Clinical Psych Ph.D. programs should stop applying to internship! I don't understand why they apply in the first place, because it's not like they get or need clinical training. They should go back to their icky basement labs and stupid statistics and do math or something all day. Without them, there should be lots of internships for everyone.

Also, puppies.

*rolls eyes*. 🙂
 
8989898989 said:
But what would happen if all the PREdoc internship programs were forced to pay minimum wage?
Click to expand...

I dont know. I made 24k on my internship year. That was $11 something/hour I think, and that was madated by the feds (it was a VA). Regardless, you are kind loosing me here. I think your missing my point.

My point being, the typical professional school applicant is so naive to the field and training, (and financial issues too, IMHO), I do not think proliferation of unpaid post-docs or internships would deter that crowd. I do not think publicity about such things will either.
 
8989898989 said:
Hi. I am Johanna Workman, the postdoc who filed the wage claim with the Labor Commissioners against UCSF (It's not Susan Scheidt, PsyD's site). http://www.ibtimes.com/internship-d...lifornia-san-francisco-ordered-pay-back-wages

Believe me, I fully understand the need for postdoc training sites. I was living in San Diego for 16 years, and after I graduated with my PsyD degree in January, 2011, I did a nationwide search for a postdoc fellowship for my licensure hours. I was ready and willing to go anywhere in the country. In August, 2011, I landed a paid clinical position at a drug & alcohol rehab in Portland, Oregon, that was culturally-specific to African American women, that also promised supervised hours. I got rid of almost all of my belongings, packed up my little red car with what I had left, and rented a room in the gentrified section in the the N.E. of Portland. I worked at the company for 5 months, but did not get any supervision, so I launched another nationwide search for a position that offered supervised postdoc hours. UCSF was the only offer I received, so I accepted, and moved to the San Francisco Bay.

I am self-supporting, with no parents or partner to help fund me. I moved to the dangerous neighborhood of East Oakland (I almost moved into a homeless shelter at one point), I visited food banks to get food, and I went to the free clinics for my medical care. I tried working a couple of part-time jobs to supplement my internship, but they did not work out because the travel time there and back made it not feasible with my full-time postdoc.

I fought for my back pay because I strongly believe that this is a socioeconomic issue. These unpaid postdoctoral internships discriminate against those who do not have additional income. This field is already has an underrepresentation of psychologists of color -- with numbers ranging from 2% to 5% of African American psychologists. Living in the poor Black section of East Oakland, and traveling by bus-train-bus into the wealthy district of Laurel Heights in San Francisco, I witness and live the racial and ethnic disparities daily. I had to sell my car to pay for basic expenses, which caused me to have a daily 5 hour commute via public transport. On that commute, while waiting for the bus, I've been writing about the socioeconomic conditions on my cell phone, posting it for my friends on Facebook (I have not had a computer of my own, nor internet at home this year). Sometimes, I post my writings to a blog, "Waiting for the Bus: The Trials and Tribulations of Being the Nouveau Poor." It's not the best written prose because it's been done all by cell phone on a choppy commute, but it gives one an idea of what life is like to be poor in East Oakland. http://www.blogster.com/johannaworkman

I will finish my postdoc internship by August 23, with 2000 postdoc hours signed off. I will then be studying for the EPPP and looking for a job. I am planning to relocate to Miami as soon as I am able. I will also be compiling all of the stories I've written on my phone this past year, and writing a book about the socioeconomic and racial disparities I encountered during my short visit in Portland, and my year in the Bay.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting, I'm happy that someone finally took action against these unpaid post-docs. Would you mind sharing which program you attended?
 
erg923 said:
I dont know. I made 24k on my internship year. That was $11 something/hour I think, and that was madated by the feds (it was a VA). Regardless, you are kind loosing me here. I think your missing my point.

My point being, the typical professional school applicant is so naive to the field and training, (and financial issues too, IMHO), I do not think proliferation of unpaid post-docs or internships would deter that crowd. I do not think publicity about such things will either.
Click to expand...

I believe the fed floor for minimum wake is $7.25/hr....which equates to around ~$14k/yr working assuming around a 40hr work week and 2 (non-paid) weeks of vacation. That is a non-issue for anyone who pursues the typical path for internship (APPIC Match).

As for awareness of the field and "realities" of practice, I think it is short-sighted to restrict it only professional school applicants. I've heard all sorts of interesting ideas about the field from students across institutions.
 
8989898989 said:
I am not a fortune teller, but if I were, I would predict that if the unpaid predoc internship sites were forced to pay interns minimum wage, then the majority of the slots would shut down. I believe (but I could be wrong) that most students in professional schools complete non-APA accredited predoc internships. If there are no internship slots for students, then the pressure would be put back on the schools, which would likely have to cut enrollment. Some professional schools may even be forced to shut down.
Click to expand...

I wish I was as optimistic. There is an internship problem now, and yet FSPSs are admitting more students, not less; the folks collecting the tuition do not seem to have a problem with the current situation....
 
As long as there is an accessible path to licensure in large states like CA, IL, and NY where there are a concentration of FSPS programs (and plenty of ppl willing to pay), I doubt anything will change. Having APA-acred. status is a small bump in the road as it stands today bc of the loophole of "equivalency of training" that states allow.

I've been rooting for a lawsuit for years, as the $ is where things begin and end. Loan $'s are still cheap (compared to 20 yrs ago, adjusted for inflation), so programs aren't going to voluntarily abandon those $'s unless they are forced to do so through legal and/or monetary reasons.
 
erg923 said:
Thanks, but not sure it really answered my question.

I did some adjuncting and clinical training in a psy.d program this year. I was involved in doing admission interviews as well. I was appalled at how uniformed the majority of applicants were about the field...especially about how training works. Thus, I do not see the hub-bub about unpiad post-docs as really suppressing professional school attendance, because I do not think most are even aware of "post-doc" and/or grasp the gravity of doing unpaid work (post-doctorally) at that point in your life.
Click to expand...


To be fair, a lot of students who attend PhD/non-FSPS programs are not that knowledgeable about training issues, either, much less things like just how bad the internship imbalance is or the issue of unpaid post-docs. SDNers and those who are on professional listservs throughout their training are unfortunately outliers, in my experience.
 
Another advantage of moving out of CA is that in many states its possible to get your "post-doc" hours through a regular job...if the state requires post-doc hours at all.

I took a faculty position out of internship, but there are a host of people in my state who simply got their post-doc hours on the job. My current place of employment does this as well. It payed like twice the small college faculty gig...so I was lured away from academia. 🙂
 
8989898989 said:
You know, I am very new to this board, and I wish it was around when I started my training. I had no idea how horrendous the postdoc internship process was going to be. When I defended my dissertation, I thought I was basically home free. If I were to do it all over again, I would have done everything in my power to have completed an APA-accredited internship. I would have gathered all my pennies, and moved away from my lovely San Diego, and taken a position in the Midwest if I had to. Not only would an APA-accredited predoc internship put me in a better position to land a postdoc internship paid at a livable wage, but now as I search for jobs, I would be eligible for positions at Kaiser, the VA, and student counseling centers in universities. I am regarded to be a very good clinician by most, but lacking an APA internship has been to my severe detriment.
Click to expand...

This is profound to the point that I almost want to make this my Signature line here (and I'm in an applied field, even, not one of the licensing ones). This cuts to the heart of many discussions that have happened on this board.
 
erg923 said:
Another advantage of moving out of CA is that in many states its possible to get your "post-doc" hours through a regular job...if the state requires post-doc hours at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah but California's a superior state. Way better than the South at least...I mean, seriously. C'mon. Like, seriously. :laugh:
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
The People's Republic of CA can keep their state....we'll keep our completely affordable cost of living, lol. /Midwest.
Click to expand...

I personally found the Midwest overrated and not so affordable as well. 👎

If you want cheap, move south. Granted, I can't stand that part of the country so I'll stick elsewhere.
 
The northeast is expensive, cold, and uptight.

The south is poor, obsolete, and ignorant.

Florida is just plain old crazy. With bugs the size of gators.

The midwest is basically the south except the weather is worse, the people are fatter, and the houses are more expensive.

The southwest is hot, meth-infused, and the only cuisine to eat is Texican.

The northwest is pretentious, rainy, and nearly as expensive as California.

California may be pricy like New York, nutty like Florida, and poorly educated like Mississippi, but there's a reason everyone wants to live here and those who do want to stay. Maybe it's the weather, maybe it's the water, maybe it's because we can be smug *******s towards the rest of the country, but damn I love this place!
 
Uhh, I disagree with your characterization of the Midwest.
 
Some of us like our weather to be weathery.
 
Well, I've only lived in the Midwest so I can't comment on the other parts. 🙂
 
what are states like Michigan, North Dakota and Montana considered? They dont seem to conform to our geographic classifications? lol
 
erg923 said:
what are states like Michigan, North Dakota and Montana considered? They dont seem to conform to our geographic classifications? lol
Click to expand...

Yeah and they completely left out the southeast, which is way more desirable than CA IMO.

Different strokes for different folks., After visiting several areas of CA, knowing people that live and have lived there, etc., I can say with confidence that it a) isn't for me, b) does have a lot of cool stuff, but it isn't as cool as everyone thinks, and c) is probably objectively overrated.

The more power to you if you are obessed with the state and want to pay a bunch of money to live there despite all of its flaws. As someone who has lived in numerous states around the country, I just feel bad for you that you have blinders on.
 
Member6523 said:
The northeast is expensive, cold, and uptight.

The south is poor, obsolete, and ignorant.

Florida is just plain old crazy. With bugs the size of gators.

The midwest is basically the south except the weather is worse, the people are fatter, and the houses are more expensive.

The southwest is hot, meth-infused, and the only cuisine to eat is Texican.

The northwest is pretentious, rainy, and nearly as expensive as California.

California may be pricy like New York, nutty like Florida, and poorly educated like Mississippi, but there's a reason everyone wants to live here and those who do want to stay. Maybe it's the weather, maybe it's the water, maybe it's because we can be smug *******s towards the rest of the country, but damn I love this place!
Click to expand...


I like how the mountain west and northwest don't exist. 😉
 
I consider Michigan and North Dakota to be in the Midwest. Not sure about Montana!
 
cara susanna said:
I consider Michigan and North Dakota to be in the Midwest. Not sure about Montana!
Click to expand...

If one is thinking of moving to the Midwest, I think it's useful to distinguish between plains states(ND) and great lakes states (MI). Likewise, from only visiting a few times I think it's clear CA isn't a monolithic entity...I'd rather move to the bay area over southern ca
 
Even a few hours away can make a huge difference in CA (compare, like, Palm Springs to San Diego).

Of course, the same is true for other states as well.
 
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Everyone has their preferences regarding where they would like to live. I lived most of my life in the great lakes region and loved it. Moved to FL for graduate school and it has its perks, though I do look forward to moving to a state that is less of an embarrassment for internship/post-doc (seriously....why is every other crazy thing on the news an event in FL?). I'd never begrudge someone their preferences on where they live since we all have different priorities. Personally, after visiting the Bay area last year...I liked it. I certainly wouldn't object to living there, but it didn't seem like anything special and I'd need a pretty good offer for me to justify the high cost of living (ironically, they also have some of the best paying post-docs I've seen - though still not enough to offset the cost of living). To each their own though.

That said, its not at all uncommon on this board for us to see posts by people who expect the profession and the world as a whole to bend over backwards to accommodate their living preferences. We shouldn't be shaping psychology education or the field around CA. Market forces will always exist and I have little sympathy for someone who "has" to live in San Francisco and only there, graduated from a mediocre-to-crummy program, was a mediocre-to-crummy student while there, and now can't find a post-doc that will actually pay them money. Work harder, don't get fake doctorates from strip mall schools, and consider moving just like everyone else in the world has to do. We shut down Alliant, Argosy and a handful of others and I guarantee unpaid post-docs virtually disappear inside a week.
 
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