sexual harassment by attending

[esme]

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Hi...i've never posted before on sdn but have encountered a serious problem during my first rotation as as third year. during one week while i was doing consults, my attending (who is older than my father) constantly made remarks re. my appearance, seemed to particularly enjoy practicing physical exams with me and making physical contact whenever possible, and finished the week off by propositioning me while i was in his vehicle after he insisting on giving me a ride to my car. Studies show that this is not uncommon, but i don't know what to think. The only option offered me by the school when i talked informally to them was to make a formal report, which i am reluctant to do. However, this experience was significant enough that I am actually afraid to take any more rotations at the hospital in which this occurred. Have other people experienced such misconduct? What did they do?

 

[kinetic]

Hi...i've never posted before on sdn but have encountered a serious problem during my first rotation as as third year. my attending, who is an old man, consistently sticks his hand down my shirt and fondles my breasts while screaming "show me the money". I went to my skool and they said that was normal. Also, then the secretary started poking things up my dress and she was very mean and nasty. I went to the poooolice but the man theere also raped me. What am i 2 do?

 

[bts4202]

Hi...i've never posted before on sdn but have encountered a serious problem during my first rotation as as third year. during one week while i was doing consults, my attending (who is older than my father) constantly made remarks re. my appearance, seemed to particularly enjoy practicing physical exams with me and making physical contact whenever possible, and finished the week off by propositioning me while i was in his vehicle after he insisting on giving me a ride to my car. Studies show that this is not uncommon, but i don't know what to think. The only option offered me by the school when i talked informally to them was to make a formal report, which i am reluctant to do. However, this experience was significant enough that I am actually afraid to take any more rotations at the hospital in which this occurred. Have other people experienced such misconduct? What did they do?

I think that before you jump to sexual harrassment accusations, you should at least tell the guy you are not interested and then see if he backs off. Otherwise, you seem to be upset just because an older man asked you out.

 

[Mirror Form]

I think that before you jump to sexual harrassment accusations, you should at least tell the guy you are not interested and then see if he backs off. Otherwise, you seem to be upset just because an older man asked you out.

I absolutely disagree. This guy is in a very strong position of power over her b/c he could help her out with an H, or he could seriously f*ck up her career with a bad evaluation. Therefore, it's completely inappropriate for him to be propositioning her. The fact that he's so much older makes it just downright sleazy too. You really have to wonder if he wasn't going for the: "I'll hook you up with a good eval, if you hook up with me."

ESME: You should definitely file a formal report! However, if you want to play it safe, wait until your eval is in.

 

[MD'05]

ESME: You should definitely file a formal report! However, if you want to play it safe, wait until your eval is in.

And perhaps not do any rotations at the hospital where this guy works. His friends and associates can make your life miserable in the future and possibly damage your career.

 

[ginger_flower]

dat's nasty. some of these old docs. you gotta wonder. definitely file a report after your eval is turned in.

 

[Fermata]

Quid pro quo.

 

[Ice-1]

I agree that you should file a formal report on this guy, otherwise he can just continue this behavior with the next medical student that he takes a fancy to. Doing this will force the hospital to at least investigate the matter, otherwise they are wide open from a legal liability standpoint. Also alert your school on a formal basis, perhaps this will result in the school not assigning any more students to him. If he mistreats the women students he probably also does the same with men, although probably in a different way. Also check with your school to see if you can get a transfer away from this guy or at least get a different person to work with. It takes courage to say no and take action, but you can do it. There is no reaon for you to put up with unprofessional behavior.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Hi...i've never posted before on sdn but have encountered a serious problem during my first rotation as as third year. my attending, who is an old man, consistently sticks his hand down my shirt and fondles my breasts while screaming "show me the money". I went to my skool and they said that was normal. Also, then the secretary started poking things up my dress and she was very mean and nasty. I went to the poooolice but the man theere also raped me. What am i 2 do?

Don't tell me you suspect it's not a sincere post 😱

 

[kinetic]

What? No! I just also need some advice. 😀

 

[bts4202]

I absolutely disagree. This guy is in a very strong position of power over her b/c he could help her out with an H, or he could seriously f*ck up her career with a bad evaluation. Therefore, it's completely inappropriate for him to be propositioning her. The fact that he's so much older makes it just downright sleazy too. You really have to wonder if he wasn't going for the: "I'll hook you up with a good eval, if you hook up with me."

ESME: You should definitely file a formal report! However, if you want to play it safe, wait until your eval is in.

Granted, but that is NOT sexual harrassment. Say he is acting inappropriately and i will agree, but accuse him of sexual harrassment and you are making a false accusation as far as I am concerned.

Disclaimer: Unless of course you HAVE asked him to stop and he has refused to. But since you didn't say that, i tend to think you have not.

 

[Mirror Form]

Granted, but that is NOT sexual harrassment. Say he is acting inappropriately and i will agree, but accuse him of sexual harrassment and you are making a false accusation as far as I am concerned.

Disclaimer: Unless of course you HAVE asked him to stop and he has refused to. But since you didn't say that, i tend to think you have not.

But the problem is that he is in a position of power over her. Obviously, telling your attending halfway through a rotation that he's needs to change his behavior could have serious consquences (depending on how much of a creep he is). That's why his behavior is completely innappropriate and he should be punished. Your stance would only be acceptable if he was not her attending.

And lets not even get into how academically dishonest it is when professors / attendings give good grades or good evals to female students that hook up with them.

 

[tigershark]

Granted, but that is NOT sexual harrassment. Say he is acting inappropriately and i will agree, but accuse him of sexual harrassment and you are making a false accusation as far as I am concerned.

Disclaimer: Unless of course you HAVE asked him to stop and he has refused to. But since you didn't say that, i tend to think you have not.

This is sexual harrassment, a "victim" does not have to ask a "harrasser" to stop before it is considered sexual harrassment. All that is required is that a person in a position of power makes the workplace sexually threatening.

 

[phoenixsupra]

What? No! I just also need some advice. 😀

Ok, Kinetic. Just stop crossdressing on rotations. Transvestite freak. 😀

 

[kinetic]

Stop judging me!!!

 

[phoenixsupra]

Stop judging me!!!

You're right. I gotta be more tolerant in this pc age. I'm sure you make a very pretty girl Kinetic.

 

[kinetic]

I have very tender boobies.

 

[esme]

My post regarding sexual harassment was indeed a real situation, and i'm a little unnerved by the fact that future physicians are posting comments making light of the gender inequities still apparent in medicine and making light of my experience itself. But I figured some people would be turned off by the title of the message simply because it states the term harassment. In fact, i never gave the issue much thought until this happened, and it was actually my advisor who labeled the experience as such. I'd like to point out that throughout the week this was occurring, I thought many times of how to tell my attending that it was inappropriate to leer at me, to stare and make comments like "well, i don't know why that patient wouldn't want such an attractive medical student to give him a physical exam. i know i would". But you've all experienced the militaristic hierarchy present in clinical rotations, and especially given that this was my first rotation i really had no idea what to do. I'd also like to share that this man was inappropriate enough during the week that I will probably not be applying to residencies where i would have to rotate through that hospital, and no, it wasn't because he was just an old man. Do you think I have never had anyone come on to me before? there is most certainly a huge assymmetry of power between a medical student doing her first clinical rotation and an attending with thirty years experience. And the fact that this now limits my choices and experiences affects me, medical culture, and future patients, which is the worst outcome of all.

 

[kinetic]

Oh, he kept leering and staring at me with his old man eyes. Also, his hands found their way to my chest all the time! He groped me like a filthy bastard! Nevertheless, I got into his car and spread my legs akimbo. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Oh, he kept leering and staring at me with his old man eyes. Also, his hands found their way to my chest all the time! He groped me like a filthy bastard! Nevertheless, I got into his car and spread my legs akimbo. I don't know what I was thinking.

Kinetic, you are officially the sickest puppy on SDN

 

[Seaglass]

What do the residents on your rotation have to say about this?

 

[bts4202]

This is sexual harrassment, a "victim" does not have to ask a "harrasser" to stop before it is considered sexual harrassment. All that is required is that a person in a position of power makes the workplace sexually threatening.

Well, I have yet to hear how the workplace is "sexually threatening". No where did she tell us that he threatened her evaluation or anything of that kind. He just asked her out.. big deal. I know quite a few couples who started out in a very similar way. Hell, think about how many doctors are married to nurses. I personally know at least a half dozen.

Look, esme, have some common sense please. tell the guy you have a boyfriend or tell him straight out that you are not interested. if he ignores it and continues.. then make a formal report. Don't label the guy with some non-sense charge just cause he asked you out.

WOW, this makes me scared to ever come on to a women when i am doctor.. i may get slapped with a suit!! Its a wonder people are able to date anymore!!

 

[Mirror Form]

Well, I have yet to hear how the workplace is "sexually threatening". No where did she tell us that he threatened her evaluation or anything of that kind. He just asked her out.. big deal. I know quite a few couples who started out in a very similar way. Hell, think about how many doctors are married to nurses. I personally know at least a half dozen.

Look, esme, have some common sense please. tell the guy you have a boyfriend or tell him straight out that you are not interested. if he ignores it and continues.. then make a formal report. Don't label the guy with some non-sense charge just cause he asked you out.

WOW, this makes me scared to ever come on to a women when i am doctor.. i may get slapped with a suit!! Its a wonder people are able to date anymore!!

If you can't see the difference b/w a doctor asking out a nurse versus an attending asking out students he's in charge of grading, then you must be ******ed. Professor - student relationships are not legit if they occur while the professor is grading the student (and they're especially bad when the attending has as much influence as during clinical rotations). Any college professor who repeatedly hits on his students gets fired, as they should. If you're an attending, hitting on your students is bull-****! It's a very well known rule, so this attending knows damn well that he isn't acting ethically. Don't make excuses for him.

Furthermore, don't you think it's BS that this attending was probably willing to give good grades to students that put out? He's an unprofesional jack@ss and she can't in good conscious let him get away with such behavior.

 

[bts4202]

If you can't see the difference b/w a doctor asking out a nurse versus an attending asking out students he's in charge of grading, then you must be ******ed. Professor - student relationships are not legit if they occur while the professor is grading the student (and they're especially bad when the attending has as much influence as during clinical rotations). Any college professor who repeatedly hits on his students gets fired, as they should. If you're an attending, hitting on your students is bull-****! It's a very well known rule, so this attending knows damn well that he isn't acting ethically. Don't make excuses for him.

Furthermore, don't you think it's BS that this attending was probably willing to give good grades to students that put out? He's an unprofesional jack@ss and she can't in good conscious let him get away with such behavior.

ONCE AGAIN, acting inappropriately, which i have already said this guy is doing, does not equal sexual harrassment. It is inappropriate to throw words like that around since they can have profound consequences. Sexual harrassment has to do with proffesors or bosses or people in a position of power above someone else(which is why the nurse-doctor analogy fits). Just because the guy is a little hard up and is hitting on his student doesn't mean he needs to be accused of sexual harrassment.

If the guy hits on her and she says nothing, then it is her own fault that he continues. If he hits on her and she tells him she is not interested and he ignores her and continues, then she should write him up for sure. But in this case, she has done nothing but complain to other people but has not had the cajones to actually speak to the guy. Give the freaking guy a chance by letting him know how you feel, before running to administration.

Oh, and as far as this goes:

Furthermore, don't you think it's BS that this attending was probably willing to give good grades to students that put out? He's an unprofesional jack@ss and she can't in good conscious let him get away with such behavior.

This is why it is inappropriate to throw words like "sexual harrassment" around.. because ignorant people start to make up scenarios and accuse people of quite a lot, even though they may have done very little. No where has this girl said that this attending even mentioned grades.

 

[shivalrous]

This isn't really the place to get advice for a serious issue like this. I would go with the professional advice that you have already received. As you can see, nothing here is really constructive.

 

[Mirror Form]

ONCE AGAIN, acting inappropriately, which i have already said this guy is doing, does not equal sexual harrassment. It is inappropriate to throw words like that around since they can have profound consequences. Sexual harrassment has to do with proffesors or bosses or people in a position of power above someone else(which is why the nurse-doctor analogy fits). Just because the guy is a little hard up and is hitting on his student doesn't mean he needs to be accused of sexual harrassment.

If the guy hits on her and she says nothing, then it is her own fault that he continues. If he hits on her and she tells him she is not interested and he ignores her and continues, then she should write him up for sure. But in this case, she has done nothing but complain to other people but has not had the cajones to actually speak to the guy. Give the freaking guy a chance by letting him know how you feel, before running to administration.

I would agree with that if this guy was her peer, then his behavior was completely fine. But the problem is that he has significant influence over her career. For example, if you're applying for a competitive medicine residency program, one bad eval from a medicine attending could be a huge detriment to your application. This is why this attending's actions could be considered sexual harrasment: b/c she wasn't in the position to tell him to piss off.

Unfortunately, these things happen all the time, which is why academic institutions all have strict rules about professor - student relationships. Everybody knows professor - student relationships are unethical, and this attending knew his behavior was unethical. There is nothing wrong with busting him for it. In fact, letting him get away with it would be unethical IMO.

This is why it is inappropriate to throw words like "sexual harrassment" around.. because ignorant people start to make up scenarios and accuse people of quite a lot, even though they may have done very little. No where has this girl said that this attending even mentioned grades.

Do you really believe for one second that he wouldn't have given her a very good evaluation if she had accepted his proposition? Don't be stupid!

 

[Soleilpie]

This is most definitely a situation involving sexual harrassment. Just because the attending hasn't been told to stop, does not mean he's innocent. I think some of you have this picture in your mind that a sexual harrasser is someone who is repeatedly told to stop and does not and threatenes a person's livelyhood or class grade. The fact that he finds every excuse to touch her and the comment he had made about wanting a physical by her, if he were the patient is enough grounds to be considered sexual harrassment. He is in a position of power here and is not her peer. He does not have to threaten her grade in order to be a threat to her. The fact that he's in this position and has put this student in an uncomfortable situation where she has to worry about her grade and her future rotations is threatening enough. This is considered an abuse of power in a relationship of trust. I'm SURE he is aware of his position here! If he thinks it's innocent, then he has a lot to learn. If he's interested in this student, he should probably wait until the power structure has changed.

 

[Mirror Form]

This isn't really the place to get advice for a serious issue like this. I would go with the professional advice that you have already received. As you can see, nothing here is really constructive.

Well if you think your opinion on here is meaningless, why are you bothering to post it? Obviously nobody should just do whatever they read on an internet forum. But this is as good a place as any for contructive arguments and food for thought.

 

[Mirror Form]

This is considered an abuse of power in a relationship of trust. I'm SURE he is aware of his position here! If he thinks it's innocent, then he has a lot to learn. If he's interested in this student, he should probably wait until the power structure has changed.

Exactly 👍 👍

 

[Ergo]

Granted, but that is NOT sexual harrassment. Say he is acting inappropriately and i will agree, but accuse him of sexual harrassment and you are making a false accusation as far as I am concerned.

Disclaimer: Unless of course you HAVE asked him to stop and he has refused to. But since you didn't say that, i tend to think you have not.

I agree completely. Act like a professional even when he is not. Tactfully decline, without being rude or threatening, and theres no reason for him to retaliate. Negative sequelae would result from embarrasment, threats, or public humiliation. Just be friendly and laugh it off like a confident independent woman. (or man...) whatever. This is a part of the real world.

 

[Ergo]

Clarification: Im not condoning his behavior, technically it shows very bad judement on his part. Now its in your court to handle it in the best way possible for you.

 

[ears]

You seem caught in a bad situation. There are two obvious options: file a formal report and make a big stink, or let it go. These have readily apparent advantages and flaws.

There are in between ways, though. You could ask to speak to a dean (probably some flavor of associate dean, or "dean for students"). At the beginning, say that you'd like the conversation to be "off the record". Then say that you love your medical school, and you'd hate to see it become embroiled in any kind of legal problems. Describe the behavior (which is clearly inappropriate, and certainly borderline illegal). Say that you're concerned that it could be a pattern, and that some future student might not be so understanding about it, which could cause problems. (And afterwards, TAKE NOTES about your conversation; consider having your signature on the notes notarized.)

If you finesse it properly, the professor will be reprimanded without being humiliated; he'll have strike one against him with the medical school (which is probably the most that could be achieved through any formal process); and the school will perceive you as the height of professionalism.

Obviously, that's something of a fantasy scenario, but my point is that you might be able to find a quiet, middle way through all of this that avoids the big problems with the two obvious approaches.

I wish all those in this kind of situation luck and strength.

 

[Mirror Form]

Clarification: Im not condoning his behavior, technically it shows very bad judement on his part. Now its in your court to handle it in the best way possible for you.

Part of the reason I think his behavior is more then merely inappropriate is b/c it involves academic dishonesty. There is no way that he wouldn't have hooked her up with a good grade and eval if she had accepted his proposition. He needs at least some sort of slap on the wrist; you can't just let people get away with this sort of stuff.

 

[bts4202]

Part of the reason I think his behavior is more then merely inappropriate is b/c it involves academic dishonesty. There is no way that he wouldn't have hooked her up with a good grade and eval if she had accepted his proposition. He needs at least some sort of slap on the wrist; you can't just let people get away with this sort of stuff.

there is no way to prove in court what he may or may not have done in the future nor validate a charge based on possible future actions. Thats like charging someone with murder when they just got in a fist fight, because "you would have killed him if you hadn't been stopped". You can only deal with what he HAS done, not what he COULD HAVE done.

 

[esme]

to answer the question posed earlier, there were no residents on this service, so it was me, the attending, and another student who was always with someone else...so no resident input.

to ears: i'd absolutely love for your suggestion to be what ensued. however, as i mentioned in my first post, I did talk to the school informally, then when i tried to follow up i was informed that i basically had to make a formal complaint for anything at all to happen. I was not happy with this option. I realize that such a complaint is stigmatizing, and i am loathe to involve myself in such a process as well. However, I am also not happy with just letting it go. After the denouement in the car, I was very afraid to go to my rotation. I could not endure his comments, leering, asking me about my personal life (i'm not talking about questions about my cat) and his disrespect for physical boundaries any longer. I realized this especially when I started hyperventilating out of fear at the thought of running into him in the stairwell alone. Needless to say, regardless of what the attending might have done to my grade, my performance certainly suffered, both at the clinic/hospital and due to my inability to study because of my preoccupation with how i would avoid this character the following day.

So my options now seem to be to drop it, to make a formal complaint, or to bring it up again informally with the school, but i don't know why they would want to hear it again. The reason I wrote the original post was to get others' opinions on these options. I'm also writing this so people realize that these situations are real and they affect women (and men to a lesser degree) in _very_ harmful ways. I am not a humorless woman who 'can't take a joke' or who takes the smallest comment and runs wild with it. This was and is a horrible situation and i hope that no one else has to experience it.

 

[no-see-um]

This isn't really the place to get advice for a serious issue like this. I would go with the professional advice that you have already received. As you can see, nothing here is really constructive.

I agree the most with the statement above. I compliment you on trying to discuss this and seek out advice, but Medical students are just like everyone else out there in the world with just a little more knowledge of medicine and are not exactly the wise sages, or are not always keen enough to recognize these types of problems nor give the best advice when it comes to things like this, so take a lot of these responses (including mine) with a grain of salt. Because although this may involve a clinical, it is not about a clinical, any more so than it is about something that affects women all across the country and across the world in businesses and any other type of profession there is. So, in that respect, your question transcends this forum.

As a person of the opposite gender and not someone who thinks a knowledge of science or being someone who looks to go into the profession of medicine makes my opinion any more valid than the next... Here are my thoughts as a person...


I have always believed that women have it pretty hard.

At least as a guy you don't have people with power trying to come on to you all the time and looking at you differently than how that person in power may view the rest- as a real professional or student. Some men do not have the ability to see a woman in a professional setting and stay professional. It's a whole different world and any guy who posts on here and thinks this is an easy thing to understand and sort out, I would venture could not possibly understand what a woman has to face every day... (although sexual harrassment can happen to men, too)

My advice to the original poster is to make sure that you are not misunderstanding the situation. If it really is a threatening environment for you, then you ought to seek out help in this situation. It could only ameliorate things. If you felt threatened, then most likely, it was just that and you have the right not to have to go into work each day and feel that way...

 

[waterski232002]

Originally Posted by bts4202
Granted, but that is NOT sexual harrassment. Say he is acting inappropriately and i will agree, but accuse him of sexual harrassment and you are making a false accusation as far as I am concerned.

Disclaimer: Unless of course you HAVE asked him to stop and he has refused to. But since you didn't say that, i tend to think you have not.

I agree completely. Act like a professional even when he is not. Tactfully decline, without being rude or threatening, and theres no reason for him to retaliate. Negative sequelae would result from embarrasment, threats, or public humiliation. Just be friendly and laugh it off like a confident independent woman. (or man...) whatever. This is a part of the real world.

I Agree... 👍

Sledge... you need to chill out about the grades/evaluations thing... You are making huge assumptions!!!

 

[ishaninatte]

How is that not sexual harassment?!?!? Jesus people. Do you remember the line?

"That's sexual harassment, and I don't have to take it."

 

[Mirror Form]

Sledge... you need to chill out about the grades/evaluations thing... You are making huge assumptions!!!

I can't believe you guys are really naive enough to envision this attending filling out an evaluation completely objectively if he had just engaged in sexual relations with the student.

Yes, it's possible. And it's also about as likely as a meteorite falling on your head next time you walk outside. Of course he'd almost certainly give someone he was having sexual relations with an good evaluation, especially if he wanted to keep her around for the future.

 

[waterski232002]

ESME... I am a male, and I actually encountered a similar situation on my second clinical rotation. My female attending, who was relatively young/divorced/with kids, would always flirt with me, telling me how attractive I was. She often suggested we go out for coffee, and I would just blow it off. After a couple days of working with her, she asked me to lunch. I didn't think much of it at all since I figured we'd just go to the hospital cafeteria together. Then, she told me to page her since she left for clinic in the afternoons... that way she could come pick-me up at the hospital (to actually "go out"). A couple days went by and I made some excuses. Then she said she wanted to go to dinner instead of lunch, since I was obviously busy during the day (aka, blowing her off). I realized, that things would continue to escalate unless I put a stop to it, and I kept thinking about how to handle it appropriately.....

I had absolutely no interest in this woman, but felt the "power" thing lurking over my head. I didn't want to piss her off and I also didn't want to make a stink over the issue. Most importantly--I did not want to go out with her. I finally realized, that if I would have gone out with her, it would have only been to appease her... which is not right, and would only feed the fire. Although she was not shady, like the attending in your situation seems to be acting, she was still acting "inappropriately".

In the end, I decided to be straight forward with her.... I went up to her one morning before rounds (privately) and told her that I was very flattered by the fact that she was interested in me, and that I really took it as a compliment. Then I told her that I was not interested in going out to dinner or lunch with her because I felt "uncomfortable" with the situation. I told her that it wasn't a big deal, and downplayed it everything else.... The second I said that I felt "uncomfortable", I could tell that she got a little nervous... She was probably thinking "****... sexual harrassment" in her head, but the situation was over, and she and I went back to normal.

I never told anyone (except one of my close friends in med school) about the situation until months later, b/c I respected her, and she was nice, and the last thing I wanted to do was hurt her reputation or EXPLODE the situation with gossip....

I would suggest doing something along similar lines... do not explode the situation with a "formal" report, unless you're forced too... I would causal explain your situation to him and tell him you feel uncomfortable with the situation. If he is normal, the situation will stop. If he does not, then file the report... but realize this will EXPLODE things, and you'll be hearing about it for the next 2 years... And it will always be on your mind. If you can drop it, I would.

 

[Mirror Form]

there is no way to prove in court what he may or may not have done in the future nor validate a charge based on possible future actions. Thats like charging someone with murder when they just got in a fist fight, because "you would have killed him if you hadn't been stopped". You can only deal with what he HAS done, not what he COULD HAVE done.

Simply going after a student that you're in charge of grading is a huge breach of ethics. One of the many reasons that "professor - student relationships" are considered immoral is b/c everybody knows that the professor will give special treatment to the student. That fact that it often also puts the student in a very difficult position is another reason.

Whether you want to argue over the legal definition of sexual harrasment is another issue. Regardless of whether the attending's conduct meets the legal definition, he actions were abhorent and he deserves to have some sort of punishment.

 

[Mirror Form]

ESME... I am a male, and I actually encountered a similar situation on my second clinical rotation. My female attending, who was relatively young/divorced/with kids, would always flirt with me, telling me how attractive I was. She often suggested we go out for coffee, and I would just blow it off. After a couple days of working with her, she asked me to lunch. I didn't think much of it at all since I figured we'd just go to the hospital cafeteria together. Then, she told me to page her since she left for clinic in the afternoons... that way she could come pick-me up at the hospital (to actually "go out"). A couple days went by and I made some excuses. Then she said she wanted to go to dinner instead of lunch, since I was obviously busy during the day (aka, blowing her off). I realized, that things would continue to escalate unless I put a stop to it, and I kept thinking about how to handle it appropriately.....

I had absolutely no interest in this woman, but felt the "power" thing lurking over my head. I didn't want to piss her off and I also didn't want to make a stink over the issue. Most importantly--I did not want to go out with her. I finally realized, that if I would have gone out with her, it would have only been to appease her... which is not right, and would only feed the fire. Although she was not shady, like the attending in your situation seems to be acting, she was still acting "inappropriately".

In the end, I decided to be straight forward with her.... I went up to her one morning before rounds (privately) and told her that I was very flattered by the fact that she was interested in me, and that I really took it as a compliment. Then I told her that I was not interested in going out to dinner or lunch with her because I felt "uncomfortable" with the situation. I told her that it wasn't a big deal, and downplayed it everything else.... The second I said that I felt "uncomfortable", I could tell that she got a little nervous... She was probably thinking "****... sexual harrassment" in her head, but the situation was over, and she and I went back to normal.

I never told anyone (except one of my close friends in med school) about the situation until months later, b/c I respected her, and she was nice, and the last thing I wanted to do was hurt her reputation or EXPLODE the situation with gossip....

I would suggest doing something along similar lines... do not explode the situation with a "formal" report, unless you're forced too... I would causal explain your situation to him and tell him you feel uncomfortable with the situation. If he is normal, the situation will stop. If he does not, then file the report... but realize this will EXPLODE things, and you'll be hearing about it for the next 2 years... And it will always be on your mind. If you can drop it, I would.

I think you handled that situation very well. Maybe I'm just a little old-fashioned though, but I think a much older man hitting on his female students and being somewhat "touchy-feely," is a much different dynamic then a recently divorced young women hitting on a student who is only slightly younger. I guess in your case, even though the attending was acting out of line, I feel a lot more sympathetic toward her since she was recently divorced and closer to your age.

 

[Seaglass]

ONCE AGAIN, acting inappropriately, which i have already said this guy is doing, does not equal sexual harrassment.

Of course this is absolutely sexual harrasment. Sexual harrasment is behavior that the victim believes causes a hostile work environment. Whether or not it actually does is an issue for the courts.

It is inappropriate to throw words like that around since they can have profound consequences. Sexual harrassment has to do with proffesors or bosses or people in a position of power above someone else(which is why the nurse-doctor analogy fits).

In fact doctors have very little power over nurses except perhaps in a private practice. Otherwise they are generally hired by someone else and fired by someone else. The only "power" we have over them is to write them up for not carrying out orders. Even in that case the review and punishment is carried out by nursing supervisors.

The reason I asked about residents is because I figured there weren't any. Furthermore, I assume that this attending does not work at a teaching hospital and has not worked with students much. If I may go one step further, I assume you are an osteopathic student, because you are rotating at such a hospital. How did I do, 3 out of 3?

 

[waterski232002]

I think you handled that situation very well. Maybe I'm just a little old-fashioned though, but I think a much older man hitting on his female students and being somewhat "touchy-feely," is a much different dynamic then a recently divorced young women hitting on a student who is only slightly younger. I guess in your case, even though the attending was acting out of line, I feel a lot more sympathetic toward her since she was recently divorced and closer to your age.

That's funny you feel that way since all your posts indicate that "sexual harrassment" has nothing to do with gender or age, but everything to do with power, authority, professional conduct, and bias grading....

You seem to be contradicting yourself.... But do not misunderstand me--I was NOT sexually harrassed... I was merely put in a situation I was uncomfortable with, so I resolved the problem. It may have been unethical (professor-student relationship) or whatever, but that's life... deal with it... just remember to stick up for yourself. Others will respect you for it in the end.

I Agree with other's on this board who feel that people drop the ball way too fast these days to call things "sexual harrassment".

 

[Ice-1]

to ears: i'd absolutely love for your suggestion to be what ensued. however, as i mentioned in my first post, I did talk to the school informally, then when i tried to follow up i was informed that i basically had to make a formal complaint for anything at all to happen. I was not happy with this option. I realize that such a complaint is stigmatizing, and i am loathe to involve myself in such a process as well.

This was and is a horrible situation and i hope that no one else has to experience it.

It seems from the first statement that you have already made your choice not to file on this guy. Very well, that is your choice and your right. But it is disingenuous to state that you hope no one else will experience what you have. Since you are apparently unwilling to put a stop to it, rest assured that others after you will suffer the same unprofessional behavior as you have described from this same attending. Standing up is not easy and not a cakewalk, no one has ever said that it was. But it appears that you have passed the buck onto someone else in hopes that that person will do something about it.

 

[Trisomy13]

Kinetic, you are officially the sickest puppy on SDN

the sickest puppies are usually much quieter and do not seek the attention of others. i hope the original post is insincere, if only for kinetic's sense of compassion towards others' dilemmas.

just sayin'


regarding the original post, if you are legit, then he's out of line considering the power inequities in that proposition. whether he physically did anything is irrelevant. he put you in a position of deciding between a potential effect on your grades and doing something you would rather not. he should be aware why this is wrong, unacceptable, and in many academic and corporate institutions severely reprimanded.

 

[Mirror Form]

That's funny you feel that way since all your posts indicate that "sexual harrassment" has nothing to do with gender or age, but everything to do with power, authority, professional conduct, and bias grading....

I think gender and age can contribute to how malignant a series of unprofessional sexual advances can be, and they can also contribute to making the atmosphere even more hostile. It's not just a coincidence that younger women are usually the on the receiving end of sexual harrasment. Also, having power and authority over someone can obviously greatly contribute to sexual harrasment.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.... But do not misunderstand me--I was NOT sexually harrassed... I was merely put in a situation I was uncomfortable with, so I resolved the problem.

Way to go 🙄 I think it's pretty apparent that you were a lot less uncomfortable with your situation then the OP was with her situation; probably b/c your attending wasn't as bad. However, you seem to think that the OP's situation is exactly the same as yours. It's funny that I really didn't pick up much of a negative vibe in your description of your attending. Was she really making the work place that uncomfortable for you? Can you say the same thing for the OP's attending?

It may have been unethical (professor-student relationship) or whatever, but that's life... deal with it...

Good point, who cares if the attending just continues to hit on all of his female students and makes their rotations crappy? It's not her problem anymore. But then again, you're still stuck assuming that her situation is just a repeat of what happened to you. Sorry, but this thread isn't about you!

just remember to stick up for yourself. Others will respect you for it in the end.

In general, yes. But you don't know her attending. There are some vindictive people who might give somebody a bad eval for rejecting them. Just b/c your N=1 anecdotal experience wasn't that way, doesn't mean her attending would be the exact same.

I Agree with other's on this board who feel that people drop the ball way too fast these days to call things "sexual harrassment".

I agree, and I'm usually on the side that saying it's not sexual harrassment in these cases. But this attending deserves to be reprimanded. Whether this meets the court's definition of sexual harrassment is a moot point to me. His behavior was terrible regardless!

 

[esme]

to seaglass: I am an allopathic med student, and no, this was actually a major teaching hospital, not the university hospital, but a large affiliate, and this person was in charge of medical students often. unfortunately, this is not some old man in a small town who hasn't seen a woman for ten years. i wish i could say he was an 'aberration' of sorts....

the posters on this forum seem uncomfortable with the label of sexual harassment...it was my advisor, a physician of thirty some odd years who labeled the experience as such, not me, although now that he named it i can see that the experience clearly lives up to the title. This is not to say that I didn't experience it as harassing, but i didn't really know what to call it.

anyway, i appreciate all those who took me seriously in this post, because again, yes, i was/am very serious and this situation has not yet gone away for me.

 

[waterski232002]

I think gender and age can contribute to how malignant a series of unprofessional sexual advances can be, and they can also contribute to making the atmosphere even more hostile. It's not just a coincidence that younger women are usually the on the receiving end of sexual harrasment. Also, having power and authority over someone can obviously greatly contribute to sexual harrasment.



Way to go 🙄 I think it's pretty apparent that you were a lot less uncomfortable with your situation then the OP was with her situation; probably b/c your attending wasn't as bad. However, you seem to think that the OP's situation is exactly the same as yours. It's funny that I really didn't pick up much of a negative vibe in your description of your attending. Was she really making the work place that uncomfortable for you? Can you say the same thing for the OP's attending?


Good point, who cares if the attending just continues to hit on all of his female students and makes their rotations crappy? It's not her problem anymore. But then again, you're still stuck assuming that her situation is just a repeat of what happened to you. Sorry, but this thread isn't about you!

In general, yes. But you don't know her attending. There are some vindictive people who might give somebody a bad eval for rejecting them. Just b/c your N=1 anecdotal experience wasn't that way, doesn't mean her attending would be the exact same.



I agree, and I'm usually on the side that saying it's not sexual harrassment in these cases. But this attending deserves to be reprimanded. Whether this meets the court's definition of sexual harrassment is a moot point to me. His behavior was terrible regardless!

Sledge... you really need to calm down... I think your emotions are getting way too locked into this thread. Sorry if you disagree with my perspectives, but they are my opinions (as you have yours). I DO NOT, and NEVER SAID, that I thought the OPs situation was the same as mine. Every situation is different--I think we all realize that. I was just giving my personal situation and how I handled it to offer an additional case to learn from. There is no need to attack people for their opinions and perspectives on here--that IS what the OP asked for, remember????

Furthermore, I was merely extending the fact that many people (including yourself according to your prior posts) always state how sexual harassment is a NON-gender issue of power and authority... but then when I give an example of a female "harassing" a male (under your circumstances--NOT mine), gender becomes an issue (even though authority and power were abused), and you have no sympathy for the situation. What does AGE & GENDER have to do with it???

Either way, I don't really care. I will not belabor the point any further. I hope the OP will take little peices of advice from everyone here, and come up with her own plan of attack. Her situation is unique and should be treated that way.

And please STOP SAYING that her evaluator would give her bad grades if she did not go out with him.... As you so blatently pointed out to me-- "you don't know her attending" so STOP assuming YOU know how the attending would evaluate her!

 

[Soleilpie]

Esme, I truly feel for you. I had an instructor during my undergrad ask me out to dinner and I just played it off like he was just trying to be my buddy. So I said something like, "Oh, that would be great if all of us (meaning the class) could do lunch or something!" I think he at least figured out that I was not in the least bit interested in him romantically. I was fortunate that he at least waited until the end of the semester to ask me. The thing is, it was still awkward. Your situation is definitely on a different level than mine was. Your attending has clearly crossed the line and I'm sure he's aware of that..unless he's an FN ******. I wonder if he's done this with anyone else?