SGU August 2021 CFP

[Gambino.]

I think with any other country, the situation would still be the same. Canada with their CARMS prioritizes their own medical students over Canadians who went to the caribbeans. This is why we see Canadians matching into US residencies and then eventually transitioning back to Canada.

I agree it does suck, but also on the flip side, if they made it that far without any red flags, you only need one residency to say yes to you. Obv, if you were US MD/DO and made it that far w/o any red flags, it's a much easier process than coming back as an IMG.

I think people are delusional if they think SGU is significantly better than any of the other big 4. To be honest, if you're down in the caribbeans, there's not much of a difference. If you still have to apply to 100+, it doesn't make you any different than other IMGs.

The main benefit to AUS/Ireland/etc. I think they're arguing is that you can practice there as a worst case scenario as opposed to Carib where you can't and even if you could you'd be making a very paltry salary. The main benefit to big 3 is USCE which is what helps in the US match. The 120+ programs is what is recommended very strongly to us no matter the step score. A few extra thousand in application costs is worth it to guarantee a match and a 250 Step 1 with no red flags will definitely match into a primary care field from a big 3.

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[FutureDoctor5000]

The main benefit to AUS/Ireland/etc. I think they're arguing is that you can practice there as a worst case scenario as opposed to Carib where you can't and even if you could you'd be making a very paltry salary. The main benefit to big 3 is USCE which is what helps in the US match. The 120+ programs is what is recommended very strongly to us no matter the step score. A few extra thousand in application costs is worth it to guarantee a match and a 250 Step 1 with no red flags will definitely match into a primary care field from a big 3.

Yea but you realize the ridiculousness of that? Your essentially considered a 3rd class citizen even with a 250 step..

 

[Gambino.]

Yea but you realize the ridiculousness of that? Your essentially considered a 3rd class citizen even with a 250 step..

I mean anyone that went into IMG schooling without knowing they're always at a disadvantage is ignorant or too lazy to do research. I don't think it's ridiculous for US programs to prioritize US students and then US-IMGs come after. With all that being said the stats we have seen post-matriculation at Ross put 250 step at about a 100% match rate which despite application counts seems fair. It's much harder to finish school than it is to match looking at our statistics.

 

[8jsi37]

The main benefit to AUS/Ireland/etc. I think they're arguing is that you can practice there as a worst case scenario as opposed to Carib where you can't and even if you could you'd be making a very paltry salary. The main benefit to big 3 is USCE which is what helps in the US match. The 120+ programs is what is recommended very strongly to us no matter the step score. A few extra thousand in application costs is worth it to guarantee a match and a 250 Step 1 with no red flags will definitely match into a primary care field from a big 3.

Yeah pretty much this. AND theres a higher likelihood you'll make it out compared to the caribbeans. I agree that USCE is hard to get but there are literally programs you'll pay to do them. Do an observership or something. There are ways for you to get that without going to the caribbeans.

Yea but you realize the ridiculousness of that? Your essentially considered a 3rd class citizen even with a 250 step..

It is ridiculous. We all know how "perfect" the match system can be even towards AMGS. Pretty sure in the past, you've mentioned you're a DO. The match system is against DOs too, but obv a lot less compared to IMG. The data still heavily favors DOs in terms of the match. However, to ignore that there arent anything against DOs, that's a bit naive. We all know that the only ones who are matching at Harvard are prob top US MD students and 99% DOs and IMGs will almost never get a chance there. We even see this prior to the merger (and maybe after) where DOs have to take STEP on top of their COMLEX to match into academic programs? Why don't all programs just accept COMLEX? For IMGs, primary care is pretty friendly to them because a lot don't want to go into Primary care. There are a lot of IMG friendly residencies places that take either only IMGs and IMGs/DOs. I think you should also realize that a lot of IMGs/FMGs do end up making a big portion of the total residents in IM/FM/Peds. Until there is better compensation or better things in general for primary care, not many US AMGs will want to go into primary care when they can match into something that'll pay much better, thus leaving spots for IMGs to fill.

Let's be honest here, if you don't want to be treated as anything less, then make sure your app is US MD level. Going DO will put you at a disadvantage compared to the US MD counterparts and going IMG will put you in a worse situation compared to US MD/DO. US MD > US DO > US IMG > Non US IMG/FMG.

I mean anyone that went into IMG schooling without knowing they're always at a disadvantage is ignorant or too lazy to do research. I don't think it's ridiculous for US programs to prioritize US students and then US-IMGs come after. With all that being said the stats we have seen post-matriculation at Ross put 250 step at about a 100% match rate which despite application counts seems fair. It's much harder to finish school than it is to match looking at our statistics.

I highly doubt that everyone who goes to ross, sgu, etc know what is in store for them. If you were to ask me, about 80% are ignorant and believe that they still have the same "chances" at most specialties like AMGs. A lot of them are still aspiring derm, ortho bro, plastics, etc. It's kinda insane to see that AND to see that a lot of students DON'T know what it takes to match. They all trying to be president of the X Y Z specialty interest group, but in reality, the biggest determining factor rn is STEP 1 score. I think you're giving too much credit to these uninformed students. Btw 80% is pretty generous, if i had to really guess it'd be around 95%-97% who dont actually know what it takes to match. Some may be aware it's "harder" but don't fully understand the nuances when it comes to the match.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Yeah pretty much this. AND theres a higher likelihood you'll make it out compared to the caribbeans. I agree that USCE is hard to get but there are literally programs you'll pay to do them. Do an observership or something. There are ways for you to get that without going to the caribbeans.


It is ridiculous. We all know how "perfect" the match system can be even towards AMGS. Pretty sure in the past, you've mentioned you're a DO. The match system is against DOs too, but obv a lot less compared to IMG. The data still heavily favors DOs in terms of the match. However, to ignore that there arent anything against DOs, that's a bit naive. We all know that the only ones who are matching at Harvard are prob top US MD students and 99% DOs and IMGs will almost never get a chance there. We even see this prior to the merger (and maybe after) where DOs have to take STEP on top of their COMLEX to match into academic programs? Why don't all programs just accept COMLEX? For IMGs, primary care is pretty friendly to them because a lot don't want to go into Primary care. There are a lot of IMG friendly residencies places that take either only IMGs and IMGs/DOs. I think you should also realize that a lot of IMGs/FMGs do end up making a big portion of the total residents in IM/FM/Peds. Until there is better compensation or better things in general for primary care, not many US AMGs will want to go into primary care when they can match into something that'll pay much better, thus leaving spots for IMGs to fill.

Let's be honest here, if you don't want to be treated as anything less, then make sure your app is US MD level. Going DO will put you at a disadvantage compared to the US MD counterparts and going IMG will put you in a worse situation compared to US MD/DO. US MD > US DO > US IMG > Non US IMG/FMG.


I highly doubt that everyone who goes to ross, sgu, etc know what is in store for them. If you were to ask me, about 80% are ignorant and believe that they still have the same "chances" at most specialties like AMGs. A lot of them are still aspiring derm, ortho bro, plastics, etc. It's kinda insane to see that AND to see that a lot of students DON'T know what it takes to match. They all trying to be president of the X Y Z specialty interest group, but in reality, the biggest determining factor rn is STEP 1 score. I think you're giving too much credit to these uninformed students. Btw 80% is pretty generous, if i had to really guess it'd be around 95%-97% who dont actually know what it takes to match. Some may be aware it's "harder" but don't fully understand the nuances when it comes to the match.

You are right USMD is desirable to DO, but there are many academic programs that in fact do take comlex, these same academic programs very very rarely even interview Carib IMG’s(In something like IM). I mean there are DO’s at Dartmouth and Brown, Yale IM, and several other strong academic programs, they were good candidates no doubt, but good candidates from Carib are often still relegated to very low tier programs and malignant programs. There are coastal top 20-25 programs that won’t take DO and other few like UAB or Vandy but outside of that there isn’t any NO DO sentiment, but the anti Carib sentiment is rampant even among many lower tier programs in something like IM where they very seldom will even rank an IMG

 

[8jsi37]

You are right USMD is desirable to DO, but there are many academic programs that in fact do take comlex, these same academic programs very very rarely even interview Carib IMG’s(In something like IM). I mean there are DO’s at Dartmouth and Brown, Yale IM, and several other strong academic programs, they were good candidates no doubt, but good candidates from Carib are often still relegated to very low tier programs and malignant programs. There are coastal top 20-25 programs that won’t take DO and other few like UAB or Vandy but outside of that there isn’t any NO DO sentiment, but the anti Carib sentiment is rampant even among many lower tier programs in something like IM where they very seldom will even rank an IMG

I never disagreed with you. Maybe my stance wasn't clear, but it was that US MD does not get "stigmatized" while US DO and IMGs do. I wasn't arguing that IMG gets it less than DOs. Actually, I even stated US MD> US DO > IMG/FMG in my last statement. All I'm saying is that if you don't want to be in any "stigma" then go US MD as that'll open the path to literally almost everything without much effort. However, the same cannot be said with DO and IMGs. If we go beyond primary care and into the more competitive specialties, the gap starts to widen between US MD and DO/IMG. A lot of those are US MD favored.

Even if they get relegated to those low tier programs, they still are physicians after the 3 years of IM/FM. You still get paid the same, equal licensing practices, etc. I cant comment too much on the malignant programs tho. Obv this is contingent on only general IM/FM. If you want to subspecialize in IM, that's a different discussion in itself. At the end of the day, i think everyone who is trying to match all shares a common goal.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I never disagreed with you. Maybe my stance wasn't clear, but it was that US MD does not get "stigmatized" while US DO and IMGs do. I wasn't arguing that IMG gets it less than DOs. Actually, I even stated US MD> US DO > IMG/FMG in my last statement. All I'm saying is that if you don't want to be in any "stigma" then go US MD as that'll open the path to literally almost everything without much effort. However, the same cannot be said with DO and IMGs. If we go beyond primary care and into the more competitive specialties, the gap starts to widen between US MD and DO/IMG. A lot of those are US MD favored.

Even if they get relegated to those low tier programs, they still are physicians after the 3 years of IM/FM. You still get paid the same, equal licensing practices, etc. I cant comment too much on the malignant programs tho. Obv this is contingent on only general IM/FM. If you want to subspecialize in IM, that's a different discussion in itself. At the end of the day, i think everyone who is trying to match all shares a common goal.

You are right there is a gap for competitive specialties between USDO and USMD, but it absolutely pales in comparison to IMG’s like it’s not even in the same stratosphere. Like 119 DO’s matched Ortho last year compared to like 2? USIMG, that’s an astronomical gap. Even for a smaller field like derm 42 DO’s matched derm compared to 1 or 2 USIMG? Same for stuff like uro, ent. Only in like plastics is it simmilar. Keep in mind the total number of USIMG is simmilar to USDO in the match. Now granted this is mostly due to former AOA programs making it to ACGME accreditation and ACGME programs in hyper competitive stuff is hard for DO’s but even then I am willing to bet the DO number was higher than the Carib IMG number. Your chances at something competitive is much higher from a USDO school than an USIMG school, if the end goal is to do something even mildly competitive USDO is a way more viable option than Carib. The gap between USMD and USDO really isn’t that high. There was a study done that showed that even in competitive stuff a simmilar % or DO’s matched to USMD all things considered, especially if you had a app on par for that specialty, now granted it was at aoa programs but there are no “AOA” programs for IMG’s to fall back on…

 

[8jsi37]

You are right there is a gap for competitive specialties between USDO and USMD, but it absolutely pales in comparison to IMG’s like it’s not even in the same stratosphere. Like 119 DO’s matched Ortho last year compared to like 2? USIMG, that’s an astronomical gap. Even for a smaller field like derm 42 DO’s matched derm compared to 1 or 2 USIMG? Same for stuff like uro, ent. Only in like plastics is it simmilar. Keep in mind the total number of USIMG is simmilar to USDO in the match. Now granted this is mostly due to former AOA programs making it to ACGME accreditation and ACGME programs in hyper competitive stuff is hard for DO’s but even then I am willing to bet the DO number was higher than the Carib IMG number. Your chances at something competitive is much higher from a USDO school than an USIMG school, if the end goal is to do something even mildly competitive USDO is a way more viable option than Carib. The gap between USMD and USDO really isn’t that high. There was a study done that showed that even in competitive stuff a simmilar % or DO’s matched to USMD all things considered, especially if you had a app on par for that specialty, now granted it was at aoa programs but there are no “AOA” programs for IMG’s to fall back on…

Again, like i mentioned, I never disagreed with you. I already stated that I agreed that DO has a better match overall. Is there something you're not getting here? Here it is again: "Maybe my stance wasn't clear, but it was that US MD does not get "stigmatized" while US DO and IMGs do". We need to talk about overall picture rather than just one selective point. You'd be delusional if you think DOs don't get stigmatized by others in the country across all fields. My stance was that. US MD should always be your first option as it opens the most doors. Again, in case you don't understand, I already agreed with the fact DOs have a better match rate overall, thus my stance and also my rankings where i put DO > IMGs. If you still don't get that, then idk what else to say because I made it very clear at this point.

Pretty much if you go to the caribbeans, you should already be fine with primary care or something that isnt hyper competitive. If not, you're delusional af. The majority will match into primary care and the type of residencies is mostly community programs. Like i said, at the end of the day, as a IM/FM physician, person A going to T10 IM vs person B going to a local community IM, both will get paid the same if they are both offered jobs. Both are still board certified and licensed. News flash, not all community programs that IMGs match into are malignant. A LOT of those are in NY, but there are a lot others that are super supportive. Moving on, HR wants to see if you have the credentials to practice. If your goal is to get into the best possible residency, then go US MD > US DO then nothing else. But if your goal is to practice as a physician and help patients then apply US MD & US DO for at least 2-3 years then if you cant, do the IMG route if you're still dedicated (could be carib but other routes like UQ-oschner, etc work too). In 20 years, no one will care that you trained at T10 vs a community program. Patients just want to know if you can help them.

Again, in case i gotta reiterate again, US DO > IMGs in literally every aspect of the match.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Again, like i mentioned, I never disagreed with you. I already stated that I agreed that DO has a better match overall. Is there something you're not getting here? Here it is again: "Maybe my stance wasn't clear, but it was that US MD does not get "stigmatized" while US DO and IMGs do". We need to talk about overall picture rather than just one selective point. You'd be delusional if you think DOs don't get stigmatized by others in the country across all fields. My stance was that. US MD should always be your first option as it opens the most doors. Again, in case you don't understand, I already agreed with the fact DOs have a better match rate overall, thus my stance and also my rankings where i put DO > IMGs. If you still don't get that, then idk what else to say because I made it very clear at this point.

Pretty much if you go to the caribbeans, you should already be fine with primary care or something that isnt hyper competitive. If not, you're delusional af. The majority will match into primary care and the type of residencies is mostly community programs. Like i said, at the end of the day, as a IM/FM physician, person A going to T10 IM vs person B going to a local community IM, both will get paid the same if they are both offered jobs. Both are still board certified and licensed. News flash, not all community programs that IMGs match into are malignant. A LOT of those are in NY, but there are a lot others that are super supportive. Moving on, HR wants to see if you have the credentials to practice. If your goal is to get into the best possible residency, then go US MD > US DO then nothing else. But if your goal is to practice as a physician and help patients then apply US MD & US DO for at least 2-3 years then if you cant, do the IMG route if you're still dedicated (could be carib but other routes like UQ-oschner, etc work too). In 20 years, no one will care that you trained at T10 vs a community program. Patients just want to know if you can help them.

Again, in case i gotta reiterate again, US DO > IMGs in literally every aspect of the match.

Agree with you, but one point I don’t understand is how is it not advantageous for your career to go to a well known University program, of even say a state MD school vs a community program? In terms of fellowship I would think the former is significantly better? Even for job prospects wouldn’t the former open more doors or does it really not matter?

 

[future_doctor_2019]

I was recently accepted into SGU August CFP. Is there anyone else joining this class?

did you end up starting SGU in august? and if so, how do you feel about the accreditation status and how has the first semester been for you

 

[gyngyn]

did you end up starting SGU in august? and if so, how do you feel about the accreditation status and how has the first semester been for you

That account has been deleted and cannot respond.